Post by: Phantom Gobbler on March 31, 2010, 11:25:20 PM
Total Number of Spring Birds harvested in Washington State dropped from 5302 in 2007 to 4082 in 2008. Is this reduction (of 1220 bearded birds) solely due to the severe winter conditions of two years ago? This is the first significant decrease in birds harvested (in the NE) since 1996.
What will the harvest numbers look like for the 2009 season? Since we had another long winter with high levels of snow accumulation?
Post by: Diehard0123 on April 01, 2010, 12:04:46 AM
Post by: littlemac on April 01, 2010, 12:51:40 AM
I must agree that a good portion of it could definitely be the economy last year. We may see a bit of a lift this year with gas prices remaining reasonable and people having adjusted to their current incomes.
Too bad turkey season comes with tax season too, really stings to shell out for property tax and income tax, it definitely effects my retail business for a couple of months as people work through tax time.
Post by: yelp on April 01, 2010, 07:22:18 AM
Other possibilities could be poor hatch, high predation, lousy hunters (no offense), global warming..hippies(no offense) eating turkey all year, not sure. I plan on trying to my part to ass to the harvest.. :chuckle:
Post by: Wacenturion on April 01, 2010, 09:18:00 AM
It may be the cumulative effects of generalizing fall seasons. Killing the factory will have an effect over time.. Merriams are the most resilient species in my book. When hens get killed they can't produce poults (males and females). 2008 winter would effect 2009 birds, as far as winter kill. 2007 winter was mild for the most part. IMO Success rates have increased..but level off somewhat. Fall hunting turkey compared to spring is easy..IMO. The WDFW is using fall seasons as population control.
Other possibilities could be poor hatch, high predation, lousy hunters (no offense), global warming..hippies(no offense) eating turkey all year, not sure. I plan on trying to my part to ass to the harvest.. :chuckle:
You got it!
Want to know what an individual turkey hunter can do management wise to help our wild turkeys...................don't buy into WDFW's bulls*** fall harvest management crap. Way too liberal..........if someone kills three hens in the fall, someone in the spring is potentially going birdless. Just say NO! Make it your personal ethic to take toms only in the fall.
Might also consider not taking multiple birds in the same spot during the spring season. It's your resource...enjoy it and protect for those coming after you. :twocents:
Post by: fishunt247 on April 01, 2010, 10:11:42 AM
Quote
Want to know what an individual turkey hunter can do management wise to help our wild turkeys...................don't buy into WDFW's bulls*** fall harvest management crap. Way too liberal..........if someone kills three hens in the fall, someone in the spring is potentially going birdless. Just say NO!
This is perfect. A better management plan would be to transplant the excess birds into areas of the state that could use the boost in new blood. Every Merriam county in the state could use the explosion/burst that happens when new blood is introduced. Too logical and "too much work" for the WDFW though.
A lot of it, like diehard said, could be do to less people being in the woods. I saw three people hunting last year, and have seen maybe 6 in the last 3 years combined. Thank god there is no more free turkey tag...those days were unreal.
I'm kind of suprised the numbers dropped off that much. Last year was a banner spring (at least for me), and with the number of jakes called in last spring, I expect this one to be good as well.
Predator numbers have increased everywhere (cougars, bobcats, coyotes) and they will have a significant effect, especially on nests and wintering birds.
Post by: baldopepper on April 01, 2010, 10:34:16 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on April 01, 2010, 11:15:31 AM
I can only speak of the area where I'm at, the Hunters/Cedonia area, but I don't think the actual "kill" on the fall/winter hunt truly reflects the harm to the flocks. The birds are bunched up (very much so for the late hunt) and are chased out of the limited feeding areas they have on a daily basis. Kind of tough on them to go into a harsh winter when they are already under nourished. I spoke with the WDFW people the last two years and warned them that populations were down quite dramitically in the area (I spend a great deal of my time over there and keep a pretty close eye on the turkeys) but they seemed confident that the flocks could use thinning. I know that this is based to a large part on land owner complaints, keeping in mind that many of the farmers in area refer to turkeys as "winged rats". They also inform me that trapping is not doable as they really have no more areas in the state that merit anymore transplanting. Numbers look pretty good over there this year, but I think they are still down a fair amount from 3 years ago.
WDFW is full of crap.........tons of areas to put trapped birds into....Klickitat, Chelan Kittitas,Yakima, Okanogan for one. They just don't want to do it. Back in the 90's WDFW did take care of those landowners and trapped excess birds and released them into other counties until 1999. At that time powers to be within WDFW, Wildlife Management to be exact, took over that program and essentially eliminated it. That's what actually happened.
By doing so, Wildlife Management created a backed up toilet in the NE by abandoning landowners with nuisance problems by not trapping. Their excuse was that there was no place to release birds...a convenient lie. Then they started liberalizing fall seasons to kill excess birds. If some in WDFW could eliminate every turkey they would do so. The more problems they can attribute to turkeys the easier it is to promote their agenda of getting rid of them.
Wildlife Management is the biggest problem we as sportsman face. Those who make decisions about game species and seasons should at least at the top be replaced. Just what have they done that benefits us in the last 20 years. Less opportunity overall, wolves, state of the art permit systems and on and on? Turkeys however are excluded from the list....because they didn't do that, another division did.
Post by: Wacenturion on April 01, 2010, 11:19:19 AM
Just another crowning achievement from WDFW's Wildlife Management ..........free taggers. I agree......thank God big time. Really promoted the sport .....huh. :bash:
Post by: fishunt247 on April 01, 2010, 05:17:38 PM
And yes, as Wacent mentioned, all of those places (and the people that hunt them) would gladly accept excess birds. With the help of local NWTF chapters, birds were transplanted there, and some of those populations are doing quite well. They still could use a boost. What a shame it would be to have great populations like we have in the NE in all of the other Merriam's counties as well, right? There is no revenue in that for the WDFW, so they quickly stopped doing it.
Good point on running wintering flocks around. They take pretty decent measures to protect wintering elk (the real revenue maker for them), but they don't care about turkeys. But still, for every hen killed, you have to think about the broods she could have had for the next few springs.
Post by: Wacenturion on April 01, 2010, 06:25:47 PM
fishunt247.......On to your comment and the larger problem................Turkeys are indeed a money maker, not just for WDFW but also the state's economy. Too bad WDFW can't figure that one out. Its the state stupid, not your po dunk agency. If they would simply put back a good share of the profits to the programs that generated them to continue to grow the program and use the remainder to grow others.....oh... I forgot....that's too freak-in simply for those idiots to figure out. :bash:
Its so simple it's pathetic. Some history (from a WDFW report).....................
"Prior to turkey augmentation activity in the late 1980s, hunter numbers fell to a low of 428 (1987) and turkey harvests averaged 65-birds/ year (1983-1987)."
So now we are harvesting 4082 birds in 08' and 5137 and 5302 respectively in 06' and 07'. Hunter numbers or lets say tags sold are probably in the 35,000 to 40,000 range figuring a 10% success rate, which is generous. Usually it runs about 15% success, so tag sales are probably closer to the upper number.
Considering WSDFW had virtually no income off of turkeys in the mid to late 80's, you would think some reinvestment of profits for the turkey program and other game programs was in order. Hell of a way to run a business....that folks is the problem. That does not even take into account all the additional revenue generated in state to stores like Cabelas and others, guide services, motels, resturants, gas stations, and on and on. Sad but true. WDFW has people running things that by all intents and purposes are probably related to and have the IQ of Pelosi and Reed.
Post by: Tom Tamer on April 01, 2010, 07:32:49 PM
:yeah:I can only speak of the area where I'm at, the Hunters/Cedonia area, but I don't think the actual "kill" on the fall/winter hunt truly reflects the harm to the flocks. The birds are bunched up (very much so for the late hunt) and are chased out of the limited feeding areas they have on a daily basis. Kind of tough on them to go into a harsh winter when they are already under nourished. I spoke with the WDFW people the last two years and warned them that populations were down quite dramitically in the area (I spend a great deal of my time over there and keep a pretty close eye on the turkeys) but they seemed confident that the flocks could use thinning. I know that this is based to a large part on land owner complaints, keeping in mind that many of the farmers in area refer to turkeys as "winged rats". They also inform me that trapping is not doable as they really have no more areas in the state that merit anymore transplanting. Numbers look pretty good over there this year, but I think they are still down a fair amount from 3 years ago.
WDFW is full of crap.........tons of areas to put trapped birds into....Klickitat, Chelan Kittitas,Yakima, Okanogan for one. They just don't want to do it. Back in the 90's WDFW did take care of those landowners and trapped excess birds and released them into other counties until 1999. At that time powers to be within WDFW, Wildlife Management to be exact, took over that program and essentially eliminated it. That's what actually happened.
By doing so, Wildlife Management created a backed up toilet in the NE by abandoning landowners with nuisance problems by not trapping. Their excuse was that there was no place to release birds...a convenient lie. Then they started liberalizing fall seasons to kill excess birds. If some in WDFW could eliminate every turkey they would do so. The more problems they can attribute to turkeys the easier it is to promote their agenda of getting rid of them.
Wildlife Management is the biggest problem we as sportsman face. Those who make decisions about game species and seasons should at least at the top be replaced. Just what have they done that benefits us in the last 20 years. Less opportunity overall, wolves, state of the art permit systems and on and on? Turkeys however are excluded from the list....because they didn't do that, another division did.
And those in the NWTF, We are beating the drum of transplanting but the WDFW will have nothing to do with it. But beleive me we( NWTF volunteers) are not going to quit, we will be doing more and more habitat enhancements and working hard with landowners now to eliminate the over population birds. But we could use more help, get out and talk with landowners that there is help and most of it would be free to them, through grants from the NWTF w can do many things, from oat hay bales to keep flocks out of their feed. We can giv out hay nets and are doing some plantings of buffer zones to teach the birds where they can get easy food in the winter while keeping them out of the farmers feed lots.
Post by: Wacenturion on April 01, 2010, 07:41:17 PM
40,000 turkey tags (now being sold) minus 428 turkey tags ( sold in 1987) = 39,572 tags X $15.00 = $593,580. A mere pittance. :twocents:
Post by: yelp on April 01, 2010, 08:18:38 PM
:yeah:I can only speak of the area where I'm at, the Hunters/Cedonia area, but I don't think the actual "kill" on the fall/winter hunt truly reflects the harm to the flocks. The birds are bunched up (very much so for the late hunt) and are chased out of the limited feeding areas they have on a daily basis. Kind of tough on them to go into a harsh winter when they are already under nourished. I spoke with the WDFW people the last two years and warned them that populations were down quite dramitically in the area (I spend a great deal of my time over there and keep a pretty close eye on the turkeys) but they seemed confident that the flocks could use thinning. I know that this is based to a large part on land owner complaints, keeping in mind that many of the farmers in area refer to turkeys as "winged rats". They also inform me that trapping is not doable as they really have no more areas in the state that merit anymore transplanting. Numbers look pretty good over there this year, but I think they are still down a fair amount from 3 years ago.
WDFW is full of crap.........tons of areas to put trapped birds into....Klickitat, Chelan Kittitas,Yakima, Okanogan for one. They just don't want to do it. Back in the 90's WDFW did take care of those landowners and trapped excess birds and released them into other counties until 1999. At that time powers to be within WDFW, Wildlife Management to be exact, took over that program and essentially eliminated it. That's what actually happened.
By doing so, Wildlife Management created a backed up toilet in the NE by abandoning landowners with nuisance problems by not trapping. Their excuse was that there was no place to release birds...a convenient lie. Then they started liberalizing fall seasons to kill excess birds. If some in WDFW could eliminate every turkey they would do so. The more problems they can attribute to turkeys the easier it is to promote their agenda of getting rid of them.
Wildlife Management is the biggest problem we as sportsman face. Those who make decisions about game species and seasons should at least at the top be replaced. Just what have they done that benefits us in the last 20 years. Less opportunity overall, wolves, state of the art permit systems and on and on? Turkeys however are excluded from the list....because they didn't do that, another division did.
And those in the NWTF, We are beating the drum of transplanting but the WDFW will have nothing to do with it. But beleive me we( NWTF volunteers) are not going to quit, we will be doing more and more habitat enhancements and working hard with landowners now to eliminate the over population birds. But we could use more help, get out and talk with landowners that there is help and most of it would be free to them, through grants from the NWTF w can do many things, from oat hay bales to keep flocks out of their feed. We can giv out hay nets and are doing some plantings of buffer zones to teach the birds where they can get easy food in the winter while keeping them out of the farmers feed lots.
I suggest more educational material to handout to landowners about damage and feeding issues. For example..A simple switch from Oat hay to Barley hay will reduce turkey problems. Have handouts at feed stores and other areas that local landowners frequent.
Using Farm bill programs with local conservation districts, and NRCS offices to get funding for wildlife projects.
Buffers must be large enough to produce enough of an incentive and attractiveness to be effective. Paying landowners to leave parts of crops (field edges/strips) an easy and affordable way to create areas that will attract wildlife to assist with damages.
Hay nets have worked great too. :twocents:
Post by: Hangfire on April 01, 2010, 10:13:40 PM
The 08/09 winter gave 105.775 inches of snow fromNovember into April with traces of snow into June. Spokane had the all time snow amount for a winter.
During both winters the wildlife kill was more than normal. Part of the problem was animals on roads, hit by cars and shot by people for what ever reason. Heavy snow makes more vulnerable to predators.
The 09/10 winter has put 24.3 inches of snow through today (we are to get snow to night). This may be the all time least snow winter on record, for Spokane.
The last two springs has had periods of rain at hatch time, impact? What I observed last year was the average clutch size was 4-6 birds per hen when about a month old.
This area has almost no hunting pressure during the fall season. The local wildlife agent said they can't get people to hunt the fall birds. I see almost no people hunting turkeys in the fall.
Post by: PA BEN on April 02, 2010, 06:07:30 AM
Post by: yelp on April 02, 2010, 07:14:26 AM
My Dads a wheat farmer, at harvest time the turkeys have eaten 30 to 40 ft edge around his fields. Every head of wheat gone, that's money out of his pocket. As far as Oat hay vs barley hay, go tell a beef rancher that and see what kind of answer you get. I'm not trying to bust anybody out on this but it's not that ez.
Your correct PABEN, The beef growers would have an issue with that. I know the dairy farmers however have seen a difference with a reduced amount of hay bales that they see scratched apart. Wild Turkeys are opportunistic feeders, but so are other wildlife. I have seen wheat field edges in particular get hammered by deer as well as turkeys..so if they are going to get hammered because it is along the edge of habitat..which is why they see the damage in these parts..I say you do some work in this area to either plant more habitat, recrop, or utilize some type of compensation for damages caused..I would prefer these ideas than an enforcement officer simply using a kill permit to make a landowner happy. That is why I said what I said. I know it isn't a simple issue. Some people have different ideas..like planting oak trees, etc..You know how many oak trees you would have to plant in NE WA for there to make a difference...millions, and it would take years before enough mast would even be available. I would rather pay a landowner to leave a strip here and there for wildlife, where you can. Even the hay fields..leave a strip..Just some ideas I have. :twocents: As a landowner and a local up there what suggestions would you have to reduce damage to hay or crop operations?
Post by: baldopepper on April 02, 2010, 08:13:00 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on April 02, 2010, 08:25:48 AM
However when you abandon the landowner who is an intregal part of the resource/recreation triangle(agency, sportsman and landowner), you essentially create problems. They get pissed because they are trying to make a living and don't have the skills or time to mess with wildlife. Then figure in that no one seems to get a rats ass about the problem and it goes nuclear.....turkeys become much worse than they are. Not a good formula for success.
Again, these problems are caused by the politically correct direction of WDFW. That agency for the most part avoids any physical management, rather opting for think tank operations....meetings and speculations of why things can't be done. If you think I'm exaggerating, then look at an organization chart and tell me who, and in what numbers of staff are actually in place doing on the ground enhancements. Don't count most biologists on the ground taking surveys, talking and making excuses, without having any equipment....like tractors, tillers, etc. Don't count in the wildlife areas managers...they have no budgets and are sadly custodians without the resources to do anything. There are only a few....a handful. So just how do you actually think they are managing wildlife. They're not. What you will find though is a abundance of "chiefs", those in management positions, going to meetings their entire careers. Enough said....you get my drift.
The "safe" ground for most biologists is rhetoric. They don't have put their money where their mouth is. Talk is cheap.....the reason for this, the reason for that. bla, bla, bla. Just so much baloney. Those landowners have every right to expect more..............and so do you. :twocents:
Post by: Wacenturion on April 02, 2010, 08:42:26 AM
PABEN is correct in saying it is a difficult situation-It's been a problem with all wildlife for the over 50 years I've been hunting. I believe that farming and ranching is a damn tough way to scratch out a living and landowners should be compensated for wildlife damage or reimbursed for enhancing wildlife habitat. My only catch to that, is that they must allow some public hunting to receive it. I know several large landowners who complain about wildlife losses as they stand behind their NO TRESPASSING sign. Hunting is, as we all know, one of the wildlife management tools and to ask to be compensated with no public hunting is asking for a meal without paying. I'm not advocating throwing your property open to any and all comers, but at least some limited accsess is a must before any compensation should be handed out.
Baldopepper.............You're absolutely correct, and as a matter of reference, WDFW did indeed have a program that did just that in the 90's. It is still in place but has been essentially scaled back to a level that cannot do what it was intended to do. Used to have 21 staff....now 5 or 6. It offered assistance...i.e. habitat plantings, food plots, payments for various enhancements, access signing, bird releases (turkeys), and many other things in exchange for some form of public access....such as "Feel Free To Hunt", Hunt By Written Permission", Register To Hunt" etc. Full staffing in rural locations with full compliment of tractors, trailer, tillers, trap and transfer equipment...whatever was needed to get the job done. Landowners were the #1 priority, to the benefit of wildlife and the sportsman. Too simple huh.
WDFW didn't think this was a priority when it reorganized it into it's Wildlife Management Division in late 1999 after which they scaled it back opting to do other things............LIKE HIRE MORE UPPER LEVEL STAFF TO GO TO MORE FREAKIN MEANINGLESS MEETINGS! :bash:
Just so you all know, that program before it absorbed by Wildlife Management made turkeys happen, in spite of Wildlife Management. Fact.
Ever wonder why the turkey faucet turned off....yep your buddies in Wildlife Management. Apparently they are too busy with other priorities like....new big game permit drawing systems etc.....time well spent huh? >:(
Post by: Tom Tamer on April 02, 2010, 03:51:49 PM
PABEN is correct in saying it is a difficult situation-It's been a problem with all wildlife for the over 50 years I've been hunting. I believe that farming and ranching is a damn tough way to scratch out a living and landowners should be compensated for wildlife damage or reimbursed for enhancing wildlife habitat. My only catch to that, is that they must allow some public hunting to receive it. I know several large landowners who complain about wildlife losses as they stand behind their NO TRESPASSING sign. Hunting is, as we all know, one of the wildlife management tools and to ask to be compensated with no public hunting is asking for a meal without paying. I'm not advocating throwing your property open to any and all comers, but at least some limited accsess is a must before any compensation should be handed out.
In some of the instances we are doing just that and gearing it toward youth hunters, that has been helping. as far as the buffer areas, we are with the Bio studying using native plants along with some hybrids that can withstand our climates.
PABEN and any body that has those issues please contact Kurt Beckley the NWTF State President and I assure you he will do what he can to help. Kurt.beckley@yahoo.com
Post by: Wacenturion on April 02, 2010, 07:03:57 PM
The small chapter type habitat project is a feel good exercise. It gets people together, it sounds good, it give the local chapter, state chapter and National Organization statistics that look good in print. However in reality unless there is a full time directed effort with full time staff with the right equipment doing full time habitat enhancement work in numerous areas, while at the same time maintaining it.....it does very little in benefiting or attracting turkeys away from damage sites. Sorry.........just being realistic.
Oh, and if a biologist speaks in terms of native plant species, that sends up a red flag with me. Nothing wrong with native plants depending on what they are and what they return for the effort, but there are a lot of non native plants that are more beneficial and pose no adverse threat to anything. I call that "politically correct" management. Is that bio even aware that turkeys are not native....I'll stop there...just one of my pet peeves.
Post by: Tom Tamer on April 02, 2010, 10:09:13 PM
While again it's on a small scale......Oak grows from an Acorn. Starting small is al least starting. And may be more than a feel good, it can show landowners that we are serious about helping them while helping turkeys and that we're willing to do more than just beg to hunt their land. We can't get big scale with out starting somewhere and can't get started at all from the sidelines :twocents:
Post by: yelp on April 03, 2010, 07:57:40 AM
While ys it is somewhat small in scale and it's not just planting Oaks, while I don't know all by name or can remember the Oak hybrid we look at are doing fine in place in Spokane right now and being a hybrid they have half the growth time of a normal Oak. But it's not just Oak, choke cherry and other winter mast and fruit bearing shrubs are being implementd along with cover foilage and with that granted it takes some time but the process isn't just planting. Effective uses of various hazing to get the Turkeys to use those areas rather than the feed lot are being practiced.
While again it's on a small scale......Oak grows from an Acorn. Starting small is al least starting. And may be more than a feel good, it can show landowners that we are serious about helping them while helping turkeys and that we're willing to do more than just beg to hunt their land. We can't get big scale with out starting somewhere and can't get started at all from the sidelines :twocents:
TAMER..
My Opinion on this matter..no offense meant.
As a NWTF member and a past state and local NWTF chapter president, I applaud you for the efforts with this matter. Very tough issue. On a local site by site basis small projects may have some impact that show landowners that we care. I suggest Wild turkey hazing and EDUCATION may work better than these small habitat projects. HABITAT Projects .. In my opinion paying landowners to leave crops that turkeys frequent (OAT HAY FIELDS), PRESCRIBED BURNING can help create quality native plants available at different times of the year and possibly cost the NWTF less than establishing buffers that have the same overall benefits.
QUESTIONS TO ASK WA NWTF BIO...Turkey diets require lots of food. MAST...HOW MANY ACORNS or choke cherries WILL A WILD TURKEY EAT PER DAY? (X) LOCAL TURKEY POPULATIONS...
I am going to make it as simple as I can...An example...Knowing turkeys the way I know them and habitat..OVERALL FOCUS/OBJECTIVE..To plant habitat that is attractive to Wild Turkeys to draw them away from a problem area..right? So NWTF will convince a landowner that they have an idea to haze wild turkeys and plant lots of hybrid oak trees, choke cherry and others..that will reduce damage and draw turkeys away from his oat bales they are currently scratching apart?(common problem in the NE).
Creating buffers...What you are doing in biological terms is creating edge. There are several ways to create it. Again in my opinion..the easiest way and the most effective way to deal with this problem.. by leaving field edges (where wildlife feels secure to frequent) 100' out or maybe whole field and pay the landowner to leave it, pay for him to seed it every year. Make it worth his time. You could purchase OAT HAY from another source to replace what the strip normally produced..bale wise or what landowner uses needs?
Oak trees even hybrids will take a few years to produce some acorns..right? So I would make sure that the landowners understand it isn't an immediate fix. The wild turkeys that frequent the area will still seek out the oats period. IT IS THE EASIEST EFFORT FOR THE HIGHEST REWARD!
Understand..that efforts in the past netting, trap and transfer..worked. Again not being critical, but realize that there are several ways to skin a cat.
My two cents on the matter eventhough they are from the sidelines..I have donated 12 years to the NWTF and lots of time and money more than you know.
Post by: Wacenturion on April 03, 2010, 08:38:25 AM
Oak species and weather
About 70 oak species occur within the United States. These species are classified in groups as either "White Oaks" or "Red Oaks", based on their flowering biology and the time required to produce mature acorns. Common species in the "White Oak" group include: white oak ( Quercus alba ), swamp white oak ( Q. bicolor ), burr oak ( Q. macrocarpa ), overcup oak ( Q. lyrata ), post oak ( Q. stellata ), chestnut oak ( Q. prinus ), and chinkapin oak ( Q. muehlenbergii ). Common species in the "Red Oak" group include: northern red oak ( Q. rubra ), southern red oak ( Q. falcata ), black oak ( Q. velutina ), pin oak ( Q. palustris ), scarlet oak ( Q. coccinea ), and blackjack oak ( Q. marilandica ).
Oak species vary in the age at which they produce their first acorn crop, the age and diameter at which they produce their largest crops, and how often they produce abundant crops (Table 2). In general, most oak species produce their first crop of acorns when the trees are 20 to 25 years old. They produce their largest crops when they are between 50 and 200 years old and when they are greater than 20 inches in diameter. On average, most oak species produce an abundant acorn crop once every three to five years.
Post by: Wacenturion on April 03, 2010, 08:46:08 AM
Again there are some positive benefits, like going to banquets and being with and meeting new friends...having a good time. So are habitat projects where folks come together for a common cause.
However...........what both really do for wild turkeys overall is questionable in my opinion. But that's a whole other story.
Post by: Wacenturion on April 03, 2010, 08:57:58 AM
"The wild turkeys that frequent the area will still seek out the oats period. IT IS THE EASIEST EFFORT FOR THE HIGHEST REWARD!"
Kind of like the path of least resistance. In winter time conditions, wildlife in general are going to utilize the food source with the biggest bang for the buck. It's all about conserving energy and calories. You could have tons of native species, that will be used, but in times of extremes the birds will bypass them for an easier food target. One that requires less effort to get and uses less energy to actually consume it.
On a sidenote..............there are lots of native food bearing plants that already exist in these nuisance areas................that's why we have nuisance problems....the habitat is excellent. Does that obviously shed some light on the issue? Think on that one for awhile....kind of like a what came first "chicken or egg" debate. Just food for thought........pun intended. :chuckle:
Post by: Tom Tamer on April 03, 2010, 12:13:38 PM
Yelp and Wacent I do truly value both your opinions and am not taking any offense to these threads, I think the way we have had these in the past while may be rehashing some things, are positive. I fear if we( The People) Not just the NWTF don't keep vigilant on this the WDFW would let the turkeys go by the way side. And while I am now complete and udder Turkeynut....I also see it in my Daughter 8, and that's where my drive to help these birds lie. And I'm open to any suggstions as to what to do. As far as the NWTF is concerned I wonder how much of paying the landowners to grow crops directly for the turkeys would cost us annually. It may have to be a route we persue, case by case basis.
I do agree that all animals are going to go after the easy food everytime, it's nature, but I think hazing and if we could get some hunters, albeit youth or not would help greatly.
But let's keep the dialogue going I'm learnig and that's what I get on these forums for is to learn and meet new folks.
Thanks Travis
Post by: yelp on April 03, 2010, 02:12:49 PM
I really appreciate both your opinions and havesome understanding of both of your pasts in the NWTF and Appauld both your sacrifices and knowledge on this area, again I'm no biologist and not nearly as affluent with Turkeys as both of you. As far as the things both of you brought up here, may already be being said by our Bio, I may have forgotten parts....A.D.D.. I do leave the " Heavy thinking" to those who have that knowledge while my contribution is more the heavy lifting part and trying to help get more involvment whether it from the NWTF side ( which I think you guys know from past threads I'm on the Side of the Turkey and not any one group) But if we can get more folks knowledgable and involved maybe we can make a difference with the WDFW....If we don't all will be lost because as you two are well aware of it's like :bash: But sooner or later we'll knock a brick or two loose.
Yelp and Wacent I do truly value both your opinions and am not taking any offense to these threads, I think the way we have had these in the past while may be rehashing some things, are positive. I fear if we( The People) Not just the NWTF don't keep vigilant on this the WDFW would let the turkeys go by the way side. And while I am now complete and udder Turkeynut....I also see it in my Daughter 8, and that's where my drive to help these birds lie. And I'm open to any suggstions as to what to do. As far as the NWTF is concerned I wonder how much of paying the landowners to grow crops directly for the turkeys would cost us annually. It may have to be a route we persue, case by case basis.
I do agree that all animals are going to go after the easy food everytime, it's nature, but I think hazing and if we could get some hunters, albeit youth or not would help greatly.
But let's keep the dialogue going I'm learnig and that's what I get on these forums for is to learn and meet new folks.
Thanks Travis
What is the BIO's Name and contact info..if you have it? Send me a PM if you will..I heard the last bio was fired recently?? ANy truth to that? I appreciate your comments to Travis. Keep the Faith. Thanks.
Post by: Wacenturion on April 03, 2010, 03:20:58 PM
Post by: yelp on April 03, 2010, 04:09:58 PM
You mean the new biologist they recently hired, got fired........wonder why. :DOH: Don't see him listed anymore on the NWTF for Idaho, Washington or Oregon. I have a wild guess.... ;)
I heard from a good source too..I believe it is the same guy. That is why I asked the question just to see if there is a new Bio that Tamer is talking about...
Post by: yelp on April 03, 2010, 04:15:02 PM
You mean the new biologist they recently hired, got fired........wonder why. :DOH: Don't see him listed anymore on the NWTF for Idaho, Washington or Oregon. I have a wild guess.... ;)
Job Opening Wacenturian? :chuckle:
Post by: dawei on April 03, 2010, 04:18:57 PM
"Thank god there is no more free turkey tag...those days were unreal."FWIW, as a disabled hunter, I get my first Turkey tag for free with my small game license. If I wish any subsequent tag I must purchase it, albeit at half price. I DO NOT hunt turkeys in the fall. I'm not trying to rub it in anyone's face, just stating a fact.
Just another crowning achievement from WDFW's Wildlife Management ..........free taggers. I agree......thank God big time. Really promoted the sport .....huh. :bash:
Post by: fishunt247 on April 03, 2010, 04:25:55 PM
And dawei, we were talking about the masses (and really it was masses) of people that were around during the free tag days, not those who come about a free tag by other means. Congrats on still hunting despite a disability. Shows character.
Post by: Wacenturion on April 03, 2010, 05:07:21 PM
If you get the info on how much it would cost to pay landowners to leave buffer zones, etc., you would then have to compare that to the cost to trap and transplant. By far, the most effective method to take away complaints from land owners AND benefit Merriam counties throughout the state would be to trap and transplant, right?
And dawei, we were talking about the masses (and really it was masses) of people that were around during the free tag days, not those who come about a free tag by other means. Congrats on still hunting despite a disability. Shows character.
Yes trap and transfer would be the easiest, cheapest (although WDFW would now argue more expensive since they don't do it anymore), and best public relations way to do it. Always was before and is the best option, especially when you add in the benefits on the other end from the release of those birds in other areas in other counties where people want them...both landowners and sportsmen.
dawei..............certainly not directed at you or the way you get your first tag. As fishunt said...the comment was directed at the masses of road hunters and others that WDFW created in the turkey hunting pool when everyone got a free tag with the upland bird license. Hope that clears it up. In my opinion, you should also get a free license.
Post by: yelp on April 03, 2010, 05:32:06 PM
If you get the info on how much it would cost to pay landowners to leave buffer zones, etc., you would then have to compare that to the cost to trap and transplant. By far, the most effective method to take away complaints from land owners AND benefit Merriam counties throughout the state would be to trap and transplant, right?
And dawei, we were talking about the masses (and really it was masses) of people that were around during the free tag days, not those who come about a free tag by other means. Congrats on still hunting despite a disability. Shows character.
A typical trap and transfer operation included minimum 2 explosive licensees to set up rocket nets..and then volunteers were used to band birds for release and put into boxes..the travelling could be done using volunteers..etc. There also is the prep..which costed just time to maintain baited sites..so a week prior getting ready. $1000.00/trap with labor, gas, bait..this is approx. Removing 20-50 birds a trap..cost could be as low as $10-20/bird.
Buffers would actually could be cheaper because there is Federal money available through NRCS for food plot type habitat..using volunteer labor as match costing landowner..nothing, just a few hours of an experts time to assist landowner to fill out paperwork and designing mix..and whatever time needed to getting it seeded and put in the ground.
One action removes the threat... the other removes but could attract more turkeys to a given area..the idea is to attract them to an area away from any temptation..
I would prefer one over the other..but both maybe doable..having lots of tools in the tool box is essential to be able to meet the challenges this topic has. :twocents:
DAWEI - When the free tag was around everyone got one with the small game...even upland bird hunters that didn't hunt turkeys got them..many of them said it felt like a tag burning a hole in thier pocket...so many of them new to the sport..didn't hunt them properly because they didn't know how..so they did what they learned flushed, jumped, trespassed, etc..just to fill a tag. It created a situation that made turkey hunters look bad. The veterans, youth, over 65 and disabled should all get a free turkey tag with thier small game in my book... :twocents: :twocents:
Post by: fishunt247 on April 03, 2010, 05:46:02 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on April 03, 2010, 05:56:37 PM
Yelp also makes a good point on the costs and having more than one option. As a historical sidenote the dollars that paid for trap and transfer were either federal dollars from selling an idea to the feds on a larger program that encompassed trap and transfer to get program dollars over a 10 year period, or federal dollars from PR funding which is a state 25% federal 75% match, along with some additional NWTF funds for extra nets, bait etc.
So I guess it would be more expensive from WDFW's standpoint as most of those dollars are no longer there. They never contributed(like in paying their portion) to the the program as it grew and essentially let it slip away. Basically I'm saying that in the 90's trap and transfer costs were covered by other funds......none from WDFW if you want to be precise. So with that being said...yep....more expensive.
Consider though what funds were raised by turkey releases and the tag sales that followed. I think I mentioned earlier what that amounted to. So...was it expensive....absolutely not. Did it pay for itself...absolutely. Was it a money maker...............was it ever and then some and still is. Funds from tag sales would pay for trap and transfer well into the future. I guess it's just how you look at it. ;)
Post by: Tom Tamer on April 03, 2010, 07:58:54 PM
You mean the new biologist they recently hired, got fired........wonder why. :DOH: Don't see him listed anymore on the NWTF for Idaho, Washington or Oregon. I have a wild guess.... ;)
This is true....sounds like an internal thing they're not giving any info.....personally what he was doing out in the front I was liking his enthusiasum at least, THey are working hard to replace him....probably soon. It already cost us some good landonwer contacts in the S.E.. When I find out we'll pass it along.
Thanks for the comments Yelp, I also wanted to clear up an earlier statement about sidelines, to me when I speak of that I am directing it more toward folks that may be inclined to help and maybe it will help them in a positive way be more active. But when it comes to the likes of yourself Wac, and others I feel you guys already put in your time, I know that when you guys were more highly involved and before the NWTF, you're more the ones involved getting these birds here....period. Now while I call it " my generation" of the NWTF I feel it's ours to try more on the habitat front in order to get more trap and transfers. I't will be almost impossible to get the WDFW to put any birds in new areas. That project up North, while I know you were against the Sub species in question, it was really de-railed by a few non hunting types. It bent the nose at the WDFW so bad that they won't stick it back in. When in the past I've talked with the WDFW upland/turkey management. Their reasoning behind not moving " over populated areas into already estabished flock is, way back when '80's and '90s and you and Wac probably know this better than I, they feel/felt that they aren't going to do a put/take mentality due to past introductions that may have failed for what ever reason. Personally I think that is a HorseSH&* answer to todays flocks, but you guys know the WDFW :bash: So for now we're stuck, they won't move birds and the only managment the WDFW will do as you're well aware of is Blast the crap out of many as you can, or they turn a blind eye to Farmers doing it themselves.
I noticed on a a previous post Wac mentioned doing it ourselves by not participating( boycotting ) the fall harvest. I'm of that nature, I argued til blue in the face about you can't grow a flock by destroying it.I will go on a fall hunt this year only because my Daughter will take hunter Ed in June, and Turkeydancer is going to kindly take her and I over to get her first bird. I wanted her to witness what the flock does as a whole, all the social activities and such. She was along with me last year and got a real good taste of what Public land hunting has to offer. Also wanted to do it so we could get her in a comfortable shooting situation. Other than that I probably wouldn't even go over for a fall hunt. While a true to form fall hunt, like folks due back East I think would be awesome.....walking around and grouse hunting for turkey does not appeal to me.
Post by: Tom Tamer on April 03, 2010, 08:10:00 PM
Hey Yelp......with the exception of youth I almost fit into the other 3 categories...lol :chuckle:
Yelp also makes a good point on the costs and having more than one option. As a historical sidenote the dollars that paid for trap and transfer were either federal dollars from selling an idea to the feds on a larger program that encompassed trap and transfer to get program dollars over a 10 year period, or federal dollars from PR funding which is a state 25% federal 75% match, along with some additional NWTF funds for extra nets, bait etc.
So I guess it would be more expensive from WDFW's standpoint as most of those dollars are no longer there. They never contributed(like in paying their portion) to the the program as it grew and essentially let it slip away. Basically I'm saying that in the 90's trap and transfer costs were covered by other funds......none from WDFW if you want to be precise. So with that being said...yep....more expensive.
Consider though what funds were raised by turkey releases and the tag sales that followed. I think I mentioned earlier what that amounted to. So...was it expensive....absolutely not. Did it pay for itself...absolutely. Was it a money maker...............was it ever and then some and still is. Funds from tag sales would pay for trap and transfer well into the future. I guess it's just how you look at it. ;)
Those dollars are still there and should be, I can't remember exact dates but right after we got them to cease on the free tag a State NWTF BOD member actually got a law written and enacted that 1/3 of all tag proceeds are for turkey Only, hence they can not by law be touched for anything but what they have to do with turkeys.
It does/did help pay for the NWTF bio, half of his salary was paid by our State which is a good thing, showing the State is warming up to work with us, and the rest they waste on stupid crap( Shocked....not)
One was a study this " Turkey" specialist did, where he radio collared a hen in the Clockum and followded her blip for two years....his findings were that she wandered various areas and distances but never had any answer why :bash: Igave him my opinion, food, safety, easiest way to survive. I could've saved them some money there I think ;)
Post by: fishunt247 on April 03, 2010, 08:23:59 PM
Post by: Tom Tamer on April 03, 2010, 08:30:48 PM
That North sound project was derailed by a few witha loud voice. Get a lot with a louder voice and they got to listen, especially if we can have facts to base it on. verytim the naysayers get hit with facts it destroys their opinionated theory.
Post by: Wacenturion on April 03, 2010, 09:09:32 PM
Idiots in the department use these short coming to conveniently say it would be put and take. It's more like we don't want them there is what they mean. WDFW wants to keep the Merriams out of there in any new numbers because they will eventually take off, as they did in the Okanogan and elsewhere. That's the last thing they want....more expanding turkey populations.
Another thing that was idiotic was the last releases that were allowed in there...Region 3, the biologist insisted in radio collaring a good number of those birds if I recall. That's like the kiss of death. Anytime you strap something like a radio collar backpack on a turkey, you severely reduce it's chances of survival. That's one reason radio telemetry studies show high mortality's, unless a bib mount is used. That technique was first used on wild turkeys in Washington, on Easterns in the late 80's....with little to no mortality. Of course bio's just have to reinvent the wheel. An example of pure stupidity by someone who knew very little about turkeys but was a self ordained expert on what to do with them. Again that politically correct management at work. Throw common sense out the window.
Tamer.............you mentioned that the state was picking up half the tab on the biologist. If that's the case, then the state chapter ought to have a lion's share as to who they hire. In fact you guys would be better served spending that money a 1/2 time bio focusing only on Washington....forget Oregon and Idaho. One other thing...NWTF tends to like "kumbyea" types...like in don't rock the boat, don't get politically involved, don't upset the WDFW. That's the problem. I think volunteers who raise the money expect someone to stand up for them...to WDFW, at Commission mettings, wherever BS resides. That's the only way to beat em and get relocation efforts going again. :twocents:
Post by: Wacenturion on April 03, 2010, 09:20:08 PM
With that said, I have no problem what so ever to letting young hunters, say under 16 take any turkey during the fall/winter. That certainly makes it easier and posses no threat overall.
One last thing..........I see no point in two birds in any one day in the spring either. Again promotes the wrong kind of hunting. It is in my opinion setting the wrong example. But again....that's just me. It was too damn hard for a group of folks to get us to where we are today to see turkey haters in WDFW do all they can to piss away a great resource for us and future generations. Enough said.
Post by: Tom Tamer on April 03, 2010, 09:35:56 PM
Tamer...I just want to clarify a previous statement. I have nothing at all against a fall season. I do however firmly believe it should be the same as the spring....gobblers or birds with visible beards only. That protects those mature hens and trains people to take more time in shot selection. Safer and also more ethical in terms of flock shooting and potentially wounding birds.
With that said, I have no problem what so ever to letting young hunters, say under 16 take any turkey during the fall/winter. That certainly makes it easier and posses no threat overall.
One last thing..........I see no point in two birds in any one day in the spring either. Again promotes the wrong kind of hunting. It is in my opinion setting the wrong example. But again....that's just me. It was too damn hard for a group of folks to get us to where we are today to see turkey haters in WDFW do all they can to piss away a great resource for us and future generations. Enough said.
I agree entirely , I may have misinterpreted or just read it too fast....
Post by: Wacenturion on April 03, 2010, 09:50:36 PM
No not at all....I was only clarifying my comments about the fall season is all. Hope your daughter gets her bird. Any bird that a kid takes is "special". ;)
Post by: Tom Tamer on April 03, 2010, 10:55:53 PM
I agree in point to that and I think some other volunteers do to in having some say. I think that's why this latest firing has left a bad taste in a lot of member's mouth. I think this Bio while yes he's toting the motto, I think he was all about getting out there and getting moving....I wonder if he was taking on too much at one time for the likes of the powers that be didn't like writing so many checks so fast out here???? I think he may haved been a little on the" boat rocking side"
Post by: Wacenturion on April 04, 2010, 09:38:12 AM
Sounds a lot like the federal government ..... shut up stupid, we know best.
I would venture to say, that there is more to the story than we suspect. :twocents:
Post by: Phantom Gobbler on April 07, 2010, 12:11:02 PM
Good input on the subject for sure. Like where will our turkey populations be in five years?????
Post by: yelp on April 07, 2010, 12:33:16 PM
OK OK, I promise that I won't download or pickup a copy of the Spring Turkey Hunting next year! :bash: :bash:
Good input on the subject for sure. Like where will our turkey populations be in five years?????
In my freezer! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Wacenturion on April 07, 2010, 12:50:42 PM
OK OK, I promise that I won't download or pickup a copy of the Spring Turkey Hunting next year! :bash: :bash:
Good input on the subject for sure. Like where will our turkey populations be in five years?????
In my freezer! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Need to put you in the freezer to cool you off. Season's almost here....you're loosing it buddy. :chuckle:
Post by: yelp on April 07, 2010, 03:51:49 PM
:drool: :drool: :ACRY: :puke: :ACRY: Come on turkey season get here already!! :(OK OK, I promise that I won't download or pickup a copy of the Spring Turkey Hunting next year! :bash: :bash:
Good input on the subject for sure. Like where will our turkey populations be in five years?????
In my freezer! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Need to put you in the freezer to cool you off. Season's almost here....you're loosing it buddy. :chuckle: