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Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: Alan K on April 23, 2010, 10:41:30 AM


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Title: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Alan K on April 23, 2010, 10:41:30 AM
Did anyone else notice this?

Page 81 in the hard copy, top center. . . .

For quality deer and elk applications only two hunt choices are allowed.

That should help cancel out the terrible odds we're going to have a little bit!
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: bobcat on April 23, 2010, 11:12:29 AM
Yes, we've known about that for a while now. I don't think it will make a whole lot of difference. Except that it might help odds on some hunts slightly, but decrease odds on others.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Bob33 on April 23, 2010, 11:46:38 AM
With the new permitting system you do have only two choices for quality hunts: (1) screwed; and (2) screwed again.  There are not more quality permits, to the best of my knowledge.  The same applicants that applied for the quality hunts in the past will continue to apply.  Some percentage of the applicants that applied for the "meat"/cow/doe hunts will now apply in the quality pool as well.  Same # permits/More applicants = worse odds.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: bobcat on April 23, 2010, 11:55:36 AM
With the new permitting system you do have only two choices for quality hunts: (1) screwed; and (2) screwed again.

That's it in a nutshell.     :chuckle:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: winston2789 on April 23, 2010, 12:06:41 PM
BOB- Well put, the new system is screwed and you have to pay more for it  :'( .  I would like to  :pee: on our wildlife commission!!!
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Curly on April 23, 2010, 12:11:26 PM
BOB- Well put, the new system is screwed and you have to pay more for it  :'( .  I would like to  :pee: on our wildlife commission!!!

Me too.  I'm not going to get over being pissed about this new system for quite some time. >:(
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: beav1980 on April 23, 2010, 12:20:46 PM
The way I see it is that people put in for the same good buck & bull permits as they have in the past with the same amount being drawn.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Wenatcheejay on April 23, 2010, 03:49:29 PM
Old system = never going to get drawn.

New system = never going to get drawn. (However, you can donate more money to the Queen.)

What is so hard to understand?
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: boneaddict on April 23, 2010, 04:21:53 PM
Bobs on a roll.   Nailed it!
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: BENCHLEG on April 23, 2010, 06:44:51 PM
i thought i was getting screwed with the oregon price increase. now i know washington really does suck. all they want is more money.    thank you WDFW.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 23, 2010, 07:16:15 PM
i thought i was getting screwed with the oregon price increase. now i know washington really does suck. all they want is more money.    thank you WDFW.

you are getting screwed by oregon :chuckle: :P

i said piss on it with the money they want for a non res license and tag hike in price no more for me. washington did not jump on much just a lot more ways you can spend more omney this year but it takes a lot to catch up to orgeon going up about 600 to hunt deer and elk
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: duckmen1 on April 23, 2010, 07:32:57 PM
i think it kind of serve those quality hunters right that complained to get the new system so they would'nt burn all their points on a doe or cow
i'm more of a meat hunter and this whole thing really screwed my odds of getting a tag
oh well we just have to deal with it
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: banannaclip on April 23, 2010, 08:33:45 PM
lets hope we will never have to  be drawn in a point system to hunt the general season
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on April 25, 2010, 08:09:53 AM
lets hope we will never have to  be drawn in a point system to hunt the general season







 I agree................but...................................................

.....If you look around a bit on this site you will find a few people advocating permit only for eastern Wa.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Curly on April 25, 2010, 08:32:03 AM
lets hope we will never have to  be drawn in a point system to hunt the general season

 I agree................but...................................................

.....If you look around a bit on this site you will find a few people advocating permit only for eastern Wa.

Let's hope if it happens, it won't be on a point system.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: rewent12003 on April 26, 2010, 09:08:08 PM
well it wouldnt be so bad if queen greguor would take a pay cut. im pretty sure she can do with out her next face lift, oh wait never mind she already got one,,, it didnt work her face still stops traffic,,,, :o. she is the reason why all our hunting and fishing rates went up. but wdfw said there getting better,,,, YA RIGHT :bash:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 26, 2010, 09:38:43 PM
 :drool: you know how hairy those legs have got to be  :drool:

 :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: bucklucky on April 26, 2010, 11:22:34 PM
MAn, with this new draw system, Im pretty sure Im going to draw a quality bull tag this year for some reason  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 27, 2010, 05:35:20 AM
 :yeah: And I will take some of what he's smokin!!
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: RUTNBULL1 on April 27, 2010, 06:47:57 AM
Yes the system is screwed, but just think we don't have it that bad considering, we should feel somewhat better because we know there is a MR. GREGIORE out there, poor *censored* what was he thinking!! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: buckhorn2 on April 27, 2010, 07:14:12 AM
He was not thinking. Must be crowded in bed with all those indians in there.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: bobcat on April 27, 2010, 07:14:47 AM
He was not thinking. Must be crowded in bed with all those indians in there.

 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: 400out on April 27, 2010, 08:31:38 AM
I know that someone has already thought of this but my idea is to make 2 differant draws 1 for hunters with 5 or more points and 1 for hunters with 5 or less this would help a lot I think!
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Curly on April 27, 2010, 10:54:50 AM
I know that someone has already thought of this but my idea is to make 2 differant draws 1 for hunters with 5 or more points and 1 for hunters with 5 or less this would help a lot I think!

No, that's not a good idea either.  They were on the right track with their thinking about making separate categories........they just got money hungry and took it way too far.   And they should have let the applicant decide which category to place the points they've earned over the years.

All they had to do was make separate antlerless and antlered hunts, raise the price of the application a buck or two and make you choose where you wanted the points.  Instead they made so damn many pools that it is ridiculous and they pissed off a lot of people by giving away points to people in all categories and they did it all in secret until it was too late for us to complain and/or make suggestions.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: kramman on April 27, 2010, 11:03:44 AM
is it just my thinking or are the buck hunts going to now be extremely hard to get only 10 choices for all the modern firearm hunters and you get to put in for 4 of them?I.e the one i use to put in for east okanagon you have 50 tags and 1000+ apps.I bet this year there will probably 2000+ apps. how does this make it more fair and easier to draw.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: bobcat on April 27, 2010, 11:07:51 AM
how does this make it more fair and easier to draw.

You are right, it doesn't. They should not have separated buck permits into two categories. There is no reason for it, other than so they can sell more applications. Your odds will be worse, for just the reason you stated. Why should you be penalized because you like to apply for a hunt that is not considered a "quality" hunt?
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Kowsrule30 on April 27, 2010, 12:59:20 PM
I was wondering what is so "quality" about drawing an any bull tag for muzzy and having two "quality" days to hunt for your bull before the mass flood of the opener??? A "quality" hunt should be a week before everybody.....  :twocents:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: bucklucky on April 27, 2010, 01:43:35 PM
:yeah: And I will take some of what he's smokin!!

 :lol4:

You dont think I will have better odds with 2 points now....... :chuckle:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: buckskin on April 27, 2010, 02:35:26 PM
The odds will be worse all around, hunters now can put in for both sex with no consequences of losing points,people who were mostly meat hunters will now be able to use there points for antlerd deer and elk as well and vise versa. Biggest change you will see is youth hunters that were going for branched permitts will now also go for anterless, which is a good thing but all in all its made the odds much worse and is just a revenue sceme for the WDFW.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: steeleywhopper on May 08, 2010, 10:00:01 AM
I am really glad I drew my bull tag last year, because I don't think I will ever be able to draw one again in this state. Me starting out in the elk category with 1 point just about screws me to death. I can't stand the fact that someone can draw a bull tag and a cow tag, but only fill one of them. (unless it's for a second tag).
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: BLUEBULLS on May 08, 2010, 10:07:42 AM
the new system would be great in my opinion if they made everyone pick one category to use their old points in. I'll be screwed for deer for a long time since I was drawn laste year :bash:

If I would've known exactly what was coming I would have put in for pts only last year.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Wenatcheejay on May 08, 2010, 12:38:09 PM
I have hope that the new system will work for my son and This year. We will see in a month.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Curly on May 08, 2010, 12:57:47 PM
the new system would be great in my opinion if they made everyone pick one category to use their old points in. I'll be screwed for deer for a long time since I was drawn laste year :bash:

If I would've known exactly what was coming I would have put in for pts only last year.


:yeah:  (except it still would not have been great........just ok)  Dave Ware says they can "tweak" it next year, but that won't fix the problem of distributing points across all categories........
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 08, 2010, 01:06:37 PM
I got 50+ free points whats not to like  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Curly on May 08, 2010, 01:08:40 PM
I got 50+ free points whats not to like  :chuckle:
:chuckle: :chuckle:  Maybe the fact that there is not much of anything good to apply for ML in W. Washington.?
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 08, 2010, 01:14:45 PM
The muzz choices are better than the archery on the westside :dunno:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Chesapeake on May 10, 2010, 01:39:05 PM
They killed western Washington muzzy. They needed to have draw tags for the catagories so they took them from the general seasons.
No more cow hunting in West Klickitat, Washougal, or Wind River unless you draw a tag. They are all 3 pt or better now.

SW Washington looks shot for muzzy hunting for elk. Crappy units, 3 pt or better, short seasons! About all they probably did was get rid of some of the crowding. I suspect there will be alot of the muzzy guys going back to rifle for elk.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: bobcat on May 10, 2010, 01:40:23 PM
I suspect there will be alot of the muzzy guys going back to rifle for elk.

I am.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: bearpaw on May 10, 2010, 02:02:12 PM
I didn't read all the posts, but I agree they are being hard on muzzy as well as archery. Lots of archery losses too.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 10, 2010, 02:09:19 PM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 10, 2010, 02:10:22 PM
There are still great hunts out there on the westside OTC archery hunts and thats about the only thing Im really happy about....  I see one Muzzy westside hunt that I think is a gimme if people would just spend one day scounting. :chuckle:

I think the westside elk is totally under rated there are some really good hunts that can be had every year.  If guys would do there homework they would be really surprised what's available.  Some quality areas are down 80% from there historical levels of hunter participation and there are more elk than there have been in 20 years!  
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Chesapeake on May 10, 2010, 03:55:49 PM
There are still great hunts out there on the westside OTC archery hunts and thats about the only thing Im really happy about....  I see one Muzzy westside hunt that I think is a gimme if people would just spend one day scounting. :chuckle:
 

If were thinking about the same unit, I dont know about a gimme, but I agree one good unit remained pretty well unchanged. But its a small one and I suspect lots of crowding cause its the only game in town for the end of the season. Last year in December you would have thought it was the rifle deer opener cause it was bout the only place to hunt. Now it IS the only place to hunt.

I havent looked over archery yet. I primarily hunt muzzy and they got raped. This year its rifle for me and maybe archery after that, havent decided. If they keep flogging archery every 3 year cycle like they have bean I might just stay with rifle.

The WDFW is like Obama, all about supporting the lazy who dont want to work. Ever since they started the whole "equalization of harvest between the user groups" they have had to curtail the archery and muzzleloader seasons and give more opportunity to the Rifle hunters to try and equalize the success rates. Problem is I believe there is a much higher percentage of "hunters" amongst the muzzy and bow ranks than there are in the Rifle ranks. We constantly get punished for working hard and being succesfull. If we do too well they shorten our seasons.

I guess I'll just go hunt with the rifle guys.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 10, 2010, 04:01:00 PM
i did one app for my westside archery tag...nooksack and zero apps just points for the bull category...  :dunno:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: spikehunter on May 11, 2010, 07:55:27 PM
BOB for president !!!
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: sneakyjake on May 12, 2010, 07:02:47 AM
I didn't see crap for the bull cat in archery also.  Not sure what the point of the choices was. 
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: dreamingbig on May 12, 2010, 07:04:19 AM

I havent looked over archery yet. I primarily hunt muzzy and they got raped. This year its rifle for me and maybe archery after that, havent decided. If they keep flogging archery every 3 year cycle like they have bean I might just stay with rifle.
[/quote]

Interesting, I have tried to illustrate a similar point but it seems to be the unpopular opinion on this site.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: dreamingbig on May 12, 2010, 07:05:53 AM
I didn't see crap for the bull cat in archery also.  Not sure what the point of the choices was. 

They made that category for the modern firearm user group but they needed to be equitable and let all user groups waste $6.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: bobcat on May 12, 2010, 07:13:51 AM
That category is not needed. Even the modern firearm tags barely have any options in the bull category. There should have only been two categories for elk: bull, and cow.  IMO
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: shanevg on May 12, 2010, 07:50:08 AM
I think having 2 choices in the quality hunts may help odds a little bit.  I am willing to bet that nearly every single meat hunter applied for at least one quality hunt, and most of them probably 2 quality hunts.  Combined with the fact that every trophy hunter applied for four hunts and we have a recipe for slightly better odds.  I don't think it will be a big improvement, but it will be something.  The buck, cow moose, and ewe sheep categories are going to be the ones with really screwy odds.  Not enough hunts for the number of potential applicants. 

And yes, archery and muzzy hunters did get screwed.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 12, 2010, 09:33:15 AM
I just had a thought that the reason for the buck bull applications is so that they can move the general seasons into draw only. Now they have the framework to do it :(
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 12, 2010, 09:36:51 AM
That's the reason they are rolling all of the points is because they know it won't matter in a year or two because those will be general season points for the buck bull section.  Think of all the extra money they can raise if we have to apply for any season :(
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Curly on May 12, 2010, 10:27:27 AM
Sux, that is the same line of thinking that I have. 

I think that is the reason why they didn't allow people to choose where their points would go.  Guys with 14 points that now have them in all categories will have a pretty good chance of at least drawing something in the next couple years (at least an antlerless permit).  Then when they go to draw only general season they will start everyone out at 0 points.  And they will say that at least almost everyone has drawn something in the past........
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: bobcat on May 12, 2010, 10:35:57 AM
I think what Sux is saying, and I agree, is that if they do away with general deer/elk seasons, they now have a category most of the general hunts can now fall into... the regular buck/bull categories.
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Curly on May 12, 2010, 10:38:03 AM
Ok, I was getting too much into a conspiracy theory thing. :chuckle:  Yeah, that must be their thinking on those categories......damn, know I'm going to have to buy ghost points in those categories.... :bash:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Chesapeake on May 12, 2010, 10:39:47 AM
Thats what I think is happening. Thats why I paid my $6.50 and got the points option for everything even if I didnt want to try for a tag this year. Those points may become real important in the next few years.

I bought points for everything I qualify for except Doe deer. No intrest there.

I'm interested to see how the "2 choice for Quality" comes out. It wont surprise me to see that there are hunts that dont have enough applicants to fill the tag quota. I suspect most of us WF boys put in for the same 4 tags, 2031, 2032, 2033 or 2034. I thought of trying to seccond guess every one and put in for tags I though I might draw due to lack of applicants, but decided I'd just go for the gusto and collect the point for next year. Then I can look at this years stats and better judge whats going to happen.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Chesapeake on May 12, 2010, 10:44:26 AM
Here is a question for everyone:

Do you ever lose your points, other than if you draw?

In Wyoming if you dont put in for 2 years, you lose your points, but for Washington I cant see anywhere that it says. I never thought about it before, but now I'm wondering cause I all the sudden have all these points in these different categories.

Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: Curly on May 12, 2010, 10:56:57 AM
No you don't ever lose your points..........unless they change the rules (which wouldn't surprise me).
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 12, 2010, 11:27:52 AM
no you never loose then here
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: WSU on May 12, 2010, 01:21:31 PM
What I got from this whole thing is that I'm going to start focusing more on out of state hunting.  It seems dumb to spend 15 years trying to draw a tag when you buy over the counter tags in other states that are just as good. 
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 12, 2010, 01:47:10 PM
The more I think about the new system the more it makes sense to me.  The Buck/Bull category is going to be the framework that they use to make areas/units of the state permit only.  

Its the only explanation of why the choices for archery and Muzzy are so poor.  The really unfortunate thing is that I dont think the rifle seasons are far behind.

  As soon as the wolf damage in the methow creates a situation where harvest drops below 10% which is not far off (average is 13% last year)  They will say that there are too many hunters and it needs to go to draw and they will create the "Methow permit"  and put 1000 tags in the buck catigory.

It also explains why the only decent tags in the Bull catigory are basically general season yakima units... Im sure the westside elk tags wont be far behind.  They will use our complaints against us..."there are no good tags for archery and muzz"  so they will make some of the general seasons draw bull hunts.

I had hopes that the buck catigory would be the special permits that receive less than 1000 apps the previous years and that there would not be crap westside permits in the quality catigory but that would be too smart.

 :dunno:
Title: Re: Quality Elk (and deer) - 2 Choices
Post by: colockumelk on May 18, 2010, 05:47:05 PM
Yes the system is screwed, but just think we don't have it that bad considering, we should feel somewhat better because we know there is a MR. GREGIORE out there, poor *censored* what was he thinking!! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Ive met him he is a very nice man.  But a very, very strange one. 
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