Post by: LITTLEBUCK on April 30, 2010, 08:04:18 PM
Questions to ask. #1. Is anyone interested in hunting these birds?....... #2. would anyone be willing to pay anything and how much would you pay to hunt these birds to help recoup some damage costs?.......#3. Being these birds were not realeased by the state and not Easterners on the west side, are the hunting seasons, and tags required? Any Ideas to help? Questions? lets here it. Thanks
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 30, 2010, 08:11:20 PM
Post by: Birdguy on April 30, 2010, 08:18:25 PM
Post by: LITTLEBUCK on April 30, 2010, 08:22:32 PM
Post by: LITTLEBUCK on April 30, 2010, 08:25:06 PM
Post by: Whitelightning on April 30, 2010, 08:42:41 PM
Yelp, I had not thought of it as you put it. I will have to agree with your thinking, They would be live stock so to speak. Thanks for putting that into perspective.
Post by: yelp on April 30, 2010, 08:44:53 PM
Post by: BPturkeys on April 30, 2010, 09:01:39 PM
Sounds a lot like high fence hunting to me. Real wild turkeys don't just hang around and over populate an area. I would suspect that there is some reason there is over 200 birds on this place and I suspect that that something is yellow and rhymes with scorn.
Post by: Turkeyman on April 30, 2010, 09:09:39 PM
Post by: LITTLEBUCK on April 30, 2010, 09:19:09 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 30, 2010, 09:40:56 PM
Post by: yelp on April 30, 2010, 10:08:13 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 30, 2010, 10:15:09 PM
Post by: wapiti hunter2 on April 30, 2010, 10:20:25 PM
Post by: fishunt247 on April 30, 2010, 10:24:30 PM
Post by: yelp on April 30, 2010, 10:29:01 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 30, 2010, 10:38:12 PM
Post by: wapiti hunter2 on April 30, 2010, 11:06:41 PM
Post by: RileyTDF on May 01, 2010, 12:18:06 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on May 01, 2010, 04:28:50 AM
If it is legal (and I do not know if it is...or not) let folks take the opportunity. No need to bash each other over the issue. I am sure there is someone out there willing to look down their nose at any of the hunters on here, for various reasons. We all just need to keep it civil without any insults or prodding.
Post by: LITTLEBUCK on May 01, 2010, 06:58:15 AM
For those of you that may show some interest feel free to PM me and I can get your info to the property owners and you can go from there. Thanks for your comments and Ideas.
Post by: rasbo on May 01, 2010, 08:03:43 AM
Post by: LITTLEBUCK on May 01, 2010, 08:21:56 AM
Post by: yelp on May 01, 2010, 08:40:01 AM
Yes it is clearly an opportunity for someone to shoot a turkey who may never ever get to. They are poultry and can be harvested at anytime..go for it. The state has made it illegal to raise deer, elk, etc.. Turkeys maybe next..with the issues of disease transference, etc. At least the ability to maintain the flock fencing, cages, etc..)
Pheasant release sites are legal, fair chase (??)..opportunities yes. The WDFW will do anything to retain license dollars..pimping out cookie cutter products for the masses seems to be the current direction..trout plants, pheasant releases.
Like I said previously..it is the experience we retain and call upon when we need direction for the next time we go out or when we need to teach our kids. You never read in outdoor life..hunting the barnyard turkey by craig boddington, or running and gunning domesticated turkeys... :chuckle: No more on this from me..sorry to offend anyone but that is my :twocents:
Post by: BPturkeys on May 01, 2010, 08:42:38 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 01, 2010, 08:56:30 AM
Then there's the other side which feel just the opposite.
Which side is right. That's a personal question I guess, as no one is going to convince someone otherwise. The danger however is accepting something that is inherently wrong to begin with. First the birds were established illegally, and in many or even most cases these types of releases from "helpful hands" to created someones own turkey mecca, at least in their mind, creates problems.
First....as I said, it's illegal. Second, it puts game farm stock, tame birds out in an area. It potentially could lead to disease problems to existing flocks or domestic flocks. It could hybridize Easterns in the area if there were some and interbreeding took place. It promotes something vastly different from true turkey hunting for adults and kids alike. Do you as sportsman even consider the years of efforts and costs involved and battles fought to create what we all as turkey hunters have today with three different subspecies in our state? Just to be able to release Easterns into western Washington required extensive meetings and years of testing birds to to satisfy the poultry industry and the Wa. Dept. of Ag. Wonder if this person who released these birds did so............NOT. Hope his efforts never cause a local turkey or chicken farmer a problem, as he might have a mountain of liability awaiting.
If you accept this or anything similar to this pertaining to releases of turkey game farm stock as a legit and meaningful way of helping sportsmen now or in the future, you are kidding yourself. Comparing this to pheasant releases is like apples and oranges. WDFW charges a fee, rears pheasants and releases them for the purpose of providing some pheasant opportunity on the west side where none would occur if if were not done. WDFW also allows individuals to release pheasant and other upland birds, like quail and partridge.
We as sportsman have a responsibility to monitor and defend our outdoor heritage. As I said before it's a personal thing. I'm not telling anyone what they should or should not do when it comes to how you view your pastime. Just consider though what you accept and hold up to others, especially future hunters. I think Yelp said it best when he said.........
"I would rather have a disabled or youth hunter see the joys of turkey hunting..making the call, hearing the gobble, the back and forth, there is more to a hunt than a kill."
For what it's worth I agree. One last thing..........this sounds more like somebody creating an opportunity to charge folks under the guise of taking kids or handicap folks as well as others paying trespass fees to hunt. Come on folks, who are we kidding here anyway.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 01, 2010, 10:13:06 AM
There is no difference.
If it is legal (and I do not know if it is...or not) let folks take the opportunity. No need to bash each other over the issue. I am sure there is someone out there willing to look down their nose at any of the hunters on here, for various reasons. We all just need to keep it civil without any insults or prodding.
very well summed up iceman :tup: to each there own by there own choice if it is legal and they are people that contribute to our sport let sleeping dogs lie and move on.
Post by: NWTFhunter on May 01, 2010, 10:19:56 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 01, 2010, 10:47:31 AM
Wacenturion, well said. BUT stating that he broke the law by obtaining birds is a strech! Anyone can purchase game birds in this state. Yes, he should have managed them much better though.
NWTFHunter.........I never said he broke the law by obtaining birds. What I said was...............
"First the birds were established illegally, and in many or even most cases these types of releases from "helpful hands" to created someones own turkey mecca, at least in their mind, creates problems."
Never said that one could not purchase game farm turkeys for their own use which is legal. However individuals that do so cannot release them to the wild. By law they have to be confined, like in a pen or other type of enclosure. So no stretch whatsoever.
Post by: Wacenturion on May 01, 2010, 11:02:55 AM
There is no difference.
If it is legal (and I do not know if it is...or not) let folks take the opportunity. No need to bash each other over the issue. I am sure there is someone out there willing to look down their nose at any of the hunters on here, for various reasons. We all just need to keep it civil without any insults or prodding.
very well summed up iceman :tup: to each there own by there own choice if it is legal and they are people that contribute to our sport let sleeping dogs lie and move on.
Probably would be legal under the current regs to hunt them, although you better have a tag and license. However it was illegal to release and establish them. Believe me carpsniperg2, this is no contribution by any means. It does you and every other turkey hunter a disservice in the long run in several ways. In my opinion it goes back to the basic question, the hunt or the kill. It's an individual choice that one makes.
Post by: runamuk on May 01, 2010, 11:15:35 AM
There is no difference.
If it is legal (and I do not know if it is...or not) let folks take the opportunity. No need to bash each other over the issue. I am sure there is someone out there willing to look down their nose at any of the hunters on here, for various reasons. We all just need to keep it civil without any insults or prodding.
perfectly legal to buy game birds in WA I can go to almost any feed store and they can order me chicks....turkey, pheasants, quail, grouse, etc.... I also know that in eastern WA our 4H kids used to get chucks and pheasant eggs to hatch and raise and release so it is not just game farms that do this the government does it as part of their management or species and reintroduction. I agree Ice if its legal follow the rules and have fun if it isn't for you don't go..simple as that....no need to beat each other over the head with our personal values....
Post by: turkeydancer on May 01, 2010, 11:16:50 AM
I personnally know LittleBuck and can definitely guarantee his character and sportsmanship, ethics, etc. And I brought up most of the issues raised by Yelp, WaCent, etc. with him.
The people contacted him when what they thought was a good idea years and years ago started multiplying into a real nuisance problem. They are good people who had good intentions although misguided. I believe I understood that they just want to get rid of the problem now.
LittleBuck is just trying to help per their request and wanted to know legally what the people can do, and if this might present a chance at an opportunity for someone that would otherwise not have an opportunity ... basically something good out of a situation gone bad.
Yelp, WaCent, & others ... your opinions are shared by me and were voiced too ... but you guys know the law and have knowledge beyond mine ... please put personnal feeling aside and provide as much help and constructive guidance to LittleBuck that may help these people out of their current situation. Thanks for whatever you share ....
Post by: Wacenturion on May 01, 2010, 11:29:09 AM
There is no difference.
If it is legal (and I do not know if it is...or not) let folks take the opportunity. No need to bash each other over the issue. I am sure there is someone out there willing to look down their nose at any of the hunters on here, for various reasons. We all just need to keep it civil without any insults or prodding.
perfectly legal to buy game birds in WA I can go to almost any feed store and they can order me chicks....turkey, pheasants, quail, grouse, etc.... I also know that in eastern WA our 4H kids used to get chucks and pheasant eggs to hatch and raise and release so it is not just game farms that do this the government does it as part of their management or species and reintroduction. I agree Ice if its legal follow the rules and have fun if it isn't for you don't go..simple as that....no need to beat each other over the head with our personal values....
As I said earlier............it is legal as you said to purchase, raise and release pheasants, quail and partridge. It is not however legal to do so with turkeys. So lets not give that impression. No beating up over personal values, just discussing the right and wrong of things about turkey hunting that affect all of us.
Post by: LITTLEBUCK on May 01, 2010, 11:38:51 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 01, 2010, 11:50:30 AM
I guess I'll never learn about keeping my mouth shut ....
I personnally know LittleBuck and can definitely guarantee his character and sportsmanship, ethics, etc. And I brought up most of the issues raised by Yelp, WaCent, etc. with him.
The people contacted him when what they thought was a good idea years and years ago started multiplying into a real nuisance problem. They are good people who had good intentions although misguided. I believe I understood that they just want to get rid of the problem now.
LittleBuck is just trying to help per their request and wanted to know legally what the people can do, and if this might present a chance at an opportunity for someone that would otherwise not have an opportunity ... basically something good out of a situation gone bad.
Yelp, WaCent, & others ... your opinions are shared by me and were voiced too ... but you guys know the law and have knowledge beyond mine ... please put personnal feeling aside and provide as much help and constructive guidance to LittleBuck that may help these people out of their current situation. Thanks for whatever you share ....
First let me say I have very little if any sympathy for people who knowingly break the laws and burden hunters and wildlife mangers with this type of assistance.
When this has happened in the past in smaller situations than I assume is occurring here, they were directed to either confine all birds, which was impossible, or get rid of them, or get fined. That was a polite way of approaching the situation giving them an out from a ticket. Usually the wrath of crap they took from neighbors was punishment enough. Wildlife Agents were also inundated with calls from these pissed off neighbors regarding what they thought were wild birds released by WDFW crapping on decks, roofs, cars, tearing up gardens etc. All these activities costing time and money that could be spent elsewhere.
It also gave turkeys a bad name with the non hunting public....you know the majority that votes. Most people just don't have a clue as to the problems associated with these illegal releases. Many approve of it and just see it as another way to increase their opportunity, irregardless of the consequences. In short...it just pisses me off.
With the above being said and venting completed...and if indeed this is an honest attempt to get rid of a problem, then I would concur with allowing whoever and how many necessary to hunt them out of existence. Trouble is all you can kill is bearded birds. Not going to work...period. My suggestion would be for the landowners to contact WDFW, explain the situation, take their medicine and get permission to eradicate them all by whatever means WDFW allows. That's the bottom line. Sorry to be blunt.
Post by: Wacenturion on May 01, 2010, 12:06:36 PM
Wow, I just lost a whole post, Dam. So I will start over and make it short this time. I really do appreciate your inputs and thank you. Turkeydancer thank you, you said it better than I did. I do have to say that wacent you are right it is more than the kill. Its about making that call and having gobble come back with that Tom to follow. Guess what, these birds do that. They will also be gone in a second when they see you. Thanks again I do respect your opinions.
Littlebuck....you said......
"I do have to say that wacent you are right it is more than the kill. Its about making that call and having gobble come back with that Tom to follow. Guess what, these birds do that. They will also be gone in a second when they see you."
For lack of a better example, I guess I would equate that to if a known stolen outboard runs as well for you on your boat as a legally acquired one, does it make it right to keep and use it?
There is much more at stake than if they act wild.....like interbreeding or disease problems to mention a few. Those can't be devastating.
I can appreciate what you are trying to do. I hope things work out. Please don't take anything I or Yelp or anyone else who obviously has a problem with game farm releases says personally. It is by no means intended that way. Perhaps we can think of some possible solutions to alleviate the problem.
One question I do have if you don't mind sharing...........what county on the westside are these birds located in?
Post by: Diehard0123 on May 01, 2010, 12:36:08 PM
Post by: wapiti hunter2 on May 01, 2010, 01:50:33 PM
Post by: fishunt247 on May 01, 2010, 02:15:04 PM
Quote
Eastern turkeys are OK. Even though they are NOT NATIVE to Washington...Even though they at least were native to Washington and range throughout the Rocky Mountains (NWTF WILDLIFE BULLETIN NO.3).
Rio's are open country river bottom birds, not densly brushed/timbered rainforest birds. Rio plants didn't work in Central WA, so they sure as hell wouldn't work on a real scale in Western WA either. Wapiti, I think you took it a little far. This state is full of non-native animals/birds: pheasants, huns, chukar, elk. I'm pretty sure Merriams aren't native to most of their current range in WA. I'm not sure, but I don't know if bighorns are native either. Are all of these bad? Should we get rid of these too?
And actually, the map on nwtf.org clearly shows that Merriams are by far the dominiant species in the Rocky Mountains, with most of the Rio Range in Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas, plus Oregon, California, and the Blues in WA.
Littlebuck, the best advice so far is to call the game dept. and see what can be done. They may be able to help out.
Post by: Wacenturion on May 01, 2010, 03:00:57 PM
So let me get this straight. Eastern turkeys are OK. Even though they are NOT NATIVE to Washington. Washington is the only state in the west to have them (NWTF WILDLIFE BULLETIN NO.1). They were introduced by the same misguided WDFW that is introducing the Canadian Wolf. Yes, the holy WDFW did "studies" on them too prior to introducing an invasive species. Rio Grande turkeys are Bad. Even though they at least were native to Washington and range throughout the Rocky Mountains (NWTF WILDLIFE BULLETIN NO.3). Seems to me that these are the turkeys that we should be hunting in the first place.
Apparently you're reading a different NWTF Wildlife Bulletin #3 than I am. Where did you see that Rio Grande turkeys were native, thereby stating we should be hunting them rather than non-native Easterns. Wild turkeys were not native to many western states, Washington being one of them. Nothing in the literature suggest that wild turkeys...key word being wild, not game farm, pose a threat to native wildlife. Based on the following definitions they are not as you call them........Invasive.
* The first definition, the most used, applies to non-indigenous species, or 'non-native,' plants or animals that adversely affect the habitats and bioregions they invade economically, environmentally, and/or ecologically. They disrupt by dominating a region, Wilderness areas, particular habitats, and/or Wildland-urban interface land from loss of natural controls (i.e.: predators or herbivores).This includes non-native plants labeled as Exotic Pest Plants and Invasive Exotics, in restoration parlance, growing in native plant communities.[1] It has been used in this sense by government organizations[2][3] as well as conservation groups such as the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) and the California Native Plant Society.[4] It is also used by land managers, botanists, researchers, horticulturalists, conservationists, and the public.[5] The Kudzu vine (Pueraria lobata) is an example.
* The second definition includes the first, but broadens the boundaries to include indigenous or native species, with the non-native ones, that disrupt by a dominant colonisation of a particular habitat or wildlands area from loss of natural controls (i.e.: predators or herbivores). Deer are an example, considered overpopulating their native zones and adjacent suburban gardens, by some in the Northeastern and Pacific Coast regions of the United States.
* The third definition identifies invasive species as a widespread non-indigenous species.[4] This one can be too broad as not every non-indigenous or 'introduced' species has an adverse effect on a non-indigenous environment. An non-adverse example is the common goldfish (Carassius auratus), though common outside its native range globally, it's rarely in harmful densities to a native habitat.[4
Wolves on the other hand could by one or all of the above be considered as such. So lets at least be accurate first of all with the facts and also fair in comparisons. If your problem is generally with all introduced species then call it what it is, as that is your opinion and a welcome part of the debate. :)
Oh and as far as wolves being native they were, unfortunately not the wolves WDFW introduced. At least that is my understanding, based on the following.....
"bringing in wolves that were never here before, not the native timber wolf, canis lupus irremotus which was a much smaller more timid animal, or others brought in a much larger sub-species with far more aggression and killing ability the canis lupus occidentallis, or possibly two other sub-species from the north. canis lupus columbianus, and/or canis lupus griseoalbus."
Post by: luvtohnt on May 05, 2010, 08:37:58 AM
Brandon
Post by: Birdguy on May 07, 2010, 10:14:02 PM
To clear up a few other things mentioned on this thread:
Currently there is no active turkey management plan for our state (per Mick Cope upland gamebird manager DFW)
According to the biologist on this area there have been no turkeys in the area since the 1990's, there were birds released there
at one time but the population got up to around 90 birds and the residents complained so much the DFW trapped and transferred
the flock :bash:.
You can not buy grouse at a local feedstore in eastern or western WA :dunno:(if someone knows otherwise please tell me as I have
been trying to get permission form the DFW for years, I know I can get them out of state but I can not get he permits to legally
have them in Washington >:()
You can no longer release any gamebird for any reason without the proper testing paperwork and tagging
Post by: grundy53 on May 07, 2010, 10:44:31 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 08, 2010, 07:19:13 AM
at one time but the population got up to around 90 birds and the residents complained so much the DFW trapped and transferred
the flock :bash:."
It would help greatly if you mentioned the general area. Not so sure Cope has his history right on this one, as a nuisance problem in the 90's on the westside with complete removal of birds is an interesting bit of information that some of us are unaware of. At least give us the county....that would help.
Post by: LITTLEBUCK on May 08, 2010, 09:02:30 AM
Post by: runamuk on May 08, 2010, 09:23:05 AM
I have made several calls, and spent a fair amount of time talking with the DFW on this issue this week :bash:. I do not really want to open this discussion up again ,or be killed as the messenger on the board :bdid:, but if you were considering going to do this, PM me and I will tell you who I spoke with and what I was told in regards to these birds and harvesting them.
To clear up a few other things mentioned on this thread:
Currently there is no active turkey management plan for our state (per Mick Cope upland gamebird manager DFW)
According to the biologist on this area there have been no turkeys in the area since the 1990's, there were birds released there
at one time but the population got up to around 90 birds and the residents complained so much the DFW trapped and transferred
the flock :bash:.
You can not buy grouse at a local feedstore in eastern or western WA :dunno:(if someone knows otherwise please tell me as I have
been trying to get permission form the DFW for years, I know I can get them out of state but I can not get he permits to legally
have them in Washington >:()
You can no longer release any gamebird for any reason without the proper testing paperwork and tagging
OK maybe you cant get grouse but the same people the feed stores buy their birds from some do have grouse chicks.....and I really dont care about it much at this point. I was simply stating there are or have been plenty of times in this state where captive birds were raised and released both legally and possibly illegally and that is why we have pheasants and turkeys here in the state.....we also have peafowl in a few areas as well ..... I am guessing the other turkeys I saw in Island county may have arrived there the same way as the peafowl that roamed seeing as they were seen in a similar area......I am pretty sure the wdfw did not plant turkeys on Camano Island. Which is not where these birds are but a similar situation being on an island and all.
Maybe the best option would be to get rid of all the non native birds so we aren't worrying about diseases and such? :dunno: if they were only brought in to serve as sport what is the real need for them? :dunno: all this fighting amongst ourselves certainly helps the anti's push that argument ;)
Post by: Wacenturion on May 08, 2010, 06:55:58 PM
I wont divulge the location exactly but how about region 4. Region 4 biologist is Mike Davison who gave Birdguy most the info he posted above.
Thanks....