Post by: dreamingbig on May 03, 2010, 08:21:37 AM
Also, it is my prediction that after the changes to the regs this year, it will fall even lower.
Post by: bobcat on May 03, 2010, 09:48:00 AM
Post by: Bob33 on May 03, 2010, 09:52:28 AM
Archery 2009, General Season Elk: 9.0% success.
Looks OK to me.
Post by: dreamingbig on May 03, 2010, 09:56:43 AM
They responded by shortening seasons and reducing permits for archery while increasing opportunities for the other user groups.
They have been successful so they need a new argument when they attempt to reduce them again next time.
Post by: bobcat on May 03, 2010, 10:16:28 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on May 03, 2010, 10:20:43 AM
It only makes sense that the archery success rates would be lower. I don't see the problem. Don't people hunt archery for the additional challenge, and not for a better chance of bringing home meat?
Everyone I know switched to archery because they felt their odds of getting an animal were better hunting during the rut or in december with a bow than during november with a rifle - plus many bow seasons allow either sex. They were usually right. As all the timberlands have grown over rifle advantages over close-range weapons have shrunk. In many areas anything you can see is within modern bow range so why not hunt during the rut? I have never met anyone recently who found it so easy to get an elk with a rifle that they switched to a bow for the challenge. 20 years ago maybe but not now. Sure there must be lots of guys on here who have, but I don't think its a majority overall. :archery_smiley:
Post by: dreamingbig on May 03, 2010, 10:28:22 AM
"As you can see from the previous response, archers are quite successful at harvesting elk. In fact, archers also tend to take a greater proportion of mature bulls than the other two groups as well as have higher success rates. It is likely that the greater harvest of mature bulls is because of the timing of the early season"
"Actually in recent years, archers have the highest success rate among the three user groups. In 2007 the elk harvest success rates were: Archers ll% Muzzleloaders 8% Modern Firearm 7%"
"Archers made up 22% of the elk hunters and took 31% of the mature bulls harvested; Muzzleloaders made up l4% of the elk hunters and took 15% of the mature bulls; and Modern Firearm hunters made up 64% of the elk hunters and took 54% of the mature bulls. A mature bull was considered greater than five points for this comparison. It was for these reasons that we are recommending an adjustment to archery season timingand length."
"Allowing archery elk hunting during the last two weeks of September would result in greater mature bull harvest during the peak of breeding. It would also exasperate the propofion of mature bulls taken by archers."
Post by: dreamingbig on May 03, 2010, 10:30:16 AM
I don't know... it doesn't look out of line to me. Archery success is still higher than modern firearm, but lower than muzzleloader:
Bobcat... I will post 2009 for your review. I am not sure where you got those numbers but it is not 2009. I know your style... you cherry pick the truth for your own point of view.
Post by: bobcat on May 03, 2010, 10:34:16 AM
Archery dropped 2 percent and modern firearm came up 1 percent. Seems reasonable to me. Archers still have a higher success rate than modern firearm. What specifically is it that you have a problem with?
Post by: dreamingbig on May 03, 2010, 10:37:15 AM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 03, 2010, 10:37:31 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on May 03, 2010, 10:38:50 AM
Modern firearm was 10.7% in 2009. Where did you get your numbers?
Post by: Alan K on May 03, 2010, 10:42:32 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on May 03, 2010, 10:44:19 AM
Post by: Bob33 on May 03, 2010, 10:47:37 AM
Post by: bobcat on May 03, 2010, 10:55:08 AM
And here is a link... http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/elk_general.html (http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/elk_general.html)
Modern firearm was 10.7% in 2009. Where did you get your numbers?
Same place you did. Only thing is I'm looking at "General Season." The numbers you are looking at are general season and special permit hunts combined.
Post by: kirkl on May 03, 2010, 10:56:32 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on May 03, 2010, 10:57:15 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on May 03, 2010, 10:59:08 AM
ya i dont see the problem here. so a few more rifle and ML hunters got lucky this year, next year it could go the other way, then what will you say. You already get an early and late season and can shoot spikes or cows in some GMU's. we get 9 days for spikes. again i dont see a problem. :dunno:
I wanted to point out that the game department achieved their objective! It will go even lower after this years changes. In 2012, I hope that they will make adjustments to rebalance once again but I am not counting on it.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on May 04, 2010, 08:39:01 PM
I see tons of rifle hunting camps that I swear at least half the hunters don't leave, probably too hung over from the party around the fire the night before.
You are supposed to leave camp ? :o
Post by: RUTNBULL1 on May 04, 2010, 10:02:32 PM
And here is a link... http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/elk_general.html (http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/elk_general.html)
Modern firearm was 10.7% in 2009. Where did you get your numbers?
Same place you did. Only thing is I'm looking at "General Season." The numbers you are looking at are general season and special permit hunts combined.
We should be looking at the all numbers and all seasons it say's 2009 ELK Comparison Rates, which means all seasons, all weapons, and all animals taken period! And yes for the majority Archery hunters are more dedicated and serious about there hunting. Ok new topic! :beatdeadhorse:
Post by: bobcat on May 04, 2010, 10:35:21 PM
Anyway, the archery season gives archers plenty of opportunity and more than enough time and areas to hunt. Archery hunters have no reason to complain about their success rates.
Post by: belkaholic on May 04, 2010, 10:48:59 PM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on May 05, 2010, 05:30:14 AM
Most of the people i see typing on websites complain if they don't kill something, some of my favorite hunts have been where i didn't even pull the trigger. Yes, my goal is to fill the freezer every year, but if i don't that doesn't mean i didn't enjoy doing it.
Modern east-9 days
Modern West- 11 days
Archery east- 13 days early and between 15 and 17 days late
Archery west- 13 days early and 22 days late
Muzzy east- 7 days early and 15 late
Muzzy west- 7 days early and 22 days late
If you hunt archery on the west side you could spend 35 days in the field chasing elk. Sounds like fun to me...
Post by: ELKBURGER on May 05, 2010, 05:41:54 AM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on May 05, 2010, 06:09:48 AM
I personally don't archery hunt to maximize success, I want the days in the field. But success is the name of the game when it comes to allocating opportunity.
Post by: ICEMAN on May 05, 2010, 06:32:59 AM
Anymore, I have just learned to bite my lip about it, and try to encourage all of the user groups to join forces and fight as one.
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on May 05, 2010, 05:32:56 PM
Post by: fishwhackin on May 10, 2010, 05:32:44 PM
Post by: elksnout on May 10, 2010, 08:54:18 PM
Post by: grundy53 on May 11, 2010, 01:31:07 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on May 11, 2010, 07:06:02 PM
Do note however that archery success rates are falling and will continue to do so given the recent changes in regulations. That was my intent.
Post by: NWBREW on May 11, 2010, 07:47:22 PM
I used to bow hunt for elk but things changed in my life and now for the past decade I have been rifle hunting. And my plan is to get back into bow hunting in the near future. That's my personnel plan. Now as always I do not give a rats ass how many archers or smoke pole rs get their elk. We all are allowed one tag, who gives a flying rip what weapon we choose ?? 7%, 9% or 12 % success. Who cares ? I say enjoy your weapon and hunt of choice, hunt wisely and safely and let me do the same. I'll give you a thumbs up for the elk you called in and shot cleanly with your bow or smoke pole and give me the same courtesy when I out smart a timber bull that's out foxed you guys during the early seasons. Let 'er rip !!
I agree 100%. I do not care if some say rifle hunters are slobs or archers have more passion for the hunt. To me that is B.S.. I thought this was a discussion about elk success rates. Comments like those posted earlier in this thread.....belittling rifle hunters because some feel they know is crazy. There is a lot I could say about archery game loss or muzzy but that doesn't help in keeping the core group of hunters together. dreamingbig, I know this was not your intent but my god this seems to happen alot on this site. I have done both....rifle and bow, like a lot on this site have and I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly on both sides. There is not one group that is exempt from it.
There are hard core hunters and slobs in all categories and not one is any better then the other. We choose to hunt with the weapon we choose because we love the hunt and the wilderness. Hunters care......slob hunters don't....BOW OR RIFLE OR MUZZY. just my :twocents:. Not meant to offend anyone.......unless your a slob hunter. :chuckle:
Post by: NWBREW on May 11, 2010, 07:56:10 PM
As a general rule archery hunters have to hunt harder in order to be successful but that doesn't mean all do. There are great hunters among all user groups.
Sorry but I do not agree with that statement. Archers may have to get closer to the game they wish to harvest but they do not have to hunt harder. Archers have a longer season to harvest (as I believe they should ) but a hunter, no matter what his choice of weapon, still looks at topo maps, pays attention to the wind and the weather, may be gone from dawn till dusk....or later, put on just as many boot miles as the other and so forth. I will say that because a bow hunter must get closer the most successful of bow hunters do need to hunt smarter....but not harder. Again just my :twocents:. Not meant to offend anyone.
Post by: bobcat on May 11, 2010, 08:10:30 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on May 12, 2010, 06:36:04 AM
Therefore, for me hunting with my bow is pretty dang hard and harder than hunting with a weapon that has an effective kill range that is two to five times mine. I don't think you or NWBREW will ever change your mind.
Archery success rates are trending down and they will continue to do so given the changes. That remains my point and is one crutch that the WDFW will not be able to lean on during the next 3 year season setting process.
Post by: bobcat on May 12, 2010, 07:10:03 AM
Bobcat, you are assuming archery hunters have a bull tag or are hunting a GMU that allows you to shoot a bull. I haven't drawn a bull tag yet for an eastern washington GMU yet (only been hunting/putting in for the past 7 years) so I have been forced to hunt cows and spikes in an OTC unit with a season that is only 13 days long.
Rifle and muzzleloader seasons are the same, they also can only kill spike bulls and they do not have the option of taking a cow, like the archery hunters do. Wouldn't you say you see a lot more cow elk than you do spikes? Rifle season in those units is 9 days, muzzleloader 7, while archery gets 13.
Archery success rates are trending down and they will continue to do so given the changes. That remains my point and is one crutch that the WDFW will not be able to lean on during the next 3 year season setting process.
So they're trending down, but not a significant amount, and I have to ask: what are these changes you're talking about? The archery season is still 2 weeks in mid-September, just as it has been for a while now. There are many units to choose from if you want the option of taking a cow, and if you want to hunt bulls you can buy a westside tag and hunt almost any GMU in western Wa.
Post by: dreamingbig on May 12, 2010, 07:44:44 AM
QuoteRifle and muzzleloader seasons are the same, they also can only kill spike bulls and they do not have the option of taking a cow, like the archery hunters do. Wouldn't you say you see a lot more cow elk than you do spikes? Rifle season in those units is 9 days, muzzleloader 7, while archery gets 13.
So they're trending down, but not a significant amount, and I have to ask: what are these changes you're talking about? The archery season is still 2 weeks in mid-September, just as it has been for a while now. There are many units to choose from if you want the option of taking a cow, and if you want to hunt bulls you can buy a westside tag and hunt almost any GMU in western Wa.
Yes I see more cow elk than spikes which is why the change to spike only for GMU 356 and 352 for archery will make the success rate their fall dramatically. There are still cow permits in each unit for muzzleloader and modern firearm this year.
The changes are too many to document fully but the number of days afield for archery has been reduced dramatically. The early season is now a day shorter than the last 3 year cyle and is being moved forward a day each year, it was the 8th to 21st and is now 7 to 19th (last year 8th to 20th and next 6th to 18th); the peak of the rut is after the season is over but right during the prime "bull" hunts. There were also several late season opportunities lost. It is clear that you think modern has been getting a raw deal for years and that you will never hunt with a bow.
I have a hard time figuring out how equity among user groups can be achieved while also maximizing revenue. The WDFW has obviously chosen the latter.
Post by: grundy53 on May 12, 2010, 08:43:29 AM
I used to bow hunt for elk but things changed in my life and now for the past decade I have been rifle hunting. And my plan is to get back into bow hunting in the near future. That's my personnel plan. Now as always I do not give a rats ass how many archers or smoke pole rs get their elk. We all are allowed one tag, who gives a flying rip what weapon we choose ?? 7%, 9% or 12 % success. Who cares ? I say enjoy your weapon and hunt of choice, hunt wisely and safely and let me do the same. I'll give you a thumbs up for the elk you called in and shot cleanly with your bow or smoke pole and give me the same courtesy when I out smart a timber bull that's out foxed you guys during the early seasons. Let 'er rip !!
I agree 100%. I do not care if some say rifle hunters are slobs or archers have more passion for the hunt. To me that is B.S.. I thought this was a discussion about elk success rates. Comments like those posted earlier in this thread.....belittling rifle hunters because some feel they know is crazy. There is a lot I could say about archery game loss or muzzy but that doesn't help in keeping the core group of hunters together. dreamingbig, I know this was not your intent but my god this seems to happen a lot on this site. I have done both....rifle and bow, like a lot on this site have and I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly on both sides. There is not one group that is exempt from it.
There are hard core hunters and slobs in all categories and not one is any better then the other. We choose to hunt with the weapon we choose because we love the hunt and the wilderness. Hunters care......slob hunters don't....BOW OR RIFLE OR MUZZY. just my :twocents:. Not meant to offend anyone.......unless your a slob hunter. :chuckle:
i agree too. and I'm sorry for my previous rant. i just really hate it when people generalize about modern rifle hunters. i hunt elk really hard as well as the rest of my hunting crew. i have nothing against bow hunters (a lot of my friends and family hunt with a bow). i would love to hunt elk with a bow but i would rather stick with my crew. i just hate when people talk *censored* about my choice of weapon... the same as I'm sure bow hunters hate it when we bring up the amount of lossed animals there are during bow season due to people taking poor shots. i feel there are good and bad in every hunting season and we need to stick together and stop the infighting.