Post by: garyltbh on May 04, 2010, 06:24:30 PM
Post by: ELKBURGER on May 04, 2010, 06:27:30 PM
Post by: konrad on May 04, 2010, 06:55:23 PM
This begs the question: If most deer are killed at 20 yards, why is flatter shooting so important when the kill zone is an 8 to 10 inch diameter circle? It is common knowledge that pass-through (complete arrow penetration) is nearly a given when using a stoutly constructed, sharp broadhead at 20 yards with any arrow material shot at modern compound speeds.
The very best carbon shafts have a high initial purchase price and it is true that they will return to their original shape well after making a glancing blow. However, they are susceptible to filler/binder cracking and fiber separation from tip/side impact and nock end damage. Manufacturers of carbon shafts suggest flexing and rolling of the shaft under tension after every shot to reveal fiber/binding filler damage and prevent shaft explosion upon the next firing. It is doubtful many archers practice this precaution but, none the less, this reflects manufacture’s concerns about prevention of injury to archers and standers by (read that lawsuits). Carbon composite shafts may also become abraded at the point end from being shot into rough targets such as hay. Abrasion can, over time, weaken both shaft strength and spine quality. Today’s hard anodizing of alloy shafts just polishes to a high gloss.
I have used wood, carbon and alloys in archery. I would never consider carbon again without some sort of nock protection (here we are again with the $$$). I have damaged a number of shafts due both nock and point end damage.
For me, nock end damage is more tolerable (it means I’m doing something right, consistently) rather than worrying about shafts collapsing on the point end or being eroded from target friction. That’s it, laugh…hay will do it!
I now use Easton premium alloy shafts with nock end protection i.e. Easton Super Uni Bushing. The Super Slam shafts are spine retention and straightness guaranteed for 2 years and the X-7’s straightness is unparalleled in carbon unless you are prepared to spend more than twice the money. Those who tout alloy “loosing its spine” should think carefully about metallurgy. Flexing metals get harder with time, not more soft. Logic says those alloy shafts should be gaining stiffness not loosing and Easton Technical confirms my theory. They, by the way, sell a lot of carbon shafts.
It is my contention that the technology needed for composite shaft production is much easier to obtain than for alloy shafts. Therefore more companies are now in the market. Archers are no more resistant to advertising than any other group and so the perceived need to “upgrade” to composite shafts seems imperative. I also believe carbon technology should produce less expensive arrows but advertising hype and archer’s herd mentality has pushed pricing (and profit margins) higher.
I now see advertisements for “higher grains per inch” weight carbon shafts to “maximize penetration”. Wait a minute…I thought the whole reason for carbon technology was light construction and speed.
Kind of makes you wonder, doesn’t it?
I guess if I had corporate sponsorship or was independently wealthy, I would have the most expensive of everything and not be concerned with replacement price. But I still have to work for a living.
Meanwhile, I will content myself with a little longer time of flight, a quieter shot, greater durability and lower replacement cost.
Besides, I like shooting the straightest, cheapest arrow on the firing line!
PS I've never seen an alloy shaft do what is shown in this picture. This is from under spined or damaged shafts.
Post by: Dansk on May 04, 2010, 07:22:55 PM
Some common problems with carbon fiber composites-
If it's not painted, the plastic used to 'glue' the carbon together will deteriorate from UV light and become susceptible to structural failure or de-lamination
Carbon fiber structure is very strong when pulled or bent or when a sheet of it is hit on the flat side, however it does experience structural problems when compressed, jarred, or 'crushed'.
Bonds between metal fittings and carbon need to be precise and well engineered - you cannot just slap a nock in or directly thread a fitting - joint surfaces need to be true.
Small gaps between layers or air pockets can cause failure.
When it fails- it can be catastrophic- 'exploding' is common. aluminum will just bend.
Do they have titanium arrows? That'd be the ticket.
Post by: croix on May 04, 2010, 07:44:12 PM
Post by: garyltbh on May 04, 2010, 07:58:58 PM
Post by: croix on May 04, 2010, 08:05:16 PM
"Should I be shooting Carbon or Aluminum Arrows?" This is a very common question I hear from a lot of archers. The truth is, is that there is really no set answer it is basically a case of your personal preference. As with any products there are always pros and cons to them. In this article I am going go through some of these pros and cons with you."
From this link: http://www.archerybuff.com/carbonvsaluminum.php (http://www.archerybuff.com/carbonvsaluminum.php)
huntersfriend.com also has a lot of good data about arrows. look for the carbon u link.
Post by: garyltbh on May 04, 2010, 08:22:39 PM
Post by: Special T on May 04, 2010, 09:57:25 PM
Post by: Sneaky on May 04, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
Post by: konrad on May 05, 2010, 07:37:59 AM
When purchasing any shaft the primary consideration should be the proper spine selection. Once spine has been determined, I would opt for a “middle of the road” alloy such as Easton’s Platinum Plus or XX 75’s with the alloy Super Uni Bushings (for durability) instead of the carbon composite type.
Eder’s has the Camo Hunters for $50/dozen and the Platinum Plus for a little less (you have to buy inserts separately but they come with the metal Super Uni bushing already installed).
I have also used Easton’s X-7, XX 78 with great success. It’s a tougher alloy but also more expensive. Please refer to Easton Technical’s web-site for the Super Slam (XX 78 alloy with fancy camo) warranty covering spine and straightness.
http://www.eastonarchery.com/products/product/9/warranty (http://www.eastonarchery.com/products/product/9/warranty)
PS 374 fps sounds scary fast from an arrow that is properly spined for the bow. Many shops will sell the lightest arrow they can get away with to impress the prospective buyer with the speed. As with anything else, there are trade-offs. Light arrows tend to be more easily damaged than more stoutly constructed ones. Bows tend to want to self destruct and get very noisy as it is similar to a dry firing situation using extremely light arrows.
I would want to verify that your cousin is using the correct shaft for his X-Force.
Post by: croix on May 05, 2010, 08:17:15 AM
When purchasing any shaft the primary consideration should be the proper spine selection.
ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON!
Figure out the spine for your draw weight and arrow length and then figure out what trade-offs you are willing to make regarding weight, speed, kinetic energy, cost, etc. It's basically a math quiz ;)
Post by: Wild Bill on May 05, 2010, 08:25:12 AM
Post by: Ratdog68 on May 05, 2010, 08:33:12 AM
I want to read this thread, but cannot stop looking at that damn picture :yike:
I hear ya... I had a wooden arrow grenade on me last summer. Thankfully, my arm guard kept me from harm's way. If I had to choose... a wood arrow, or a carbon injury like that? I'd opt for wood. :o
Post by: xXx Archery on May 05, 2010, 09:01:15 AM
i dint want to spend 135 a doz i can get alum for 38 bucks a doz or carbon for 75 doz if the alum will work just as good i want to shoot them if the wont work as well then ill shoot carbon thats my queston is one as good as the other ?????
We really need more INFO from you
what bow are you shooting?....what lbs?.....Draw?.....and arrow lenght?
then what Arrow for 35.00dz....and What carbon for 75.00dz
What do you want in the arrow?
some times guys are just buying a price tag...others are buys what works best for what they want ...
as for is alum as good as Carbon...YES for some things..not all carbon arrows the same and the same for alum...
Post by: tlbradford on May 05, 2010, 09:11:21 AM
Quote
I now see advertisements for “higher grains per inch” weight carbon shafts to “maximize penetration”. Wait a minute…I thought the whole reason for carbon technology was light construction and speed.
That is actually the reason I went with carbon over wood for my longbow. I can get an arrow with a high EFOC number and a heavy arrow which helps maximize penetration, especially when you are shooting around 190 ft/sec and not 300.
Post by: garyltbh on May 05, 2010, 12:25:17 PM
Post by: xXx Archery on May 05, 2010, 04:08:19 PM
at 26.75" that arrow will be about 475grains at your draw shooting 220 fps with 51.06 Kinetic Energy
now if we shoot a 400 spine Victory arrow for 69.00 dz will be about 370 grains
would shoot 255fps with 53.44 kinetic energy
so for hunting I would shoot the carbon arrow over the alum.
the alum arrows you can get for 38.00 will have a conventional nock ...not as good as the super nock that carbon arrows have or better alum arrows have....alum arrows are very straight and have real good spine ...but you will get more life with the carbon.
I still shoot alum arrows for indoor shoots cuz they shoot so good ...but it is 20 yards ...slow, but hits the same spot..but I shoot X7 alum and they cost 90+ a dz. ...so some times cheaper is not always better...
I hope this helps....alum will fly just as good as carbon...
if you need more info call me I can talk better than type... :chuckle:
Post by: garyltbh on May 05, 2010, 05:21:16 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 05, 2010, 07:20:34 PM