Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: 400out on May 26, 2010, 07:11:26 AM

Title: special app draws quick Question
Post by: 400out on May 26, 2010, 07:11:26 AM: Morning my question is which of the special apps do you thnk will get drawn first ( bull or antlerless)? I contacted wsfw but could not get a answer THe rep said that you can not hunt both hunts so you will have to choose between if you get drawn but you loose your points in both, but my point was and is if I got drawn for cow then do I still have the same chances for bull? I know that the points I have will go toward all draws, why should I loose my points for on one or the other if I can not hunt it! Do you think I should pick and choose or apply for both and take my lumps if the worst happens? I have a crappy feeling that a lot of people that apply for both hunts will get drawn for both and have to choose and in turn loose they're points in both catagories! :bash:
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Woodchuck on May 26, 2010, 07:16:11 AM: i was told by one of the nice folks in oly that you could in theory be drawn in two categories for the same season, my though would be that if by some freakish accident by the *censored* gods and i pulled a bull tag and anterless tag, i would hunt hard for the bull and at the end if no luck hope to put a cow down, you can hunt both, can only kill one :dunno:
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: bobcat on May 26, 2010, 07:25:07 AM: That's right, you can use every permit that you draw. You could draw three elk permits and use them all. That's why you should lose your points in all the categories in which you draw. If you don't want to take a chance of drawing more than one per species, then apply only for a point in some of the categories.You chances of drawing a bull permit is not affected by also drawing a cow permit. It doesn't matter in what order they draw for each category. They are all separate.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: 400out on May 26, 2010, 10:11:06 PM: Thanks guy that kind of clears it up, I just wonder how many people will draw both this year and lose all points :'(
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: bobcat on May 26, 2010, 10:14:32 PM: People that have a lot of points, and put in for bull hunts and cow hunts, there will be a bunch of them drawing two permits, I suspect. Then they'll go crying to the WDFW and trying to get their points reinstated. I'm sure we'll have some whiners on here too. I stand the risk of drawing more than one elk permit myself, but I only have 3 points so my odds of even getting one aren't good.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: the1rod on May 26, 2010, 10:26:58 PM: i was curious about this two. i only put in for antlerless so i dont have to worry about it. but i dont see why if you were to draw two that you couldent choose one, deny the other and let the one that you denied be re-drawn and given to a different hunter.then you would only be able to hunt one and get to keep your points in the one that you denied. sounds like an easy solution to me, gives more opportunities to more hunters and keeps others from wasting points.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: bobcat on May 26, 2010, 10:35:59 PM: I don't think they want to deal with re-issuing of permits. The easiest solution would have been to only allow one application per species. But that would make too much sense and might actually improve draw odds, which is what they originally were trying to do with the changes they made. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 27, 2010, 08:22:42 AM: Quote from: the1rod on May 26, 2010, 10:26:58 PM
i was curious about this two. i only put in for antlerless so i dont have to worry about it. but i dont see why if you were to draw two that you couldent choose one, deny the other and let the one that you denied be re-drawn and given to a different hunter.then you would only be able to hunt one and get to keep your points in the one that you denied. sounds like an easy solution to me, gives more opportunities to more hunters and keeps others from wasting points.

Many in our camp with 14 points like this idea! I brought that up to the the commissioner from K/F in Leavenworth and he made the motion to monitor this scenario to see if it needs to be addressed next year.
In previous years there was a paragraph stating if a person drew a tag by mistake that they could turn the permit in and reinstate their point totals. I read it in the 1 1/2 inch thick booklet they handed out at the meeting.
Want to increase draw odds, then go back to the system used until about 1997. (for ELK) DFW would loose MEGA$$$$
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: bobcat on May 27, 2010, 08:25:15 AM: Quote from: Elkaholic daWg on May 27, 2010, 08:22:42 AM
In previous years there was a paragraph stating if a person drew a tag by mistake that they could turn the permit in and reinstate their point totals. I read it in the 1 1/2 inch thick booklet they handed out at the meeting.

It is still that way. But how do you prove it was a "mistake?"
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 27, 2010, 08:34:18 AM: How do they prove it wasn't?
Not really worried about it happening to us sinc e we all put in for a colockum quality (2 available) and mission bull (1 available) and an antlerless. Chances are almost non existant of pulling one of the first two!

Last year we would not have even considered a cow tag. Did that make for better odds for those who did this year. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: bobcat on May 27, 2010, 08:36:36 AM: Exactly. I think they will be getting a lot of phone calls by people that made a mistake, right after the results come out.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: lokidog on May 27, 2010, 08:41:50 AM: :'( :'(

"WAAAA! I got my 12 points transferrred into every category and now I got drawn for two elk tags and I lost my cow tag points when I shot that big bull, I want my points back because I didn't even hunt for cows."

I am so sick of people trying to game the system. You all shouldn't have gotten points in EVERY category for the points you had anyways. If you were worried about it, do like the people that could think ahead more than three days and either gamble losing the points or don't apply in more than one category.

Get over it WDFW F'ed most people over in some way with this *censored* change in the system.

:twocents: + :twocents:
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: GoldTip on May 27, 2010, 08:51:51 AM: I have to agree with Lokidog on this one. One problem I foresee that this will create, is there will be a percentage of guys with high numbers of points that applied for anltlerless tags as well as bull and quality bull that draw both or hell all three, then will not end up hunting a cow at all. This will decrease the Cow harvest that the department wishes to achieve. I think there will also be guys who draw the cow tag with 14 points who don't go hunt a cow at all, further leading to the decreased harvest. I think this is probably an unforeseen circumstance that the WDFW created without even thinking about it. The unfortunate thing is that there are guys who knew they could draw a cow tag every 2-3 years and have been doing so, and for the next year or two, the odds will be very long at even drawing an antlerless tag while the big point guys get weeded out by drawing the tag. I have 5 points, and generally that would have almost assured a cow tag in most units that have antlerless permits, but thats unlikely this year I would guess.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 27, 2010, 08:56:26 AM: They have created a huge log jam of points in the quality category.....people are not having to make the choice on antlerless vs antlered now so its going to be 2x as long of wait for good tags...
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: bobcat on May 27, 2010, 08:58:02 AM: Quote from: WDFW-SUX on May 27, 2010, 08:56:26 AM
They have created a huge log jam of points in the quality category.....people are not having to make the choice on antlerless vs antlered now so its going to be 2x as long of wait for good tags...

True, at least with the elk permits. I'm not so sure the quality deer odds will be affected much by this.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Bob33 on May 27, 2010, 09:07:00 AM: Quote from: the1rod on May 26, 2010, 10:26:58 PM
i was curious about this two. i only put in for antlerless so i dont have to worry about it. but i dont see why if you were to draw two that you couldent choose one, deny the other and let the one that you denied be re-drawn and given to a different hunter.then you would only be able to hunt one and get to keep your points in the one that you denied. sounds like an easy solution to me, gives more opportunities to more hunters and keeps others from wasting points.
The only part of your statement that may not be correct is the "easy solution". I suspect it would be much harder to implement than it sounds. First, the multiple permit holder would have to contact WDFW and request that he return one. WDFW would have to validate that he has the permit. WDFW would need to void it so he can't use it. WDFW would need to run another drawing or draw names from a previous list. WDFW could have to contact the new winner. He might have already drawn another permit...and so the job goes.

You are right: that is the way it should be done. There will probably be many permits thrown away this year because applicants will draw more than one, and only use one. That is a shame and one more of the "unintended consequences" of this mess they've created.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 27, 2010, 09:08:24 AM: Deer, now there's a species where nothing changed in my apps. Only one, and I almost didn't do any at all. Did not buy any for the better 1/2 which I did buy in Elk. gotta save a couple bucks somewhere. I just could not see taking the bait and buying in every category available. see my post in the "feel like I been raped" thread. I actually am ahead of them by $2 from what I might have done
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: NRA4LIFE on May 27, 2010, 09:12:42 AM: For me, never having drawn a special tag in this state, the odds of me drawing 2 in one year have to be astronomical. I guess 2 is better than none. However, I believe in this new system, almost any draw is essentially going to be a once in a lifetime draw. Once you lose your points in this system, you are are forever screwed, IMO. Even for something like cow elk tags.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: woodswalker on May 27, 2010, 09:13:35 AM: There is a REASON I put in for mostly Points options...have ONLY the ones I want that do NOT conflict or put me in a win/lose situation. Rack the points for most of it. I put in for Quality Deer during elk season, a late antlerless tag for late hunting that is a 2nd tag hunt, a turkey tag in the Methow and the same bull elk tag I've been putting in for for a decade now. EVERYTHING else was points option.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 27, 2010, 09:18:59 AM: Quote
I believe in this new system, almost any draw is essentially going to be a once in a lifetime draw. Once you lose your points in this system, you are are forever screwed, IMO. Even for something like cow elk tags

X2
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: bobcat on May 27, 2010, 09:22:51 AM: Quote from: NRA4LIFE on May 27, 2010, 09:12:42 AM
I believe in this new system

:yike:
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Bob33 on May 27, 2010, 09:24:07 AM: WDFW could fix this by offering packets of points for sale: 1 point, $10: 10 points for $1000. Then they can set up a "permit exchange" site whereby hunters can sell points and they take a 35% "broker" cut. Think of all the money they could bring in, and all the extra land access it would generate...They could claim "broad public input and support" for the idea.. :yike::bdid:
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: NRA4LIFE on May 27, 2010, 09:26:54 AM: I love this new system. I love giving mass quantities of $$$ to the WDFW and never drawing tags. I love hunting spikes. I love hunting deer when it's 85 degrees out. I love not being able to hunt the ruts. I love never getting a moose or sheep tag. I love watching all those rams off HY 410 in my binoculars knowing I will never shoot one. I LOVE WASHINGTON!
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: buckhorn2 on May 27, 2010, 09:30:36 AM: Bob you have a lot of Love there. Thanks for getting me straight on things. I put my money in the pot now the wait starts. Hope you get a good draw you deserve it just for all your help on here.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 27, 2010, 09:31:26 AM: Quote from: NRA4LIFE on May 27, 2010, 09:26:54 AM
I love this new system. I love giving mass quantities of $$$ to the WDFW and never drawing tags. I love hunting spikes. I love hunting deer when it's 85 degrees out. I love not being able to hunt the ruts. I love never getting a moose or sheep tag. I love watching all those rams off HY 410 in my binoculars knowing I will never shoot one. I LOVE WASHINGTON!

:chuckle:
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: the1rod on May 27, 2010, 09:10:07 PM: Quote from: Bob33 on May 27, 2010, 09:07:00 AM
Quote from: the1rod on May 26, 2010, 10:26:58 PM
i was curious about this two. i only put in for antlerless so i dont have to worry about it. but i dont see why if you were to draw two that you couldent choose one, deny the other and let the one that you denied be re-drawn and given to a different hunter.then you would only be able to hunt one and get to keep your points in the one that you denied. sounds like an easy solution to me, gives more opportunities to more hunters and keeps others from wasting points.
The only part of your statement that may not be correct is the "easy solution". I suspect it would be much harder to implement than it sounds. First, the multiple permit holder would have to contact WDFW and request that he return one. WDFW would have to validate that he has the permit. WDFW would need to void it so he can't use it. WDFW would need to run another drawing or draw names from a previous list. WDFW could have to contact the new winner. He might have already drawn another permit...and so the job goes.

You are right: that is the way it should be done. There will probably be many permits thrown away this year because applicants will draw more than one, and only use one. That is a shame and one more of the "unintended consequences" of this mess they've created.

bob you are right, i was way off in saying "easy". it would be alot of work for WDFW, and unfortunately thats probably what will keep it from happening.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Caretaker on May 27, 2010, 09:16:42 PM: This problem wouldn't exist if Dave Ware didn't F*** the system up. I risk drawing more then I can tag myself. Previous system didn't allow this to occur. I would think any snippy lawyer would have a hay day class action lawsuit defending folks.
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Bob33 on May 27, 2010, 09:40:36 PM: Quote from: NRA4LIFE on May 27, 2010, 09:26:54 AM
I love this new system. I love giving mass quantities of $$$ to the WDFW and never drawing tags. I love hunting spikes. I love hunting deer when it's 85 degrees out. I love not being able to hunt the ruts. I love never getting a moose or sheep tag. I love watching all those rams off HY 410 in my binoculars knowing I will never shoot one. I LOVE WASHINGTON!
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
(You must be one of those hunters that was part of the "broad public support" that WDFW claimed for these changes.)
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Bob33 on May 27, 2010, 09:43:40 PM: At this point, all that's left is HOPE for some CHANGE.

(Wait a minute, where have I heard that before...._)
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Caretaker on May 27, 2010, 09:47:45 PM: My campaign: NoWare 2010 !!
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: bowelkaholic on May 28, 2010, 10:27:11 AM: Its about how much there going to make on all these new permits and how many animals their going to kill your odds are the same nothing has change it should be 12 points you get a tag you been trying to get .
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: MooseStock on May 28, 2010, 02:31:53 PM: It has changed......this was just a total cash grab that will make the odds worse. I would be willing to bet most areas will be at least double the applicants that they were last year. This is a total fiasco.................Les
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: SkookumHntr on May 28, 2010, 02:43:31 PM: Quote from: Caretaker on May 27, 2010, 09:47:45 PM
My campaign: NoWare 2010 !!

:yeah:
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Jburke on June 03, 2010, 03:44:40 AM: If you are worried about drawing more than you can tag, then don't apply for more than you can tag. It's not rocket science, it's that simple. I'm sure most will agree that whether they will admit it or not, the state made these changes at least in part to make more money. This system has it's flaws I'm sure, but what one doesn't? It may take some getting use to, but they aren't going to change it right away, no matter how much people whine and complain about it. The system is designed to solve exactly what they set out to fix. That being the fact that people didn't want to lose their points on antlerless or less desirable tags over the quality bull tags. If you don't want to waste your points by drawing multiple permits and not being able to tag an animal with each permit, then don't apply for them all. Nobody is forcing anyone to spend the extra money to apply for every category available. No matter what system they use, there is absolutely no way that they can make everybody happy. Nobody want's to hear someone whine about how they drew a tag in each category and the rest of us didn't draw at all. DON'T APPLY FOR ANYTHING YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO LOSE! :twocents:
Title: Re: special app draws quick Question
Post by: Bigshooter on June 03, 2010, 03:55:07 AM: I love it. Some people bitching about not drawing any tags and the rest bitching about drawing to many tags. :hello: