Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: HoofsandWings on May 30, 2010, 09:41:29 AM

Title: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: HoofsandWings on May 30, 2010, 09:41:29 AM: What is the minimum bullet weight for a .50 cal when elk hunting?
250 grains? 275 grains? Less? More?
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: rasbo on May 30, 2010, 09:45:22 AM: I will be using 295 grain power belts and 110 loose,maybe 100 loose ..many say more but these work well for me..348 I believe you will hear a lot about
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 30, 2010, 09:55:24 AM: there is no said min weight just diamiter which is 45 for all other big game deer is 40 cal its kinda up to each person i like heavy bullets from deer + sized animals we shot the 290's tmz's last year for deer and would have no prob using them on elk i have hunted with the dead centers 340 for years before the switch and would trust them on anything.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: HoofsandWings on May 30, 2010, 04:36:09 PM: The reason for asking is I need to start practicing for the October opener. I know it is 4 months away, but have you looked at my calendar. I only have a handful of weekends that are not spoken for. I am going to be using triple seven FFFG powder since in testing, I found with #11 percussion caps, work well in my rifle.
Maybe if I was using #209 primers, FFG would suffice. I need to practice those 100 yard shots. And practice bugling.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: HoofsandWings on May 30, 2010, 04:39:31 PM: Hey Rasbo, do you have a life outside this forum? TEN THOUSAND posts and counting? :yike:
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: rasbo on May 30, 2010, 04:41:55 PM: :chuckle:I was broke up in an accident pretty bad and ,,well guess what I spent my time doing LOL..Im in the woods most days working my leg,disabled sooo there ya go
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: markts on May 30, 2010, 04:46:59 PM: I was not impressed with the 295 gr powerbelts last year on an elk I shot in the neck, I think I will try the 348 copper jacketed bullet :twocents: Mark
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: rasbo on May 30, 2010, 04:49:27 PM: Quote from: markts on May 30, 2010, 04:46:59 PM
I was not impressed with the 295 gr powerbelts last year on an elk I shot in the neck, I think I will try the 348 copper jacketed bullet :twocents: Mark
im a head shooter,what happened break up bad
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: bobcat on May 30, 2010, 04:57:11 PM: Powerbelts are really soft. I prefer a bullet that will penetrate all the way through. How much penetration did you get with that neck shot? By the way, a neck shot on an elk with a muzzleloader is a really bad idea. A lot of meat there with just a small area you have to hit for a lethal shot. I have experience with this. Shot a cow elk at 15 yards through the middle of the neck with a 54 caliber maxi ball. She ran over 1/4 mile with almost no blood trail. Luckily she did lay down and when we got close she stood up and let me put another bullet through the lungs.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: rasbo on May 30, 2010, 05:00:21 PM: when I run out of powerbelts I do plan on switching...not sure which bullet yet
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: markts on May 30, 2010, 05:01:13 PM: The bull had already been hit so I thought a neck shot would finish the job at 35-40 yds :dunno: bullet pancaked and was found in his neck. As far as the neck shot being a bad idea-I have lived and learned ;)
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: bobcat on May 30, 2010, 05:13:26 PM: Yeah those powerbelts do "pancake" even on broadside shots through blacktail deer, through nothing but ribs and lungs. I am going to try Harvester bullets this year. They have a couple of different types that I like and the prices are reasonable.

http://www.harvesterbullets.com/ (http://www.harvesterbullets.com/)
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: markts on May 30, 2010, 05:17:59 PM: Those look good. What do you plan on trying 300gr :dunno: 348gr
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: bobcat on May 30, 2010, 05:31:49 PM: Right now I have the 54 caliber hard cast (all lead) in 330 grain. I bought them before they changed the law allowing copper jacketed bullets. So now I want to try the Scorpion Funnel Point in 300 grain. But I think I've got enough of the hard cast bullets to last a while. So I will probably just use them for this year. I won't ever use less than 300 grains.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: markts on May 30, 2010, 05:38:52 PM: I havent shot my new gun yet so I think I will try the powerbelts I have for load testing. If they load alright I am definately going up to the 348 copper powerbelts this year. Thanks for the tips. Mark
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: buckhorn2 on May 30, 2010, 08:19:31 PM: I shoot powerbelt 348 grain and they have worked for me. I have friends who used 295 and don;t anymore.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: gadwall on May 31, 2010, 09:06:12 AM: Quote from: bobcat on May 30, 2010, 05:13:26 PM
Yeah those powerbelts do "pancake" even on broadside shots through blacktail deer, through nothing but ribs and lungs. I am going to try Harvester bullets this year. They have a couple of different types that I like and the prices are reasonable.

http://www.harvesterbullets.com/ (http://www.harvesterbullets.com/)

I am going to give the Harvesters a try this year as well. My buddies that use them on whitetails shot end to end through a small square bale of hay at 75 yards with the 280 grain bullet and 2 pyrodex pellets with 80% + weight retention. I will also be shooting the 360 gr. dead center bullet.

Gadwall.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: jdb on June 07, 2010, 05:45:06 PM: I shoot 370 grain maxi balls.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: Moose Eyes on June 07, 2010, 06:24:20 PM: I prefer custom conicals in the 460 - 495 grain range.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: bobcat on June 07, 2010, 09:12:51 PM: Quote from: Moose Eyes on June 07, 2010, 06:24:20 PM
I prefer custom conicals in the 460 - 495 grain range.

I think those heavy conicals are a good choice, but I just don't like the recoil.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: Moose Eyes on June 08, 2010, 10:50:48 PM: Quote from: bobcat on June 07, 2010, 09:12:51 PM
Quote from: Moose Eyes on June 07, 2010, 06:24:20 PM
I prefer custom conicals in the 460 - 495 grain range.

I think those heavy conicals are a good choice, but I just don't like the recoil.

70-80 grains does the trick in my Whites. No need for 120-150 grains like some folks think they need.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: Whitelightning on June 09, 2010, 07:28:55 PM: Quote from: Moose Eyes on June 08, 2010, 10:50:48 PM
Quote from: bobcat on June 07, 2010, 09:12:51 PM
Quote from: Moose Eyes on June 07, 2010, 06:24:20 PM
I prefer custom conicals in the 460 - 495 grain range.

I think those heavy conicals are a good choice, but I just don't like the recoil.

70-80 grains does the trick in my Whites. No need for 120-150 grains like some folks think they need.

I agree Moose Eyes, 70-80 grains is all you need with a good Muzzle loader and big conicals. Recoil is minimal and the bullet is devastating on big game. I have never had to use a second shot on any Big game I have shot with a heavy conical.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: Jellymon on June 09, 2010, 07:38:05 PM: 180gr nosler partition :chuckle:
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: hillbilli on June 09, 2010, 07:40:37 PM: i'd like to try the barnes copper bullets, i think they are 295's. but i'll probably use the 300gr xtp's, as i used those for the savage mz, and have a bunch of them. i've been pretty happy with their results on whitetails, but havent shot anything bigger with them. i concur with what was said about neck shooting elk- i shot one through the neck a few years ago- a follow up shot on a wounded animal, and the way he was laying all i had was neck, the broadhead cut an 1.25" hole, and got nothing but muscle- theres a lot of muscle above the spine to hold that rack up.. i was fortunate- he only ran another 125 yds and was down and dead from the first arrow.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 09, 2010, 07:47:39 PM: Quote from: hillbilli on June 09, 2010, 07:40:37 PM
i'd like to try the barnes copper bullets, i think they are 295's. but i'll probably use the 300gr xtp's, as i used those for the savage mz, and have a bunch of them. i've been pretty happy with their results on whitetails, but havent shot anything bigger with them. i concur with what was said about neck shooting elk- i shot one through the neck a few years ago- a follow up shot on a wounded animal, and the way he was laying all i had was neck, the broadhead cut an 1.25" hole, and got nothing but muscle- theres a lot of muscle above the spine to hold that rack up.. i was fortunate- he only ran another 125 yds and was down and dead from the first arrow.

are you mixing a archery story with a muzzle story? i am lost i would never shoot a elk in the neck with a bow but would not have a problem at close range with my smoke poles but it sounds like you are talking about a archery hunt in the muzzloader discussion? just wondering.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: bobcat on June 09, 2010, 08:23:10 PM: A neck shot on an elk is not good with arrow or muzzleloader bullet. I know, I shot a cow elk at 15 yards with a 435 grain Maxi Ball out of a 54 caliber Renegade. She ran a quarter of a mile. I ended up getting her, but only after I was able to put a second bullet through both lungs.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: Whitelightning on June 09, 2010, 08:27:27 PM: Bobcat I agree I have never been a fan of neck shots too much can go wrong and maybe not be able to finish the animal. Double lung is always a guaranteed shot :twocents:
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: WSU on June 10, 2010, 08:57:46 AM: I have done the neck shot thing on 2 elk, and it worked poorly. First was a cow that I shot with my .300. It was the second shot as she ran after being double lunged. I heard the bullet hit but she just stumbled and kept on truckin'. The second was the bull I killed last year. Lung shot with the muzzy. He ran out of the clearcut and into the reprod. I go in a while later and he jumps up, I shoot him at about 15 feet in the neck. I wasn't aiming at the neck, but shooting through at 25 foot fir, that is where my bullet ended up hitting. He goes down, and then rolls over and lifts his head up looking at me. All I can see is neck so I let him have it again in the neck. Flops over, lays there for 20 or 30 seconds, then lifts his head up and looks at me again. Instead of trying another neck shot, I walked up and blasted him at the base of the scull. As you can tell, I'm a fan of shooting them until they stop moving. All told, I've shot elk in the neck 3 times (only two elk) and none appeared to be lethal (although all were after first shot lethal hits). Elk are damn tough critters...
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 10, 2010, 10:40:34 AM: yeah i have never done it my self because i don't muzzle hunt for elk i archery elk hunt. i wonder if that was because the bullets were opening up to much i call it pancakeing like the lead power belts do. my dead centers as went threw a lot of bone on deer and the new barnes bullets i am shooting with 125 grains of powder with a shot under about 40 yards i would think i would have no problem but have not tried it. i have shot a ton of deer in the neck and so has my little brother it seems like that is the shot he gets almost every year for one reason or another and out of about 15 deer that i have shot or been around like my little bro and family only 1 was not down on impact but it cut the jugular and he did not go far. but elk are a lot bigger and tougher for sure.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: bobcat on June 10, 2010, 10:43:53 AM: Well, a deer's neck is a lot smaller and you're much more likely to hit something vital when neck shooting a deer.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: WSU on June 10, 2010, 10:46:30 AM: I've shot 2 deer in the neck, both with the .300, and both were dead on impact.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: bobcat on June 10, 2010, 10:53:47 AM: Yeah, my comment about a neck shot being a poor choice is only in regards to elk. Deer are totally different. And it's also somewhat different when you're shooting a modern firearm with a velocity of 3000 feet per second, versus a muzzleloader which is probably around 1500 feet per second.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 10, 2010, 11:01:47 AM: yes i understand that, but with a good bullet and a multi tag in my pocket and a good close range shot i would have to wack and stack an elk
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: bobcat on June 10, 2010, 11:16:46 AM: The bullet doesn't matter if you don't hit anything vital. Hit an elk dead center in the neck and there's a good chance you'll hit nothing but meat. Do what you want but like I said, I shot a cow elk at 15 yards, 54 caliber, 435 grain Maxi Ball, through the middle of the neck. Maxi Balls do not "pancake" and actually with a neck shot it would be better if it did. Two 54 caliber holes in that elk's neck didn't even leave a blood trail. I was lucky to find her and get a 2nd shot through both lungs.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 10, 2010, 11:25:25 AM: :tup: the power of choice :chuckle: you have your :twocents: and i have my :twocents:
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: redroket on June 10, 2010, 03:28:16 PM: I will be doing my first Elk hunt with MuzzleLoader this year. I have a 45 Whitworth. The bullets I have now are conical and are 500 grain lead. I have several but not sure if they are the correct bullet for hunting? I did purchase some 300 gr Aerotip Platinums from Cheaperthandirt, just to see how they shot? I will shot them in the next couple of weeks. I am really up in the air about what to use so I have been reading everything you guys are puttin down.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: bobcat on June 10, 2010, 03:32:39 PM: If you have a 500 grain bullet in 45 caliber, I am sure it will be more than sufficient for elk. :o
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: redroket on June 10, 2010, 03:58:29 PM: I am sure you are right just thought it might be a bit on the large size? I use 110gr of black powder and you know when you shoot it! I have heard that these unjacketed bullets sometimes change shape in flight which would certainly hurt your ability to hit anything, that is why I thought the jacketed bullets might be better for hunting.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: bobcat on June 10, 2010, 04:06:17 PM: Wow that sounds like your right at or maybe even over what is considered a max load. If nothing else, that ought to hurt your shoulder pretty good. :o
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: WSU on June 10, 2010, 05:46:38 PM: I can't see it changing shape in flight, but they can surely pancake when they hit an elk. That said, it should work great. It does sound like a heck of a load be shooting out of a 45, but I'm no expert.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: duramax on June 11, 2010, 01:20:06 AM: I shot my cow elk last year with a 348 grain copper aero tip PowerBelt with 100 grains loose triple7. I had a good shot on her and went straight through the heart and two rib bones, had a little over a inch exit hole. She was ranged at 120 yards when I took the shot. I was very impressed with these bullets. I have a Knight Bighorn with a Williams peep sight. The aero tips shoot very well for me, I can hold a tight group at 100 yards. My :twocents:
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: Whitelightning on June 11, 2010, 05:52:51 AM: redrocket,
The Whitworth is designed to shoot those heavy conicals. The 500 grain bullet should fly better out of that rifle than the shorter lighter copper bullets. I shoot 460 grain lead conicals out of my .45 Whites, they group incredible. I have taken a White tail with this bullet at 200 yards right through the boiler room and out the other side :twocents:

The bullet will belly some in the bore. You are not going to be pushing that bullet past its Ballistic capibilty with a B/P charge. Now guy's shooting all lead in a modern pistol or rifle certainly can. You will be amazed at the knock down power that bullet with the charge you are using will have even out past 100 yards.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: redroket on June 11, 2010, 03:09:00 PM: Quote from: Whitelightning on June 11, 2010, 05:52:51 AM
redrocket,
The Whitworth is designed to shoot those heavy conicals. The 500 grain bullet should fly better out of that rifle than the shorter lighter copper bullets. I shoot 460 grain lead conicals out of my .45 Whites, they group incredible. I have taken a White tail with this bullet at 200 yards right through the boiler room and out the other side :twocents:

The bullet will belly some in the bore. You are not going to be pushing that bullet past its Ballistic capibilty with a B/P charge. Now guy's shooting all lead in a modern pistol or rifle certainly can. You will be amazed at the knock down power that bullet with the charge you are using will have even out past 100 yards.
whitelightning,
I am a novice and to be honest I am now wondering if my rifle is a 50 cal? It is a 451 Whitworth. I have not measured the bullets or the bore. All the bullets came with the rifle as I bought it from a widow of friend of mine several years ago and just never thought about using it until the last year. I have shot it 3 times and it really got me wanting to use it hunting.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: Whitelightning on June 11, 2010, 03:51:37 PM: Quote from: redroket on June 11, 2010, 03:09:00 PM
Quote from: Whitelightning on June 11, 2010, 05:52:51 AM
redrocket,
The Whitworth is designed to shoot those heavy conicals. The 500 grain bullet should fly better out of that rifle than the shorter lighter copper bullets. I shoot 460 grain lead conicals out of my .45 Whites, they group incredible. I have taken a White tail with this bullet at 200 yards right through the boiler room and out the other side :twocents:

The bullet will belly some in the bore. You are not going to be pushing that bullet past its Ballistic capability with a B/P charge. Now guy's shooting all lead in a modern pistol or rifle certainly can. You will be amazed at the knock down power that bullet with the charge you are using will have even out past 100 yards.
whitelightning,
I am a novice and to be honest I am now wondering if my rifle is a 50 cal? It is a 451 Whitworth. I have not measured the bullets or the bore. All the bullets came with the rifle as I bought it from a widow of friend of mine several years ago and just never thought about using it until the last year. I have shot it 3 times and it really got me wanting to use it hunting.

Redrocket,.451 is a 45 cal it is a true 45 cal meaning the bullet is 45 not the bore. My White rifles are the same way. .410 for 41 cal, .451 for 45 cal, .504 fro 50 cal and .540 fro 54 cal. That rifle you have is a real nice piece :drool:. Are the bullets smooth sided or do they have lube grooves in them? Whitworth was one of the first to design and use the elongated conical bullet to gain accuracy and velocity. Pm me maybe we can get together and I can share more information with you.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: redroket on June 14, 2010, 04:04:21 PM: Quote from: Whitelightning on June 11, 2010, 03:51:37 PM
Quote from: redroket on June 11, 2010, 03:09:00 PM
Quote from: Whitelightning on June 11, 2010, 05:52:51 AM
redrocket,
The Whitworth is designed to shoot those heavy conicals. The 500 grain bullet should fly better out of that rifle than the shorter lighter copper bullets. I shoot 460 grain lead conicals out of my .45 Whites, they group incredible. I have taken a White tail with this bullet at 200 yards right through the boiler room and out the other side :twocents:

The bullet will belly some in the bore. You are not going to be pushing that bullet past its Ballistic capability with a B/P charge. Now guy's shooting all lead in a modern pistol or rifle certainly can. You will be amazed at the knock down power that bullet with the charge you are using will have even out past 100 yards.

Whitelightning,
I will have to look at them but I believe they are smooth. It is a nice looking rifle, heavy as hell though. I need to put some type sling on it to carry it around. Be happy to meet up with you possibly at a range where you can show me the ropes?
whitelightning,
I am a novice and to be honest I am now wondering if my rifle is a 50 cal? It is a 451 Whitworth. I have not measured the bullets or the bore. All the bullets came with the rifle as I bought it from a widow of friend of mine several years ago and just never thought about using it until the last year. I have shot it 3 times and it really got me wanting to use it hunting.

Redrocket,.451 is a 45 cal it is a true 45 cal meaning the bullet is 45 not the bore. My White rifles are the same way. .410 for 41 cal, .451 for 45 cal, .504 fro 50 cal and .540 fro 54 cal. That rifle you have is a real nice piece :drool:. Are the bullets smooth sided or do they have lube grooves in them? Whitworth was one of the first to design and use the elongated conical bullet to gain accuracy and velocity. Pm me maybe we can get together and I can share more information with you.
Title: Re: Bullets for Elk hunting
Post by: ML_Hunter on July 12, 2010, 06:56:41 PM: Quote from: bobcat on June 10, 2010, 10:53:47 AM
Yeah, my comment about a neck shot being a poor choice is only in regards to elk. Deer are totally different. And it's also somewhat different when you're shooting a modern firearm with a velocity of 3000 feet per second, versus a muzzleloader which is probably around 1500 feet per second.

I shot my .50 using 290 grs Barns TMZ with 120 grains of powder and got about 2300fps for vol.