Post by: washelkhntr on August 12, 2010, 05:02:32 PM
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
600 Capitol Way North, Olympia, WA 98501-1091
http://wdfw.wa.gov/ (http://wdfw.wa.gov/)
August 12, 2010
Contact: Dave Ware, (360) 902-2509 or Kevin Robinette, (509) 892-7859
White-tailed deer hunt proposals to be reviewed in August meetings
The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) will host four public meetings in August to review proposals to modify Washington white-tailed deer hunting regulations in northeastern Washington game management units (GMU) 117 and 121.
The meetings, which will run 7 - 9 p.m., will take place:
Aug. 19, Pierce County Library, PAC Room A & B, 3005 112th St. E., in Tacoma.
Aug. 24, Colville Campus of Community College of Spokane, 985 S. Elm St., in Colville.
Aug. 25, Center Place Regional Event Center, Great Room, 2426 N. Discovery Place, in Spokane Valley.
Aug. 26, Yakima Convention Center, Room A, 10 N. 8th St., in Yakima. (Due to construction, visitors should access the convention center from the Yakima Avenue entrance or the North Parking Lot entrance.)
The proposed changes include restricting harvest of bucks to white-tailed deer with four antler points or more. Under current rules, any buck can be harvested in GMUs 117 and 121.
The antler-point restriction was requested last spring by the Stevens County Fish and Wildlife Advisory Committee in a petition to the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission. The nine-member citizen commission, which sets policy for WDFW, requested that the department seek additional public input prior to consideration for the 2011-12 hunting season.
WDFW staff, the county advisory committee and other stakeholders met last month to develop specific proposals for public review. WDFW staff will incorporate stakeholder and public input into a final proposal, which will be part of a recommended 2011-12 hunting season rules package.
The commission is scheduled to hold a public hearing on the 2011-12 hunting season rules package during its March meeting. The commission is expected to take final action on the rules package during its April meeting.
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Post by: 270Shooter on August 12, 2010, 05:07:02 PM
Post by: Austrian Hunter on August 12, 2010, 05:09:12 PM
Those units have the most deer in the state why do they need a 4 point minimum? I could see 2 point maybe so some yearling wouldnt get shot, but what do I know.
:yeah:
Post by: bobcat on August 12, 2010, 05:19:45 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on August 12, 2010, 06:10:16 PM
Post by: huntinhick on August 12, 2010, 06:31:36 PM
Carl
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on August 14, 2010, 08:21:19 AM
Well, here is the petition the Stevens County commissioners presented to the Fish & Wildlife Commission at a meeting last March:
Also in April in in the Bavarian tourist trap meetings. Was there, told them I had my own 4 point restriction most of the time, I don't need to force others to also. Wolves are coming also
Post by: drk9988 on August 14, 2010, 09:32:42 PM
Post by: PolarBear on August 14, 2010, 10:00:53 PM
Right idea, wrong GMU'sMove it to 101 & 204!
Post by: huntnnw on August 14, 2010, 11:22:03 PM
Post by: bowhunterforever on August 14, 2010, 11:46:48 PM
Post by: Sneaky on August 15, 2010, 08:35:58 PM
I am all for some sort of point restriction in some gmus. It is night and day from the quality of hunting south of the river as opposed to the north side of the river. Sorry but watching fields with 100 does and a coulple dink bucks running around is waaaay outta whack.
The big bucks are there, they just do not come out into the fields with 100 does. They are smarter than that.
The problem with hunting in NE Washington is poor relationships between private landowners and hunters. A point restriction would do little to solve the issues in this part of the state.
My experience hunting in this part of the state for most of my life has led me to believe that there are plenty of deer, and plenty of trophy-quality bucks, in this part of the state. My main observation has been poor buck to doe ratios. A buck can only breed so many does during the rut, a number that most agree on as 15 or less does bred per buck. If you have a buck to doe ratio of say, 1:25, ten of those does are not going to bred. Therefore, they will not reproduce. Therefore, they are not a productive member of the herd and will spend winter eating the available food source and the herd will see little for it. Then, a hard winter happens along, and look what happens. Deer numbers in the northeast have been adversely affected by the last winters due to the abundance of un-bred does which is caused by an out-of-whack buck to doe ratio.
The answer is to harvest more does. Less does will increase the strength of the herd by creating an environment with more fawn production, and therefore potentially more opportunity to grow bucks. Keeping doe numbers in check will provide the potential for a better overall herd.
But how do you keep does in check? My experience is that many of the public land/national forest areas in NE Washington don't experience the same "100 does in a field" problems as the lowland areas. There are plenty of deer, but not as many as you see driving through town. This is due to the fact that many private landowners don't allow hunters to hunt their fields, where the large numbers of deer live. This problem has been addressed by WDFW in the issuance of permits such as the Spokane North, South, and HWY 395 Cooridor tags, as well as by removing all general early season doe opportunity in 117 and 121. This will definitely help boost numbers, but will do little to address the true problem of out of whack ratios.
The institution of a point restriction would do little for the deer herd in the NE and would only accomplish less hunter turnout, which would result in less tourist dollars for an already depressed region. I feel for these reasons that a point restriction in the NE is not a suitable answer to existing problems.
Post by: drk9988 on August 15, 2010, 10:52:09 PM
Post by: Hangfire on August 15, 2010, 11:42:07 PM
Any body that has concerns should attend one of the meetings coming or keep track of where this is going and let FW know what your feelings are.I understand that this is the brainchild of sports groups and county commissioners.They chose 4 point (3 point plus eye guard), because spikes, 2 points and even 3 point deer are mostly 1.5 year class deer. They also had other recommendations that they want.
I have yet to talk to a resident in northern Spokane or Stevens county that is in favor of this. That doe's not mean it will not pass. I know some land owners that are very opposed to this.
Post by: alwinearcher on August 16, 2010, 12:28:10 AM
In the proposal by the Stevens County group they point out the departments lack of accurate counts.. The only counts they state are the opinions of the ranchers that live along side the deer!! This is very scientific! More bred does will increase the deer population if that is what is desired by the group not more mature trophy class bucks! What is the benefit of the herd if all the 4 points and larger are killed??.The bucks that make it to the 4 point level with todays seasons are the deer we want breeding and plenty of these exist just not road hunting..I guess who wouldn't promote something that will keep people out of their back yard all along creating a trophy unit right out the back door...These farmers and ranchers are going to be begging for money and permits do to crop damage if this goes...
But the thing about it is, all 4 pnt and larger bucks wont be killed. SOME 4 pnt and larger bucks will be killed, BUT once the bucks have a couple years to mature and reach their 4 pnts, they will have a lesser chance of getting shot because they will have added years of wisdom :dunno:
Post by: alwinearcher on August 16, 2010, 01:03:26 AM
In the proposal by the Stevens County group they point out the departments lack of accurate counts.. The only counts they state are the opinions of the ranchers that live along side the deer!! This is very scientific! More bred does will increase the deer population if that is what is desired by the group not more mature trophy class bucks! What is the benefit of the herd if all the 4 points and larger are killed??.The bucks that make it to the 4 point level with todays seasons are the deer we want breeding and plenty of these exist just not road hunting..I guess who wouldn't promote something that will keep people out of their back yard all along creating a trophy unit right out the back door...These farmers and ranchers are going to be begging for money and permits do to crop damage if this goes...
But the thing about it is, all 4 pnt and larger bucks wont be killed. SOME 4 pnt and larger bucks will be killed, BUT once the bucks have a couple years to mature and reach their 4 pnts, they will have a lesser chance of getting shot because they will have added years of wisdom :dunno:
If by "added years of widsom" you mean standing there, looking at hunters, and not getting shot for the first couple years of thier life...I fail to see how this will all of a sudden be a survival advantage after they grow that 4th point.
Deer that arent getting shot at do still get smarter with age.
Post by: alwinearcher on August 16, 2010, 01:09:32 AM
In the proposal by the Stevens County group they point out the departments lack of accurate counts.. The only counts they state are the opinions of the ranchers that live along side the deer!! This is very scientific! More bred does will increase the deer population if that is what is desired by the group not more mature trophy class bucks! What is the benefit of the herd if all the 4 points and larger are killed??.The bucks that make it to the 4 point level with todays seasons are the deer we want breeding and plenty of these exist just not road hunting..I guess who wouldn't promote something that will keep people out of their back yard all along creating a trophy unit right out the back door...These farmers and ranchers are going to be begging for money and permits do to crop damage if this goes...
But the thing about it is, all 4 pnt and larger bucks wont be killed. SOME 4 pnt and larger bucks will be killed, BUT once the bucks have a couple years to mature and reach their 4 pnts, they will have a lesser chance of getting shot because they will have added years of wisdom :dunno:
If by "added years of widsom" you mean standing there, looking at hunters, and not getting shot for the first couple years of thier life...I fail to see how this will all of a sudden be a survival advantage after they grow that 4th point.
Deer that arent getting shot at do still get smarter with age.
Do they tell you this, or leave messages at your trail cams?
It depends, only a few of the bucks around will have regular convos with me. so part of it im guessing. ;)
Post by: huntnnw on August 16, 2010, 01:17:07 AM
"The big bucks are there, they just do not come out into the fields with 100 does. They are smarter than that." :bash: :bash:
I notice where you live, I have spent 1,000's of hours watching deer here, I lived on a alfalfa in the heart of some of the best whitetail country in NE WA, the big bucks do come out! spend some time scouting in the summer, the biggest of the bucks are out feeding. Yeah come fall they are gone.
Post by: huntnnw on August 16, 2010, 01:24:19 AM
Post by: huntnnw on August 16, 2010, 02:03:00 AM
Post by: huntnnw on August 16, 2010, 05:18:04 AM
Post by: huntnnw on August 16, 2010, 05:29:33 AM
Post by: huntnnw on August 16, 2010, 07:32:55 AM
Post by: alwinearcher on August 16, 2010, 08:00:20 AM
:chuckle:
The talkative ones are just trying to get on your good side so you will feel bad for them when the opener rolls around (don't fall in to their trap, they're very smart ;) ). :chuckle: :chuckle:
DANG IT! I knew I should have never let thaqt 200" inch buck walk! :chuckle:
Post by: Hangfire on August 16, 2010, 08:54:05 AM
I want to find out what the advantage to the deer herd is with a 4 point minimum. Do they have better breeding like elk. Every thing I have heard and seen is that is not the case with whitetail. There is not a doe fertility problem now. I have been told and what I have observed is a barren or nonfertile doe almost doesn't exist. You see does with out fawns this time of year as they are hid out. I watch a lot of deer in the fall a white tail doe with out at least 1 fawn is very rare. You must remember the fawns suffer some loss from cars and predators. Not having a fawn with her doesn't mean she didn't have one.
Post by: drk9988 on August 16, 2010, 05:40:12 PM
exactly matt, the 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 or the dumbest deer in the woods. Why dont some of these people on here go take a look at mica peak in the rut and take notes! not even compareable into quality of bucks running around.
I guess the heart burn I have with it is that in the proposal they are looking for more deer because they think the population has decreased.. They need to just come out and say they want trophy units.. Also different people have different feelings about what a quality deer or a trophy deer is.. Some people are happy to kill a doe every year and fill the freezer.. I know plenty of people that would consider any deer a trophy..Also if you lived on alfalfa you know how the deer can damage your crop when they come back in full force because only a few big bucks are getting shot... Then the whining will begin again...
Post by: 1bugman on August 16, 2010, 05:56:47 PM
Post by: huntinhick on August 16, 2010, 06:18:06 PM
carl
Post by: Hangfire on August 16, 2010, 06:42:46 PM
Post by: Sneaky on August 16, 2010, 07:49:41 PM
sneaky
"The big bucks are there, they just do not come out into the fields with 100 does. They are smarter than that." :bash: :bash:
I notice where you live, I have spent 1,000's of hours watching deer here, I lived on a alfalfa in the heart of some of the best whitetail country in NE WA, the big bucks do come out! spend some time scouting in the summer, the biggest of the bucks are out feeding. Yeah come fall they are gone.
Once that velvet comes off they disappear. I have hunted all three weapon seasons in the northeast since I was very young and have seen this. Come the November rut, if you find a place with 100 does, you will find the mature bucks. If you live on NE alfalfa, you know this.
Post by: TeacherMan on August 16, 2010, 08:03:29 PM
Right idea, wrong GMU'sMove it to 101 & 204!
totally agree!!! ;)
Post by: Sneaky on August 16, 2010, 08:20:41 PM
If you have a problem with populations being too low, scale back the doe hunting. If you have a problem with the buck to doe ratio and trophy quality in a herd, up the doe hunting to correct the ratio and provide more subsistence winter and spring forage to foster healthy animal growth. Point restrictions do little but create genetic problems down the line and frustrate hunters. Look at the giant 2 point mule deer in the okanogan if you need proof of that. Point restrictions also lead to irresponsible people shooting before they count points and leaving deer to lay and waste. Bad idea for whitetails.
Post by: huntnnw on August 17, 2010, 12:12:31 AM
Post by: Shootmoore on August 17, 2010, 05:14:27 AM
Other than my little joke I have no real info on this as it has been several years since I used to stomp around the NE corner of the state. I might call my great uncle and ask him if those "blankity blank deer" are still eating his alfalfa. :'(
Shootmoore
Post by: Sneaky on August 17, 2010, 08:19:44 AM
A few seasons ago I shot a 5x5 whitetail that was probably 4-6 years old or so. It was 19 1/2" wide and scored in the high 120's. When I shot it, I could only actually see two points. It was enough for me to know it was a buck. I would have had to let that deer walk with a 4 point restriction in place. A lot of people would have assumed it to be a nice deer and shot it without knowing how many points it had.
Shootmoore - Whitetails older than two years old may be smarter than me and have outsmarted me hundreds of times :chuckle:, but that is part of what I enjoy in hunting them, and for that reason, I have a vested interest in the way they are managed. Point restrictions for NE whitetails are not a good idea.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on August 17, 2010, 09:34:19 AM
The prevailing science suggests that mature bucks are more effective breeders and that having a more robust mature buck population will lead to better coverage of does on the first estrous, which increases fawn survival the following year. Doe hunts will also be addressed, but not until the herd #'s have rebounded some. There will be more surveys conducted to determine the population and help guide future management.
IMO- this proposal will help the herd and will lead to better hunting in the future. Give it a couple years and I think we'll all agree that it was the proper course of action.
Trophy management was never mentioned. If bigger antlers are a by-product, all the better.
Post by: bobcat on August 17, 2010, 10:45:16 AM
The prevailing science suggests that mature bucks are more effective breeders and that having a more robust mature buck population will lead to better coverage of does on the first estrous, which increases fawn survival the following year.
How will allowing hunters to only kill 4 point bucks create a "more robust mature buck population?" I don't get it. :dunno: If you want to protect the mature bucks shouldn't the harvest be limited to only bucks that have less than 4 points? (kinda like they do now with the spike only elk hunting)
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on August 17, 2010, 10:54:23 AM
Post by: bobcat on August 17, 2010, 10:56:19 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on August 17, 2010, 11:58:33 AM
There are other options for increasing the herd. Predator control, habitat enhancement, supplemental feeding...this is just one way that we can try to make a difference.
I am excited to see what kind of results we might get with a point restriction.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on August 17, 2010, 12:17:09 PM
Post by: Hangfire on August 21, 2010, 04:36:44 AM
I have talked to a number of land owners in the two units mentioned plus other hunters I know. Not one is in favor of the four point restriction.
I have not heard of any health or genetic benefit yet. It will definitely lower the total buck kill, even after implemented and the population stabilized.
A friend said: There is more to hunting than shooting a large buck, "I like to hunt with the grandkids". How many grandkids will stay with hunting, if there is little for them to shoot?
I can see a season where killing only spikes and four point or larger would change the genetics. Many whitetail in a normal food supply have two or three points the first year. The shooting of spikes would change the number of deer that have spikes the first year, if that is genetically controlled.
This is a proposal that was not brought forward by the average hunter. It was brought forward by guides, more money, County commissioners, more tourism, trophy hunters, easier bragging perception. If there is a place for this type of hunting in Washington, it is not in the two units where it is proposed.
Post by: PA BEN on August 21, 2010, 01:36:58 PM
Post by: buckhorn2 on August 21, 2010, 01:50:07 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on August 23, 2010, 06:14:18 AM
It's a 'pilot program' that would be in effect for ~5 years. We would have to defend the results at that time and if it's not helping the herd we would go back to the original season regs. There are lots of places to hunt up here that allow any buck hunting, let's give it a try and see what happens. There are likely going to be some benefits to the deer herd.
I read much of the OL article too... those seemed to be mostly related to social issues within hunt clubs. One article did mention that several years of trigger control had no effect on the herd...but they were on a small piece of land, possibly without neighbors acting the same way. This sort of landscape scale management would likely have some results.
I disagree about the 3 pt's getting poached...there are already laws about poaching, and there are lots of other units in the state with antler regulations. To my knowledge, there has not been any real evidence of that happening in the past in WA. Hopefully hunters are able to ID their targets before pulling the trigger.
Post by: Hangfire on August 23, 2010, 07:03:45 AM
It would appear that units 105, 108, 111or 113 would be better suited for a 5 year trial, although these units have a smaller population of whitetail.
What are some of the benefits to the deer herd by having a 4 point minimum? The biologists I have talked to in the past, when ask about this specific thing at a meeting in Colville, said, there was not any benefits to the herd. They also told me that the total buck kill will be reduced significantly, by going to a older buck population. Those bucks that would have been harvested as 1.5 year old will have to go a minimum of one more year with , one more winter to survive, one more year of predators and poachers, plus the deer killed and left because they were to small. A retired wildlife agent told me, when a unit in the Mason county area went to 3 point or better, he knew of 18 bulks shot and left in the woods in his area.
I would be in favor of limited hunting or none at the peak of the rut, all user groups, increased predator control, especially coyotes, protection of winter range and what ever else could be done along those lines. We have so much posted land that there are a lot of branched antlered bucks now. If you do not ant to shot a spike don't.
Post by: bobcat on August 23, 2010, 07:58:41 AM
A 4 point minimum rule may have somewhat of the same effect, in that it probably would reduce the number of hunters, just because many people would choose to hunt other units that don't have the restriction. Also, even 4 point bucks would be harder to kill, because people would need to take more time to be sure a deer had 4 points before shooting. Many times you only have a split second to shoot and when you have to count points first, the buck is much more likely to be gone before a hunter is able to get a shot off.
Post by: Hangfire on August 23, 2010, 10:56:43 AM
I would also like to see when a person does draw a anterless tag, when they are available. That antlerless tag is there only tag. They would not be allowed to shoot a antlered deer.
It would be most desireable to have land purchased in wintering areas and set aside as winter range, and managed as such. Under current budget restraints probably impossible.
Of course the presence of wolves in Washington and the anticipated population increase complicates everything. I would hate seeing bucks past up to be eaten later by wolves.
Post by: Hangfire on August 24, 2010, 12:13:56 PM
The article said in Texas, the 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks were not efficient breeders. I was told a few years ago, there was not a doe breeding problem in Washington. I was also told many years ago, by a very highly thought of biologist, that a doe that was not bred, almost never occurred. This fellow did a lot of checking of deer, including road kills in the winter, and said in his life time, he found very few unbred does.
Any one with a interest in this proposed change to the whitetail management, should attend one of the meetings if possible, or phone contact the DFW.
Post by: bobcat on August 24, 2010, 12:27:05 PM
Post by: yelp on August 24, 2010, 03:43:41 PM
I think one big thing the state really needs to look at after deer numbers have dropped in certain areas due to unfavorable weather conditions, is the taking of antlerless deer during archery seasons, and perhaps muzzleloader as well. Actually I think they may have made many units buck only this year, but I think they ought to do more of that, until deer numbers come back up. I think protecting the does would in some cases be much more effective than protecting the younger bucks.
I agree...I have seen what you describe in this state with "seasons and timing" with Mule Deer due to the migratory issues of does being bred first estrous and then migrating through an area towards wintering areas only to be harvested in an open GMU. Shooting pregnant does is a problem. Defeats the purpose of establishing buck escapement in my opinion.
This same group complained a few years back about to many deer in the colville valley..this led to the creation of the " Colville River" permit.
Post by: bobcat on August 24, 2010, 04:06:45 PM
If the deer population in GMU's 117 and 121 is in trouble, I would rather see them eliminate ALL harvest of does, before they go to a 4 point minimum on bucks.
I think I will be writing a letter tonight to the Fish & Wildlife commission regarding this proposal.