Hunting Washington Forum

Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: Hyde on October 13, 2010, 08:11:06 PM

Title: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Hyde on October 13, 2010, 08:11:06 PM: Hi all,

I am in the market for a new varmint rifle. Question is what caliber do you like and why? I have owned a couple varmint setups, but have never hunted with them (223 and a 204 Ruger). I sold both to fund other projects. I am leaning once again towards the 223 for low cost of ammo, but I have always wanted a 22-250. The 204 Ruger is a spitfire, but I wonder how long a barrel will last with one of those, and ammo isn't any cheaper than 22-250. I don't reload, no time for that. It seems that 223 ammo can be had for half the cost of the other calibers. Thanks in advance for your opinions.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: bobcat on October 13, 2010, 08:43:18 PM: I would definitely go with the 223. The 22-250 can outdo it when you get into real long shots, but for 90% of what you'll ever need, the 223 will do it, and for a lot less money.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on October 13, 2010, 09:39:40 PM: I have both, but would suggest a 223 for the first one. You'll shoot it more, and won't notice much difference in practical ranges. I can see myself getting rid of the fast guns, but I will always have a 223.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: demontang on October 14, 2010, 07:45:13 AM: yeah the .223 is a good round I sure miss my 22-250 some times but my AR is so much fun to shot and accurate too.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: king on October 14, 2010, 10:25:04 AM: The 223 has cheaper ammo but not quite the performance at long range (300+). We hunted prairie dogs in Montana and the .204 is the flattest shooting gun you will find. Any wind however, it drifts pretty good. The 22-250 is a flat shooting gun as well but if you plan to reload a lot, components for the 204 and 22-250 will be much more expensive, especially the first time when you buy brass.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: tlbradford on October 14, 2010, 10:39:44 AM: Quote from: king on October 14, 2010, 10:25:04 AM
...the .204 is the flattest shooting gun you will find. Any wind however, it drifts pretty good.

bad info. The .204 has a higher BC and drifts less than comparible calibers.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Rgrady35 on October 14, 2010, 10:41:40 AM: Have you notice that many people compare cartridges to the 22-250? Hmmmm... I think I would get the round that everyone compares other cartridges to. :twocents:
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: bobcat on October 14, 2010, 10:43:57 AM: Not me. I'd rather have a rifle I can afford to shoot.

The 22-250 is a good cartridge, but not needed unless all your shots are beyond 300 yards. :twocents:
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: 7mag. on October 14, 2010, 01:13:26 PM: I think that they will all do the job nicely. I like my 22-250 a lot, and chose it over a .223 because the .223 is so damn loud. 22-250 ammo is not expensive, just a little more than .223, unless you are buying the steel cased Wolf crap or the surplus junk, in bulk. It's all a matter of preference, they all kill varmints good.
Title: !Q
Post by: king on October 14, 2010, 01:26:23 PM: Quote from: tlbradford on October 14, 2010, 10:39:44 AM
Quote from: king on October 14, 2010, 10:25:04 AM
...the .204 is the flattest shooting gun you will find. Any wind however, it drifts pretty good.

bad info. The .204 has a higher BC and drifts less than comparible calibers.

Your telling me that a 40 grain .204 bullet has less drift than a 55 grain .22? Your dreaming! Even though the 250 may have a better BC for wind resistance, it is much heavier and will buck the wind. Try it. Also, at 500 yrds and the .204 is going to drop right around 26" and the 22-250 is around 28" with a 45 grain bullet (just about as light as you want to get with the 250) and the heavier bullets (55-60 grn) will drop even more. Which puts the .204 flatter shooting than some of the classic flat shooting rifles. 25-06, 338 RUM, .270, 7mm Mag, etc. You can look at ballistics all day but getting out and shooting these rifles you see what each one will do at different ranges in different wind situations.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: jdb on October 14, 2010, 02:42:14 PM: :peep:
Title: Re: !Q
Post by: tlbradford on October 14, 2010, 03:56:12 PM: Quote from: king on October 14, 2010, 01:26:23 PM
Quote from: tlbradford on October 14, 2010, 10:39:44 AM
Quote from: king on October 14, 2010, 10:25:04 AM
...the .204 is the flattest shooting gun you will find. Any wind however, it drifts pretty good.

bad info. The .204 has a higher BC and drifts less than comparible calibers.

Your telling me that a 40 grain .204 bullet has less drift than a 55 grain .22? Your dreaming! Even though the 250 may have a better BC for wind resistance, it is much heavier and will buck the wind. Try it. Also, at 500 yrds and the .204 is going to drop right around 26" and the 22-250 is around 28" with a 45 grain bullet (just about as light as you want to get with the 250) and the heavier bullets (55-60 grn) will drop even more. Which puts the .204 flatter shooting than some of the classic flat shooting rifles. 25-06, 338 RUM, .270, 7mm Mag, etc. You can look at ballistics all day but getting out and shooting these rifles you see what each one will do at different ranges in different wind situations.

Yes, I am actually stating that it is a fact that a 40 grain .204 bullet has less drift than any 55 grain .224. Its not a dream. No arguement on the trajectory, but you are flat wrong on the wind drift.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: bobcat on October 14, 2010, 03:59:28 PM: Hmm... now I think you got me wanting a .204. Maybe I'll just borrow my dad's- he never shoots it anyway.

Is a 204 good on coyotes out to 300 yards?
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: tlbradford on October 14, 2010, 04:13:16 PM: Yes. I actually shoot 32 grain vmax for coyotes because my rifle shot the factory loads better than the 40 grain. In my reloads I like the 35 grain berger for overall performance, but I don't shoot it enough the past few years to bother with reloading, to get that little extra performance. Factory loads shoot great.

98% of my experience with the .204 rouds have been on coyotes. Here is a link to a great article and forum for the .204.

http://www.204ruger.com/204_overview.php (http://www.204ruger.com/204_overview.php)

In all reality the drift and drop of the .22-250 and .204 are so close that any difference is measured in fractions of inches. Since they are so similar in performance this is the reason I recommend the .204 over the .22-250. You have less recoil, and burn less powder with the .204, and get similar results. The .204 also maintains it's energy really well for a small caliber. I am very comfortable shooting a coyote out to 400 yards with the .204. It doesn't happen that often, but it will still kill them cleanly with good placement, and has enough energy to put them down hard for a follow-up if you have poor placement.

If you are a serious reloader I would recommend building a .20 Tactical for the ideal .20 caliber rifle.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on October 14, 2010, 04:48:13 PM: i agree 100% with what tbradford has said. i am a 223 in ar-15 guy. i also own a 22-250 and there is no dought the 223 gets stomped by the 22-250. i do not own a 204 the reason is this. i like to shoot bullets with a little more grain to them like the 55g. because i can have a cougar come into some of my stands. will a 204 kill a cougar sure it will. but it is not legal in this state i will be darned if i am going to be packing a gun i cant shoot a cougar with. that would ruin me very fast to call a coug in and have to let it walk to be legal. :twocents: so i have the 223 and 22-250 don't need another small cal. i would get a 22-250 if i was you. another fine caliber but harder to find loaded ammo 4 is the 220 swift. it will shoot right with the 204 and 22-250.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Buckmark on October 14, 2010, 05:02:14 PM: 6mm rem
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Hyde on October 14, 2010, 07:18:00 PM: Thanks all for the comments. I'll have you know I have officially changed my mind about 5 times now since my original post. You all make good points. I had a 204 Ruger and that thing (Ruger #1 with heavy barrel) was a tack driver. I also had a 223 Remington VS, and it was also a shooter, but I didn't care for the balance of the rifle. I have always wanted the 22-250, and Carp brings up a valid and excellent point. What if you get that once in a lifetime chance at a cougar? (I've been in the woods 40 years now and have seen 1 cougar). Recoil is not a consideration for me, I have never been especially shy of recoil (except on a 378 Weatherby, OUCH). As I mentioned, I no longer reload, and have no plans to start. I know... I'm missing out on one of the pleasures of the game, but I simply don't have time. I have always wanted to hunt prairie dogs in Wyoming, and I assume the 22-250 may be a little much for that. For the coyote hunting I want to do, I think it really boils down to the 22-250, or the 223. I'm half a tick past center, leaning towards the 22-250...

I hope the debate continues for a while, I'm enjoying everyone's comments.
Title: Re: !Q
Post by: king on October 14, 2010, 07:21:45 PM: Quote from: tlbradford on October 14, 2010, 03:56:12 PM
Quote from: king on October 14, 2010, 01:26:23 PM
Quote from: tlbradford on October 14, 2010, 10:39:44 AM
Quote from: king on October 14, 2010, 10:25:04 AM
...the .204 is the flattest shooting gun you will find. Any wind however, it drifts pretty good.

bad info. The .204 has a higher BC and drifts less than comparible calibers.

Your telling me that a 40 grain .204 bullet has less drift than a 55 grain .22? Your dreaming! Even though the 250 may have a better BC for wind resistance, it is much heavier and will buck the wind. Try it. Also, at 500 yrds and the .204 is going to drop right around 26" and the 22-250 is around 28" with a 45 grain bullet (just about as light as you want to get with the 250) and the heavier bullets (55-60 grn) will drop even more. Which puts the .204 flatter shooting than some of the classic flat shooting rifles. 25-06, 338 RUM, .270, 7mm Mag, etc. You can look at ballistics all day but getting out and shooting these rifles you see what each one will do at different ranges in different wind situations.

Yes, I am actually stating that it is a fact that a 40 grain .204 bullet has less drift than any 55 grain .224. Its not a dream. No arguement on the trajectory, but you are flat wrong on the wind drift.
Well I hate to back out of this argument but I can sure as heck tell you that if I had a yote standing at 300 with a 15 mph wind that I would pick the 22-250 every day of the week. Whatever works for you is respectable.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: danceswitharrows on October 14, 2010, 07:26:47 PM: 223 if you want the AR platform but if you want a real rifle then 22-250 or 204.
I prefer my 204 :twocents:
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Big10gauge on October 14, 2010, 07:35:27 PM: 20 tac in AR if you want a real coyote gun :P
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: jjhunter on October 14, 2010, 07:58:27 PM: Les Baer also makes a nice .204.... :chuckle:

After 300 or so coyote kills, I would go with the .204, hands down. I shot a 22-250 from ages 11-24. It is a great round - the "King of Varmint Cartridges". However, from 0-500 yards, the .204 is without peer. My go-to is a Cooper MTV in .204. It is the deadliest rifle I have ever had in my hands - pure magic. I shoot 40 grain v-max.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Big10gauge on October 14, 2010, 09:00:15 PM: So is this turned into a hijacked thread for .20 cal rifles? Almost new, one owner, slightly over 100 coyotes on this one :rolleyes:
.204
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: seth30 on October 14, 2010, 09:02:04 PM: I have a 223 bolt action that shoots straight and true
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Hyde on October 14, 2010, 09:33:26 PM: Quote from: Big10gauge on October 14, 2010, 09:00:15 PM
So is this turned into a hijacked thread for .20 cal rifles? Almost new, one owner, slightly over 100 coyotes on this one :rolleyes:
.204

Sweet camo job. How did you do the camo? I had a Stag lefty, but it went with the rest that got sold. I'll get another one some day.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Big10gauge on October 15, 2010, 06:27:52 AM: It's really easy to do just make sure you clean it real good then spray on a base coat which was the tan, then use some sea sponge and dip it in one of the other colors and apply. After it dries spray with a matte clear coat.

More

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=117940&Number=1087052#Post1087052 (http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=117940&Number=1087052#Post1087052)
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on October 15, 2010, 07:02:28 AM: "I no longer reload, and have no plans to start. I know... I'm missing out on one of the pleasures of the game, but I simply don't have time. I have always wanted to hunt prairie dogs in Wyoming, and I assume the 22-250 may be a little much for that."

22-250 shells can be found just about any place. along with the 223 shells. the 22-250 shells are more but not to spendy. the 22-250 is a great prairie dog round and definanlty not to much for them. i know a lot of guys that hunt with with 22-250. it is a very good cal. there is nothing wrong with any of the cals listed. they all can get the job done.

10mph shift 100% value

204rug 32grain silver tip: 0 at 100yards wd 1" energy 860lbs 250 yards -3.5" wd 6.8 energy 540lbs
500 yards -36" wd 32.8" energy 221lbs

22-250 50 garin silver tip: 0 at 100yards wd 1" energy 1240lbs 250yards -3.9" wd 6 energy 822lbs
500 yards -37" wd 29" energy 383lbs

i like to be able to have a bigger bullet with more energy down range myself. other then energy they shoot almost the same for tradjectory and close in wind drift but the software that i use says 3" more with the 32grain 204. the energy is what is big to me, a little under double the 204's energy at 500 yards. not bashing any thing just useful info for you to make up you mind with. i have nothing against any of the cals listed. they will all "work".
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: rbros on October 15, 2010, 07:43:01 AM: You could split the difference and get a 223AI. Performance is very, very close to a 22-250, yet uses less powder and brass is cheaper. It is a reload only, but you can fire factory 223's in also. Just a thought.

I have both and build more 223AI's than I do 22-250's for guys. 75gr bullets out of a 22" barrel at 3100 is what most guys use. 50's seem to run around the 3500fps mark using around 28gr of powder.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: tlbradford on October 15, 2010, 10:43:31 AM: carpsniper - If energy is the most important thing to you than you should not use the 32 grain vmax. You should use 40 grain vmax, 39 bk's, 45 sp's. Your comparison should be done with a heavier bullet to be fair.

Back to real life performance, which is what king and most folks are interested in, the 32 grain vmax consistently enters the body cavity of a coyote and explodes with no exit. It is not the downrange energy that kills the coyote, it is the severe trauma to internal organs. This performance is consistent enough from ranges of 50 yards to 300 yards to make it my factory load of choice. This statement is only meant for hunting situations that I encounter when calling coyotes for 95% of my stands. This means Eastern Washington terrain, with virtually no chance of calling in a cougar, and distances of 5 yards to 500 yards. :twocents:

There are better reloads and factory loads for better ballistics. There are better bullet choices for Western Washington hunters who might encounter a cougar. (Believe me I would shoot a called in cougar with a 39 bk or higher weight bullet in a heartbeat if I called it in, and would not have the slightest doubt it would kill cleanly) There are better choices for prairie dog shooters, the barnes varmint grenade for one.

King - you don't have to back out of any arguement, we are here to discuss things in a way that others may learn from. You gave a ton of good info in your post, and I merely corrected a very small fraction of it so folks wouldn't get the wrong impression. FWIW, you are correct that my 32 grain vmax which I like to shoot, will drift more in the wind than your .224 rounds at a variety of bullet weights. :brew:

For you reloaders out there, here is a great excel spreadsheet with a variety of bc's for most of the bullets that are manufactured.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Big10gauge on October 15, 2010, 11:47:16 AM: Wasn't it about this time last year that we had the .204 / .224 debate? :rolleyes:

.204 32 gr Hornady factory load with 100 yrd zero
100yrd Drop 0 wind def .90" 965KE
250yd Drop .18 wind def 6.05" 634 KE
500yd Drop 24.78 wind def 28.46" 293 KE

.204 40 gr Hornady factory load with 100 yrd zero
100yrd Drop 0 wind def .74" 1115 KE
250yd Drop 1.28 wind def 4.84" 808 KE
500yd Drop 24.34 wind def 21.84" 455 KE
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Special T on October 15, 2010, 11:58:11 AM: I shot a Colt AR .223 with the Nikon BDR for yotes last friday... WOW! it had a light and 20 in barrel... I would buy one in a heart beat if i had the $1600 for the package... I've always wanted a 22-250 but could never find a deal on one... I guess if i'm gona drop $800 for a dedicated preditor rifle i might as well get a semi auto and go all the way... If i can afford the $800 then what the hell is another $800. I'm getting a little work done to my 06 right now and am working with a custome reloader to try and work up a good accelerator round.... even if that don't work my 06 will still kill yotes, even if its not as sexy as ripid firing and walking it in on a yote at 450 yards. :twocents:
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: nontypical176 on October 15, 2010, 04:42:41 PM: Tell you what. Got me a 17 hmr, because my neighbor thinks my 22-250 is loud (It is) and I wanted to be the nice neighbor, not nice enough to use my 10/22, but nice enough. Shoot lots of critters around my place coons, couple bobcats, coyotes, opossum and such. That 17 is super fun to shoot, fairly quiet, lethal on everything I've shot at, all one shot kills and the price tag was like $250 dollars. Now it aint no cougar gun, the farthest I've shot was a coyote at 250 yards and during target practice there was some deffinent wind drift, but I had an old scope laying around and needed a gun to put it on.

Its Super fun to shoot, lots more poop than my 10/22, accurate and not near as loud as my 22-250. Great to shoot prairie dogs with and has put the hammer on a couple coyotes. A racoon is the only thing its hit that has put up any struggle(minimal) after impact. That little gun is gonna kill a lot of varmints and can't say it enough.....I just love to shoot it.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Hyde on October 15, 2010, 06:48:41 PM: I ordered the 22-250. I was a tick away from getting the 223, but I've always wanted a 22-250. It will be here in a week. Now on to a scope...

Thanks to all for the comments.
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Special T on October 15, 2010, 07:18:33 PM: look at getting the Nikon BDS it works for the 223 and the 22-250 i've been told... just zero at 200 and your good. :twocents:
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: dontgetcrabs on October 15, 2010, 08:02:22 PM: Quote from: Hyde on October 15, 2010, 06:48:41 PM
I ordered the 22-250. I was a tick away from getting the 223, but I've always wanted a 22-250. It will be here in a week. Now on to a scope...

Thanks to all for the comments.

You won't be disappointed... :tup:
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on October 15, 2010, 10:06:30 PM: "carpsniper - If energy is the most important thing to you than you should not use the 32 grain vmax. You should use 40 grain vmax, 39 bk's, 45 sp's. Your comparison should be done with a heavier bullet to be fair."

the software i used only had a listed load for the 204 with a 32 grain bullet so i did the best i could with what i had. if it had a 40 grain i would have used it. but i did not have the option to do so. i still don't understand why the software i used says 0 at 100 with a 32g is -36" and big10gauge has -24.78" with the same bullet weight, thats 11" of diffrence. :dunno: i also do not see how a 40 grain bullet with the same 0 at 100 could be flatter shooting then the 32grain bullet. at -24.34 for the 40 grain bullet. i can understand wind drift but this info seems off to me. :twocents:
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on October 15, 2010, 10:09:58 PM: Quote from: Hyde on October 15, 2010, 06:48:41 PM
I ordered the 22-250. I was a tick away from getting the 223, but I've always wanted a 22-250. It will be here in a week. Now on to a scope...

Thanks to all for the comments.

congrats to you on your purchase :IBCOOL: you will be happy with that cal :IBCOOL:
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Special T on October 15, 2010, 10:56:14 PM: show me where it says no Fmj...
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: Big10gauge on October 16, 2010, 08:53:39 AM: Quote from: carpsniperg2 on October 15, 2010, 10:06:30 PM
"carpsniper - If energy is the most important thing to you than you should not use the 32 grain vmax. You should use 40 grain vmax, 39 bk's, 45 sp's. Your comparison should be done with a heavier bullet to be fair."

the software i used only had a listed load for the 204 with a 32 grain bullet so i did the best i could with what i had. if it had a 40 grain i would have used it. but i did not have the option to do so. i still don't understand why the software i used says 0 at 100 with a 32g is -36" and big10gauge has -24.78" with the same bullet weight, thats 11" of diffrence. :dunno: i also do not see how a 40 grain bullet with the same 0 at 100 could be flatter shooting then the 32grain bullet. at -24.34 for the 40 grain bullet. i can understand wind drift but this info seems off to me. :twocents:

Probably scope height difference I use 2.75 since I shoot a AR for drop
Title: Re: Varmint Rifle caliber?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on October 16, 2010, 11:22:32 PM: that could be it as well. i don't think the software is to smart about diffrent scope heights :chuckle: