Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: sportsman002001 on November 30, 2010, 09:37:18 AM

Title: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: sportsman002001 on November 30, 2010, 09:37:18 AM: I am looking for opions on this topic. Here is a situation that happend to one of the guys in our camp this year.
We are archery hunting in the winston unit and one of our guys shot an elk off the 1100 down toward the green river and the elk ended up bedding down along the green river. There were some guys driving the 1000 line in the Margret unit when they seen this cow they stopped and she got up and they put an arrow into her.
Needless to say they tried to claim the elk but once they were told we would call the game department and explain that they shot from the Margret to the winston unit they backed off. We had seen 2 game wardens up there and asked them if you can legally shoot from the Margret into the winston unit and they could not answer that question.

So looking for your guys opion on this subject.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 30, 2010, 09:51:37 AM: Not an enforcement officer, but in my opinion, if you are in the unit, kind of falls into the "From, along, or across" rule.
If you shoot while you are in a unit, you are legaly hunting in that unit, no matter where your target is.
I do know that if you shoot an animal in the Winston, and it runs into the Margaret, you better get hold of a warden before tagging, gutting, or anything,
I know a guy that was ticketed, it was dissmissed after explaining to the judge, (and might have gotten the warden to listen to him but ran his mouth).
But still a hassle.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bankwalker on November 30, 2010, 10:28:57 AM: if both units are open for elk. and the shot elk is legal in BOTH units then i see no reason for concern........
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: sportsman002001 on November 30, 2010, 10:40:42 AM: The Margret unit is a permit only unit and winston is general unit...
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bobcat on November 30, 2010, 10:44:08 AM: Margaret is permit only. But if they were in the area legally, I don't see why it wouldn't be legal to shoot an animal that was on the other side of the boundary, in a GMU that was open for elk hunting. I could see possibly being written up for it by the game warden, but then having it dropped in court. I don't see how they could make that stick. There is nothing in the law that specifically says you have to be standing in the same GMU as the animal that you shoot.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bobcat on November 30, 2010, 10:45:05 AM: The other question I'd have though, is did they shoot from the road? If so, then THAT would be illegal.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 30, 2010, 10:49:26 AM: I know a guy that got ticketed for hunting in a closed unit, he was walking down the road on the 3330 in Manastash during late season,
Taneum, across the creek was open.
The game warden wrote him a citation because he had a tag in his pocket, broadheads in his quiver, and was in a closed area.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 30, 2010, 10:51:26 AM: And yes, I do know a lot of guys that have received tickets., comes from hunting with idiots (in the past 32 years), and the last one is even a WSP officer.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: the1rod on November 30, 2010, 11:04:09 AM: if the elk was legal in both units then i dont see any reason why it would be an issue. i would have no problem shooting across a gmu boundary if i knew both sides were legal, unless the boundary was a road.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Alan K on November 30, 2010, 11:11:27 AM: Quote from: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 30, 2010, 10:49:26 AM
I know a guy that got ticketed for hunting in a closed unit, he was walking down the road on the 3330 in Manastash during late season,
Taneum, across the creek was open.
The game warden wrote him a citation because he had a tag in his pocket, broadheads in his quiver, and was in a closed area.

Now that's a bunch of BS! I'm sure I've driven through units that aren't open with my tag in my pocket and rifle by my side. . . Sounds to me like that GW was either a moron or the guy ran his mouth to him.

I think that so long as the animal is harvested in a legal unit it should be just fine. Doesn't particularly matter where the shot was fired from in my opinion if the animal itself is in the open unit. :dunno:
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bullcanyon on November 30, 2010, 11:11:42 AM: Interesting. My buddies lost two elk to people down there on friday. First one with a sub 100 yd blood trail. Buddy went to get help and come back to a guy claiming his son dropped it in its tracks. Second one had guys taking up his blood trail while he was waiting for the cow to expire. Guess one needs to just chase right after em and not let em lay down and die. He's too easy going and wanted to avoid controversy. Wtf is wrong with people?? Tagging a cow is so important that you will claim one that you didn't hunt yourself. Ill be honest. Im not as easy going and would of probably chose a different path than my buddy. Although I will admit that it would of probably been the wrong choice. Im not letting some puke steal from me.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Curly on November 30, 2010, 11:24:22 AM: How could it possibly not be legal to shoot from the Margaret into the Winston. :dunno:

The other way around though, would be an interesting question. What if a guy was to shoot a cow in the Winston and it ran over into the Margaret? I would think that you would not be allowed to finish it off in a unit that is not open to you.....
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: sportsman002001 on November 30, 2010, 01:16:15 PM: How could it possibly not be legal to shoot from the Margaret into the Winston.

The Margaret unit is a permit only unit and to the knowledge we gathered these guys did not have a Margaret permit.
Now if they had a Magaret permit I would say it would be okay because they would be legal in both units.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Curly on November 30, 2010, 01:23:46 PM: Oh, I see now. I assumed they had a Margaret permit. That is a good question then. Kind of a grey area..........
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: sportsman002001 on November 30, 2010, 01:28:04 PM: Yes very grey area. Two game wardens could not even answer that question. They stated they would probly write the ticket and let the judge figure it out.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: DIGGER69R on November 30, 2010, 02:23:45 PM: NO

If I'm standing in the Margaret I'm hunting from the Margaret and I better have a permit to elk hunt from the Margaret.
If I am standing in the Winston and shoot an elk in the Margaret I better have permit to hunt the Margaret.

No grey area for me at all.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 30, 2010, 07:49:48 PM: Quote from: DIGGER69R on November 30, 2010, 02:23:45 PM
NO

If I'm standing in the Margaret I'm hunting from the Margaret and I better have a permit to elk hunt from the Margaret.
If I am standing in the Winston and shoot an elk in the Margaret I better have permit to hunt the Margaret.

No grey area for me at all.
My point.. :yeah:
And in response to
Quote
Now that's a bunch of BS! I'm sure I've driven through units that aren't open with my tag in my pocket and rifle by my side. . . Sounds to me like that GW was either a moron or the guy ran his mouth to him.

He was walking on the road, not driving.
If you are in your truck with your weapon, you are not hunting.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bobcat on November 30, 2010, 07:56:54 PM: If you're walking you're not necessarily hunting either. You may have to walk through a closed unit to get into an open unit.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 30, 2010, 08:04:32 PM: Quote from: bobcat on November 30, 2010, 07:56:54 PM
If you're walking you're not necessarily hunting either. You may have to walk through a closed unit to get into an open unit.
As I stated, he was walking down the 3330, in the Manastash unit, the boundary for Taneum is the Creek in bottom.
He stopped to talk to the officer, as they were aquainted, (guy was an Explorer with washington State patrol in Ellensburg)
Was cited, plead guilty, and was told to write a "letter of apology" to commanding officer.
No matter, he was on the wrong side of the line, and had to explain it to the judge, his CO told him what he had to do to respond to the charge.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Bob33 on November 30, 2010, 08:11:30 PM: If you are shooting in a closed unit at an animal, you are hunting in a closed area. Hunting is not just killing, or even shooting for that matter. :bdid:
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 30, 2010, 08:45:16 PM: Quote from: Bob33 on November 30, 2010, 08:11:30 PM
If you are shooting in a closed unit at an animal, you are hunting in a closed area. Hunting is not just killing, or even shooting for that matter. :bdid:
"hunting" is the act, no matter the intent, and is up to the officers discretion on whether to write a citation.
If you are inside the boundary of an area not open to you, you must travel through it.
If you shoot at ANYTHING while you are inside said boundary you are demonstrating intent.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: ICEMAN on November 30, 2010, 08:48:17 PM: So did the cow die and get wasted?
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bobcat on November 30, 2010, 08:50:05 PM: Sounded to me like the original shooter got it.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Bob33 on December 01, 2010, 08:34:56 AM: "To Hunt: Any effort to kill, capture, injure, or harass a wild animal or wild bird."
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bobcat on December 01, 2010, 08:46:00 AM: Still a pretty "grey" area to me. If you were standing 1 inch into the closed GMU and shot an animal in the open GMU, I don't see the problem. If technically, by the law, you could be considered to be "hunting" in a closed unit, so what? The animal was harvested in a unit that is open for the harvest of animals. Same thing, if you were 25 yards into the closed GMU. As long as the boundary isn't a road and you're shooting from, or across the road, what is the problem? If the opportunity ever comes up where I'm in a closed unit and a legal animal is in an open unit, I will take the shot.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Bob33 on December 01, 2010, 08:54:10 AM: Consider someone who walks 100 yards into an area closed to hunting with the intent to move animals into an area open to hunting. He kills nothing, and does not even have a gun. Is he guilty?

You bet: hunting in a closed area. I've seen that happen.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bobcat on December 01, 2010, 08:55:25 AM: I guess it all depends on "intent."
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Bob33 on December 01, 2010, 09:00:16 AM: I think it does depend on intent. I can walk 100 yards into Mount Rainier National Park with a camera to take pictures of elk. However, if my friend is standing at the border with a rifle in his hand I'll most likely get cited.

Another interesting test case that I've heard about is shooting from an area open to hunting, across an area not open to hunting, at an animal in an area open to hunting but not adjacent to the shooter. In that case the bullet is travelling over illegal ground, but neither the hunter nor the game is illegal.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bigtex on December 01, 2010, 09:39:25 AM: What a law enforcement officer would try to do in this situation is to get the person to admit to hunting. Lets say your walking in a closed area and an officer comes up. A very common question the officer would use is "Hows the hunting?" If you essentially say anything except "I'm not hunting/hunting here/this area" then you will have a hard time fighting it in court. A couple years ago the White River unit switched to permit only but there were still a ton of people hunting it, WDFW did an emphasis patrol and would contact the hunters and start out by saying "Hows the elk hunting?". People would say something like "It's going slow" "Haven't seen a shooter" etc. Well the person just admitted to elk hunting because they didn't say "I'm not elk hunting". Luckily these people just got written warnings since it was an area that was open for general season for many years and then went permit only. When many WDFW Officers contact people fishing closed waters they start out by asking "hows the fishing?" well most people would say something like "slow" "pretty good" etc. Well the person just admitted to fishing, and according to the regs the river is closed.

It's kind of like the "how much have you had to drink tonight sir?" question.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: secamd1 on December 01, 2010, 11:25:26 AM: As someone in law enforcement, I am confident through research that WAC 332-52-145, RCW 77.15 and 9A has no statement of discharging a firearm or dangerous weapon across a body of water. It makes only references to Residences, Buildings, Roads, Railroad tracks, Structures, Dwellings, Applicances ect...Taking game across GMU's is another story. Where the game is located determines how that game can be harvested. If someone is in a Permit Only GMU and takes a game in a general unit, it is legal as long as both GMUs are open to legal hunting at the same time. If someone is hunting in a general hunting GMU, they cannot take game in a Permit Only GMU, period, without the permit. Hopefully, this clarifies.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bobcat on December 01, 2010, 11:37:26 AM: Did anybody say anything about it being illegal to shoot over water ???
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: secamd1 on December 01, 2010, 11:45:40 AM: "There were some guys driving the 1000 line in the Margret unit when they seen this cow they stopped and she got up and they put an arrow into her. Needless to say they tried to claim the elk but once they were told we would call the game department and explain that they shot from the Margret to the winston unit they backed off."

This is the original statement so I gathered all the facts, researched the law and made my interpretation of the statute. In some states ie... Oregon it is illegal to discharge weapons against bodies of water. I know we don't live in Oregon but it matters. Every instance is different. :twocents:
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: GUHunter on December 01, 2010, 11:48:31 AM: My thought is that both game and hunter must both be within the open unit at the time of the shot. I don't care if you're walking through a closed unit with rifle/bow/muzzleloader in hand. If you don't take a shot from that closed unit or into a closed unit, I see nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Curly on December 01, 2010, 12:04:32 PM: The boundary is the Green River and I believe the 1000 line is in the Margaret, so I guess that might mean that they shot across the river to kill the cow. ???

What about a scenario like this: Say the cow makes it across the river and the guys that shot it legally in the Winston track it and follow it across the river. They wouldn't legally be able to finish it off would they? Apparently they shouldn't even enter the Margaret Unit tracking the cow?
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Bob33 on December 01, 2010, 12:07:25 PM: Quote from: Curly on December 01, 2010, 12:04:32 PM
The boundary is the Green River and I believe the 1000 line is in the Margaret, so I guess that might mean that they shot across the river to kill the cow. ???

What about a scenario like this: Say the cow makes it across the river and the guys that shot it legally in the Winston track it and follow it across the river. They wouldn't legally be able to finish it off would they? Apparently they shouldn't even enter the Margaret Unit tracking the cow?
Your interpretation is correct. You could not legally finish off the animal in the closed unit. In fact, I don't believe you could legally harvest it without permission. I had a friend that shot an elk that ran 20 yards into a national park. Could not retrieve it without permission.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: steeleywhopper on December 01, 2010, 02:43:31 PM: Quote from: DIGGER69R on November 30, 2010, 02:23:45 PM
NO

If I'm standing in the Margaret I'm hunting from the Margaret and I better have a permit to elk hunt from the Margaret.
If I am standing in the Winston and shoot an elk in the Margaret I better have permit to hunt the Margaret.

No grey area for me at all.

I agree with this one 100%! No frills and no gimmicks, just common sense. Zero gray area here. :dunno:
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: bobcat on December 01, 2010, 02:50:50 PM: I just can't agree with that. To me if the animal is in the open unit, it's legal. I don't care where I happen to be standing. What if the only way to see into a certain area in the open GMU is from the other side of a creek or trail, which also happens to be the GMY boundary. If I'm standing 1 foot on the other side of the boundary and shoot an animal that is 300 yards into the open GMU, I just don't see why that is a problem.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: fisheral87 on December 01, 2010, 03:15:49 PM: Quote
They stated they would probly write the ticket and let the judge figure it out.

Sucks, but until they color in the gray areas in the regs this will be standard for those situations.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: HntnFsh on December 01, 2010, 05:27:10 PM: Quote from: bobcat on November 30, 2010, 10:45:05 AM
The other question I'd have though, is did they shoot from the road? If so, then THAT would be illegal.

In that area it wouldnt be illegal because they are all Weyco rds.No state or county rds in there.
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Bob33 on December 01, 2010, 05:51:15 PM: Quote from: HntnFsh on December 01, 2010, 05:27:10 PM
Quote from: bobcat on November 30, 2010, 10:45:05 AM
The other question I'd have though, is did they shoot from the road? If so, then THAT would be illegal.

In that area it wouldnt be illegal because they are all Weyco rds.No state or county rds in there.
And to muddy the waters even more...it would only be illegal on public roads if done "negligently"...
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: ICEMAN on December 01, 2010, 06:03:43 PM: So what happened to the elk?
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: Bob33 on December 01, 2010, 06:05:40 PM: Quote from: ICEMAN on December 01, 2010, 06:03:43 PM
So what happened to the elk?
I think it died from stress: the arguments over whether or not it was shot legally finally put it down? :chuckle:
Title: Re: Shooting elk from GMU 524 into GMU 520
Post by: sportsman002001 on December 01, 2010, 06:55:28 PM: Hey thanks for all the info and input. The guy that shot the elk in our camp ended up with the elk and it is in a cooler.
I was just looking for others opion and thanks to all that responded.