Post by: billythekidrock on December 11, 2010, 06:21:33 AM
Meeting:
Agenda ltem 1l:
Prepared By:
Presented By:
December 24,2010
Multiple Season Permit Levels - Rule Briefing, public Hearing, and Rule Action
Dave Ware
Dave Ware, Game Division Manager, Wildlife program
Background:
Department staff will brief the Commission on proposed amendments to WAC 232-28-294 Multiple
season big game permits.
Multiple season deer_and elk permits have been popular with hunters since they were authorized
by the Legislature_ in 20_06. Each year over 8,000 applications are submitted foi 2,ooo deer permits
and another 8,000 applications for 600 elk permits. However, there have been some issueswith
successful applicants deciding not to purchase the $180 permit. The Department has tried several
ways to ensure that all the available permits are purchased each year. Ôonducting multiple
drawings and providing a first come first served opportunity for purchases have beén unsuccessful.
We are p_roposing to simplify the process so that only one drawing is conducted and everyone
drawn will be able to purchase a permit if they choose. Based on past purchasing history, we plan
to draw 4,000 names for the deer permits and 850 names for the elk permits. Wã are exþecting
about the same number of permits authorized for sale last year by the Commission (2,00'0 deer-and
600 elk) to be ourchased.
Policy lssue(s) you are bringing to the commission for consideration: o Provide a variety of hunting opportunities for the public including this opportunity to hunt during
archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm seasons.
Public involvement process used and what you learned:
These proposed recommendations were sent to approximately 450 organizations and individuals in
October for their review and consideration. These organizations and individuals were also informed
of the opportunity to provide public testimony at the December Commission meeting in Olympia.
This is a small change to a process for allocating permits and is likely to have very iimiteO-intbrest
from the public. The standard code reviser process for rule making will allow ampte opportunity for
comment.
Action requested (identify the specific Gommission decisions you are seeking):
Amend wAc 232-28-294 Multiple season big game permits, aspresented.
Draft motion language:
I move to amend WAC 232-28-294, as proposed.
Justification for Gommission action:
simplifies the allocation of multiple season permits for deer and elk hunting.
Gommunications plan: o Washington State Register o Hunting Pamphlets . Web Site o News Release
Post by: billythekidrock on December 11, 2010, 06:23:53 AM
Post by: Bob33 on December 11, 2010, 06:27:38 AM
Post by: bobcat on December 11, 2010, 06:28:00 AM
Post by: billythekidrock on December 11, 2010, 06:31:45 AM
I would probably apply for them if I had a ML.
Post by: grundy53 on December 11, 2010, 07:18:22 AM
"GREEN SHEET''
Meeting:
Agenda ltem 1l:
Prepared By:
Presented By:
December 24,2010
Multiple Season Permit Levels - Rule Briefing, public Hearing, and Rule Action
Dave Ware
Dave Ware, Game Division Manager, Wildlife program
Background:
Department staff will brief the Commission on proposed amendments to WAC 232-28-294 Multiple
season big game permits.
Multiple season deer_and elk permits have been popular with hunters since they were authorized
by the Legislature_ in 20_06. Each year over 8,000 applications are submitted foi 2,ooo deer permits
and another 8,000 applications for 600 elk permits. However, there have been some issueswith
successful applicants deciding not to purchase the $180 permit. The Department has tried several
ways to ensure that all the available permits are purchased each year. Wã are exþecting
about the same number of permits authorized for sale last year by the Commission (2,00'0 deer-and
600 elk) to be ourchased.Ôonducting multiple
drawings and providing a first come first served opportunity for purchases have beén unsuccessful.
We are p_roposing to simplify the process so that only one drawing is conducted and everyone
drawn will be able to purchase a permit if they choose. Based on past purchasing history, we plan
to draw 4,000 names for the deer permits and 850 names for the elk permits.
Policy lssue(s) you are bringing to the commission for consideration: o Provide a variety of hunting opportunities for the public including this opportunity to hunt during
archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm seasons.
Public involvement process used and what you learned:
These proposed recommendations were sent to approximately 450 organizations and individuals in
October for their review and consideration. These organizations and individuals were also informed
of the opportunity to provide public testimony at the December Commission meeting in Olympia.
This is a small change to a process for allocating permits and is likely to have very iimiteO-intbrest
from the public. The standard code reviser process for rule making will allow ampte opportunity for
comment.
Action requested (identify the specific Gommission decisions you are seeking):
Amend wAc 232-28-294 Multiple season big game permits, aspresented.
Draft motion language:
I move to amend WAC 232-28-294, as proposed.
Justification for Gommission action:
simplifies the allocation of multiple season permits for deer and elk hunting.
Gommunications plan: o Washington State Register o Hunting Pamphlets . Web Site o News Release
I might be confused but to me it sounds like they are going to issue out the same amount of permits. They are just going to draw more names to try and make sure they sell all of the permits.... i could be wrong though.
Post by: bobcat on December 11, 2010, 10:23:25 AM
The proposal also says:
Quote
everyone drawn will be able to purchase a permit if they choose
So if people in general are feeling rich, it could happen that all 4000 people will buy the permit.
Post by: grundy53 on December 11, 2010, 10:25:02 AM
Post by: sportsman002001 on December 11, 2010, 10:41:15 AM
Post by: bobcat on December 11, 2010, 10:54:03 AM
Quote
Reasons supporting proposal:
Each year, approximately 16,000 applications are received for these permits, and in recent years, 2,600 are awarded.
However, in 2010, only about 55% of those people who were awarded deer permits and 85% of those awarded elk
permits ended up purchasing the permits. We are proposing to draw more names, although the number of hunters who
will purchase the permits in 2011 is expected to be the same number (2,600) allocated in 2010.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2010/wsr_10-21-097.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2010/wsr_10-21-097.pdf)
Post by: luvtohnt on December 11, 2010, 11:15:23 AM
Brandon
Post by: bobcat on December 11, 2010, 11:59:16 AM
Post by: chester on December 11, 2010, 01:08:53 PM
I heard that they drew more names this year too hoping that all would sell and it was on a first come first serve basis. Do we know if they all sold or not? If not did they do additional draws? I know years past they did additional draws till all were sold.
Im not thinking they did.I kept getting post cards in the mail asking and reminding to go buy one.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on December 11, 2010, 01:14:04 PM
I cannot see how they would lose out ? :dunno:
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on December 11, 2010, 01:16:38 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 11, 2010, 02:54:16 PM
And if you are drawn, and don't buy the permit, then you can no longer apply... :stup:
That would suck for me- I drew deer and elk the very first year they had the multi-season permits, and didn't buy either one. Of course the deer doesn't really count, because it wasn't until summer that they sent me a letter saying I had been drawn for the multi-season deer (must have been the 3rd or 4th drawing)
I didn't gain a point for either one, and haven't applied since. Sorry if I pissed you off stiknstring. :'(
Post by: chester on December 11, 2010, 02:55:43 PM
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on December 11, 2010, 10:17:24 PM
#1 To extend my season
#2 To have to opportunity to hunt with my bow for the first time and if I didn't kill anything I still had rifle season. No pressure.
Post by: Alan K on December 11, 2010, 10:20:06 PM
Post by: Alan K on December 11, 2010, 10:22:47 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on December 12, 2010, 03:08:53 PM
Quote
I didn't gain a point for either one, and haven't applied since. Sorry if I pissed you off stiknstringYou did not piss me off, it is just that if you are not going to follow through, why initiate the process, lots of complaints about the application process, but a lot of the troubles and difficulty in drawing is due to people applying, reducing the odds, then , well you get the idea...
And the reason I still apply without necessarily having the intention of buying is to at least build points. I guess I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a way to put in for ghost points for the multiseason permits.Actually that was true until next year, I had to apply, but you can be damn sure that if I was drawn, I would have scraped up the $$., It is just the shear numbers of non-purchasing that surprises me, I mean almost 50%??
Post by: bigpaw 77 on December 15, 2010, 07:04:01 PM
Post by: GEARHEAD on December 15, 2010, 07:10:17 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on December 18, 2010, 03:42:05 PM
People only have so much time off and they can only kill one deer or elk for crying out loud. Go back to simpler regulations, simpler seasons and more opportunity for everyone. Also go back to reduced staff levels in the office, both HQ and Regional. If you want to hunt by different methods and extend your opportunity, do it.....it's self regulating for the most part. Today's management schemes are just that...schemes. No science to it. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2010, 03:53:09 PM
Today's management schemes are just that...schemes. No science to it. :twocents:
I agree with that statement. There is no management whatsoever as far as regulating the number of hunters in each GMU. It's totally random and seems like the WDFW just sets the seasons and hopes for the best.
People only have so much time off and they can only kill one deer or elk for crying out loud. Go back to simpler regulations, simpler seasons and more opportunity for everyone.
I hear this a lot and it's just a silly argument. Think about it. Each person is allowed only one but how many actually are harvested per person? Probably somewhere around 1 deer per 3 to 4 people, and 1 elk for every 10 hunters.
Let everyone hunt ALL the seasons and watch the success rates go up. What if they gave us so much time (opportunity) to hunt, that EVERY hunter actually DID kill an elk and a deer each year? There wouldn't be anything left after a couple of years!
Post by: Gutpile on December 18, 2010, 03:56:25 PM
And if you are drawn, and don't buy the permit, then you can no longer apply... :stup:
Ouch!!! I got drawn for the MS Deer Tag this year and didn't buy it. I wish I would have now but I didn't. Do you mind if I apply again this year? Please. :dunno:
Post by: chester on December 18, 2010, 04:08:10 PM
And if you are drawn, and don't buy the permit, then you can no longer apply... :stup:
Ouch!!! I got drawn for the MS Deer Tag this year and didn't buy it. I wish I would have now but I didn't. Do you mind if I apply again this year? Please. :dunno:
I know harsh. I did the same thing, but i filled my general tag. kinda glad i save $180 on my deer. :chuckle:
Post by: Wacenturion on December 18, 2010, 04:08:57 PM
Today's management schemes are just that...schemes. No science to it. :twocents:
I agree with that statement. There is no management whatsoever as far as regulating the number of hunters in each GMU. It's totally random and seems like the WDFW just sets the seasons and hopes for the best.People only have so much time off and they can only kill one deer or elk for crying out loud. Go back to simpler regulations, simpler seasons and more opportunity for everyone.
I hear this a lot and it's just a silly argument. Think about it. Each person is allowed only one but how many actually are harvested per person? Probably somewhere around 1 deer per 3 to 4 people, and 1 elk for every 10 hunters.
Let everyone hunt ALL the seasons and watch the success rates go up. What if they gave us so much time (opportunity) to hunt, that EVERY hunter actually DID kill an elk and a deer each year? There wouldn't be anything left after a couple of years!
Not a silly argument at all, as it was the way it was before "Resource Allocation". There are records to show what happened. More opportunity, more seasons, regulated harvest levels that were adjusted. Not every hunter killed a deer and an elk each year, nor will they ever...just won't happen. With all due respect, that statement is ridiculous.
Post by: Gutpile on December 18, 2010, 04:10:07 PM
And if you are drawn, and don't buy the permit, then you can no longer apply... :stup:
Ouch!!! I got drawn for the MS Deer Tag this year and didn't buy it. I wish I would have now but I didn't. Do you mind if I apply again this year? Please. :dunno:
I know harsh. I did the same thing, but i filled my general tag. kinda glad i save $180 on my deer. :chuckle:
I drew a B tag so I did get a deer I just didn't get a Buck. While coyote hunting I saw some absolute pigs during the rut. :bash:
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2010, 04:14:48 PM
Not a silly argument at all, as it was the way it was before "Resource Allocation". There are records to show what happened. More opportunity, more seasons, regulated harvest levels that were adjusted. Not every hunter killed a deer and an elk each year, nor will they ever...just won't happen. With all due respect, that statement is ridiculous.
You know, back then we also did not have the extensive archery and muzzleloader seasons like we have now. There was not a whole lot of deer and elk hunting happening in September and December.
So you're saying we should go back to the '73 regulations and do away with archery and muzzleloader seasons? OK :rolleyes: (with all due respect) :chuckle:
Post by: Wacenturion on December 18, 2010, 04:21:25 PM
Ever hear of "The Law of Diminishing Returns"? It states...........
The law of diminishing returns is a classic economic concept that states that as more investment in an area is made, overall return on that investment increases at a declining rate, assuming that all variables remain fixed. To continue to make an investment after a certain point (which varies from context to context) is to receive a decreasing return on that input.
Applied to hunting it simply means.......the harder it is to harvest game the less time someone will actually spend trying. Classic example is a pheasant. Pretty well documented that half of the harvest-able roosters are taken in the first two weeks of the season, with the lions share on opening weekend. As the season progresses and birds run and are harder to kill or even find, then add in the weather....like in snow, ice and damn cold, only the dyed in the wool bird dog owners are still engaged in pheasant hunting, with the exception of some road hunters....fact.
Same principal applies to all hunters irregardless of species. I remember it being called the "Law of the Fagged Out Hunter" by an old professor of mine. Of course fagged out meant something completely different way back then. :chuckle:
Post by: Gutpile on December 18, 2010, 04:24:15 PM
"Law of the Fagged Out Hunter"
Homophobe!!!!!
Post by: jbeaumont21 on December 18, 2010, 04:31:13 PM
But remember If you draw the Multi tags it gives you the ability to put in for any special permit any weapon any side of the mountains..
Sorry if this is a stupid questions... so if the multi tag gives you the ability to put in for a special permit on either side does that mean you find out the results and if you were selected for the multi tag before purchasing and committing to a hunt during the regular season elk tag on either east or west side?? Hopefully my questions wasn't too confusing and made sense. It's my understanding that you have to choose what type of hunt that you want (archery, modern, ml) and purchase the licence before you are able to put in for the special permit hunts. So in that case you must be able to know if you were selected for the multi season tag before hand correct?
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2010, 04:37:12 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on December 18, 2010, 04:37:42 PM
Not a silly argument at all, as it was the way it was before "Resource Allocation". There are records to show what happened. More opportunity, more seasons, regulated harvest levels that were adjusted. Not every hunter killed a deer and an elk each year, nor will they ever...just won't happen. With all due respect, that statement is ridiculous.
You know, back then we also did not have the extensive archery and muzzleloader seasons like we have now. There was not a whole lot of deer and elk hunting happening in September and December.
So you're saying we should go back to the '73 regulations and do away with archery and muzzleloader seasons? OK :rolleyes: (with all due respect) :chuckle:
No I'm not saying do away with archery an muzzleloading seasons....they existed back then (although different), and if you bought the archery/muzzle-loader stamp, you too could participate. Again I'll say a person only has so much vacation time, and weekend time and it's generally spread amongst both big game, waterfowl and upland bird seasons. Your argument keeps assuming people are all of a sudden going to be in the field 7 days a week all season long. Yeah there would obviously be some tweaking, but I think most would opt for more opportunity, but hey...maybe I'm wrong.
Did you hunt that 73' season? I did and several before that. I also lived in the basin then and hunted areas in all directions. I remember what it was like back then, and I can tell you with all certainty it was a hell of a lot better than today.
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2010, 04:42:29 PM
Another thing to consider... you say people will be limited by their lack of time except for those who are retired, right? Well- wouldn't you say there are a whole lot more retired people who are still physically capable of hunting than there was back in 1973? Hasn't the life expectancy greatly increased since then and hasn't the age of retirement gone down?
And not only that, but nowadays we have ATV's, 4 wheel drive vehicles, GPS, rangefinders, great optics, AND the internet.
Post by: Wacenturion on December 18, 2010, 04:55:08 PM
No I didn't hunt in '73. I was only five years old!
Another thing to consider... you say people will be limited by their lack of time except for those who are retired, right? Well- wouldn't you say there are a whole lot more retired people who are still physically capable of hunting than there was back in 1973? Hasn't the life expectancy greatly increased since then and hasn't the age of retirement gone down?
And not only that, but nowadays we have ATV's, 4 wheel drive vehicles, GPS, rangefinders, great optics, AND the internet.
That's true, but if you think someone 65 is as capable as he was at say 27 to chase animals in the field....then I have a sweet deal on some ocean front property in Nebraska for you. :chuckle:
Also your values change as you get older. It not so much about harvest as it is about the experience and time spent with lifelong friends. Also you're much wiser. Boat trips across the Potholes Reservoir early in the dark with snow hitting you in the face just to get your spot and shoot ducks doesn't carry that youthful rush it once did. Warmth is good....sleeping in is your friend.
Post by: Gutpile on December 18, 2010, 04:57:07 PM
No I didn't hunt in '73. I was only five years old!
Another thing to consider... you say people will be limited by their lack of time except for those who are retired, right? Well- wouldn't you say there are a whole lot more retired people who are still physically capable of hunting than there was back in 1973? Hasn't the life expectancy greatly increased since then and hasn't the age of retirement gone down?
And not only that, but nowadays we have ATV's, 4 wheel drive vehicles, GPS, rangefinders, great optics, AND the internet.
That's true, but if you think someone 65 is as capable as he was at say 27 to chase animals in the field....then I have a sweet deal on some ocean front property in Nebraska for you. :chuckle:
Also your values change as you get older. It not so much about harvest as it is about the experience and time spent with lifelong friends. Also you're much wiser. Boat trips across the Potholes Reservoir early in the dark with snow hitting you in the face just to get your spot and shoot ducks doesn't carry that youthful rush it once did. Warmth is good....sleeping in is your friend.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: BlackRidge on December 18, 2010, 05:16:20 PM
It's amazing how many people were drawn for it and didn't collect on it, 180 doesn't seem like that much.. especially if you put in for the tag knowing it costs what it does. Why put in for it if you don't think there's a chance of being drawn?
Post by: chester on December 18, 2010, 07:05:49 PM
thats my story anyway.
Post by: jbeaumont21 on December 18, 2010, 11:08:58 PM
Why put in for it if you don't think there's a chance of being drawn?
Well the way I understand it is that if I am on the west side and get drawn for a multi season tag then I can put in in for one of the east side special permits for elk. However if I am not successful in drawing an east side tag then there is no reason for me to purchase the multi season tag since I would rather hunt the west side general season. Does that sound right? I don't know ... I am just trying to make sense of the confusing regs here in WA.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on December 18, 2010, 11:17:42 PM
You got it wrong, you have to buy the multi tag first. Before you get to put in for the special permits. You can't put in for the east and west side tags without buying the tag.
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2010, 11:18:38 PM
Post by: jbeaumont21 on December 18, 2010, 11:31:48 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 18, 2010, 11:36:24 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 19, 2010, 12:25:28 AM
Elk, on the other hand is a worthwhile investment. Without a multi-season permit you can only hunt half the state and apply for permits in the same half, the seasons are shorter, and overall success is much lower. Paying $180 to help get an elk makes sense to me, but not for deer.
Post by: Alan K on December 20, 2010, 10:42:19 AM
I just don't see the justification for spending $180 for a multi-season deer permit.
Getting a deer period isn't difficult, but getting a trophy is. The extra couple months to hunt gives a guy a lot of extra time to pass on smaller bucks waiting for the big guy. You've also got the opportunity to take a doe for meat if necessary out until December 31st, which wouldn't take more than a day or two.
I plan to put in for both deer and elk from now on since I'll be graduating in the spring, and hope to draw both!
Post by: MichaelD on December 20, 2010, 04:15:59 PM
I really like the late muzzy season, but I like the fact I can take a nice buck in the early season while elk hunting if I come across one, or during early muzzy season if a toad steps out, or while hunting with my dad during modern season, or late bow/muzzy season. Not that I usually have a problem getting a deer, I just like the ability to draw out a season a little, hunt with family during the modern, and hunt muzzy/bow by myself if I have still not tagged out.
I know the amount of $$ I will have to pony up if drawn and I put a little away every month so its not such a hit when I get drawn.
I wish they would make us pay up front so if we are drawn we have tags in hand......no waiting to see who "wants" to buy the tag they were drawn for, or getting into a race to buy an elk tag if drawn because of an overdraw and you might miss out. IT would weed out the people who flake out an end up not buying the tag. I have been notified of a second/third draw in the past that was well into bow season for tags that were still unfilled. I ended up buying the tags in late Sept but missed out on a couple of weeks of hunting in the woods.
My $.02
Michael
Post by: Bob33 on December 20, 2010, 04:20:45 PM
Fair point. Good luck to you in drawing.I just don't see the justification for spending $180 for a multi-season deer permit.
Getting a deer period isn't difficult, but getting a trophy is. The extra couple months to hunt gives a guy a lot of extra time to pass on smaller bucks waiting for the big guy. You've also got the opportunity to take a doe for meat if necessary out until December 31st, which wouldn't take more than a day or two.
I plan to put in for both deer and elk from now on since I'll be graduating in the spring, and hope to draw both!
Post by: Buckrub on December 21, 2010, 08:31:25 AM
Frickin greeners in wdfw are idiots.
Post by: bobcat on December 21, 2010, 08:49:57 AM
If that was allowed, then you also ought to be able to use a muzzleloader during archery season. :twocents:
Post by: BlackRidge on December 21, 2010, 09:17:48 AM
I won't even apply as long as I can't use my bow during muzzleloader season... :bash:
Frickin greeners in wdfw are idiots.
...Theres so much wrong with this post :chuckle:
If I cant use my rifle during archery season, I'm out too :rolleyes:
Post by: Buckrub on December 21, 2010, 10:27:45 AM
But a bow is not a lesser weapon during muzzle loader season?
What? muzzle loaders think I can shoot further with my bow?
Post by: chester on December 21, 2010, 05:25:31 PM
So... One can use a bow or muzzle loader during rifle season based on a lesser weapon rule?
But a bow is not a lesser weapon during muzzle loader season?
What? muzzle loaders think I can shoot further with my bow?
Are you shooting traditional or compound?
Post by: Bob33 on December 23, 2010, 08:37:43 PM
So... One can use a bow or muzzle loader during rifle season based on a lesser weapon rule?During muzzleloader seasons, hunters must use muzzleloader equipment only; archery equipment is not allowed. I can't tell you why, but it's been talked about for quite some time.
But a bow is not a lesser weapon during muzzle loader season?
What? muzzle loaders think I can shoot further with my bow?
Post by: MAVsled on December 23, 2010, 10:53:23 PM
and what a great year it's been for hunting-persuing TROPHY deer; east & west WA.
Passed on legal muleys during the rifle season as no big buck spotted and hoping for searching out a big fella in late archery. Had opportunity in late archery but stalks didn't work in my favor, but the challenge was satisfying. Alas, finally settled for a big two point blacktail in unit 460 just 2 weeks ago.
I spent the money to extend my deer season, opportunity and time for pursuit. It was worth every penny of that $180 plus the deer tag cost in searching for a big buck with no special buck tag being drawn this year.
if the WDFW stayed with multi-season draw, then 60 days to purchase and after 60 days option to a first come-first served basis open market. If not drawn, I'd buy one every year...same for elk too. heck raise the price to $200 for after the draw, I'd still purchase both.
its the extended opportunity & time-seasons, because the time is available for me.
Post by: huntnnw on December 24, 2010, 05:38:37 AM
Post by: Bob33 on December 24, 2010, 07:20:41 AM
Several states sell surplus tags exactly this way.
Post by: Gutpile on December 24, 2010, 07:24:33 AM
Simple. Online sale only. First come, first served. Limited number. When they're gone they're gone. State gets its money and deal is done, probably in one morning.
Several states sell surplus tags exactly this way.
I 'd like that but can you imagine the ammount of griping from the folks who don't think of things until the last minute? That would be fun to watch.
Post by: Bob33 on December 24, 2010, 07:33:40 AM
Post by: funkster on December 24, 2010, 12:50:25 PM