Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: kerrdog on December 24, 2010, 11:43:07 PM

Title: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: kerrdog on December 24, 2010, 11:43:07 PM: You get just one shot. You're cold, or worse. Your rifle is cold. Which ammo fires best for ONE SHOT ONLY! I've got a friend with a T/C Hawkin. I'm not sure the twist rate. Neither is he. But he shoots powerbelts with deadly accuracy. My T/C NW Explorer is supposed to shoot conicals well with it's 1/48 twist. Even though it's not supposed to shoot sabots well, I nailed a 100 yard bulls-eye, first shot, with a T/C XTP bullet with sabot. Then I couldn't hit it again!
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: Blsum on December 25, 2010, 11:34:20 PM: From what I understand the 1:48" doesn't give a sabot enough spin to stabilize the bullet. Yes your bullet is going down range but who knows where it is really going. If your gun doesn't hit damn near the same spot every time you shoot then something is wrong. If I where you I would stick with the conical s. I'm sure T/C did a bunch of testing. Let them figure out where to start from and listen to them. If they say the gun doesn't shoot sabot's very well then don't shoot sabot's. :twocents:
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: dawhunt on December 26, 2010, 06:26:14 AM: Quote from: Blsum on December 25, 2010, 11:34:20 PM
From what I understand the 1:48" doesn't give a sabot enough spin to stabilize the bullet. Yes your bullet is going down range but who knows where it is really going. If your gun doesn't hit damn near the same spot every time you shoot then something is wrong. If I where you I would stick with the conical s. I'm sure T/C did a bunch of testing. Let them figure out where to start from and listen to them. If they say the gun doesn't shoot sabot's very well then don't shoot sabot's. :twocents:

Right on, good advice !!!
Bob
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: Bigshooter on December 26, 2010, 08:06:34 AM: I don't know how twist and sabots are linked. As far as I know there should not be any link between them. With that slow of a twist if you are shooting heavy bullets they won't stabilize. What you most likely need to do is shoot a lighter bullet. Like 300grs or less. But I'm not even sure if they make sabots's that weigh much more than that. So if your shooting 300gr sabot's or less already. You have something else that is wrong. I would check all your screws first and make sure everything is tight, then I would take a look at the barrel and make sure that it looks good. If all of that checks out ok. Then it might be as easy as your gun doesn't shoot sabots well and you need to change to something else.
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: Whitelightning on December 26, 2010, 08:45:31 AM: Quote from: Bigshooter on December 26, 2010, 08:06:34 AM
I don't know how twist and sabots are linked. As far as I know there should not be any link between them. With that slow of a twist if you are shooting heavy bullets they won't stabilize. What you most likely need to do is shoot a lighter bullet. Like 300grs or less. But I'm not even sure if they make sabots's that weigh much more than that. So if your shooting 300gr sabot's or less already. You have something else that is wrong. I would check all your screws first and make sure everything is tight, then I would take a look at the barrel and make sure that it looks good. If all of that checks out ok. Then it might be as easy as your gun doesn't shoot sabots well and you need to change to something else.

:yeah:
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: bobcat on December 26, 2010, 09:09:31 AM: I shoot 330 grain bullets in sabots out of my 1 in 48 twist Lyman, and they do just fine. I agree with Bigshooter- with the slower twist you need to use shorter bullets, which of course corresponds to a lighter bullet. The Harvester hard cast bullets I'm shooting are also available in a 400 grain version, and I figured it would be way too long for the 1 in 48 twist to stabilize it. But I did have Mid South Shooters Supply mistakenly send me a box of the 400 grainers when I had ordered the others. So when I get a chance I will try them and see how they shoot.
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: ML_Hunter on December 27, 2010, 09:54:53 PM: I agree with Blsum! The hawkens SHOULD have a 1:48" barrel unless its been changed out. I recommend the T/C Maxi-Ball bullet and have been shooting there 348 grain bullet. Does very well on both deer and elk with excellent expansion!
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: KLRKeith on December 28, 2010, 01:06:37 PM: I've gotten two shots on animals before. Once was a Mule Deer during very windy coditions at 60 yards away he stayed when I shot over his back. I reloaded and the next shot was dead on. I also had two shots on coyotes. First was a miss; second he stoped when I yelped at him and he actually came back in.
With that said I always shoot two shots to check out what my gun does cold and clean then the second without wiping or cleaning to replicate a follow up shot.

TC Hawkins are 1-48 unless stamped on the barrel otherwise. All the 1-66" barrel's I've seen where marked bodly on the barrel.
Have a good week..

Quote from: kerrdog on December 24, 2010, 11:43:07 PM
You get just one shot. You're cold, or worse. Your rifle is cold. Which ammo fires best for ONE SHOT ONLY! I've got a friend with a T/C Hawkin. I'm not sure the twist rate. Neither is he. But he shoots powerbelts with deadly accuracy. My T/C NW Explorer is supposed to shoot conicals well with it's 1/48 twist. Even though it's not supposed to shoot sabots well, I nailed a 100 yard bulls-eye, first shot, with a T/C XTP bullet with sabot. Then I couldn't hit it again!
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: Skillet on December 28, 2010, 01:18:26 PM: After I neglected my 1:48 .50 cal Hawken barrel, I put on a Green Mountain Long Range Hunter barrel with a 1:28 twist. That is a conical and sabot shooting tube for certain. The heavier/longer the bullet, the more it seems to like them. Recoil can get a little rugged when stuffing cast boolits in the 450 grain range ahead of a full 120 grain charge, though.
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: Whitelightning on December 28, 2010, 05:41:35 PM: Quote from: Skillet on December 28, 2010, 01:18:26 PM
After I neglected my 1:48 .50 cal Hawken barrel, I put on a Green Mountain Long Range Hunter barrel with a 1:28 twist. That is a conical and sabot shooting tube for certain. The heavier/longer the bullet, the more it seems to like them. Recoil can get a little rugged when stuffing cast boolits in the 450 grain range ahead of a full 120 grain charge, though.

I agree the 1:28 will stabilize a longer heavy conical exceptionaly well. My White 50's are all 1:28 and they all like 460-600gr lead conicals with amazing accuracy. Lead expands every time!!
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: colockumelk on January 01, 2011, 07:34:54 AM: My T/C Blackdiamond shoots much different clean vs. dirty. At 100yds there is a 4-6" difference. So what I do is before I go up for the season, I will shoot once to make sure the barrell is slightly dirty before hunting. (And no I don't do it where I plan on hunting, I do it at the range) Otherwise if I wanted a "clean" group I'd have to shoot it once. Go home clean it, come back shoot it again, go home and clean it come back shoot it again, and then check my three shot group and make an adjustment.

So its not so much a difference between a cold vs hot gun its a dirty vs clean gun thing.
Title: Re: Groups? Muzzleloaders don't shoot groups!
Post by: Whitelightning on January 01, 2011, 03:46:19 PM: Quote from: colockumelk on January 01, 2011, 07:34:54 AM
My T/C Blackdiamond shoots much different clean vs. dirty. At 100yds there is a 4-6" difference. So what I do is before I go up for the season, I will shoot once to make sure the barrell is slightly dirty before hunting. (And no I don't do it where I plan on hunting, I do it at the range) Otherwise if I wanted a "clean" group I'd have to shoot it once. Go home clean it, come back shoot it again, go home and clean it come back shoot it again, and then check my three shot group and make an adjustment.

So its not so much a difference between a cold vs hot gun its a dirty vs clean gun thing.

I agree. The only time you will have a hot versus cold issue is if you can jamb round after round down the muzzle,( this can be done with a white) I also fire a Squib load to foul the barrel before I hunt and also at the range. POI can differ on a clean versus dirty barrel.