Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: fair-chase on January 11, 2011, 05:36:19 PM

Title: Another Bullet Question
Post by: fair-chase on January 11, 2011, 05:36:19 PM: So it seems that non toxic bullets are the wave of the future. Good or bad, they seem to be what the ammo manufacturers are pushing these days. I was curious as to why there is not a replacement for the standard round ball for a those of us who still have muzzle loaders with slower twist rates. Why is there not a solid copper or tungsten round ball to patch for my more traditional rifles? Would it not work or is is that the market for us traditionalists is just too small?
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: hoyt2002 on January 11, 2011, 05:47:07 PM: not a muzzy guy here but isn't there a chance that could mess up your gun?? :dunno: ligit question not trying to start nothing.
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: whacker1 on January 11, 2011, 05:49:27 PM: Interesting Question. I don't know the answer. But all of the Muzzleloader non-toxic's are copper in sabot. It may provide too much resistance to get it down the barrel? I don't know the answer, but very interesting question.
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: fair-chase on January 11, 2011, 05:51:28 PM: Quote from: hoyt2002 on January 11, 2011, 05:47:07 PM
not a muzzy guy here but isn't there a chance that cound mess up your gun?? :dunno: ligit question not trying to start nothing.

That's what I am curious about as well. I just don't know why.
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: rock on January 11, 2011, 05:52:16 PM: The roundballs and any conical are made of lead becaue since its a softer metal it mold to the barrels rifling campared to a copper sabotted bullet and sabot. Its just a matter of how much pressure there is to create a maximum velocity. :twocents:
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: fair-chase on January 11, 2011, 05:57:11 PM: Quote from: rock on January 11, 2011, 05:52:16 PM
The roundballs and any conical are made of lead becaue since its a softer metal it mold to the barrels rifling campared to a copper sabotted bullet and sabot. Its just a matter of how much pressure there is to create a maximum velocity. :twocents:

Yes, but the bullet does not actually touch the rifling, only the patch does. So I don't understand how pressure could increase unless the lead bullet is actually deforming enough to allow gasses to pass by. Not to argue with you, just trying to get a better understanding of this. You are probrably right.
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: ML_Hunter on January 11, 2011, 07:48:06 PM: It may be because a solid copper or tungsten round ball will not expand on its target and will be the same effect as if the animal was hit with a full metal jacket round. The copper bullets work for they are hollow points to force them to expand and have expansion cuts in them, which is also how Barns "controls" the way they expand. Tungsten is a softer metal...but still does not "mushroom" like lead does. :dunno:
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: dawhunt on January 12, 2011, 07:52:13 AM: I don't think it would mushroom either it might just pass on thru ??
Bob
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: bobcat on January 12, 2011, 08:38:37 AM: I don't know the answer to this but I don't think lead round balls expand.

I would suspect the main reason they wouldn't make round balls out of materials other than lead is the cost. Nobody's going to want to pay a lot more money just to shoot a copper round ball instead of a lead round ball. Also copper is lighter and being a round ball, you can't make up for that by making it longer, like they do with bullets. So being lighter, a copper round ball would be a very poor projectile for hunting.
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: fair-chase on January 12, 2011, 09:29:47 AM: That's a good theory bobcat. That got me thinking about comparable weights between different materials.

Tungsten = 1201 lbs. per cubic foot

Lead = 708 lbs. per cubic foot or 59% of tungsten

Copper = 542 lbs. per cubic foot or 45% of tungsten and 76% of lead

Obviously tungsten is way up there on density. But if we were to compare a lead round ball to a copper one based on the densities above it would look something like this.

.50 cal lead round ball 180 gr. would equal a .50 cal copper round ball at 137 gr.

I think I will try to look into this some more. There should be both pros and cons of using copper over lead. Obviously sectional density is coppers downfall. Like bobcat said, you cannot make up for the weight on a round ball because you cannot lengthen a round ball. I think however that copper would be less likely to deform on small objects like sticks or blades of grass. If I can scar a lead ball with minimal pressure from my fingernail, I always wonder how many nicks I put in it by pressing it down the barrel with a ramrod. I may need to get some copper casting tools and ballistic jelly to get to the bottom of this. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: bobcat on January 12, 2011, 09:36:39 AM: Well, I'm sure the main reason has to do with cost. Not only that, but there is simply no market for non-lead round balls. I'm sure they could make them out of some of the same materials they're using for bird shot in shotgun shells. But why? Who would spend more money for a non-lead round ball? Lead round balls work and they have for centuries. The only reason they would have to ever come up with an alternative would be if laws were passed that banned all lead bullets.
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: fair-chase on January 12, 2011, 09:40:10 AM: Your probrably right bobcat. As for the laws banning lead round balls, there coming it's just a matter of time.
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: rock on January 12, 2011, 12:50:18 PM: Quote from: fair-chase on January 11, 2011, 05:57:11 PM
Quote from: rock on January 11, 2011, 05:52:16 PM
The roundballs and any conical are made of lead becaue since its a softer metal it mold to the barrels rifling campared to a copper sabotted bullet and sabot. Its just a matter of how much pressure there is to create a maximum velocity. :twocents:

Yes, but the bullet does not actually touch the rifling, only the patch does. So I don't understand how pressure could increase unless the lead bullet is actually deforming enough to allow gasses to pass by. Not to argue with you, just trying to get a better understanding of this. You are probrably right.
From my understanding, (Based on cabelas online muzzeloader info on different types of bullets) the patch does not fill in the rifling in completly but the lead ball helps with pressure. and if you used a copper ball and a patch from my understanding that it would tear up the rifling being a stronger metal.
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: bobcat on January 12, 2011, 12:55:33 PM: Copper is "stronger" than steel? :dunno:
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: rock on January 12, 2011, 12:58:25 PM: No? Its stronger than lead though...
Title: Re: Another Bullet Question
Post by: kerrdog on January 15, 2011, 08:38:46 AM: I've seen photos of proper loading of lead ball, although I don't use them. In fact, the lead ball did slight have lines imprinted in it, through the patch, from the rifling. Upon ignition, the lead ball expands slightly, giving it even more grab on the rifling. The patch just keeps it from smearing lead into the rifling. A harder material would not form to the rifling when loading and shooting, and would not be as accurate. Of course a harder material would not expand well on impact either. Yes, it would be more expensive, I guess.

As far as the attitude that non-toxic rounds are not necessary, I've seen youtube videos, and read articles that demonstrate lead projectiles, both modern and black-powder, fragment and splatter lead into a carcass, far from the wound channel. In fact, samples of ground game meat tested positive for lead contamination about half the time (that's not a scientific reference; just something I read). Lead is bad for kids, they say, and some probably sensative adults also.

I also have a rifle with a slower twist rate that designed to shoot lead conicals. While I'm not gonna run out and sell it, my next rifle purchase will have a fast twist so I can shoot Barnes XTPs. I tried them in my rifle, and they tumble badly. Check it out!

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi201.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa192%2Fkerrwindows%2FOutdoors%2FIMAG0494.jpg&hash=92805e8df5ccf48849eb578a66e12d0b6e520575)