Post by: Dirty Mike on January 20, 2011, 06:17:23 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 20, 2011, 06:27:18 PM
Post by: Dan-o on January 20, 2011, 06:38:06 PM
I grew up hunting deer with round ball and the results were less than spectacular.
Are you familiar with how much more energy you can deliver to the target by shooting a conical bullet instead? Do a quick internet search and look at the energy. Be sure to look at down range energy, like even 50 and 100 yards down range, because round balls are waaaaaaaaay inefficient (horrible ballistic coefficient).
My experience with deer, and seeing how little energy they pack compared to conicals has kept me from ever wanting to hunt elk with them.
That said, I don't disagree with the first reply. I'm sure many elk have been killed by them over the years. But I wouldn't feel comfortable hunting elk with a really small/light modern rifle cartridge either. I just think they can be one tough critter.
2 cents,
Dan
Post by: colockumelk on January 20, 2011, 07:55:45 PM
Anything less than the combo I described above can't kill an elk. Nope impossible.
On a serious note we owe it to the animals we hunt to put them down quick and hard. Co ovals do this far better than a round ball. But if you want to use a round ball go for it. Just be reasonable and shorten your Max range.
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2011, 08:13:15 PM
Post by: Hangfire on January 20, 2011, 09:06:57 PM
I switched from my .50 Green River Leman rifle (36 in by 1 inch across flats barrel, very heavy but very accurate. I went to the New Englander because much lighter hunting rifle. We were going in 7-10 miles in a road closure unit and weight important. I didn't switch to improve performance although I think the .54 gives better penetration. If I was to be doing it again I would build a .58 or .62 roundball gun.
Post by: O_mykiss on January 20, 2011, 09:54:40 PM
If it were me, I would be using a heavy lead conical, but your mileage may vary.
Post by: lonedave on January 20, 2011, 10:07:32 PM
[img(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw107%2Flonedave%2FDSCN0444-r25.jpg&hash=2e6d294272085c74059be47ebbfb20475abbf51b)][/img]
Post by: carpsniperg2 on January 20, 2011, 10:10:58 PM
Post by: O_mykiss on January 20, 2011, 10:17:57 PM
lonedave has a good point, gotta be close anyway, so there is probably not much of a gap between the edge of roundball range (75 yards or so?) and the maximum muzzloader range (125 for me).
Post by: C-Money on January 24, 2011, 04:26:00 PM
Post by: lokidog on January 24, 2011, 05:15:21 PM
Post by: undertoad on January 25, 2011, 06:34:29 AM
That said, they work best if your gun was designed for them. That means slow-twist rifling. The typical twist rate for ball guns is 1 in 66-72 inches. Bullet guns're typical 1 in 20-48 inches.
On slow-twist guns, you can use big powder charges and still keep accuracy. For hunting in my .54, I use 120 grains of 2f black powder. It shoots great and bowls 'em over.
I chose muzzle-loading for the history aspect, and because I like to keep things simple. I use patched balls, natural lubes, black powder, traditional guns, and clean up with plain room-temp water. Life is so easy, and I do not feel any handicap compared to bullet muzzle-loaders, given iron sights for both.
Post by: colockumelk on January 28, 2011, 08:45:04 PM
Elk can't be killed with round balls. The only way you can kill an elk with a muzzle loader is if you are using a T/C Encore with a 209 primer, 150 grains of pyrodex pellets, and a 300 grain T/C Shockwave jacketed bullet. Oh and its impossible to hit an elk unless you have a Nikon BDC 3x9 Muzzy scope on top and only after you ranged him.
Anything less than the combo I described above can't kill an elk. Nope impossible.
On a serious note we owe it to the animals we hunt to put them down quick and hard. Co ovals do this far better than a round ball. But if you want to use a round ball go for it. Just be reasonable and shorten your Max range.
I hope people realized that this whole post of mine was 100% sarcasm.
Post by: SkookumHntr on January 28, 2011, 08:59:48 PM
Post by: wadu1 on January 28, 2011, 09:12:11 PM
Post by: bearpaw on February 02, 2011, 04:32:32 PM
I have seen multiple animals wounded by roundballs. Here's a prime example of why the pioneers started using elongated projectiles.
When we could still run hounds in WA I had a bear hunter using round balls. My dogs bayed up about a 350 pound bear, we slipped in within 20 yards in heavy cover, dogs are running all around us, bear is putting charges on the dogs trying to grab them, he was too big and slow to get them, finally we had a clear shot at 20ish yards, boooooommmm, smoke clears bear is loooking at us seemingly unharmed, quick reload, pretty quick bbboooommmmm again, bear takes off running and goes a half mile or so, we catch up and slip in close again, bbooommmm smoke clears and bear is still unharmed, this crap goes on for about 6 or 8 shots until hunter is out of ammo. The bear was wounded pretty good by now but by no means dead, we had to wait for quite some time, finally I was able to slip in behind the bear, I made a quick slash with my knife at his throat and got out of the way. Finally after about another 30 minutes he bled to death.
Upon dressing and skinning the bear we found that the roundies would hit, flatten out some on impact, and not get enough penetration to kill a big animal like that.
One year we were restricted to round balls during a muzzleloader mule deer season in Idaho. We had killed lots of bucks with MZ bullets and now all we could use were round balls. The balls never killed a single deer, we lost 7 bucks, we did get 1 buck but we had to run up and hold it down while we cut its throat. One hunter quit hunting after 4 wounded bucks, it was the most disgusting mess I ever saw.
RB's should be illegal for big game due to lack of effectiveness. Just my opinion.... :twocents:
Post by: HEADSHOT on February 02, 2011, 04:53:58 PM
I haven't used a .54 ball for elk, but last year I took this bull with my .62 T/C Hawken and a single patched round ball. One shot from less than 50 yards and he was down in 14 long steps. The numbers game would say round balls are terrible for game, but results like this and Hangfire's above would say otherwise. As to the need to keep shots close, I'd say yes for any muzzleloader as that's kind of the name of the game, right.
[img(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi174.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw107%2Flonedave%2FDSCN0444-r25.jpg&hash=2e6d294272085c74059be47ebbfb20475abbf51b)][/img]
I second this! I know were you shot that critter! it was out by djkasldfbeeqlrfuqerl house! I knew it! And you did it with round ball? How many mules have you killed on the beast side of the state?
Post by: MagKarl on February 02, 2011, 05:56:48 PM
Post by: Hangfire on February 02, 2011, 07:39:54 PM
It is more, know where to shoot a animal, how to hit that spot, and know your range. It is like all guns and archery, to many people push there weapons to where thy are no longer effective, be it archery, muzzle loader or 300 magnum.
Why use roundballs, plan and simple accuracy. You can't put them down if you can't hit them correctly. Round ball guns normally are very accurate. A number of years ago a fellow I believe named Bill Faulk, won the hunting rifle match at the Spokane gun club. He was shooting a half stock 45 cal muzzle loader he had built, with round balls. The rules were, off hand, any rifle leagal for deer, any sights. His iron sighted muzzle loader won. When I was target shooting you better be able to shoot 2 inch or smaller groups at 100 yards if you wanted to place. That was off cross sticks and iron sights.
Post by: KLRKeith on February 02, 2011, 08:11:59 PM
Post by: bearpaw on February 03, 2011, 01:38:01 PM
A bayed up bear is hairy with any weapon, but that situation was not good, unfortunately I had forgotten my pistol in my truck or I would have handed it to the guy to put the bear out of it's misery. I have a great respect for the animals I hunt and just hate to see unnecessary suffering. I felt really bad for the bear waiting for it to slowly die after I had to cut it's throat.
I am a firm believer in hunting with all weapons types, but I feel we owe it to the wildife we kill, to kill them as quickly as possible and to use as effective equipment as possible whether it be bow, pistol, rifle, or muzzy. :twocents:
Post by: h20hunter on February 03, 2011, 02:10:26 PM
Post by: bobcat on February 03, 2011, 02:37:48 PM
Post by: Dan-o on February 03, 2011, 02:46:58 PM
Post by: KLRKeith on February 03, 2011, 07:04:32 PM
54 cal, 1,600fps--passed thru shoulder of mule deer exited and recovered in hair on exit side. 60 yards
.45cal fmj, 900 fps --point blank range--pancaked on skull of grizzly bear; cracked skull but no penetration.
.30 cal Nosler partition 180grains--2,400fps----120 yards--Grizzly bear behind front shoulder; stuck on off side hide
.30 Cal nosler partition 170 grain--1,900 fps 130 yards --Caribou double lung but no bone hit. Found against skin exit side, no exit
.30 cal Nosler partition 170 grains, 1,900 fps-80 yards--Moose rib shot then stopped on spine
Post by: MagKarl on February 03, 2011, 07:29:29 PM
I'll admit I've only shot a couple deer with round balls, but the 3 shots I've taken were all pass thoughs and quick kills. No lost animals, no balls recovered. 54 cal, between ~30 and 70 yards.
To say they are non-lethal or imply their use is unethical or unsportsmanlike is ignorant.
Post by: DeerThug on February 03, 2011, 07:48:26 PM
Unless you are 100% traditional - stick with good heavy lead. You only get one shot at a time, why go small when bigger is better.
No on likes a crash when it comes to muzzle elk...
Post by: Skillet on February 10, 2011, 08:03:07 AM
My personal rules of the road for round balls, in no particular order -
#1 - .54 is my minimum round ball gun for elk. Projectile weight is important on these animals to ensure penetration.
#2 - I basically hunt like I have a bow. 60 yards maximum, double lung is the rule. No frontal shots, no shoulders. Quarting away is ideal. If I don't get the shot, I don't force it. If tagging an elk was the only goal, I'd be carrying my .50 cal slinging heavy boolits out to 100 yards.
#3 - Burn a lot of powder this summer. Practice, practice, practice.
#4 - Plan on blood trailing as per bowhunting. Even with the RB pancaking, you're not putting the punch on them that 400 grains of lead conical can.
If you do your job by practicing often, exercising self restraint as far as range and shot placement, then the round ball will do its job. But if you expect a round ball to do a sabot's or a heavy conical's job, you will be disappointed and probably have wasted an elk, to boot.
Post by: bobcat on February 10, 2011, 08:09:00 AM
Post by: Skillet on February 10, 2011, 08:34:45 AM
I know what you mean. I've watched a number of those shows on ML hunting and the glory is all in the ultra-long shot. I'm pretty sure it's because they have sponsors, and they need to sell whatever it is they're using to pay for the show. Hard to sell a new super-duper-deluxe whatchamacallit by saying "now, even if you're gonna use this, you still gotta get close enough to hear him breathing". And there is nowhere near enough money spent on new gadgets by the guys shooting PRBs from old Hawkens to get a show made that will tell it like it is. To the best of my knowledge, anyway.
Post by: Dirty Mike on February 10, 2011, 09:30:10 AM
Post by: Skillet on February 10, 2011, 09:37:13 AM
If you do, I'd be really curious to compare notes iwth you. I've done a little looking into the .54's out there, and would be curious to see what you come up with. PM me if you get that far down the road with the PRB shooter.
Post by: Hangfire on February 10, 2011, 06:56:22 PM
Post by: busterbrown on June 22, 2011, 08:57:09 PM
Keep shots on elk under 50 yards, deer 100 yards.
In the old days, mountainmen killed everything from rabbits to buffalo with this load.
Know the limits of the gun and load, practice shooting your gun, know the trajectory, where to shoot the critter and sight the guns to be shot in the 50-100 yard hunting ranges.
Read Sam Fadela and Tobey Bridges books and articles.
Post by: Selkirk on June 22, 2011, 10:10:02 PM
Post by: busterbrown on June 30, 2011, 10:26:17 PM
As stated, get close and make a good shot. Muzzleloading is not about shooting far, it's about getting close.
If you want to turn a muzzleloader into a rifle by shoots sabots or bullets, then you problem should go back to rifle hunting.
Thats why many states have traditional muzzleloader hunts with restrictions on projectiles, ignition and no scoped sights. They want hunters to use their muzzleloaders as intended, instead of using their muzzleloaders as rifles so they can hunt in the muzzleloader hunts using rifle hunting tactics.
I think more animals are wounded and lost because too many hunter attempt to turn their muzzleloaders into long range shooter using sabots or bullets. This causes more bad shots being taken and lost animals.
Round balls kill just fine if you are a good hunter, get close and don't attempt to do more than you or your weapon are capable of handling.
Post by: Bean Counter on June 30, 2011, 11:18:55 PM
I feel compelled to add my :twocents:
I have seen multiple animals wounded by roundballs. Here's a prime example of why the pioneers started using elongated projectiles.
When we could still run hounds in WA I had a bear hunter using round balls. My dogs bayed up about a 350 pound bear, we slipped in within 20 yards in heavy cover, dogs are running all around us, bear is putting charges on the dogs trying to grab them, he was too big and slow to get them, finally we had a clear shot at 20ish yards, boooooommmm, smoke clears bear is loooking at us seemingly unharmed, quick reload, pretty quick bbboooommmmm again, bear takes off running and goes a half mile or so, we catch up and slip in close again, bbooommmm smoke clears and bear is still unharmed, this crap goes on for about 6 or 8 shots until hunter is out of ammo. The bear was wounded pretty good by now but by no means dead, we had to wait for quite some time, finally I was able to slip in behind the bear, I made a quick slash with my knife at his throat and got out of the way. Finally after about another 30 minutes he bled to death.
Upon dressing and skinning the bear we found that the roundies would hit, flatten out some on impact, and not get enough penetration to kill a big animal like that.
One year we were restricted to round balls during a muzzleloader mule deer season in Idaho. We had killed lots of bucks with MZ bullets and now all we could use were round balls. The balls never killed a single deer, we lost 7 bucks, we did get 1 buck but we had to run up and hold it down while we cut its throat. One hunter quit hunting after 4 wounded bucks, it was the most disgusting mess I ever saw.
RB's should be illegal for big game due to lack of effectiveness. Just my opinion.... :twocents:
Well I haven't made the plunge into MZ hunting yet though I've thought about it. BP sure has convinced me through is broad experience that ball ammo isn't preferable. For my tenture down here in Arizona, I do often :dunno: when I'm at the range and I see guys with scoped MZ guns shooting out to 150 yards or even 200. I think in general WA has better MZ laws.
BTW, BP, you really need to talk this story up a bit. I mean, it really (seriously) is sad about how the bear had to go, but if there's any story I've heard you tell that entitles you to a Pulp Fiction, B.M.F. wallet carrying status, its this... "So there we were, with a wounded bear--nine feet tall and 600 pounds of crazy... Claws tearing into trees like ice axes. When the lead ran dry I knew it was up to my trusty hand-sharpened shank and I. I low-crawled up to that bruiser of a bruin with my knife in my mouth, clothed in only my loin cloth of course, and wrestled it down for nearly an hour until I finally slit its throat and watched the life drain from his eyes. As I smoked my victory cigar I thought... 'just another day at the office'."
:rockin:
Post by: busterbrown on July 01, 2011, 07:11:49 PM
But, think of this, how many animals are lost every year during rifle seasons?
Even large caliber rifles with large bullets made with the right materials may not guarantee a clean kill. Even if the shot is place in the right spot, with the right bullet, many animals still get away.
Anyway, what ever you elect to shoot, master your skills and enjoy the great outdoors and the hunting experience.