Hunting Washington Forum

Other Activities => Fishing => Topic started by: singleshot12 on May 04, 2008, 08:19:22 PM

Title: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: singleshot12 on May 04, 2008, 08:19:22 PM: Local rivers,streams,estuaries,and coastlines in Westen Washington are infested with Dollies. Their main diet is salmon/steelhead eggs and fry,with a lot of these eggs and smolts being endangered wild stock.
For some reason Dolly Vardon are listed as threatened and thus are protected??
Could someone PLEASE help me with a logical answer to this VERY perplexing question?
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Houndhunter on May 04, 2008, 08:40:40 PM: ive never fished a place that has been full of them, if there is such a place let me know ive been dying to catch a big one. I've caught one in the nooch, and had people i was with catch them out in yale and merwin lakes too. they seem to be pretty scarce, never knew they ventured out into salt water too :dunno:
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: ICEMAN on May 04, 2008, 09:03:28 PM: singleshot12, that is a damned good question. Someone here should know...
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: coastalghost on May 04, 2008, 09:48:52 PM: http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/bulltrt/bulldoly.htm

Here is a link for ya: Should give you a synopsis of reasons for listing and the longterm plan for recovery.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Armadillo on May 04, 2008, 09:51:58 PM: My dads a fisheries biologist. He says they arent "infesting" the rivers. Theres a large population of them in the skagit and they can be found in many local rivers and estuaries but they arent having any damaging effect on the salmon population as of today although they are predatory fish and feed when hungry whether it be on cutthroat fry or salmon eggs, they have done so since the glaciers melted. They are mainly a cold water fish and are a very old species thus giving them a glacial relic status in the scientific community. They need cold water and studies have shown that there habitat will be affected due to melting glaciers and rising global temperatures and since there has been a recent surge on global warming awareness scientists are concerned about their long term survival.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Red Dawg on May 04, 2008, 09:53:36 PM: I have caught them in many different rivers, and yes they do get huge.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: WAcoueshunter on May 04, 2008, 10:31:02 PM: They're a native species, and it's all part of the natural food chain. The ESA doesn't ignore a species simply because it preys on another that also might happen to be protected. Orcas eat salmon too. Should we kill those? Or how about eagles, osprey, herons, bears, sea ducks, sea run cutts, and basically every larger fish that lives in the ocean?
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: jackelope on May 04, 2008, 10:31:36 PM: dollies are sea-run bull trout. bull trout are the protected ones, but you can't tell the difference between a dolly and a bull.
saying they are infesting our rivers is probably a little strong.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: singleshot12 on May 05, 2008, 07:21:43 AM: Thanks, maybe saying they are infested was a little too strong,but in the skagit for example they are doing real good while the native steelhead and chinook are doing very poor. To close down the whole state of wash. to the retention of dollies still seems very extreme to me.
Not sure about how global warming is effecting them but i'm sure they are tougher than the salmon and will out live them.One thing i'm sure of is the gill nets still get the majority of the 5+ pound dollies which are the spawners.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Dman on May 05, 2008, 08:31:36 AM: They are different species altogether, see link.
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:ArKKUBvcF0gJ:library.fws.gov/Pubs1/bulltrout.pdf+Dolly+Varden+vs.+Bull+Trout&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

I have to differ with some opinion on population level. I won't say where, but an area on the Skagit system I fish regularly is "infested" with them, if infested means you can catch a mature Dolly at any given time and not much else. I have to believe since the salmon do spawn in this trib, they do impact the salmon on that stream, frankly I think DFW has always taken the path of least resistance on this topic by lumping the two together in the regs. If you look at pictures of both, they do look quite different and an experienced fisherman should be able to tell the difference, catch and realease of Bull trout and catch and keep for Dollie's should be permitted.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: singleshot12 on May 05, 2008, 10:06:35 AM: Thanks Dman,great pics.,and since you are out there on that river your answer is the most realistic so far.
There was a reason(not too long ago) there was a bounty on dolly's.
I've fished Dolly's in the rivers and salt for almost forty years and have NEVER seen as much dollies as i'm seeing now.
One more thought, I remember a few years back when Dolly's were listed as threatened and it was a major accomplishment for the enviro's. They were the only ones who were really happy about it.
Dolly Vardon are great fish and have their place in the food chain,but in areas where they are thriving and other salmon and trout species are suffering,it only makes sense to atleast have a season for Dolly's. The State,the economy,the fish,the sport fisherman would all benifit.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 05, 2008, 10:52:16 AM: Are Dolly Varden really endangered?

I saw a guy kill 6 of em last week................

There like rats in AK :dunno:
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Alchase on May 05, 2008, 12:10:43 PM: Here is a linky with some answers
http://wdfw.wa.gov/factshts/bultrout.htm
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: boneaddict on May 05, 2008, 01:21:02 PM: I think compared to Gill netting, and sea lions, what the Dollies do to the salmon runs is pretty inconsequential. Sort of like herons or KingFishers or otters.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Intruder on May 05, 2008, 02:49:06 PM: Quote from: boneaddict on May 05, 2008, 01:21:02 PM
I think compared to Gill netting, and sea lions, what the Dollies do to the salmon runs is pretty inconsequential. Sort of like herons or KingFishers or otters.

I totally agree. It's like hawks are to pheasant. They take their fair share but compared to barn cats, skunks, foxes, and racoons they don't put a significant dent into the population.

I've caught some dandies on the Skagit years ago. Talked to the biologist that used to work that area (Kurt Kramer, I think) and he claimed that the biggest fish ate suckers or whitefish (can't remember). He claimed an 8lber would gobble up a 1/2lb. sucker. I think they're a super cool fish... used to luv fishin for em.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Dman on May 05, 2008, 03:05:35 PM: Quote from: Intruder on May 05, 2008, 02:49:06 PM
Quote from: boneaddict on May 05, 2008, 01:21:02 PM
I think compared to Gill netting, and sea lions, what the Dollies do to the salmon runs is pretty inconsequential. Sort of like herons or KingFishers or otters.

I totally agree. It's like hawks are to pheasant. They take their fair share but compared to barn cats, skunks, foxes, and racoons they don't put a significant dent into the population.

I've caught some dandies on the Skagit years ago. Talked to the biologist that used to work that area (Kurt Kramer, I think) and he claimed that the biggest fish ate suckers or whitefish (can't remember). He claimed an 8lber would gobble up a 1/2lb. sucker. I think they're a super cool fish... used to luv fishin for em.

It's reasonable to believe that also in conjunction with the DFW studie's that the impact on salmon varies per stream and population levels. The Skagit trib I fish has to be supplemented annually several times a year with trucked in adult salmon, in large part because of the Dolly population there as I've been told by the resident biologist in that area feed on their roe. He did not agree that all streams containing Dolly's should be kept "off limits". That is the topic, not overall impact to salmon, but rather should Dolly's be protected Statewide, or should we fish for them, or are we currently allowed to fish for them.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Dman on May 05, 2008, 03:10:17 PM: I would add also that though it is a different topic, I do agree there are bigger threats to salmon, that DV are not one of the major threats but it would be great to fish for them again in some areas now closed.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: boneaddict on May 05, 2008, 03:32:45 PM: Same thoughts go with wolves. The Dolly is just a wolf of the stream.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: jackelope on May 05, 2008, 04:30:11 PM: Quote
If you look at pictures of both, they do look quite different and an experienced fisherman should be able to tell the difference

we've already done the fish id challenge marathon...so i'll leave that alone, but looking at the 2 pics you posted, you've got a hook-nosed full spawn male bull trout and a nice fresh from the salt hen(i think) dolly below...apples and oranges. while i agree that an experienced angler should be able to tell the difference, a lot can't. hit a stream where there are bull trout and brook trout. there will be a sign on every tree explaining the differences between the 2. it's not easy to tell the difference by any stretch, i don't care who you are.
i am not a catch and keep guy, i release most all of what i catch in rivers, so i don't really care too much about a catch and kill season on anything.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: boneaddict on May 05, 2008, 05:34:51 PM: My biggest to date is 13 pounds, back when you could take them out of the water and scale them in a net. I've caught several in the 8 to nine pound range and a WHOLE bunch in te h 3-5 pound range, all in the Methow. A couple of thoise I was trout fishing and thought I had hung up on bottom. The otehrs were while steelheading. There have been Dollies in there for a LONG.....time.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: boneaddict on May 05, 2008, 05:36:01 PM: p.s. if you are targetting them or want too, there are some streams in Canada that are loaded with them, and a dominant catch in them.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: coastalghost on May 05, 2008, 05:50:19 PM: Yah bone...I was part of the radio tag study initiated at Rock Island and Rocky Reach Dams to study the movements of migrant adult bull trout. It was amazing the distances they would travel to their spawning areas and where they would spend the winters. There is a large population that enters the twisp river, chiwawa river, and especially the Mad river out of the Entiat. We selected for larger size for tagging purposes and tagged some in the 10-12 lb range. They are truly a beautiful fish especially when you can see them swimming in the fish ladder viewing area with their white border edged fins. Most of the perennial higher order streams that originate in glaciated areas contain bulls.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: singleshot12 on May 05, 2008, 06:48:34 PM: So from what I understand now is the Bull trout and the Dolly are two different strains of char and the "Bull trout" travels into the same waters as the Dolly,and since they are so similar in appearance that the average Joe fisherperson would not tell the difference,so the only solution is to put them all on the threatened list,which they are.
It would be interesting to find out how the Bull trout habitat restoration is coming along and if the fisheries dept. are trying to gather Bull trout eggs for the hatcheries too.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: coastalghost on May 05, 2008, 07:57:21 PM: The "Dolly" varden char is more of a term for an anadromous char. Bull trout or char are more described as a land-locked char specie. The bull char of the upper columbia and tribs rear in the "ocean like" conditions that exist between dams and then migrate to their spawning areas. Some spawn and move out of the tribs before winter while others will spend the whole winter in the trib....CCCcolddd!

We used to catch alot of dollies in the Queets river, Hoh etc....all derived from glaciers. While you still will there certainly not as many as there used to be.

Some of the biggest dollies we caught years ago was in the Sauk river. You swore you had a nice summerun on. I think 10 lbs was the biggest we caught. Awesome fish! They sure love eggs!
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: boneaddict on May 05, 2008, 08:16:55 PM: One of my best memories of catching one was on the Methow. I was steelheading some real fast water, and there was a very big seem. I was using a Teeny T500 (I think) sink and a weighted black muddler minnow. I missed the seam and I seen this big yellow belly flash. I had no idea what it was. Next cast i threaded the seam, and it just stopped like I hung up onm the boulder. I tugged and tugged again and was trying to get it unhooked, and all of a sudden it swung into the current and away we went. 9 pounds later. Nice Dolly.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Armadillo on May 05, 2008, 08:19:44 PM: They definitely grow big in the Sauk River. Prime habitat
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: boneaddict on May 05, 2008, 08:21:33 PM: The Sauk is just about like the Methow. Good river to fish. Question for some of you locals. Does it get any chum?
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Dman on May 05, 2008, 09:33:45 PM: The Dolly population in the Baker Lake drainages are landlocked, and definitely Dolly's not Bull trout, I'm not sure I've ever read anywhere that all Dolly's are migratory, it would be good to see an article, if someone can find one.

Josh, it's still a Cutthroat.... :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Dman on May 06, 2008, 08:14:52 AM: Quote from: boneaddict on May 05, 2008, 08:16:55 PM
One of my best memories of catching one was on the Methow. I was steelheading some real fast water, and there was a very big seem. I was using a Teeny T500 (I think) sink and a weighted black muddler minnow. I missed the seam and I seen this big yellow belly flash. I had no idea what it was. Next cast i threaded the seam, and it just stopped like I hung up onm the boulder. I tugged and tugged again and was trying to get it unhooked, and all of a sudden it swung into the current and away we went. 9 pounds later. Nice Dolly.

That's a huge Dolly for Wa., my best is 5lbs, caught a ton in the 3-5lb range.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Intruder on May 06, 2008, 08:31:48 AM: I've seen quite a few DV (this was 10+ years ago) come out of the Skagit system over 10lbs. My personal best was only 7/8ish. One of my ol' flyfishing buddies got a 15 sumthin when we were stealhead fishing. I lost 1 about 10-12lbs right at my feet when the bugger starting doin their typical roll maneuver.

Quote from: coastalghost on May 05, 2008, 07:57:21 PM
The "Dolly" varden char is more of a term for an anadromous char. Bull trout or char are more described as a land-locked char specie.

That is my basic understanding too.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Dman on May 06, 2008, 09:26:34 AM: Quote from: Intruder on May 06, 2008, 08:31:48 AM
I've seen quite a few DV (this was 10+ years ago) come out of the Skagit system over 10lbs. My personal best was only 7/8ish. One of my ol' flyfishing buddies got a 15 sumthin when we were stealhead fishing. I lost 1 about 10-12lbs right at my feet when the bugger starting doin their typical roll maneuver.

Quote from: coastalghost on May 05, 2008, 07:57:21 PM
The "Dolly" varden char is more of a term for an anadromous char. Bull trout or char are more described as a land-locked char specie.

That is my basic understanding too.

Another good read:

http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlife_news.view_article&articles_id=147
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: coastalghost on May 06, 2008, 09:41:18 AM: Thanks for the link Dman....
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Bearhunter on May 06, 2008, 09:45:47 AM: The Sauk produces some giants, along with the Suattle. Back when you could fish it we caught a few up in the Suattle. Another good one is the Cascade, and there is bull trout in it also, the upper reaches of the cascade is a good spot to find them, not sure if you can fish up there anymore though. Bone asked if the sauk had chums, yes it does have a chum run, we used to see them up in the sloughs out of Darrington.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Bscman on May 06, 2008, 03:28:52 PM: I've fished the lower skagit for dumpy's every season I could, and catch at least 1 or 2 dolly's a year on pink spoons....all of 'em in the 3-5lb range.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: jackelope on May 06, 2008, 07:16:05 PM: Quote
Question for some of you locals. Does it get any chum?

yes.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: singleshot12 on May 08, 2008, 06:31:00 AM: So do the Bull trout from rivers like the Columbia end up traveling into the rivers like the Skagit system?
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: Dman on May 08, 2008, 08:24:43 AM: Quote from: singleshot12 on May 08, 2008, 06:31:00 AM
So do the Bull trout from rivers like the Columbia end up traveling into the rivers like the Skagit system?

No, that is really my point, Bull trout populations are not transitory from salt, to other fresh water systems the way Dolly Varden populations are. In other words, their populations have remained in the same areas over long periods of time and will not expand by nature, so in that regard Dolly's should be fished for anywhere Bull trout don't currently reside, as there is limited chance Bull trout would expand into that area. I do agree with bolstering their populations in their traditional range, problem is their historical range is not agreed on by most biologists.
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: singleshot12 on May 08, 2008, 09:13:55 AM: Hmmmm...I'm going to write a letter to the Salmon and Steelhead council...
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: singleshot12 on May 11, 2008, 07:37:27 AM: Well now I hear from a very reliable source that there are five nets across the Skagit river netting the so-called endangered run of Kings? The Indians police themselves now which basically gives them the opportunity to net any day of the year for any species of fish? And the Skagit is listed as one of the best rivers for sport fishing?
And last but not least the top guy in charge of the fisheries tells me he estimates that the whole Skagit and Samish will be shut down to ALL sport fishing in about five years,mainly due to groups like the Sierra Club and other "save the world organizations".
What's it going to be like to tell my kids-"Well we can't fish anymore?"
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: jackelope on May 11, 2008, 10:23:58 AM: here's some info/babble/talk from another site if you want to do some surfing.

http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/board/showthread.php?t=45738&highlight=skagit+closure

http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/board/showthread.php?t=45889&highlight=skagit+closure

http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/board/showthread.php?t=45314&highlight=skagit+closure

you could spend days there reading about closures and other resource related stuff...
Title: Re: Dolly Vardon?
Post by: singleshot12 on May 11, 2008, 07:27:16 PM: Thanks for the links jackelope,it's a sad deal, but I'm glad to see there is alot of concern at least.