Post by: quadrafire on February 10, 2011, 07:54:51 AM
Post by: jackelope on February 10, 2011, 08:09:54 AM
Post by: quadrafire on February 10, 2011, 08:18:39 AM
Post by: fair-chase on February 10, 2011, 11:15:56 AM
I think I will check mine with some plastiguage before making a decision on wether or not to lap them. If they are as bad as the ones in the video I would definitely do it. Those didn't offer much holding power looking at the contact areas. Thanks again for the info Quadrafire.
Post by: gaddy on February 10, 2011, 11:22:39 AM
Post by: bobcat on February 10, 2011, 11:33:11 AM
http://www.burrisoptics.com/pdf/sigrings.pdf (http://www.burrisoptics.com/pdf/sigrings.pdf)
Post by: haugenna on February 10, 2011, 11:35:42 AM
good info. ill be checking mine. doesnt make sence to mount a high dollar scope into rings that arent true. thanks
You see this with a lot of guns that mount the scope base on a round surface. The tikkas are a flat rail so they don't need lapping. The remington 700's mount on a round surface. If you imagine trying to drill a hole into a round piece of metal you will notice that the dril bit wanders ever so slightly and you may not be centered perfectly on the crown of the radius. Small deviations in the screw hole angle and location cause issues on the rings and may require lapping.
Its not the rings or the bases. They are machined pretty precise.
Post by: quadrafire on February 10, 2011, 11:37:45 AM
good info. ill be checking mine. doesnt make sence to mount a high dollar scope into rings that arent true. thanks
You see this with a lot of guns that mount the scope base on a round surface. The tikkas are a flat rail so they don't need lapping. The remington 700's mount on a round surface. If you imagine trying to drill a hole into a round piece of metal you will notice that the dril bit wanders ever so slightly and you may not be centered perfectly on the crown of the radius. Small deviations in the screw hole angle and location cause issues on the rings and may require lapping.
Its not the rings or the bases. They are machined pretty precise.
That makes sense!.
If you use Burris Signature rings, there is no need for lapping:You tried these Bobcat?
http://www.burrisoptics.com/pdf/sigrings.pdf (http://www.burrisoptics.com/pdf/sigrings.pdf)
Post by: bobcat on February 10, 2011, 11:42:14 AM
If you use Burris Signature rings, there is no need for lapping:
http://www.burrisoptics.com/pdf/sigrings.pdf (http://www.burrisoptics.com/pdf/sigrings.pdf)
You tried these Bobcat?
I have not but I've been reading about them for years and contemplating switching all my rifles over to them. A lot of very knowledgeable people swear by them. I have a brand new Bushnell 4200 scope that when I get around to mounting it I think I will use the Burris rings.
Post by: quadrafire on February 10, 2011, 05:45:12 PM
VS
http://cgi.ebay.com/Burris-Signature-Rifle-Scope-Rings-Ring-Set-420512-NEW-/400105528993?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2825dea1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Burris-Signature-Rifle-Scope-Rings-Ring-Set-420512-NEW-/400105528993?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2825dea1)
for One mounting ring set. There are some for more and some for less on the web.
and how many scopes do I have mounted???
Maybe if we bought one lapping kit and passed it around---------Hum!!! that would be an idea.
Post by: Jamieb on February 10, 2011, 06:23:36 PM
Post by: huntandjeep on February 10, 2011, 07:43:02 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on February 10, 2011, 08:22:12 PM
Post by: haugenna on February 10, 2011, 08:43:58 PM
I bought the kit from midway. Lapped all my rings. Did i see a difference no.
You may never see a difference. It might pay you back if you accidently drop your gun on the rocks or drop it on the scope and it doesn't move where it could have moved with minimal scope to ring contact.
I do know that lapping the rings gives you straight scope tube alignment. Torque or tension is not your friend when it comes to accuracy. Lapping greatly reduces that torque.
Post by: huntandjeep on February 12, 2011, 02:28:37 PM
Post by: yorketransport on February 13, 2011, 09:13:20 AM
So far, I haven't noticed a difference between the brands as far as some needing it more than others. They've all needed some, some needed more. If the rings are REALLY far off, I'll just switch to the Burris Signature rings. Normally I only use those when I want to have the option of built in elevation adjustment.
My thoughts run right along with Haugenna. I don't want to spend good money on a scope only to have it twisted and torqued in a set of misaligned rings. Plus, when I pull my scope off of the rifle it looks as good as new. Lapping the rings gives them a better grip on your scope so that the scope doesn't slip or get ring marks.
Andrew
Post by: quadrafire on February 13, 2011, 09:40:04 AM
Which lapping product do you use?
Could you use an old scope w/ lapping compound? or would the metal be too soft?
Post by: yorketransport on February 13, 2011, 05:48:45 PM
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=227261 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=227261)
If the rings are really bad, you could ream them, but I'd probably just use the Burris Signatures in that case.
Could you use an old scope w/ lapping compound? or would the metal be too soft?
I think that an old scope would be too soft, but it's worth a try. I have an old beat up Simmons that I might use to try it out. :chuckle:
Andrew
Post by: huntandjeep on February 13, 2011, 07:55:10 PM
Post by: GregMcFadden on February 13, 2011, 10:02:29 PM
-Greg
Post by: thinkingman on February 14, 2011, 09:49:54 AM
Post by: quadrafire on March 08, 2011, 12:18:26 PM
Here is another addition to the lapping post. Kind of interesting
Epoxy Method of Scope Mounting
submitted by Paul Workman.
Based on an article by Rick Jamison of "Shooting Times" Magazine
Distortion of the scope tube (bending) can result in vertical or horizontal adjustments either sticking or not returning to the original set point after being adjusted for wind and elevation. For example, sometimes an adjustment or two will produce no change in POI, and a subsequent adjustment results in a huge jump in one or sometimes both the vertical and horizontal directions. Another example is the scope not returning to zero, even if the corrections are ultimately made in the same (“down and left” ) directions.
Scope tube bending can take place if the alignment of the rings is off by only a few thousandths of an inch. This can occur as result of errors in the rings or the height of the receiver between the rings. Further, if the axis of the rings are not in perfect alignment with relation to each other, the scope tube will be bent which can result in binding. Both of these situations can exist whether a one or two piece scope base is used, depending on the rings and the base(s) used…in theory anyway. And, there is some potential for distorting the tube by over-tightening the ring caps.
Lapping or epoxy can be used to correct the alignment problem.
Lapping has the advantage of being perhaps the fastest method from start to finish, but it must be done carefully and patiently to avoid creating more problems than the one intended to be solved. The lapping tools wear out and a worn lapp can result in less than perfectly straight and aligned surfaces for the scope to rest in. Constant and uniform pressure and elbow grease must be applied to a lapp in fresh & true condition. And, even with the best of lapping jobs, the actual fit to the scope tube is almost never perfect: The radius of the scope tube being less than the radius of the ring resulting from lapping – usually resulting in a two point hold when the scope tube is sandwiched between the bottom half of the ring and the top half. The result is less grip on the scope often leading the shooter to over torque the cap screws in order to assure the tube doesn’t slip under recoil. Thus the tube is distorted by taking on an oval at the point of ring contact; which may or may not cause a problem depending on degree of distortion and other factors.
Epoxy mounting solves the perfect fit problem. The epoxy exactly fills the gap between the bottom half of the rings and the body of the scope tube. The fit is similar to that resulting from glass bedding the action into the stock; complete and continuous. However, start to finish requires about 24 hours, depending on the epoxy used. One the other hand, the epoxy method requires no elbow grease.
Epoxy Procedure:
After mounting the rings and aligning them to your specifications, remove the top half of the rings and degrease the contact (saddle) area of the bottom half.
Put release agent (I use wax or shoe polish) on all other ring surfaces to keep the epoxy from sticking to where it will ooze under pressure; don’t forget the screw holes.
Place a coating of metal impregnated (I use JB Weld) epoxy in the saddle of the bottom rings; about 1-2 mm (1/16th inch) thick and spread it evenly over the entire surface of the ring saddle.
After waxing the scope in the ring contact area, place it in the rings and hold it down firmly but gently in place with either a couple heavy rubber bands, or use the top half of the rings, tightening them down until the epoxy oozes out the sides. Not too tight – just enough to seat the scope tube against the rings; but no more (it’s a feel thing). (Note: Only a rough orientation of the scope to the final position is required at this time.)
After the epoxy sets up to a stiff plastic consistency (about 6-8 hours @ 70° F for JB Weld), remove the scope and trim away the excess epoxy ooze (I use an Exacto knife), leaving only the layer in the bottom of the ring saddles.
Remount the scope and the rubber bands and let the epoxy cure (for a total of 24 hours if using JB Weld).
The secret to the scope staying put under recoil comes now: Before you clamp it in place, use some powdered resin (available in sporting goods stores – I use a little bag intended for tennis) and powder the scope all around the tube in the area contacted by the rings. After the scope is situated where you want it, tighten it in place, firmly without over doing it.
The resin will do the lions share of the holding – far better than the rings alone, in my experience. The scope is now held in a mold making an exact fit – providing maximum contact. Thus the resin/epoxy mounting applies tremendous holding ability compared to the point contact holding that usually results even after lapping. This means less need to crank down on the top half of the scope rings, and thus lessening potential for distorting the scope due to over tightening the top half of the rings.
Not counting curing time, time spent aligning the rings and later the scope itself, the epoxy method requires less than 5 minutes actual effort. Not often is easier better, especially when it comes to accuracy.
Good luck!
Paul W
Post by: steelyonfly on June 11, 2011, 06:52:41 PM
Post by: addicted on June 17, 2011, 11:22:27 PM
I've also seen guys use a brass hammer to mount rings on dovetail actions along with epoxy for a very perminant finish.
The scopes that get epoxied in and are removed several years later tend to go for pretty cheap because the epoxy takes off the finish at the ring points.
Post by: Wacenturion on June 24, 2011, 06:52:56 AM
http://www.dnzproducts.com/ (http://www.dnzproducts.com/)
Post by: addicted on June 25, 2011, 03:33:03 AM
i was going to put them on my mountain rifle build..... but it looks like that may be different set up than i was planning making DNZ useless.
Post by: quadrafire on September 12, 2011, 06:11:01 PM
Post by: high country on September 14, 2011, 09:37:43 AM
I bed bases with jb, but never a scope. I feel that if I am adding release, what can it do that a lapped surface can't? Bedded bases can add only a minute amount of stability.....but thousandths make inches.
Post by: quadrafire on September 14, 2011, 11:09:44 AM
Quad, a 1" piece of tgp will work along with some compound. I have one you can use or for about $2.00 at cda metals you can have your own.
I had thought about that. Thanks for the info.