Post by: kerrdog on April 16, 2011, 09:36:51 PM
My grandfather-in-law says he called in a mountain lion while turkey hunting once. And he said he never goes out without "his old pistola."
Can I get a ticket?
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 16, 2011, 09:39:37 PM
-Steve
Post by: Rhinoron247 on April 16, 2011, 09:42:00 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 16, 2011, 09:48:33 PM
Quote
A modern handgun may be carried for
personal protection. Modern handguns
cannot be used to hunt big game or
dispatch wounded big game during a big
game hunting season for muzzleloading
firearms.
Post by: bobcat on April 16, 2011, 09:58:12 PM
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 16, 2011, 10:01:19 PM
Oh, also I forgot to mention: you can carry your handgun concealed without a permit. You do not need a permit to carry a concealed weapon while hunting (or any other outdoor activity).
That is very true, but the first time a guy gets in his truck with it concealed without the CPL, you're treading a very fine line that will be tough to beat in court. (road hunting?)
-Steve
Post by: bobcat on April 16, 2011, 10:04:55 PM
Quote
(8.) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060)
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 16, 2011, 10:07:55 PM
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 17, 2011, 12:56:16 PM
-Steve
Post by: bobcat on April 17, 2011, 01:05:04 PM
Post by: YoterHunter on April 17, 2011, 03:37:46 PM
Post by: kerrdog on April 18, 2011, 07:43:39 AM
Post by: phishisgroovin on April 18, 2011, 08:24:04 AM
Post by: Rhinoron247 on April 18, 2011, 08:29:42 AM
I'm considering getting a permit. I had one years ago in Oregon. It seemed to make the cops especially wary during traffic stops. One policewoman even asked me, "what do you need that for?" referring to the permit, since I rarely carried my revolver. I answered, "it's my right, whether you like it or not, and I'm a veteran."
How did the officers involved in the traffic stop know you had the permit?
I have been pulled over several times with my pistol on board and my permit in my wallet and neither have ever come into question or even acknowledged.
Post by: uplandhunter870 on April 18, 2011, 08:51:46 AM
How did the officers involved in the traffic stop know you had the permit?
I have been pulled over several times with my pistol on board and my permit in my wallet and neither have ever come into question or even acknowledged.
im not sure if washington is a full disclosure state or not, meaning you have to tell the officer if your packing during a traffic stop. i was told when i got my permit that i should show my permit regardless if im packing or not and if the officer asks about weapons in the vehicle you have to show your permit and tell him/her where the firearm is.
as said before open carry is perfectly legal in WA but will get you some bad looks and annoying questions from police. imo $56 for the CPL is justifiable for me to avoid looks and being bothered about why i have a weapon on me
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on April 18, 2011, 09:35:52 AM
If you tell them it adds about 1/2 hour im some cases as some wont let you back in your vehicle until a back up shows up.
Post by: kerrdog on April 18, 2011, 10:23:16 AM
Post by: Jason on April 18, 2011, 10:30:20 AM
There's nothing wrong with having it concealed while in a vehicle either. The exception in the law allows for that:
Quote(8.) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060)
No where in that paragraph does it state thate you can legaly carry a concealed firearm in a vehical without a
CWP. It says traveling, It doesn't say traving by vehical, there are many ways of traveling besides driving a vehical.
Post by: Curly on April 18, 2011, 10:45:43 AM
There's nothing wrong with having it concealed while in a vehicle either. The exception in the law allows for that:
Quote(8.) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060)
No where in that paragraph does it state thate you can legaly carry a concealed firearm in a vehical without a
CWP. It says traveling, It doesn't say traving by vehical, there are many ways of traveling besides driving a vehical.
But it says "The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:"
And goes on to list the exceptions.
Seems to me that the way it is worded that it is okay to carry a concealed weapon while traveling to or from an outdoor activity.
Now, with that said, I would still not be surprised to get a ticket if stopped by an officer while traveling to or from an outdoor activity with a concealed weapon on me. It is a shame to have laws on the books to protect us, but yet still be afraid to exercise our rights because we know we'll get railroaded.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 18, 2011, 10:53:14 AM
Big game, except cougar, may be hunted with
handguns with a minimum barrel length of 4
inches per manufacturers specification, and
fire a minimum 24 caliber centerfire cartridge.
The minimum for cougar is a 22 caliber
centerfire handgun. Rimfire handguns are not
legal for big game."
In addition, it is illegal to carry a concealed handgun in the State of WA without a CPL. Game wardens are law enforcement officials. If you break a WA law, they can bust you for it.
Also, regarding shooting a cougar, you can only shoot them with a bow during archery season, a muzzleloader during ML season, and then any weapon from the middle of October on to Dec. 31st. Look at requirements and the table under "General Cougar Seasons" to clarify. This changed last year and got by a good many folks, including me.
Post by: Machias on April 18, 2011, 11:03:18 AM
In addition, it is illegal to carry a concealed handgun in the State of WA without a CPL. Game wardens are law enforcement officials. If you break a WA law, they can bust you for it.
I'm AMAZED at the number of WA residents that don't know this is WRONG! You can carry concealed in the state of WA WITHOUT a CPL anytime you are engaged in a lawful outdoor activity. You do NOT need a CPL when you are in the outdoors. Check out RCW 9.41.060 section 8.
Post by: grundy53 on April 18, 2011, 11:04:28 AM
Post by: Curly on April 18, 2011, 11:07:09 AM
In addition, it is illegal to carry a concealed handgun in the State of WA without a CPL. Game wardens are law enforcement officials. If you break a WA law, they can bust you for it.
I'm AMAZED at the number of WA residents that don't know this is WRONG! You can carry concealed in the state of WA WITHOUT a CPL anytime you are engaged in a lawful outdoor activity. You do NOT need a CPL when you are in the outdoors. Check out RCW 9.41.060 section 8.
:yeah:
And that section 8 of RCW is listed just a couple posts above.......
Post by: rtspring on April 18, 2011, 11:08:10 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 18, 2011, 11:14:18 AM
Post by: MADMAX on April 18, 2011, 11:19:52 AM
Nope no ticket.
Post by: Rhinoron247 on April 18, 2011, 11:21:51 AM
I assumed that the cops ran my plate # and got my permit info from that! I'm also guessing that the cops in Portland are a little more Liberal than the cops in Cle Elum; especially the lady cops. :drool:
LOL Yeah in Cle Elum your ticketed if you don't have a gun in your rig. :rolleyes: I guess I would consider that a "Don't ask don't tell" situation.
Post by: Machias on April 18, 2011, 11:23:04 AM
Believe it and get over yourself. Thanks for the correction.
I'm sorry pianoman to have hurt your feelings, but before you spout off about what is or is not legal please check your facts. ;)
Post by: BallisticsNut on April 18, 2011, 11:26:33 AM
If you carry a concealed pistol in your vehicle without a CPL and you do this as part of your everyday activities and when you get pulled over you tell the LEO that you are "Heading to" or "Returning from" an outdoor activitiy to save your ass, your no different then any other low life law breaker. You just might not got caught.
Someone asked about how the does a LEO know you have a CPL when you are pulled over. Answer: Its attached to your drivers license record. When you DL is run, it will show that you have a CPL. You are not LEGALLY required to "announce" that you have a CPL or a concealed weapon on your person or in vehicle when you are pulled over. IMHO, its in your best interest not to annouce but to hand over your CPL when pulled over. Its a non verbal way of stating, your carrying and should put everyone at ease.
Post by: Rhinoron247 on April 18, 2011, 11:29:48 AM
If your hunting or traveling too and from a hunt or gun range or other similar activity, its legal to carry concealed... that is IF you are actually participating in a legal outdoor activity!
If you carry a concealed pistol in your vehicle without a CPL and you do this as part of your everyday activities and when you get pulled over you tell the LEO that you are "Heading to" or "Returning from" an outdoor activitiy to save your ass, your no different then any other low life law breaker. You just might not got caught.
Someone asked about how the does a LEO know you have a CPL when you are pulled over. Answer: Its attached to your drivers license record. When you DL is run, it will show that you have a CPL. You are not LEGALLY required to "announce" that you have a CPL or a concealed weapon on your person or in vehicle when you are pulled over. IMHO, its in your best interest not to annouce but to hand over your CPL when pulled over. Its a non verbal way of stating, your carrying and should put everyone at ease.
Thanks for answering that, wondered if it were brought up when they run your info.
Post by: StacyDave97 on April 18, 2011, 01:05:02 PM
If your hunting or traveling too and from a hunt or gun range or other similar activity, its legal to carry concealed... that is IF you are actually participating in a legal outdoor activity!
If you carry a concealed pistol in your vehicle without a CPL and you do this as part of your everyday activities and when you get pulled over you tell the LEO that you are "Heading to" or "Returning from" an outdoor activitiy to save your ass, your no different then any other low life law breaker. You just might not got caught.
Someone asked about how the does a LEO know you have a CPL when you are pulled over. Answer: Its attached to your drivers license record. When you DL is run, it will show that you have a CPL. You are not LEGALLY required to "announce" that you have a CPL or a concealed weapon on your person or in vehicle when you are pulled over. IMHO, its in your best interest not to annouce but to hand over your CPL when pulled over. Its a non verbal way of stating, your carrying and should put everyone at ease.
Thanks for answering that, wondered if it were brought up when they run your info.
No, the above information is wrong, at least in Washington. The fact that you have a CPL is not, in any way, attached to your driver's license. I work in LE so I know this to be true. If you are stopped by a local officer, by local I mean you live in that city, the officer may be aware of a CPL if he checks his local records system, as most police departments will enter the CPL into their database. Also, if there are other surrounding agencies that use the same records system, like a regional system, then those officers will also be able to see that you have a CPL...IF they check their local system. Some do and some don't. Most officers only find out you have a CPL if it is visible when you pull out your driver's license. Mine is not visible, nor do I advertise the fact that I have a CPL, whether I have the gun with me or not. The average officer does not usually ask someone if they have a CPL. The only time I've been asked about it is when I was up by our cabin in Steven's County and then it almost seemed like a standard question :dunno: maybe they are just used to people carrying up in that area more. I'm not a commissioned officer but if I were and someone told me they were carrying, I'd probably be inclined to ask for the weapon until I was finished with the stop.... that's just me but I've heard other LE say the same thing!! Hope this helps answer that question!
Post by: ORCA_SIX on April 18, 2011, 01:14:17 PM
Post by: BallisticsNut on April 18, 2011, 01:23:51 PM
If your hunting or traveling too and from a hunt or gun range or other similar activity, its legal to carry concealed... that is IF you are actually participating in a legal outdoor activity!
If you carry a concealed pistol in your vehicle without a CPL and you do this as part of your everyday activities and when you get pulled over you tell the LEO that you are "Heading to" or "Returning from" an outdoor activitiy to save your ass, your no different then any other low life law breaker. You just might not got caught.
Someone asked about how the does a LEO know you have a CPL when you are pulled over. Answer: Its attached to your drivers license record. When you DL is run, it will show that you have a CPL. You are not LEGALLY required to "announce" that you have a CPL or a concealed weapon on your person or in vehicle when you are pulled over. IMHO, its in your best interest not to annouce but to hand over your CPL when pulled over. Its a non verbal way of stating, your carrying and should put everyone at ease.
Thanks for answering that, wondered if it were brought up when they run your info.
No, the above information is wrong, at least in Washington. The fact that you have a CPL is not, in any way, attached to your driver's license. I work in LE so I know this to be true. If you are stopped by a local officer, by local I mean you live in that city, the officer may be aware of a CPL if he checks his local records system, as most police departments will enter the CPL into their database. Also, if there are other surrounding agencies that use the same records system, like a regional system, then those officers will also be able to see that you have a CPL...IF they check their local system. Some do and some don't. Most officers only find out you have a CPL if it is visible when you pull out your driver's license. Mine is not visible, nor do I advertise the fact that I have a CPL, whether I have the gun with me or not. The average officer does not usually ask someone if they have a CPL. The only time I've been asked about it is when I was up by our cabin in Steven's County and then it almost seemed like a standard question :dunno: maybe they are just used to people carrying up in that area more. I'm not a commissioned officer but if I were and someone told me they were carrying, I'd probably be inclined to ask for the weapon until I was finished with the stop.... that's just me but I've heard other LE say the same thing!! Hope this helps answer that question!
Thats interesting because I was told just the opposite on Sunday by a Federal Criminal Investigator.
Post by: kerrdog on April 18, 2011, 07:07:03 PM
Post by: BallisticsNut on April 18, 2011, 07:26:20 PM
Does anyone think it's a little....dorky...to have a pistol on your belt while hunting? While I want to have it accessible, I'm not trying to look like 'West side adventure boy' I was thinking of carrying it in my pack, and just putting it on my belt to use when packing meat or scouting, or whenever I don't have a rifle on me. :chuckle:I use a military style (Army) thigh holster. That way its right were I need and and ready to go! Oh yea, and it dont get in the way of my pack.
Post by: Bluemoon on April 18, 2011, 07:57:53 PM
He took out the clip and the one from the chamber then put it in my backseat under my coat and told me to get it out when I got home. Then he told me to drive down to exit 99 get some coffee before I drove the rest of the way home.
He was very polite just doing his job and gave me something to talk about for a few days it was very painless.
P.S. Gun was back out and loaded at exit 99 while drinking coffee
Post by: bobcat on April 18, 2011, 08:04:45 PM
There's nothing wrong with having it concealed while in a vehicle either. The exception in the law allows for that:
Quote(8.) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060)
No where in that paragraph does it state thate you can legaly carry a concealed firearm in a vehical without a
CWP. It says traveling, It doesn't say traving by vehical, there are many ways of traveling besides driving a vehical.
It also does not state that you can't. If it doesn't say you can't, then you CAN.
Also, what other ways are there of traveling "to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area"? Most people don't ride horses or walk from their house to where they hunt anymore.
Post by: ghosthunter on April 18, 2011, 11:25:44 PM
I think the WSP and most sheriff Dept are the best trained in carry laws.
I have never declared my handgun or my CPL in 40 years of carry. I would declare if a officer asked me to step out, otherwise never.
All the information you want about carry CC or Oc can be found on opencarry.org WA forum.
Post by: sled on April 19, 2011, 07:28:58 AM
Post by: turkeyfeather on April 19, 2011, 07:42:09 AM
Post by: bigtex on April 19, 2011, 11:16:34 AM
If your hunting or traveling too and from a hunt or gun range or other similar activity, its legal to carry concealed... that is IF you are actually participating in a legal outdoor activity!
If you carry a concealed pistol in your vehicle without a CPL and you do this as part of your everyday activities and when you get pulled over you tell the LEO that you are "Heading to" or "Returning from" an outdoor activitiy to save your ass, your no different then any other low life law breaker. You just might not got caught.
Someone asked about how the does a LEO know you have a CPL when you are pulled over. Answer: Its attached to your drivers license record. When you DL is run, it will show that you have a CPL. You are not LEGALLY required to "announce" that you have a CPL or a concealed weapon on your person or in vehicle when you are pulled over. IMHO, its in your best interest not to annouce but to hand over your CPL when pulled over. Its a non verbal way of stating, your carrying and should put everyone at ease.
Thanks for answering that, wondered if it were brought up when they run your info.
No, the above information is wrong, at least in Washington. The fact that you have a CPL is not, in any way, attached to your driver's license. I work in LE so I know this to be true. If you are stopped by a local officer, by local I mean you live in that city, the officer may be aware of a CPL if he checks his local records system, as most police departments will enter the CPL into their database. Also, if there are other surrounding agencies that use the same records system, like a regional system, then those officers will also be able to see that you have a CPL...IF they check their local system. Some do and some don't. Most officers only find out you have a CPL if it is visible when you pull out your driver's license. Mine is not visible, nor do I advertise the fact that I have a CPL, whether I have the gun with me or not. The average officer does not usually ask someone if they have a CPL. The only time I've been asked about it is when I was up by our cabin in Steven's County and then it almost seemed like a standard question :dunno: maybe they are just used to people carrying up in that area more. I'm not a commissioned officer but if I were and someone told me they were carrying, I'd probably be inclined to ask for the weapon until I was finished with the stop.... that's just me but I've heard other LE say the same thing!! Hope this helps answer that question!
Thats interesting because I was told just the opposite on Sunday by a Federal Criminal Investigator.
It really depends on the state. There is no statewide policy in WA that requires CPL info to be attached to the DL info.
Also, in regards to declaring if you are carrying when you are stopped by a LEO. It depends on the state. I have several friends that work in LE in California and in that state you must declare that you are carrying. If you don't then it is an arrestable offense. Always good to know the laws of the state you are carrying in when you travel.
Post by: longknife on April 19, 2011, 11:54:28 AM
CWP book states, "remember, No single pamphlet can list all safty info, or laws, rules, and regulations." Just cause you dont see it on one book, dosent mean it dosent exhist! Know your rules, and regs.
I have been told by Sno co.(CWP is issued by the county) you must let officers know if you have a cwp in the vehicle. You must have the weapon on you if it is loaded. Remember you are responsible for every bullet, if it is under your seat, and you hit a pot hole, and it goes off, its your responsability. I understand being liberal, and demanding on the rights we were given, but the charges if you mess up, could grant a fellony charge, rendering all your rights.
Non concield weapons are fine, as long as they are unloaded, and visable, in a vehicle.
Just to add, A friend is a retired SnoCo Sheriff. The county can give fellons CWP's. It has to be issued, or denied within a certan time period.(cant remember but i think i recall its 30days)
If the county hasnt done its full background investigation, it is issued. My buddy had to collect fellons with CWP's, not a fun job!
Post by: xd2005 on April 19, 2011, 12:43:07 PM
(quote)It also does not state that you can't. If it doesn't say you can't, then you CAN.
CWP book states, "remember, No single pamphlet can list all safty info, or laws, rules, and regulations." Just cause you dont see it on one book, dosent mean it dosent exhist! Know your rules, and regs.
I have been told by Sno co.(CWP is issued by the county) you must let officers know if you have a cwp in the vehicle.
The CWP book is correct, not every single law, rule, or regulation is included. But the fact remains that there is or is not a law. Just because someone says something does not make it a law unless there is an actual law (or written opinion by an authorized person). The RCW states: (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050)) I will not attempt to interpret the law, that is not my role.
You must have the weapon on you if it is loaded. Remember you are responsible for every bullet, if it is under your seat, and you hit a pot hole, and it goes off, its your responsability. I understand being liberal, and demanding on the rights we were given, but the charges if you mess up, could grant a fellony charge, rendering all your rights.
Yes, you are responsible for your firearm...that is a given, whether it's in your vehicle or elsewhere...HOWEVER, I disagree that a loaded firearm MUST be on your person while in the vehicle. Two items to support this.
First, I was pulled over a few months back by WSP. Loaded pistol in car door (I have CPL). He asked if there were any weapons (he said he already knew by the way we were trying to ensure he felt comfortable -- hands on dash/steering wheel, etc). I noted there was one in the door and he had no problems. Point being, no issue with it not being on my person.
Second, there is a WA AGO letter that indicates that it is not required to be on the person (http://dyna-vault.com/images/Guns (http://dyna-vault.com/images/Guns) in Vehicles.pdf). (note, you need to copy and paste the link due to the spaces)
Post by: longknife on April 19, 2011, 01:44:22 PM
I dont agree with the, "Dont see it, its legal" comment. There are many panphlets, rules and regs constantly being passed, hell the state representitives cant keep up. When the cop asks more questions, and you say, "i didnt know, you couldnt do that" it tends to be a bad thing.
Post by: xd2005 on April 19, 2011, 02:01:37 PM
So the stater that pulled me over last week is wrong? He told me my 44 mag had to be on me. If someone is in the car, it can be rendered by others(had no one in the rig). his statement
I guess so. Did he cite a law?
The law states:
(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
The "OR" makes each mutually exclusive, thus if any one of the three are met it meets the criteria. This is consistent with the WA AGO letter.
The fact is, either the trooper that pulled me over was wrong (also, when I was pulled over, my wife and infant daughter were in the car...wife has a CPL but it was never asked of her) or the one that pulled you over is wrong. Both cannot be right...considering the language of the law and the letter from the AGO, I'm inclined to say that the trooper that pulled you over was not correct.
Post by: longknife on April 19, 2011, 02:19:38 PM
Reminds me of a game of monopoly with childern, the rules are diffrent every game!!
Thats F'D up! if you set it in your rig unattended(concieled). Someone broke in, took the pistol, killed someone, you are liable, because you did not have the loaded pistol on you. Like you said its a given, you are responsable for your loaded weapon, because it is no longer on you, you are at fault.
Post by: Glockster on April 19, 2011, 02:28:28 PM
It's available at most local gun shops.
Post by: bobcat on April 19, 2011, 02:28:52 PM
Post by: dscubame on April 19, 2011, 02:57:56 PM
What if someone steals a baseball bat out of your vehicle and kills someone with it?
A person is not held to the same "duty of care" when in posession of a baseball bat verses a handgun. It is a legal concept.
Post by: xd2005 on April 23, 2011, 07:03:28 AM
WOW, i believe you, but i will end up doing what i was told. Next time, i will ask further, thought it was kinda odd for no one in the rig. But he stated, man 44mag, thats a heavy gun to carry on you at all times.
Reminds me of a game of monopoly with childern, the rules are diffrent every game!!
Thats F'D up! if you set it in your rig unattended(concieled). Someone broke in, took the pistol, killed someone, you are liable, because you did not have the loaded pistol on you. Like you said its a given, you are responsable for your loaded weapon, because it is no longer on you, you are at fault.
First off, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. With that said, a right not defended is no longer a right.
As for responsibility...I would say the level of responsibility is determined by the level of one's carelessness. I would say first, if someone steals your handgun and uses it for a crime, the level of responsibility is less than if you use it for a crime. When I said that we are all responsible, I was primarily talking about our carelessness. If we leave a loaded weapon lying around, insecure, and an accident happens, we are responsible for that, as we obviously did not adequately secure our firearms. On the other hand, if you do everything you should (lock the car, hide the firearms, etc.) and someone steals it and then uses it, the level of responsibility is fairly low (legally anyways) compared to if you were to leave a loaded firearms on the seat in plain view in an unlocked car.