Hunting Washington Forum

Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: Hornseeker on April 26, 2011, 07:20:43 AM

Title: Accurracy Question....
Post by: Hornseeker on April 26, 2011, 07:20:43 AM: So I've done a lot of shooting through the years, but to be honest, I've never "really" sat down on a bench with bags and such and taken the time to shoot THE tightest groups possible. When I reload, I load up several different loads and shoot them at "about" 100 yards and there is usually a combination that shoots the tightest group. Usually with the gun on a bipod on a rickety table or from a prone position on the ground.

This weekend I took my daughters 243 with 7 different loads out.... shooting with the scope on 9X at 100 yards even... bipod on the front and the butt end on a shooting bag, prone. I think the trigger is a little heavy. Anyhow, of the 7 groups, none were really any better than any other. I think the best was a 1.5 inches and the others ranges to 2.25 inches. Do many of you shoot gnats ass groups with that sort of setup or do you have to really bag the rifle in? Also, my reticle is not super fine... at 100 yards, on 9X, I could easily be off a 1/4-1/2 inch on the target... and like I said, I think the trigger pull is too heavy and is causing a little pull on the shot?

My buddies Stag arms AR15 is a dam tack driver though... same shooting setup but with a varmint scope and a NICE trigger, I had 3 bullets touching and with very little effort could keep all groups near an inch or less....

Just curious what kind of groups you guys shoot?
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: KillBilly on April 26, 2011, 07:27:19 AM: what grain bullets were you testing. Most .243s I have encountered won't shoot anything above 90/95 gr. any tighter than you described. Mostly it has to do with the twist. my Tikka in .243 will shoot same hole to 3 touching using Nosler partitions in 90/95 gr.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 26, 2011, 07:29:07 AM: A gunsmith should take a look at your trigger if it's too tight. At 200 yards with a .30-06, I shoot 1" groups with a bag.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: Alchase on April 26, 2011, 12:26:09 PM: In reality some rifles do not have the ability to shoot sub-MOA groups......and neither do some people. I am not implying that you can't, just making a statement. You can have someone else try try the rifle with the same loads to eliminate the human factor. While on 9x how is you hold on target? This may sound backwards, but backing off the power on your scope may actually help your point of aim, especially if your crosshairs are wondering.
Most likely though is that the rifle is shooting to it's ability. Not many rifles guarantee sub-MOA out of the box. And most of those that do have been made in the last few years. So 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards is par for the course for a "common" hunting rifle without any accuracy modifications.
:twocents:
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: Hornseeker on April 26, 2011, 12:42:43 PM: I'll get it sandbagged down real good and really put some effort into some groups soon and let you guys know. Al...I tried my buddies gun and did the 1" thing with it... so though Im NOT the best shot ever, I do have at least some ability... now, my buddy shot my gun 3 shots and actually tightened the group up to about 1.25... so... there is potential....

Thanks all! By the way, they are the Barnes TSX's which are 85 grains I believe....
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: whacker1 on April 26, 2011, 12:49:47 PM: It is also possible that rested on a bipod that you are encountering some specific pressure points where you are no longer free floated. I quit using my bipod on one gun, because it would apply pressure farther out on the end of the barrel where I was no longer free floated depending on the angle of the shot. I have since changed stocks on that gun and have not re-encountered that issue. For comparision, when I hold the same gun off hand or on bags, my grip is further toward the action, so it doesn't encounter the barrel, because the leverage on that stock is different. It sounds a little far fetched, but it only takes a fraction of an inch and bipod mounted on the sling stud can put a lot of leverage on the stock.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 26, 2011, 12:52:24 PM: A couple things that I find help are to use the smallest target possible and to use a small sandbag on top of the scope (such that it helps keep the gun on the lower sandbags--less shooter induced movement).
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 26, 2011, 12:59:46 PM: What the rifle/barrel/twist/thickness/trigger pull/consistency of the ammunition/quality of the bullet/powder selection/, in a combination, without factorying in wind, rest stability, and abilities of the shooter will determine cold bore shot location and subsequent shot impact on target. Are we talking Handi-Rifle with thin short barrel or a Win model 70?

Take my old 03-A3. slightly sporterised stock. Remington 4 groove barrel on a Springfield action. Circa 1943. I've added a nice Timney trigger set at 2 pounds. 3-9x40 Leupold with slolid rings/mount. Hand loaded, fire formed brass with Nosler Partitions or Balistic tips, with the brass neck bullet runnout at less than .002". She'll shoot just at the edge of moa all day long. I have no idea how many thousands of rounds have gone down the barrel.

A Ruger of mine, factory barrel shooting a wildcat chambering will do the same, but with one bullet in particular, I can't push the high velocity envelope. It just doesn't like that bullet moving fast. Shoots it fine if I drop the speed some 400fps though.

Hand loaded fireformed brass in a Rossi single shot 243 with 90gn Hornady or Remingtons would only shoot 1 1/5" groups no matter how finicky I'd get with building the cartridges. I sold my son's starter rifles. They served their purpose as a lightweight, scoped, short barreled single shot carbine.

If my scoped rifle won't shoot moa, (I don't scope my lever guns), I get rid of it or tune the ammo to get the job done.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: Bob33 on April 26, 2011, 01:19:15 PM: I think bench accuracy is over rated. Any gun that shoots 1.5 MOA (or even 2 MOA for that matter) off a bench is plenty good enough for 95% of all big game hunting most hunters will ever do. A gun that consistently shoots into 1.5" at 100 yards should in theory shoot into a 6" circle at 400 yards. That means the bullet should be within 3" of its intended point.

What you often find are shooters that can split peas at 100 yards from the bench, but couldn't hit a basketball at 100 yards under field conditions.

More accuracy is always a good thing, but don't get so hung up on it that you lose sleep or throw away perfectly good firearms. Have fun, and get away from the bench as often as possible. :twocents:
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: MtnMuley on April 26, 2011, 01:24:24 PM: Quote from: Bob33 on April 26, 2011, 01:19:15 PM
What you often find are shooters that can split peas at 100 yards from the bench, but couldn't hit a basketball at 100 yards under field conditions.

If that isn't the truth! Better yet, those with thousands invested that can't find the animal to shoot. :)
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 26, 2011, 01:26:40 PM: Quote from: MtnMuley on April 26, 2011, 01:24:24 PM
Quote from: Bob33 on April 26, 2011, 01:19:15 PM
What you often find are shooters that can split peas at 100 yards from the bench, but couldn't hit a basketball at 100 yards under field conditions.

If that isn't the truth! Better yet, those with thousands invested that can't find the animal to shoot. :)

Bob's right. 1.5" at 100 yards is enough for a clean kill.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 26, 2011, 01:36:48 PM: I agree that bench accuracy is over rated. I try to go with 'killzone' accuracy.

If you want to tighten your groups a bit. Sight the cross hairs like this.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: huntnfmly on April 26, 2011, 01:59:36 PM: Quote from: JackOfAllTrades on April 26, 2011, 01:36:48 PM
I agree that bench accuracy is over rated. I try to go with 'killzone' accuracy. :yeah:
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: Hornseeker on April 26, 2011, 02:25:58 PM: I like the idea of that target Jack... thanks.

You know, thats funny, I didn't think about the bipod pressure the stock a different way....I totally forgot to mention. This gun is new (sorta) and WHILE shooting it I thought the barrel looked a little closer to the wood on one side than the other... took the old dollar bill out of my wallet and yeppers...I could only slide it about 4 inches down... not free floated at all. Will fix that and get it bedded right before I shoot it again....
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: MtnMuley on April 26, 2011, 02:37:31 PM: 3/4" black electrical tape cross at a hundred yards seems to work great also, hornseeker.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 26, 2011, 03:27:56 PM: Remember.. Tune your gun/ammo for the best possible outcome from the bench. Then, practice with it offhand, sitting, kneeling, prone, leaning the gun/forward hand on a tree branch/trunk. That is the true test of a shooter and his rifle. I've seen so many people miss long shots on Muley's over the years that were makeable shots if they'd have just taken time to get a little rest/advantage.

-Steve
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: 44 Flattop on April 26, 2011, 07:05:50 PM: I personally feel target shooting is WAY underrated by hunters. You learn much about your gun, your load and yourself when you are trying to shoot li'l tiny groups. If a hunter can get to the point where he can shoot a 1.5" group, a 1" group or even a 1/2" group at 100 he effectively works out any possible kinks in RIFLE performance. What is left is now an excuseless hunter/shooter. :)

There are no drawbacks being able to shoot small groups. Too many hunters have never heard an old time rule of thumb. 1 shot for every yard you plan to shoot over, at game. For instance, if you plan to shoot a deer at 150 yards, that dictates 150 practice rounds fired. Or at 500 yards you should be planning on shooting 500 rounds. If hunters followed that rule today there would be much less wounded game.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: Bofire on April 26, 2011, 07:35:05 PM: :) I think you are probably shooting as well or better than most the "bug hole" internet shooters. I am telling you!! :chuckle: there are some bad azz groups shot with a keyboard!
Carl
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: dscubame on April 26, 2011, 07:36:06 PM: Quote from: Bofire on April 26, 2011, 07:35:05 PM
:) I think you are probably shooting as well or better than most the "bug hole" internet shooters. I am telling you!! :chuckle: there are some bad azz groups shot with a keyboard!
Carl

LOL :chuckle:
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: Hilltop123 on April 26, 2011, 07:38:38 PM: "Cold bore shot" nuff said
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on April 26, 2011, 10:41:37 PM: Quote from: Hilltop123 on April 26, 2011, 07:38:38 PM
"Cold bore shot" nuff said

YES! Know where your cold bore shot hits and you'll only need one shot to make a humane kill.

-Steve
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: Bob33 on April 26, 2011, 10:51:54 PM: Quote from: dscubame on April 26, 2011, 07:36:06 PM
Quote from: Bofire on April 26, 2011, 07:35:05 PM
:) I think you are probably shooting as well or better than most the "bug hole" internet shooters. I am telling you!! :chuckle: there are some bad azz groups shot with a keyboard!
Carl

LOL :chuckle:
I think quite a few internet shooters must stop at one shot when measuring group size...

Really, it's just a small part of success. How well you can find and stalk game, and shoot under field conditions are so much more important.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: sakoshooter on April 27, 2011, 12:15:39 PM: Bob, you're absolutely right about hunting.
As for group size: I am very picky. And never satsified. That's not to say "I" can shoot that good, LOL. Especially since my eyes ain't what they used to be. It's as much of a hobby as it is a test to find the ultimate accurate hunting load.
Out of all the different bullets I've loaded and shot threw all the different rifles over 30+ yrs of reloading, I've never really seen a 'bad' load. Some are better than others but most would have been accurate enough for most hunting situations.
I do use an adjustable front rest w/leather sand filled rear bag and bed my rifle into it as best as possible at the range on a solid bench. All my loads are shot this way and all info recorded.
Once a load is picked for the upcoming season, I then start practicing off my shooting sticks while kneeling and sitting. Mostly at 200yds at the gongs at Paul Bunyan Sportsmans club in Puyallup. With practice, I can hit the gongs most of the time sitting or kneeling. With my shooting sticks, I can hit them every time and that's important for me and why I almost always use my shooting sticks in the woods.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: GregMcFadden on April 27, 2011, 12:40:47 PM: Quote
"Cold bore shot" nuff said

Just make sure you do everything the same every time. I have a particular rifle, that shoots low by 3/4" when cold bore shot when it has had at least three rounds fired through it after cleaning, but shoots 1.5 inches right after a good cleaning. (all at 100 yards)
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: demontang on April 27, 2011, 08:52:30 PM: If im working a load Ill use a good rest and sandbags. My mossberg .243 is shooting .25" groups with 55gr noslers and .50" with 95gr noslers. When I go to sticks and sitting your looking at 1" on average with the same loads. With all my guns I try to shoot with the sticks out to 400yds or more and hit a 8-10" gong. and when I cant hit it every time I back off to where I can and call that my hunting max range.
Title: Re: Accurracy Question....
Post by: Hornseeker on April 29, 2011, 08:19:38 PM: Lots of great points... thank you.

As for the hunting and stalking and such... this gun is for my daughter and she'll be taught all of that through the years. As for me, I've only taken a "few" long shots over the years...most of my game in the last decade has fallen inside 100 yards... and I think 1 1/2 inch groups will do just fine on an elk/deer/lope at 10 yards!!!

But...the illusive MOA and smaller can still drive a guy mad!!!! :chuckle: