Post by: jbeaumont21 on May 06, 2011, 11:34:29 AM
Thanks!
Post by: dawei on May 06, 2011, 11:43:06 AM
Post by: jackelope on May 06, 2011, 11:44:12 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 06, 2011, 04:29:24 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 06, 2011, 04:31:59 PM
The main reason Easterns on the west side are slower taking off, is simply a numbers game. A couple thousand Merriam's and Rio's were either brought in from other states or trapped in state from production and moved starting new flocks in areas that did not have birds, or supplementing areas that did from the mid 80's till around 2002.
On the other hand only about 700-800 Easterns were released from 1987 up to and including 2000. Capitol Forest alone has 90,000 acres let alone the vast expanses of Lewis, Cowlitz, Mason, Grays Harbor, Pacific, Wakiakum and the remainder of Thurston just to mention a few. All things considered, they are doing quite well.
Because of their nature they are hard to get a handle on, as they unlike Merriam's and Rio's spend all their time within the wood line and in close proximity to the edges, and not in the open or semi open like the opther subspecies. Their scientific name...Meleagris gallopavo silvestris, pretty well sums it up, as silvestris means forest.
As far as not seeing birds on original sites....easy answer. The habitat changes relatively quick in western Washington due to our climate. Areas where I routinely take Easterns out of are usually good for just a few short years and then they for the most part absent of sign. However, they were not far away. They just relocated into areas that mimicked where they had been for a few years previous...age of reprod., older timber borders etc. Problem was you had a 360 degree challenge to find them again...lol.
When all the Easterns were released from the mid 80's on, their genetic viability was ensured as much as possible with mixing of existing releases as well as future ones. An example would be the mixing of say Iowa birds prior to release with gobblers and hens from different counties as one example. Mixing of hens was also done so family groups were not entirely kept in tact.
In addition, new stocks in successive years were planted on top of existing bird to add to the gene pool...i.e. Missouri birds released in areas of Pennsylvania birds, Iowa birds on top of both Missouri and Pa. bird...and so forth over the years.
"So in summary, our Easterns are doing just fine. The expansion of small groups, which by the way is the nature of the subspecies, will continue to add genetic strength overall. If you look in this year's regulations at the Estimated Spring Turkey Harvest, it will illustrate my point. The last releases were made in 2000 I believe. The harvest in area P50 Southwest slowly climbed from 26 in 1996 then up in the 40's and 50's until 2006 when it was 77. The 2009 harvest was 65, the second highest total in the 14 year span, and nine years after the last releases."
Here is the 2010 harvest figures just out.....as you can see, 2010 is now the highest recorded total harvest in 15 years of estimated harvest for P50 Southwest, surpassing 2006 the previous high at 77.
P50 Southwest 89
There are far more Easterns out there than most would believe.
Post by: bobcat on May 06, 2011, 04:35:52 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 06, 2011, 05:15:47 PM
"I agree completely. Should have planted a whole lot more, and should still be planting. Lots of areas in western Washington to fill in. But understand two things were working against it.
First....WDFW reorganization in 1999 essentially killed the turkey introduction program. Meaning the idiots in Wildlife Management now had control. Those are the same folks as an example that brought you the wonderful new innovative permit system we now have. Enough said....
Second...The NWTF parent organization in Edgefield, South Carolina, positioned themselves as middle man brokers so to speak during the mid 90's. What these meant was that a price was put on the cost of trapping the different subspecies of turkeys. Merriam's and Rio's were $100 a bird with shipping cost on top of that, and Easterns were $500 a bird, also without shipping. The high cost of Easterns was because of smaller flock size and their inherent nature makes them much more difficult to trap.
Washington chapters had to in essence borrow the money and pay it back. The NWTF even charged administrative fees (telephone calls etc) on top of that and interest on the money. Truth be know....it's all about the money.
Really sad thing is before the NWTF set themselves up as a broker, states readily traded birds for other species or for the most part sent birds free of charge, with the exception of shipping costs. An example of state wildlife agencies helping each other.
We could have had many more Easterns during the mid to late 90's if those greedy car salesmen at the NWTF had stayed the hell out of the the Washington State turkey business. You can take that to the bank!"
Post by: jbeaumont21 on May 06, 2011, 06:06:13 PM
Post by: bucklucky on May 06, 2011, 06:37:04 PM
Post by: smash on May 06, 2011, 06:40:22 PM
Post by: Phantom Gobbler on May 06, 2011, 11:10:57 PM
Post by: jbeaumont21 on May 06, 2011, 11:14:55 PM
I think we need to somehow, someway develop the means and funds to increase the number of Easterns in Western Washington. The interest is there to develop sustainable numbers of birds with a goal of harvesting between 250 and 500 birds annually. WA Cent and others can lead the charge! :twocents:
Count me in! I am willing to donate money, time or resources to the cause. I nominate Wacenturion to show us the way
Post by: bobcat on May 07, 2011, 08:26:58 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 07, 2011, 08:51:32 AM
Seems like a good idea but I have to wonder what affect, if any, higher turkey numbers would have on native species like grouse. I wonder if this has ever been studied?
Quote
Are Turkeys Impacting Ruffed Grouse?
This is one of the most frequently asked questions during my tenure as a regional biologist. For those of us who have sought both of these game birds, the answer appears quite easy. Wild turkeys prefer habitats that are more mature and open than the dense forest cover essential to ruffed grouse. As we have often relayed, data clearly show that young-forest habitat has declined across much of the range of ruffed grouse while increases are occurring in mature forest habitat. But there may be more to it than that. Turkeys, for instance, are known to eat a variety of foods including snakes and frogs. Could they eat a grouse chick? Sure, but how often are they available? Young grouse can fly proficiently by the time they are three weeks old. Often when threatened, a brood will flush in all directions and then find cover and hide. This makes them almost impossible for any predator, especially a turkey with its poor sense of smell, to locate.
It is doubtful that these species compete with each other for breeding sites. Drumming male grouse are quite sedentary, occupying a log surrounded by dense cover, while gobblers set up strutting zones in open areas and travel quite frequently. Nesting sites for each species are not very specific with both species using middle-aged or mature stands for nesting. Hens of both species are quite secretive when nesting and try to bring as little attention as possible to the nest site.
A recently completed study by Dr. Bill Palmer, a Florida game bird researcher, also gives us insight into the question of turkeys eating young birds or destroying nests. Dr. Palmer followed the fate of more than 400 quail nests using micro-video cameras and radio-tagged hens to monitor broods. The study area had very high turkey populations of 30 to 60 turkeys per square mile. Not once during the study did the researchers record a turkey destroying a quail nest or record a turkey eating or killing a chick.
Both grouse and turkeys are primarily generalists when it comes to feed, having few limitations throughout most of the year. Winter is probably the most stressful period for both species, with the turkey feeding mostly on acorns and waste grains while ruffed grouse feed on the dormant buds of trees and shrubs. The latter are usually not available to the turkey due to the bird’s large body mass, which would require very stout limbs for support. Infrequent observations have been reported, however, of turkeys “budding” just like their grouse cousins.
In some areas of the southern portion of the range of the ruffed grouse, though, bud-producing trees and shrubs are uncommon. This forces the grouse to forage on the ground in direct competition with other ground-feeders, including turkeys, for a limited food supply. Nevertheless, this type of competition would be expected to be very localized and should not affect regional ruffed grouse populations.
Dave Neu, a regional biologist for the National Wild Turkey Federation, states “Ruffed grouse and wild turkey are two species that have evolved together for thousands of years and their habitats slightly overlap. There is no documented evidence that either species directly impacts populations of the other.”
From a scientific basis, there is little evidence that the wild turkey is directly leading to declines in ruffed grouse populations. Any impact caused to ruffed grouse populations by turkeys is insignificant compared to the declines in young-forest habitats and the long line of tru predators across the range of the ruffed grouse.
(Gary Zimmer is a regional forest wildlife biologist for the Ruffed Grouse Society.)
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 07, 2011, 08:59:09 AM
Quote
Since wild turkeys are not native to Washington, questions arise about the impact that wild turkeys might have on native wildlife and plants. There have been many wild turkey studies completed across the United States (in both native and introduced range), and none of these studies have indicated that wild turkeys have negative population-level impacts on plants, animals, or other birds.
Post by: bobcat on May 07, 2011, 09:05:02 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on May 07, 2011, 09:14:06 AM
Been attacked by a grouse defending its nest/hatchling though, pretty funny how brave they can be :chuckle:
I still think the Racoons have quite an impact on nests though, in one of my areas I have seen 5 so far this year, not family groups either but lone 'coons, 2 of them were just walking down the same road along the creek. :twocents:
P.S. I heard a lone gobble from the opposite side, but spooked him when I tried to cut back towards tree-line though clear-cut along firebreak road in bottom :bash:
no sign of hens......
Post by: Wacenturion on May 07, 2011, 09:23:48 AM
Or according to WDFW, ..QuoteSince wild turkeys are not native to Washington, questions arise about the impact that wild turkeys might have on native wildlife and plants. There have been many wild turkey studies completed across the United States (in both native and introduced range), and none of these studies have indicated that wild turkeys have negative population-level impacts on plants, animals, or other birds.
Pretty well sums it up. The tree hugger types just keep bringing this and other issues up in a "sky is falling" assumption when discussing turkeys. The American Wild Turkey has probably been studied almost as much as whitetail deer in this country, and there is nothing in the literature to suggest they pose a problem to native wildlife. In fact there are many instances of actually being beneficial to other species in some respects.
Typical tree hugger argument....."I think, therefore prove me wrong". How about "you think....you prove it to us....the burden is on you. Would solve a whole lots of problems and save valuable time across the board resource wise.
By the way did any of you see on the news where groups are now organizing to hire legal representation for rocks, trees, streams? What do these people crawl out from under. :bash:
Post by: bobcat on May 07, 2011, 09:31:29 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 07, 2011, 10:04:29 AM
Well it's good to know they've done the studies. But for now with the budget situation I sure don't see the DFW being able to do anything to increase turkey numbers on the westside. And if you think about it, with these "tree hugger types" being so numerous around here, I'd guess getting approval for something like this would not be easy. Can you imagine what these people will say about something like this? You can bet they will look at it as spending money just so the state can provide more targets for hunters.
Exactly..............however even if WDFW was flush, it still would not register as something they would want to do as long as the current bunch of pseudo biologists run Wildlife Management. They are in my opinion the worst thing that happened to WDFW in the past 30 years....not excluding the previous director which was the biggest single mistake. :twocents:
Post by: huntlakewood on May 07, 2011, 10:17:09 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on May 07, 2011, 10:28:16 AM
Post by: mtnseth on May 07, 2011, 04:35:03 PM
The first year I hunted easterns I never saw a bird in the spring. The second year I saw a bunch of hens but never heard a gobble or saw a tom. In 2009, I shot a tom in this unit on opening morning. Last year I had my finger on the trigger, but the bird wouldn't come out in the open.
This season, I helped my buddy finish out the slam after 15 years of trying by putting him on a new flock of easterns I discovered early in the spring. So far this year, I've had two close calls, but things just didn't pan out. (Trying to ambush henned up birds).
Don't be discouraged. Get out earlier, walk farther, and eventually you'll at least improve your odds of seeing one.
Post by: Turkeyman on May 08, 2011, 02:39:21 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on May 08, 2011, 03:48:44 PM
Post by: Turkeyman on May 08, 2011, 05:40:46 PM
Post by: NaturalSelection on May 08, 2011, 06:06:45 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 08, 2011, 06:53:42 PM
-Hunting around the skookumchuck i would be surprised if anybody even sees a turkey turd let alone a turkey! There not around like they use too be!
Oh they are there. As Turkeyman pointed out....they move every few years....sometimes not too far, sometimes farther and there are birds that never get hunted. You just have to be persistent and relocate them or find new bunches. That's what makes them so much fun. :chuckle:
Post by: Turkeyman on May 08, 2011, 07:01:31 PM
Post by: kerrdog on May 08, 2011, 08:31:26 PM
Post by: KNOXY on May 10, 2011, 12:44:37 PM
Post by: KNOXY on May 10, 2011, 12:47:55 PM
Post by: Gumby98366 on May 10, 2011, 01:16:55 PM
I've done the east side for the last 4 years, I'm ready for a new local challenge!
Post by: Elkpiss on May 12, 2011, 01:08:18 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on May 12, 2011, 01:23:32 PM
Post by: KNOXY on May 12, 2011, 10:38:22 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on May 13, 2011, 09:42:54 AM
Hey skookhnter can you make sure you change the batteries and pull my SD card Im sure it's full. :chuckle::chuckle:
Post by: MtnMuley on May 13, 2011, 11:32:28 AM
Yep I know that spot from the size of trees and the opening! Thanks Knoxy for the Help scouting! :chuckle:
............seems to me the same thing was the case this year with a guy that shot a big buck.......... ;) :chuckle:
Post by: SkookumHntr on May 13, 2011, 12:17:17 PM
-That pic did get examined pretty good on here huh! :chuckle: No more Backrounds in my field pics after that!! ;)Yep I know that spot from the size of trees and the opening! Thanks Knoxy for the Help scouting! :chuckle:
............seems to me the same thing was the case this year with a guy that shot a big buck.......... ;) :chuckle:
Post by: MtnMuley on May 13, 2011, 12:20:43 PM
-That pic did get examined pretty good on here huh! :chuckle: No more Backrounds in my field pics after that!! ;)Yep I know that spot from the size of trees and the opening! Thanks Knoxy for the Help scouting! :chuckle:
............seems to me the same thing was the case this year with a guy that shot a big buck.......... ;) :chuckle:
That's alright, cause we both know that was the only big guy on that mountain, and it will take 10 years before we ever see one out of there again! ;)
Post by: SkookumHntr on May 13, 2011, 12:24:59 PM