Post by: packmule on May 14, 2011, 07:40:48 PM
1. What proportion of gobbler's in the NE do you think have the snow white tips?
2. Do you think the lack of snow white tips in areas I've hunted is indicative of not having full-blooded Merriam's, or just a range of colors within the sub-species?
Post by: turkeydancer on May 15, 2011, 06:34:15 AM
Per a wildlife biologist friend, a turkeys coloration does change during differnt parts of the year based on his diet at that time. But since the state started releasing Rios in some area like Douglas Falls then switched to Merriams in the NE, and the fact that they do not stop at some artificial and arbitrary "line in the sand", we know that cross-breeding does occur ... however it is most likely the result of that birds particular diet. He further stated that the only way to truly tell if a turkey is a product of cross breeding is an expensive genetics test. This is why the state basically defines the subspecies by county of harvest versus coloration. So if you harvest a thunder chicken in the NE, it's a Merriam.
Post by: BPturkeys on May 15, 2011, 08:44:53 AM
Not to really change the subject to much, but I think this use of location to identify a bird calls into question this "Washington Slam" that I hear about all the time. It kind of goes like this..."Well I shot my Merriams up around Hunters then I had to travel clear down to Seven Bays to harvest the Rio, now all I need to do is head back home to Napavine for the Eastern...trouble is, now Iam home, I can't tell the birds apart"...yup, that's a Slam...yeah, right :P :P :)
Post by: Wacenturion on May 15, 2011, 10:08:08 AM
I can only agree with what Tdancer's friend said. It is really quite silly to declare a turkey a certain sub-species based upon the location that it was living. Washington has planted three subspecies throughout state and they crossbred in almost all locations. Rio/Merriam crossbreed will have a variety of colorings and it is this coloring variations that are leading to the misunderstanding of what the actual subspecies of your harvested bird is. Very few locations in the West that have been transplanting birds have any real pure blood birds within their population.
Not to really change the subject to much, but I think this use of location to identify a bird calls into question this "Washington Slam" that I hear about all the time. It kind of goes like this..."Well I shot my Merriams up around Hunters then I had to travel clear down to Seven Bays to harvest the Rio, now all I need to do is head back home to Napavine for the Eastern...trouble is, now Iam home, I can't tell the birds apart"...yup, that's a Slam...yeah, right :P :P :)
You sure know how to rain on someone's parade don't ya. Your statement.....
"Washington has planted three subspecies throughout state and they crossbred in almost all locations."
is grossly inaccurate. You're going to tell me Merriams or Rio's have invaded Pacific, Thurston or Mason county? Yeah there is overlap no doubt in the NE, and probably overlap to a lesser extent in the SE considering Idaho planted Merriams in the Lewiston area vs Rio's in Asotin, Garfield, Columbia and Walla Walla counties in Washington. Believe Oregon south of the line was Rio's since everything Oregon was Rio's pretty much.
You also said.
"Very few locations in the West that have been transplanting birds have any real pure blood birds within their population."
That too is baloney.
If you think the Washington Slam is a joke, then fine you're welcome to your opinion. However it sounds more like Utah turkey envy to me.
"trouble is, now Iam home, I can't tell the birds apart"...yup, that's a Slam...yeah, right"
Maybe you can't tell them apart....but some of us can.
Save you negativity for your Utah forums...it's not needed here. :twocents:
Post by: BPturkeys on May 15, 2011, 01:11:15 PM
Post by: oldleclercrd on May 15, 2011, 03:30:20 PM
Post by: packmule on May 15, 2011, 07:28:30 PM
:dunno:
Per a wildlife biologist friend, a turkeys coloration does change during differnt parts of the year based on his diet at that time. But since the state started releasing Rios in some area like Douglas Falls then switched to Merriams in the NE, and the fact that they do not stop at some artificial and arbitrary "line in the sand", we know that cross-breeding does occur ... however it is most likely the result of that birds particular diet. He further stated that the only way to truly tell if a turkey is a product of cross breeding is an expensive genetics test. This is why the state basically defines the subspecies by county of harvest versus coloration. So if you harvest a thunder chicken in the NE, it's a Merriam.
Turkeydancer,
The diet thing makes sense, I hadn't thought about that one. Thanks for the information. . .does anyone know what diet items or nutrients contribute to the white vs dark cream color in Merriams?
My Merriams gobbler from friday the 13th. Its pretty white!
Definitely a beautiful white gobbler!
Post by: oldleclercrd on May 16, 2011, 06:38:02 PM
Post by: goducks on May 16, 2011, 07:38:23 PM
Post by: yelp on May 16, 2011, 09:58:05 PM
Yeah you can buy Rios online. I wonder if anyone on this site has raised them and let em go. Would they make it up north? I thought they were more desert birds.
:bdid: THis is an old topic..game farm stock sucks! Become problem birds not wild strain. Also not tested for diseases.
Post by: yelp on May 16, 2011, 10:15:48 PM
Post by: BPturkeys on May 17, 2011, 07:03:25 AM
Post by: packmule on May 17, 2011, 11:23:15 AM
If you read turkey studies there are different color phases within all subspecies of wild turkeys. The difference with Merriams and Rios isn't necessarily the color it is the large white band on the back of the turkey..it is thicker/wider than Rio grande.
Yelp,
Good information. Do you have any citations of studies or books that provide this information. I have a lot of turkey hunting books that generalize color patterns of the different species. I'd be interested to know other sources you refer to, to further research this issue. Also, to be clear, I like all of our turkeys regardless of their color or genetic status. I'm just interested in getting more information about the color patterns.
In terms of turkey hunting in our state, I have a close friend in northern Missouri who is an avid turkey hunter and he would kill to have the turkey hunting opportunities we are enjoying here right now. Their population has really dropped during the past couple of seasons and we have ALOT of public land to chase 3 species of wild turkeys.