Post by: marty on June 08, 2011, 09:08:08 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 08, 2011, 09:17:40 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 08, 2011, 09:21:41 PM
Post by: marty on June 08, 2011, 09:23:55 PM
Post by: marty on June 08, 2011, 09:26:36 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 08, 2011, 09:30:12 PM
Post by: deadyote on June 08, 2011, 09:32:39 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 08, 2011, 09:39:00 PM
I shot my bull at 167 yards last year and the bullet was flat on the back side if the hide. I am still going to try the Barnes because everyone I have talked to has raved about them. It's hard to change when I am shooting 4" groups at 200 yards with the Hornady SST's.
At that far any bullets should expand well. It's the close range shots that they just punch right threw because of the speed of the bullet at close range. When they are out there say 150 yards the bullet slows down and it gives them a chance to expand better.
Post by: marty on June 08, 2011, 09:47:20 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 08, 2011, 09:54:07 PM
Post by: marty on June 08, 2011, 10:06:00 PM
Post by: Blsum on June 08, 2011, 11:51:55 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi913.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac337%2Fsumjb2%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F0131001521_0001-1.jpg&hash=14967b0216d8d7f68162ba77dd7e7b98454756a6)
As you can see there wasn't really all that much left of the bullet when I recovered it.
Before we could use the copper bullets I use to shoot the Dead center bullets. However the one bull I shot with them went a little farther then i would of liked. The same test I did with the sst's came up with this result in the dead centers.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi913.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac337%2Fsumjb2%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F0411001835b.jpg&hash=2a9c01c6c19c4adf9d59a290438ffe2442768f2f)
But like carp said. The Barnes TMZ bullets are the bomb. Almost as accurate as the sst's but with deadly performance. The two deer that we got this last year dropped in there tracks. Both bullets where recovered and both looked almost the same as the bullet that I tested.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi913.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac337%2Fsumjb2%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F0411001835_0001.jpg&hash=1920423d84114de5d5065a3cea9f1f2fa6d6c6d0)
I absolutely love these bullets. You may pay a little more for them but it is all worth it.
Just for S's & G's here are the two deer we got with the Barnes bullets.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi913.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac337%2Fsumjb2%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F1127101102b.jpg&hash=bb09ce0cab192f9eeb481b876cefade4a7059ecc)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi913.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac337%2Fsumjb2%2FDSCN1309.jpg&hash=2e36ff0e2fb43a10addd9715e3132571cff633eb)
Post by: MHWASH on June 09, 2011, 05:45:45 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 09, 2011, 07:15:26 AM
Not having any luck with SST bullets out of my muzzleloader expanding on deer. They have been the most accurate bullet i have shot but cant take the close calls on finding my animals. Anybody have suggestions for a polymer tipped bullet that is reliable?
What you are discussing is not really that uncommon for most any tipped bullet shot at ML speeds. You can read this same scenario on just about any forum. It just happens, not always for sure, but enough that it raises some questions.
I use to shoot the SST or SW quite a bit - they are one of the most accurate bullet I have ever shot, but results were not the best for me.
I have always had a problem with the durability of the lead copper bullets at ML speeds. So I began torching testing the here locally. Even when hunting elk in the old days with a centerfire 300 Win Mag – I found that I could shoot the lead out of the copper. I use to shoot Hornady lead copper at elk – I would find the copper just inside the hide and the traveled on… the animal was dead – he just did not know it for awhile.
As a result I started testing bullets in a home devised torture test, and I admit it is was devised to destroy bullets…
This is the result of shooting 250 SST into a wet clay soil bank… The copper was stripped from the lead…
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FFTX250Label.jpg&hash=0ef6034b222c1ccc56c9b5be210c7104f8f59cee)
Same results for the XTP series…
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGD-XTPComp.jpg&hash=aa772a16e80f9d0c7b3a17c3388379a10afa4883)
The only regular priced production bullet that I have tested that seemed to stand the test were Speer Gold Dot bullets now called Deep Curl’s…
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGoldDotPerformance.jpg&hash=1bca29cd7e1d4979939785c948d5e1314a63ccff)
Of course, the premium bullets like Barnes, Nosler Partitions, and the new Lehigh’s/Bloodlines can not strip…
I should also mention, I am not a fan of tipped bullets anyway at ML speeds and velocities.
I copied this from another one of my posts…
They look good, I have read about them before. Might have to look into them. I like the poly tipped bullets better then the hollow points. But might give them a shot.
Again this is really just one guys opinion... but I have shot a lot of different bullets, and coming from being a nut about bullet BC during my centerfire days. It really did not take me long to figure out that at muzzleloader velocities and muzzleloader range (my self imposed max is 200 yards with a scope) BC is not all that critical. It is what the bullet does when it gets there... Terminal Performance, well and accuracy of course.
For myself... I must admit most of my shots I would be 60 yards with some so close you could measure them in feet. But even though my average harvest is 60 yards - I still load for 200 - just in case! you just never KNOW!!! Because of that when I was using the SST/SW with poly tips - there were a few occasions that I shot an animal at close range and ended shooting a nice 45 cal hole – right through the animal. The bullet got in and out of the animal so fast that it had no time to expand.
Thinking about this, I thought about the 460 grain Bull Shop conicals that I shoot during our ML season, why do the work so well over all the ranges? I decided it was the meplat of bullet – that is what caused it to work so well… From there, I moved back to the HP to get the same effect – large meplat in the body creating one heck of Hydrostatic Shock in the organs…
What I loose in a lower BC – I more than make up in effect of Terminal Performance…
On the other hand if I were shooting a lot at 200 yards and beyond – yep! I want a pointy bullet…
Post by: SkookumHntr on June 09, 2011, 08:24:04 AM
For me personally I love the accuracy that I can get out of the Hornady sst bullets. However during some milk jug testing at 100 yards, I found that the recovered bullets didn't preform all that well.-Im Going with the Barnes for the same reason! Love the testing you guys do on those Bullets :tup:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi913.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac337%2Fsumjb2%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F0131001521_0001-1.jpg&hash=14967b0216d8d7f68162ba77dd7e7b98454756a6)
As you can see there wasn't really all that much left of the bullet when I recovered it.
Before we could use the copper bullets I use to shoot the Dead center bullets. However the one bull I shot with them went a little farther then i would of liked. The same test I did with the sst's came up with this result in the dead centers.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi913.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac337%2Fsumjb2%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F0411001835b.jpg&hash=2a9c01c6c19c4adf9d59a290438ffe2442768f2f)
But like carp said. The Barnes TMZ bullets are the bomb. Almost as accurate as the sst's but with deadly performance. The two deer that we got this last year dropped in there tracks. Both bullets where recovered and both looked almost the same as the bullet that I tested.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi913.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac337%2Fsumjb2%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F0411001835_0001.jpg&hash=1920423d84114de5d5065a3cea9f1f2fa6d6c6d0)
I absolutely love these bullets. You may pay a little more for them but it is all worth it.
Just for S's & G's here are the two deer we got with the Barnes bullets.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi913.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac337%2Fsumjb2%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F1127101102b.jpg&hash=bb09ce0cab192f9eeb481b876cefade4a7059ecc)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi913.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac337%2Fsumjb2%2FDSCN1309.jpg&hash=2e36ff0e2fb43a10addd9715e3132571cff633eb)
Post by: Rick on June 09, 2011, 08:47:55 AM
At that far any bullets should expand well. It's the close range shots that they just punch right threw because of the speed of the bullet at close range. When they are out there say 150 yards the bullet slows down and it gives them a chance to expand better.
Thats actually the opposite of what happens.As a general rule,higher velocity means more expansion. The further away the amimal is,the less the bullet will expand.
Post by: marty on June 09, 2011, 09:48:42 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 09, 2011, 11:26:29 AM
At that far any bullets should expand well. It's the close range shots that they just punch right threw because of the speed of the bullet at close range. When they are out there say 150 yards the bullet slows down and it gives them a chance to expand better.[/quote]
I would like to agree with this statement... When the bullets are traveling to fast they get in and out of a thin skinned - thin body of a deer before they get a chance to really perform... on the other hand in the longer ranges at a reduced velocity and sufficient energt they have more time to expand correctly.
Most often 'penciling' occurs at close ranges with hot load and a pointy type bullet. On the other the opposite is true of most HP's - velocity doesn't matter as much as the nose of the bullet reacts to the fluid it encounters on its trip through the animal..
Post by: Rick on June 09, 2011, 01:14:42 PM
[Quote from: carpsniperg2 on Yesterday at 09:39:00 PM]
At that far any bullets should expand well. It's the close range shots that they just punch right threw because of the speed of the bullet at close range. When they are out there say 150 yards the bullet slows down and it gives them a chance to expand better.
I would like to agree with this statement... When the bullets are traveling to fast they get in and out of a thin skinned - thin body of a deer before they get a chance to really perform... on the other hand in the longer ranges at a reduced velocity and sufficient energt they have more time to expand correctly.
Most often 'penciling' occurs at close ranges with hot load and a pointy type bullet. On the other the opposite is true of most HP's - velocity doesn't matter as much as the nose of the bullet reacts to the fluid it encounters on its trip through the animal..
[/quote]
I'll disagree with your statement as well. Like I said,as a general rule,velocity promotes expansion. The faster you drive a bullet designed to expand,the faster the bullet will expand on impact.
Thats exactly why controlled expansion bullets like the Barnes X and Nosler Partition were created.
Post by: Sabotloader on June 09, 2011, 04:26:12 PM
[Quote from: carpsniperg2 on Yesterday at 09:39:00 PM]
At that far any bullets should expand well. It's the close range shots that they just punch right threw because of the speed of the bullet at close range. When they are out there say 150 yards the bullet slows down and it gives them a chance to expand better.
I would like to agree with this statement... When the bullets are traveling to fast they get in and out of a thin skinned - thin body of a deer before they get a chance to really perform... on the other hand in the longer ranges at a reduced velocity and sufficient energt they have more time to expand correctly.
Most often 'penciling' occurs at close ranges with hot load and a pointy type bullet. On the other the opposite is true of most HP's - velocity doesn't matter as much as the nose of the bullet reacts to the fluid it encounters on its trip through the animal..
I'll disagree with your statement as well. Like I said,as a general rule,velocity promotes expansion. The faster you drive a bullet designed to expand,the faster the bullet will expand on impact.
Thats exactly why controlled expansion bullets like the Barnes X and Nosler Partition were created.
[/quote]
Not to be hard headed on my part but I personally believe your point is wrong… velocity is certainly a factor, but more important is the frontal that the bullet hits the animal with and then the hardness of the nose lead or the nose and the final thing is the medium that is going to cause the expansion.
The Nosler Partition will expand at a wider range of velocities than any other premium bullet. It can and will expand at lower velocities as well as it does at the high velocities… Nosler can do that because it will only expand so much no matter what.
Many of the spire point bullets will not react this way as they are to streamlined and do not offer much of frontal contact area… on the other hand when they slow down they will expand better in a shorter distance as long as they have enough energy determined by velocity to expand. Increasing the meplat of the bullet will always create quicker expansion than does a smaller meplat.
A really good example and I can not find a pictures of it right now… I have pictures if a pointy bullet going through a 2” 2x12 at 25 yards… it cuts a really neat hole – really hard to see through it as it closes back up – really does not do that much damage to the plank at all, but at a 100 yard that same bullet starts with a nice hole but tears the heck out of the back of the board. It has slowed down enough to start expansion inside the 2x12 and burst from the back of the board. I wish I could find those pictures…
This has been verified by a lot of other folks also…
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 09, 2011, 04:53:58 PM
Post by: Rick on June 09, 2011, 05:01:30 PM
Me and sabot are on the same page here. I can promise you what we are saying is true.
You two are as goofy as the guy that told me a 7mm Remington magnum was no good for deer. He said the bullet went through the deer so fast it didn't have time to expand. :chuckle:
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 09, 2011, 05:06:20 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 09, 2011, 06:29:48 PM
Me and sabot are on the same page here. I can promise you what we are saying is true.
You two are as goofy as the guy that told me a 7mm Remington magnum was no good for deer. He said the bullet went through the deer so fast it didn't have time to expand. :chuckle:
Depending on the bullet and the range that could be true... same reason I do not shoot deer with my 300 Win Mag... The bullets I shoot in that gun for elk would not work very well at close range on a whitetail - unless I shoot a big bone causing loss of velocity and enrgy transfer. Example the Sierra .308-200 Spire Point Boat tail that I use is traveling at 3000 fps with 3996 FPE and at close range would be in and out of a thin skinned - narrowed bodied whitetail so fast the bullet would never even know it passed through the animal. Although shooting the length of the body would solve the problem, probably.
Now shoot that bullet into a thick skinned elk, especially a muddy bull in rut even at closer ranges and - that would be a different story. And as the range increases more energy will be transferred in the animal.
Post by: Dirty Mike on June 16, 2011, 06:00:41 AM
Post by: jstone on June 16, 2011, 06:08:38 AM
Post by: JColony on June 16, 2011, 06:54:29 AM
Post by: WSU on June 16, 2011, 08:42:05 AM
Me and sabot are on the same page here. I can promise you what we are saying is true.
You two are as goofy as the guy that told me a 7mm Remington magnum was no good for deer. He said the bullet went through the deer so fast it didn't have time to expand. :chuckle:
Depending on the bullet and the range that could be true... same reason I do not shoot deer with my 300 Win Mag... The bullets I shoot in that gun for elk would not work very well at close range on a whitetail - unless I shoot a big bone causing loss of velocity and enrgy transfer. Example the Sierra .308-200 Spire Point Boat tail that I use is traveling at 3000 fps with 3996 FPE and at close range would be in and out of a thin skinned - narrowed bodied whitetail so fast the bullet would never even know it passed through the animal. Although shooting the length of the body would solve the problem, probably.
Now shoot that bullet into a thick skinned elk, especially a muddy bull in rut even at closer ranges and - that would be a different story. And as the range increases more energy will be transferred in the animal.
I can tell you for a fact that about 5 whitetails disagree. The 300 win absolutely flattens them at ranges from 30 yards to 300 (in my testing). I can also say that a 200 grain sierra expands, as that is the bullet I shoot. I also tend to agree that bullets tend to over-expand at close range. I've had accubonds basically explode when shot at close range.
It seems to me the key to muzzy bullets would be reliable expansion at low velocity. Even at the muzzle, a muzzy bullet is not going very fast, especially by modern bullet standards.