Post by: jnevs23 on August 21, 2011, 10:20:15 AM
not sure if this has been posted yet
Post by: sebek556 on August 21, 2011, 11:08:01 AM
Post by: Kain on August 21, 2011, 11:20:54 AM
I hope that article is way off about the number of animals being killed and wounded and not recovered though.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on August 21, 2011, 11:25:38 AM
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Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks study on elk wounding lost conducted in the late 1980s. Researchers found that of the bowhunters who hit an elk with an arrow, only about 50 percent were able to recover the animal.:yike:
How about mandatory NBEF training for Archers ?
I think it is more a matter of a nut loose on your riser, if you do not know where you hit an animal, and fail to recover.
But that is just me, high visibility nocks, fletching and wraps, shots under 40 yards, year round practice, only release when I am confident in shot/placement.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on August 21, 2011, 11:30:07 AM
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I personally dont care if someone wants to use a lighted nock. I also think a camera mounted to a bow is totally fine. I think the essence of the no electronic rule is to keep electronics from increasing the effectiveness of a bow. Cameras and lighted nocks dont do that.Agree that I dont care about the lighted nock issue, it is only a matter of time......
I hope that article is way off about the number of animals being killed and wounded and not recovered though.
But really think the only advantage is being able to find your arrow in the dark.
They do look cool in flight though.....
.............................................................
Post by: boneaddict on August 21, 2011, 11:45:46 AM
and then if we stand up to our own on here because they take dumb shots, don't put in the appropriate effort to recover game, etc we are chastised as being too hard on someone or feeding to the anti hunters. WHATEVER! In this case being stonehard better than the average Blok, isn't such a bad thing.
ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED by a glow in the dark arrow. BRILLIANT AGAIN!
Post by: dscubame on August 21, 2011, 11:51:28 AM
Post by: boneaddict on August 21, 2011, 12:47:46 PM
Post by: boneaddict on August 21, 2011, 12:52:23 PM
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Let it be and go shoot another one they won't all Houdini on you.
and I can see why you might consider myself included with a bunch of other people in this state when you look at things with this kind of attitude.
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All the elitest, know it all, opinionated, self centered, holyier than thou, wanna be, judgemental...... folks that is common amongst the hunting community.
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on August 21, 2011, 01:03:08 PM
Post by: 3Under on August 21, 2011, 01:16:12 PM
Post by: boneaddict on August 21, 2011, 01:29:13 PM
Post by: rasbo on August 21, 2011, 01:34:42 PM
Post by: Kain on August 21, 2011, 02:18:41 PM
how bout be happy with what you have,geez in another year the bows will be shooting at muzzle loader speeds..Its really getting ridiculous as to what, or maybe I should say how easy some want hunting with a bow to be..flame away but I'm thinking the whole bow hunting idea was to be a little more demanding on the hunter..To be more in tune with nature....Maybe I'm missing something :dunno:
I agree but even with all the advancements I dont really see a difference in harvest percentages. It is still around 25%. The hard part is still getting close and drawing the bow without being detected. I dont know when it will change because you are right, the technology will eventually close that gap (we might already be there). Same with advancements in muzzleloaders and rifles. It used to be a 200 yard shot with a MZ was only for the REALLY good or the REALLY stupid.
Harvest levels will start to go up and the seasons will have to be shortened and or more restrictive. I dont think that lighted nocks will be the thing to do it but we are getting close. I say allow them during modern firearms season. Those guys that think they HAVE to have them can still use them and the archery season can stay primitive(ish). I would also like to see an exception for lighted pins for night hunting predators but I can already hear all the people screaming about deer poachers pretending they are coyote hunting.
Post by: rasbo on August 21, 2011, 02:37:17 PM
Post by: fair-chase on August 21, 2011, 02:40:06 PM
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Landowners would welcome lighted nocks, Sutton says, and some might restore opportunities to hunt on private land where ranchers and farmers don't want to risk dangerous lost broadheads in their fields.
This is completely laughable. Never have I had a landowner ask if I used lighted nocks or even elude to that being in the top 100 of concerns for hunting their property. I'm sure that when Mr. Sutton thinks of legalized lighted nocks that the sky opens up with angels singing a chorus while deer prance in front of him waiting to be harvested by his magical lights. Sorry boys but that little light is not a miracle worker.
Honestly I could really care less about lighted nocks. This article however is ridiculously opinionated and needed to be balanced out with some real facts and not completely soaked in the emotional banter of this sniveling jack wagon.
Post by: boneaddict on August 21, 2011, 03:21:58 PM
....and Rasbo, I feel the same way.
Post by: buckfvr on August 21, 2011, 04:17:05 PM
Post by: sebek556 on August 21, 2011, 04:23:34 PM
but this guy is a idiot!
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on August 21, 2011, 04:30:25 PM
:stirthepot:
But...
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would be nice to know where the arrow is instead of spending 20-30 minutes digging through the brush to find out if the shot cost me 25-30 bucks or notOne of the main points I suggested on a different thread on this same subject, and was told that was ridiculous, nobody thought about how much their arrow cost !
Post by: sebek556 on August 21, 2011, 04:42:00 PM
Post by: predatorpro on August 21, 2011, 05:13:25 PM
retirement salary plus 3 kids, i think about the cost of the arrows when i am target shooting even, never shoot at the same spot twice if I am within 30 yards. robin hoods look cool but are two damn expensive..i get bummed out when i cant find my casings......a whole arrow! i would look for atleast 30 minutes!
Post by: jnevs23 on August 21, 2011, 11:53:06 PM
His arguement that more land owners would allow hunter access is rediculous as well. I highly doubt the difference between having permission and not having permission is lighted nocks. I highly doubt most landowners even know what lighted nocks are. I would love to see a statistic showing the number of animals severly wounded by a broadhead that was lost while hunting.
If lighted nocks were legal I would likely use them but if turned this article into any english teacher I've had it would be covered in red ink
Post by: dscubame on August 22, 2011, 01:52:06 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on August 23, 2011, 12:53:37 PM
how bout be happy with what you have,geez in another year the bows will be shooting at muzzle loader speeds..Its really getting ridiculous as to what, or maybe I should say how easy some want hunting with a bow to be..flame away but I'm thinking the whole bow hunting idea was to be a little more demanding on the hunter..To be more in tune with nature....Maybe I'm missing something :dunno:I'm guessing you wouldn't be interested in one of those new Electra muzzleloaders... :chuckle: Use a 9V battery now instead of a cap---faster ignition than even modern firearms.
I am of the opinion that there are only maybe a quarter of the people doing archery/muzzy because of the allure of the equipment and a more restrictive/challenging(?) way of hunting. The state created hunting seasons that have more of an appeal for some based on the season than the weapon of choice. If you could pick season and use any weapon in it, would you care to guess what the archer/muzzy/modern breakdowns would be? So if people are really wishing they could be using a rifle but hunting in the other seasons, then I would guess that these people have no problem using bows/muzzies that are approaching the effectiveness of rifles. But then again the rifle world has plenty of people pushing technology farther and farther with its equipment---look at how many now want to shoot 1000 yards and beyond.
Post by: boneaddict on August 23, 2011, 01:00:31 PM
Post by: GoldTip on August 23, 2011, 01:19:17 PM
Post by: ribka on August 23, 2011, 09:05:45 PM
how bout be happy with what you have,geez in another year the bows will be shooting at muzzle loader speeds..Its really getting ridiculous as to what, or maybe I should say how easy some want hunting with a bow to be..flame away but I'm thinking the whole bow hunting idea was to be a little more demanding on the hunter..To be more in tune with nature....Maybe I'm missing something :dunno:
Have to agree but then again I think 60 plus yd shots with a bow are irresponsible. Do not care if your bow shoots 350 fps plus; at over 60 yds too much can go wrong if the projectile you shoot is less than 1126 fps when shooting at an animal.
How is a lighted nock going to help if you ass or gut shoot a deer, elk bear at 80 yds with a bow? Many hunters now can punch paper at 70 yds with training wheels and releases but possess absolutely no tracking, woodsman's skills.
Post by: jbhtiger on August 24, 2011, 07:32:22 AM
Our goal should be to minimize wounding loss. The lighted nock is only marginally related to that.
If it is the goal, then mandating bow education, trying to instill stronger ethics, should be higher priorities. Imagine a list of most effective mechanisms for reducing wounding loss. Most sense is made by implementing the items that would have the largest impact. My hunch is that lighted nocks are low on the list.
Goldtip called this one right, IMO:
The guy interviewed in this article did more to make Bowhunters look bad than he did to help his cause in my opinion. If I were an innocent non-hunting reader of this article I would be more prone to say bowhunting should stop,Hunting is fairly political. Most nonhunters have no problem with it, others do (some hunters have problems with environmentalists, other's don't). Highlighting wounding loss is counterproductive. Giving a megaphone (or assigning a journalist) to every passionate crusader isn't smart. That makes the community look bad. One advantage of having bow organization representation is that it provides a disciplined message machine.
Post by: boneaddict on August 24, 2011, 07:48:37 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 24, 2011, 08:15:01 AM
how bout be happy with what you have,geez in another year the bows will be shooting at muzzle loader speeds..Its really getting ridiculous as to what, or maybe I should say how easy some want hunting with a bow to be..flame away but I'm thinking the whole bow hunting idea was to be a little more demanding on the hunter..To be more in tune with nature....Maybe I'm missing something :dunno:
All due respects, Rasbo, regardless of lighted nocks, cameras, or retractable broadheads, archery still takes a higher level of dedication, quite a bit more equipment, and the ability to get close to an animal for your shot. A modern weapon hunter can realistically shoot half a box of ammo and be ready to kill animals each year. Not so with archery. Even an average archer must spend days conditioning by range shooting before he'll be able to hold an arrow at full draw and accurately shoot. Getting within 40 yards of one of the most wary game animals of North America, possibly the world, adds a whole new dimension to stalking. With all of the advancements in archery over the last three decades, you still have to be in the right place at the right time with the right skills to kill an animal. Lighted nocks wouldn't give an archer any further killing advantage.
I agree with others that this guy's campaign has resulted in a black eye to bowhunters. Even if his information is verifiable and anti-hunters have access to it too, what we don't need is a fellow hunter telling the world that we lose half of our animals. I'm not sure I believe that figure, either. It is not anywhere near my personal experience or that of my fellow hunters.
Post by: Snapshot on August 24, 2011, 09:30:55 AM
Imagine a list of most effective mechanisms for reducing wounding loss.
Some variation of this critter would be at the very top of such a list! If wounding loss is a real reason for concern...employ a tool that works!
Post by: Atroxus on August 24, 2011, 11:34:06 AM
I have an idea... let's legalize both lighted nocks and barbed expandable broadheads. Arrow sticks in the animal, and the nock lights the way to the wounded critter. That way we can take those 80-100 yd shots at dusk and not worry about losing game.
I keep seeing people say lighted knocks will cause people to take longer range shots and/or lower light shots. I am not a bow hunter, so I am curious how you explain this? My understanding is that the light only comes from the back end of the arrow as it is fired. How would this possibly allow someone to think they could shoot farther or see better when hunting? It makes as much sense to me as it would to say that brighter brake lights on cars would make people drive faster. :dunno:
how bout be happy with what you have,geez in another year the bows will be shooting at muzzle loader speeds..Its really getting ridiculous as to what, or maybe I should say how easy some want hunting with a bow to be..flame away but I'm thinking the whole bow hunting idea was to be a little more demanding on the hunter..To be more in tune with nature....Maybe I'm missing something :dunno:
Just because they keep advancing technology doesn't mean someone is forcing you to use it. Even if someone makes a laser guided homing arrow that can follow deer around corners it's not like they would be coming to your house and secretly replace all your arrows while you are out.
Post by: Kain on August 24, 2011, 11:41:35 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on August 24, 2011, 11:51:01 AM
People are taking longer shots than they should already. I dont hear about big problems in other states that they are legal.:yeah:
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I keep seeing people say lighted knocks will cause people to take longer range shots and/or lower light shotsIf you eliminate the fear of losing an arrow, some bowhunters would risk a low percentage shot, if they can shoot a 3 and 1/2 inch circle at the range, why not take a chance ?
NOT MY FEELING/OPINION !!, just saying. :dunno: some guys already feel no reason not to shoot at animals 60+ yards away.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on August 25, 2011, 12:06:56 AM
I personally have invested more time in the potential loss of our important late hunts and opportunity such as the late Swakane season. Shoot whatever nock you want if you are sitting at home because you don't have a season. Don't worry, you'll draw every 15 years and get to hunt that year... :twocents:
Post by: Miles on August 25, 2011, 12:18:03 AM
Post by: Snapshot on August 25, 2011, 02:21:21 AM
I'm not sure I believe that (wounding loss) figure, either. It is not anywhere near my personal experience or that of my fellow hunters.
It was gobble-dee-gook contrived to lend support to a man's point of view, without any regard whatsoever for the harm it could do to bowhunting. I can't put into words how low that goes in my book.
I am told that Dr Valerius Geist, an expert on antered animals, has written extensively on the subject of studies on recoveries from arrow wounds. Documented information is out there.
Post by: boneaddict on August 25, 2011, 06:13:10 AM
Post by: Lowedog on August 25, 2011, 06:22:09 AM
how bout be happy with what you have,geez in another year the bows will be shooting at muzzle loader speeds..Its really getting ridiculous as to what, or maybe I should say how easy some want hunting with a bow to be..flame away but I'm thinking the whole bow hunting idea was to be a little more demanding on the hunter..To be more in tune with nature....Maybe I'm missing something :dunno:I'm guessing you wouldn't be interested in one of those new Electra muzzleloaders... :chuckle: Use a 9V battery now instead of a cap---faster ignition than even modern firearms.
I am of the opinion that there are only maybe a quarter of the people doing archery/muzzy because of the allure of the equipment and a more restrictive/challenging(?) way of hunting. The state created hunting seasons that have more of an appeal for some based on the season than the weapon of choice. If you could pick season and use any weapon in it, would you care to guess what the archer/muzzy/modern breakdowns would be? So if people are really wishing they could be using a rifle but hunting in the other seasons, then I would guess that these people have no problem using bows/muzzies that are approaching the effectiveness of rifles. But then again the rifle world has plenty of people pushing technology farther and farther with its equipment---look at how many now want to shoot 1000 yards and beyond.
JimmyHoffa, this is one of the most spot on posts regarding this subject that I have read. IMO the number of people hunting muzzy or archery because of a more restricting/challenging form of hunting is much lower than 25%. I believe most are hunting those seasons because of timing of those seasons and a perceived notion that they will have a better chance at killing something.
Sure are a lot of hurt feelings over this article. From my experience I don't think it is far from factual. If you think that most archery hunters are the elite, most ethical hunters around like the few who continually post on these types of threads condemning any thing they don't feel appeals to their own since of what is archery hunting then you should go take a hike in the Swakane unit during late archery.
If anything is a black eye to archery hunting it is the fact that WDFW continues to have a general season mule deer hunt during the rut confined to a couple of units knowing that the Swakane is so accessible. That and the fact that archery hunters continue to support that hunt and flock to it in huge numbers because they think it will be an easy way to kill a mature rutting mule deer should tell you where the heart of the majority of archery hunters lies.
Post by: dreamingbig on August 25, 2011, 06:53:35 AM
I personally have invested more time in the potential loss of our important late hunts and opportunity such as the late Swakane season. Shoot whatever nock you want if you are sitting at home because you don't have a season. Don't worry, you'll draw every 15 years and get to hunt that year... :twocents:
Yes. Well said... I could care less for lighted nocks and this article is bad press all the way around. It is unfortunate but we as an user group need to up our lobbying efforts.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 07:03:46 AM
You say you don't think the article isn't far from factual. Do you say that because you have actual data or is it just a gut feeling? Because again, like the guy trying to push lighted nocks, I don't see any references to back up your "experience". It may just be my assumption, but it sounds to me like you have little or no experience with archery hunting for big game. I don't hunt big game with a modern firearm, but that doesn't mean I'll assume that all the ones who do are lazy, drunk, and will shoot from inside their truck. When you say we flock to the hunt in large numbers, that's very inaccurate. Archers represent only 18% of the total Washington elk hunters-less than 1/5th. That figure comes from the WDFW.
If you don't choose to hunt archery, I don't care. But, don't label hunters using other hunting methods than you with sweeping, negative statements. I respect modern and ML hunters, waterfowlers, upland, predator, and varmint hunters just because they're keeping our hunting heritage alive. We should all be supporting each other in our passion, not throwing one another under the bus.
Good luck bagging something in the upcoming season. I hope you do.
Post by: Lowedog on August 25, 2011, 08:20:43 AM
It may just be my assumption, but it sounds to me like you have little or no experience with archery hunting for big game.
Thats quite an assumption to make off of one post don't you think?
You and the hunters you know probably don't fall into the majority. Again, all it takes is to spend a day out in the late Swakane archery hunt and I believe you will find that the majority of those out there don't fall into the category of "doing it for the challenge and difficulty".
Post by: boneaddict on August 25, 2011, 08:39:52 AM
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I don't care what gadgets or innovations that other archers shoot with, but I do expect a high level of ethics and integrity from all of my hunting partners.
This statement is how I feel but often why I am percieved as being elitist or judgemental or holier than thou, or whatever the insult or category I am thrown in. I strive to be humble, but I do draw the line at slob hunting. I bet the Swakane is full of that, as is general modern, clockum elk etc. Pretty frickin scary really!
Post by: whacker1 on August 25, 2011, 08:42:19 AM
Pionoman, show me where I was speaking for the majority of archery hunters. If you reread my post you will see I stated my opinion and nothing more. Do I not get to have an opinion?It may just be my assumption, but it sounds to me like you have little or no experience with archery hunting for big game.
Thats quite an assumption to make off of one post don't you think?
You and the hunters you know probably don't fall into the majority. Again, all it takes is to spend a day out in the late Swakane archery hunt and I believe you will find that the majority of those out there don't fall into the category of "doing it for the challenge and difficulty".
I will speak to the comments of what motivates me to archery hunt - I took up archery hunting in the last five years because of the Rut and opportunity for the encounters with bulls during the Rut. The "desire" for the Challenge and insight into the process, research, blown opportunities all came to my attention after the fact. I believe that the "desire" for said Challenge comes from one evolving as a hunter and growing as a person.
So, I would agree that there are many people in the field for various motivations. in no particular order to name a few:
1) Challenge
2) Different hunting Opportunities
3) Length of seasons
4) Availability for time off
5) Less competition afield
6) Felons can't own or use firearms - I know a few that are hunting archery to this day for this reason
There are more I am sure. My point is that there are different motivations. I will say that for me as unexperienced Archery hunter, that I would likely use a lighted nock, because I want every opportunity to improve my chances at locating a downed animal. Finding an arrow can tell you a lot about what type of hit the animal encountered. It may make the difference in waiting longer before pursuing the animal, and thus not kicking him out of his or her bed. I don't think that it will change the number of lost or wounded animals by a significant margin. But I do want that option to help me have every tool available for finding my animal when the opportunity arises.
And the article did not cast hunters in a favorable light
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 08:55:53 AM
Pionoman, show me where I was speaking for the majority of archery hunters. If you reread my post you will see I stated my opinion and nothing more. Do I not get to have an opinion?It may just be my assumption, but it sounds to me like you have little or no experience with archery hunting for big game.
Thats quite an assumption to make off of one post don't you think?
You and the hunters you know probably don't fall into the majority. Again, all it takes is to spend a day out in the late Swakane archery hunt and I believe you will find that the majority of those out there don't fall into the category of "doing it for the challenge and difficulty".
I don't know anything about Swakane, but I do know it's only a tiny part of our entire hunting area in WA.
"I believe most are hunting those seasons because of timing of those seasons and a perceived notion that they will have a better chance at killing something." "Most" is a majority. As far as my assumption about your big game archery experience is concerned, you're right, it is a big assumption. So, do you hunt big game with archery equipment? The way you write about archery would indicate that you don't know much about it or the people who practice it. I'd be interested to know.
You also didn't answer my question about whether you had actual facts to back up your statement in agreement with the guy campaigning for lighted nocks. "Sure are a lot of hurt feelings over this article. From my experience I don't think it is far from factual." How do you come to that conclusion? Your "experience" in the Swakane area is hardly a presentation of hard data. It's absolutely subjective if all you're going on is your gut and what you've "experienced".
But you're missing my main point, which is that we need to be more supportive of all hunters always, unless an individual gives us a bad name or acts in a way that casts a bad light on hunters in general. That fact that we all, archers, modern, and ML hunters comprise only 7% of the state's population (source: WDFW) means that when one of us states publicly that half of all archery shot animals are lost, we alarm the public and make them think that hunting is not such a good thing. We need to speak about hunting in a positive light, especially when our thoughts are being published. This guy threw archers under the bus just to forward his personal campaign.
Post by: Lowedog on August 25, 2011, 09:21:47 AM
If you don't feel that the fact that the late Swakane archery continues and is supported by a majority of archery groups and hunters shows nothing more than a desire to have a challenging season then that is your opinion. I feel otherwise. Myself and my close friends no longer hunt that hunt because of what it has become. I know a lot of people who have now switched to muzzy because of it.
Hunts like that and others around the state that are similar become nothing more than a shooting gallery and the fact that the only people witnessing it are other hunters is the only difference from this article and what takes place in the field in regards to casting a bad light on hunting. Just because only other hunters get to see things like this happen doesn't make it OK.
As Aldo Leopold, the “father of wildlife management,” once said, “Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching—even when doing the wrong thing is legal.”
Post by: JimmyHoffa on August 25, 2011, 09:32:33 AM
I made a very similar comment that Lowedog did. I will hunt with anything they will let me use....though if forced to choose a tag it comes down to 'What season/GMU will give me my best chance for getting an animal?', 'What weapon is required?', and 'What is the reality of getting something in that season with that weapon?' This year I have the multi tag for deer...so I didn't have to hurt my head thinking about those too much. But as a previous poster wrote there are many reasons why someone chooses to hunt with archery gear. Some like to be out there in the rut and use a bugle, some like to have longer seasons, some like hunting earlier in the year because of work schedules. Some people like that it is more challenging than a rifle. But I think if it were about making it as challenging as possible (just my opinion) you would see A LOT more recurves and longbows. I see very few trad bows out there. Is hunting with a compound with adjustable sights a challenge? Yes it is. You can make it more demanding by the way you hunt. It might be all the challenge one needs to get to 50 yds from an animal with a bow, vs 100 with a rifle. Some people want it even harder...and try to get 15 yds and use bows that are good for 30 yds.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 09:52:22 AM
Still simply stated my opinion. Nowhere did I say I spoke for anyone other than myself. When I say I believe most people hunt muzzy or archery more because of timing of seasons rather than the increased difficulty or challenge, that is what I believe. I never said it was fact. My belief is based on my experiences and by the people I meet and talk to.
If you don't feel that the fact that the late Swakane archery continues and is supported by a majority of archery groups and hunters shows nothing more than a desire to have a challenging season then that is your opinion. I feel otherwise. Myself and my close friends no longer hunt that hunt because of what it has become. I know a lot of people who have now switched to muzzy because of it.
Hunts like that and others around the state that are similar become nothing more than a shooting gallery and the fact that the only people witnessing it are other hunters is the only difference from this article and what takes place in the field in regards to casting a bad light on hunting. Just because only other hunters get to see things like this happen doesn't make it OK.
As Aldo Leopold, the “father of wildlife management,” once said, “Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching—even when doing the wrong thing is legal.”
I agree completely with your comments about ethics and live by them. I was just saying that if we're going to go public with negative points about hunting, we'd better not only be very accurate about our statements (I don't believe he has data about 50%), but be prepared that the linen we air in public about our fellow hunters will affect how non-hunters view our sport. That's all.
Post by: jnevs23 on August 25, 2011, 10:35:39 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 25, 2011, 10:43:08 AM
Not only do I not believe the statistic of 50% lose to be true, it is so dated that it is no longer relevant. A statistic that is 20-30 years old relating to archery equipment is no longer accurate (assuming it ever was). Comparing a 20-30 year old compound bow to what is on the market now is like racing a model t and Porsche 911
Thanks for making that point.
Post by: jnevs23 on August 25, 2011, 10:48:01 AM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on August 25, 2011, 11:58:52 AM
If anything is a black eye to archery hunting it is the fact that WDFW continues to have a general season mule deer hunt during the rut confined to a couple of units knowing that the Swakane is so accessible. That and the fact that archery hunters continue to support that hunt and flock to it in huge numbers because they think it will be an easy way to kill a mature rutting mule deer should tell you where the heart of the majority of archery hunters lies.
While we are a little off topic, I'm not quite sure statistics bear out what you are saying. Last year 644 archery hunters hunted swakane versus 618 for rifle hunters. Essentially the same amount of people. Where is the great outpouring of support to pull the modern firearm season? Seems like a double standard...? Can you imagine (and I can because i've been there during the rifle season) the zoo it is there with not only a decent number of people, but shots flying by everywhere?
Then you look a the fact they hunt mid to late October when all the resident and many early migrating deer are there. whether rut or not, every deer in that unit dies during that season. Rifle hunters killed 87 deer to only 67 by archers. It is the only late hunt archers have left as all our opportunity to hunt has been taken from us. There are tons of general rifle hunts around. It seems if the goal is to maintain a higher buck/doe ratio in that unit while not substantially affecting allocation and opportunity, the statistics show taking away the general rifle hunt would have much less impact than taking away the only late archery hunt. :twocents: I'm guessing that's one of the reasons why that issue is off the table for this season setting package now. There is nothing easy about that swakane hunt if your an archer. If you are a rifle hunter, it's easy as pie, however...
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on August 25, 2011, 12:01:59 PM
Post by: Machias on August 25, 2011, 12:04:23 PM
Brilliant......as an excuse to use the cute little toy you are going to tell all of the non hunting population (aka future anti hunters/bleeding hearts) that bowhunters wound game and don't find them. He can poll me if he'd like. Also release numbers based on 50 folks. Brilliant again.
and then if we stand up to our own on here because they take dumb shots, don't put in the appropriate effort to recover game, etc we are chastised as being too hard on someone or feeding to the anti hunters. WHATEVER! In this case being stonehard better than the average Blok, isn't such a bad thing.
ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED by a glow in the dark arrow. BRILLIANT AGAIN!
:yeah: X100
Post by: Lowedog on August 25, 2011, 04:42:20 PM
If anything is a black eye to archery hunting it is the fact that WDFW continues to have a general season mule deer hunt during the rut confined to a couple of units knowing that the Swakane is so accessible. That and the fact that archery hunters continue to support that hunt and flock to it in huge numbers because they think it will be an easy way to kill a mature rutting mule deer should tell you where the heart of the majority of archery hunters lies.
While we are a little off topic, I'm not quite sure statistics bear out what you are saying. Last year 644 archery hunters hunted swakane versus 618 for rifle hunters. Essentially the same amount of people. Where is the great outpouring of support to pull the modern firearm season? Seems like a double standard...? Can you imagine (and I can because i've been there during the rifle season) the zoo it is there with not only a decent number of people, but shots flying by everywhere?
Then you look a the fact they hunt mid to late October when all the resident and many early migrating deer are there. whether rut or not, every deer in that unit dies during that season. Rifle hunters killed 87 deer to only 67 by archers. It is the only late hunt archers have left as all our opportunity to hunt has been taken from us. There are tons of general rifle hunts around. It seems if the goal is to maintain a higher buck/doe ratio in that unit while not substantially affecting allocation and opportunity, the statistics show taking away the general rifle hunt would have much less impact than taking away the only late archery hunt. :twocents: I'm guessing that's one of the reasons why that issue is off the table for this season setting package now. There is nothing easy about that swakane hunt if your an archer. If you are a rifle hunter, it's easy as pie, however...
Those numbers are pretty telling themselves. More archers hunt that unit than rifle hunters? I wonder how many only hunt the early season? You need to take into consideration that the late archery hunt is during the peak of the rut and usually when the deer are concentrated to the lower elevations which in turn concentrates the hunters. The fact that the archery hunters are nearly as successful as rifle hunters should also tell you that the timing of those hunts are a big factor.
Rifle season in that unit is a joke also along with most general rifle areas but not nearly as much as the late archery. General rifle occurs at a time of year when deer are still for the most part in their summer habitat and mode. The entire state is open at the same time for general rifle. The late Swakane archery hunt is one of the sacrificial lambs to keep archery hunters happy. There is no comparing what you will see there during late archery and rifle. Apple to oranges.
Come over sometime during the late archery hunt and I will put you on a big buck along with the 20 other guys who know about it and you will have the hunt of your life.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on August 25, 2011, 09:39:10 PM
Post by: boneaddict on August 26, 2011, 06:59:10 AM
Post by: whacker1 on August 26, 2011, 02:02:01 PM
Some of the issues of that overcrowding would be to open up some of the units that have been shut down such as Alta, the hunt in the Cowiche etc. The Swakane has been a popular hunt for a LONG time, but bottlenecking it certainly doesn't help.
Participation would likely go up, and archer satisfaction would as well. Crowding would go down, and harvest across the added units would likely tick up slightly, but probably not as significantly as the decrease in harvest in the swakane that results for the people that would disperse from that unit to the other units as compared to prior seasons. :twocents:
One of the solutions to crowding is to allow people to spread out, and typically harvest goes down in the crowded units while total harvest will tick up slightly. It seems like we (wdfw) bury one unit to grant opportunity at the expense of saving the management in the other units. Wierd solution in my opinion.
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on August 26, 2011, 03:00:11 PM
Post by: boneaddict on August 29, 2011, 12:23:33 PM
Post by: jackelope on August 29, 2011, 12:29:27 PM