Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 26, 2011, 06:57:52 AM
Post by: Camp David on August 26, 2011, 07:02:14 AM
Post by: Camp David on August 26, 2011, 07:08:23 AM
Post by: GoldTip on August 26, 2011, 07:12:24 AM
Post by: h20hunter on August 26, 2011, 07:14:58 AM
Post by: DoubleJ on August 26, 2011, 07:18:21 AM
Post by: oneezreiter on August 26, 2011, 07:22:10 AM
Post by: Elk whack master on August 26, 2011, 07:26:19 AM
Post by: 724wd on August 26, 2011, 08:00:19 AM
Post by: Button Nubbs on August 26, 2011, 09:00:28 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 26, 2011, 09:07:29 AM
Post by: BurleyDog on August 26, 2011, 09:23:23 AM
Its all about putting meat on the table for my family. Wish me luck!
Post by: Kain on August 26, 2011, 09:28:15 AM
Its like they know when you are not going to shoot because they just stand there and taunt you. this one was part demon.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi406.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp150%2FNaithankain%2FElk%2520hunting%25202010%2FDoewithtwins2.jpg&hash=4cc18a983e0c10fd25cb0aa757daab7779150cfe)
Post by: Sneaky on August 26, 2011, 09:29:20 AM
Post by: BLKBEARKLR on August 26, 2011, 09:29:43 AM
I am all about meat on the table, sausage in the freezer and jerky in the fridge.
Joe
Post by: leavenworth5 on August 26, 2011, 09:30:17 AM
Post by: woodswalker on August 26, 2011, 09:37:32 AM
Over her lifetime and the lifetimes of the next 2 generations you will get 10 deer from her, which will produce, over their life - using the same numbers 50 deer, 25 does and 25 bucks...and the second generation will produce 250 deer, 125 does and 125 bucks. hence if you take the does you cut OFF the deer production. That one doe costs 300 deer in the out-years.
I realize that this is an oversimplification but it serves to emphasize the point that taking a doe has a tremendous impact on the overall population potential for deer.
Also understand that SOME places are overrun with deer, like the wheat fields full of WT's and that the GOAL is to reduce the year to year population growth...which IS wildlife management. But for the rest of the populations, we are served better by sticking to bucks.
Post by: PlateauNDN on August 26, 2011, 09:50:37 AM
I will shoot at the first BIG doe that gives me a shot. I am all about the meat, just cant wait to get the kids a big fat juicy deer steak! :EAT: :drool:
I usually spend a couple of weekends trying to out of the fall to get a bull or buck but if that presents no opportunity then doe steak, burgers and ribs eat better then bulls and bucks!!! Any meat is good meat and better than no meat!!!! :cue: :EAT:
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on August 26, 2011, 09:54:59 AM
I shoot my deer while hunting for Elk !
Also, just to respond to
While I agree that does are tasty and fill the freezer, from a biological point of view its cutting off your nose to spite your face. When you take a buck, there will be another one to breed the does. When you take a doe you END the line of deer production of bucks AND does... Think it through....how many deer does a doe give birth to over her fertile lifetime? Lets assume for easy numbers she can give birth to 10 deer, 5 does and 5 bucks that survive to adulthood and fertility.As you stated, that is an over simplification, and I used to think that way, but I do not feel that it has that much affect on populations.
Over her lifetime and the lifetimes of the next 2 generations you will get 10 deer from her, which will produce, over their life - using the same numbers 50 deer, 25 does and 25 bucks...and the second generation will produce 250 deer, 125 does and 125 bucks. hence if you take the does you cut OFF the deer production.
I realize that this is an oversimplification but it serves to emphasize the point that taking a doe has a tremendous impact on the overall population potential for deer.
Also understand that SOME places are overrun with deer, like the wheat fields full of WT's and that the GOAL is to reduce the year to year population growth...which IS wildlife management. But for the rest of the populations, we are served better by sticking to bucks.
when numbers are low, and food is plentiful, does "twin up", meaning they have twin (2) fawns.
When numbers are stable, food is normal, then a lot of them still "twin up"
In bad years, they will have one fawn, in bad winters they will even abort, nature seeks a balance in all things.
When it comes to deer, in a healthy herd, a few are going to get hit by cars, killed by predators, die from disease, etc.
harvesting a few does has no significant impact, now harvesting a lot of does, might...
But as an example, look at the Islands, lots of does killed every year, by all weapons, still a lot of deer.
Post by: elkboy on August 26, 2011, 10:09:48 AM
Post by: Kain on August 26, 2011, 10:12:36 AM
If there was a 50/50 doe to buck ratio and all the doe's had two fawns the population would double. Of course there are far more doe's than bucks, not all would survive and there are other factors involved but letting populations double within two to three years could lead to major problems.
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on August 26, 2011, 10:24:56 AM
Post by: runamuk on August 26, 2011, 10:30:05 AM
I know a gal who hunts montana every year with her dad and calls herself the doe slayer :chuckle: she takes several every year last year she got her first buck and some does .... its all about whats available and filling the freezer..
and Kain love the demon doe and fawns :chuckle:
Post by: shanevg on August 26, 2011, 10:45:54 AM
Personally for me it depends on the year. I will shoot a doe in any given year because I seem to run out of meat no matter what I do. This year with a bear down already and a Colorado deer hunt in November I may be a bit more selective than normal. But, if a doe stands broadside at 30 yards right off the road I won't be able to pass on the shot!
Post by: dylanb on August 26, 2011, 10:50:09 AM
Post by: Jellymon on August 26, 2011, 10:54:25 AM
Post by: sirfunkeybut on August 26, 2011, 11:01:07 AM
Post by: Antlershed on August 26, 2011, 12:20:40 PM
Post by: buckfvr on August 26, 2011, 01:03:18 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 26, 2011, 01:18:35 PM
Post by: rebal69972 on August 26, 2011, 01:29:14 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on August 26, 2011, 01:41:59 PM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on August 26, 2011, 01:43:43 PM
Post by: buglebuster on August 26, 2011, 03:09:33 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 26, 2011, 03:18:24 PM
Because I really never TRY for a deer, I just shoot the first legal deer that is dumb enough to let me get close.yep I agree plus if you want a good buck to doe ratio then you best whack a couple doe !!!
I shoot my deer while hunting for Elk !
Also, just to respond toWhile I agree that does are tasty and fill the freezer, from a biological point of view its cutting off your nose to spite your face. When you take a buck, there will be another one to breed the does. When you take a doe you END the line of deer production of bucks AND does... Think it through....how many deer does a doe give birth to over her fertile lifetime? Lets assume for easy numbers she can give birth to 10 deer, 5 does and 5 bucks that survive to adulthood and fertility.As you stated, that is an over simplification, and I used to think that way, but I do not feel that it has that much affect on populations.
Over her lifetime and the lifetimes of the next 2 generations you will get 10 deer from her, which will produce, over their life - using the same numbers 50 deer, 25 does and 25 bucks...and the second generation will produce 250 deer, 125 does and 125 bucks. hence if you take the does you cut OFF the deer production.
I realize that this is an oversimplification but it serves to emphasize the point that taking a doe has a tremendous impact on the overall population potential for deer.
Also understand that SOME places are overrun with deer, like the wheat fields full of WT's and that the GOAL is to reduce the year to year population growth...which IS wildlife management. But for the rest of the populations, we are served better by sticking to bucks.
when numbers are low, and food is plentiful, does "twin up", meaning they have twin (2) fawns.
When numbers are stable, food is normal, then a lot of them still "twin up"
In bad years, they will have one fawn, in bad winters they will even abort, nature seeks a balance in all things.
When it comes to deer, in a healthy herd, a few are going to get hit by cars, killed by predators, die from disease, etc.
harvesting a few does has no significant impact, now harvesting a lot of does, might...
But as an example, look at the Islands, lots of does killed every year, by all weapons, still a lot of deer.
Post by: seth30 on August 26, 2011, 03:57:06 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on August 26, 2011, 04:24:03 PM
Post by: backwoods_boy on August 26, 2011, 04:28:03 PM
Post by: hillbilli on August 26, 2011, 04:30:28 PM
Post by: seth30 on August 26, 2011, 07:12:18 PM
Killed my first blacktail last year.. a mature doe, and while I have a second tag this year, I dont tend to pass up legal deer. (or elk for that matter) i figure with all I put into the hunt- fuel, tag money, etc. I ought to get the freezer stocked, so thats what I do.. this might explain why I have a fair pile of small whitetail racks, I dont pass up much..:yeah: Well put, I agree the freezer comes first :tup:
Post by: 724wd on August 26, 2011, 10:23:42 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi8.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa14%2F724wd%2FIMG_0288.jpg&hash=b9c9b607910286d114e4e4d015cd10e97e38f0f7)
Post by: huntnnw on August 26, 2011, 11:01:43 PM
Post by: jechicdr on August 27, 2011, 12:33:58 AM
Ideally, if you could have a 1:1 buck to breeding doe ratio, competition between buck for those few does would make for some exciting action. If you killed 1/2 the breeding does, the remaining 1/2 could in theory produce enough does to replace the ones that were killed and produce as many bucks...which would have to be harvested from the buck side to keep the population stable.
Lets play with some numbers (assuming carrying capacity is 200 deer):
100 buck and 100 does...harvest 50 does and 50 bucks...remaining 50 does on average will produce 50 does and 50 bucks...leaving 100 does and 100 bucks
from same starting point harvest 10 does and 90 bucks...remaining 90 does will produce 90 bucks and 90 does...leaving 180 does and 100 bucks (90% young bucks) Now you have 80 more animals than can be sustained, so you will kill off 50 does and 30 bucks to starvation leaving 130 does and 70 bucks. You can probably see where that trend would end up
lets start with 50 bucks and 100 does. Kill 10 bucks and 50 does. Remaining 50 will produce 50 does and 50 bucks leaving 90 bucks and 100 does (none die...190 deer). Next year take 40 bucks and 50 does. You'll be left with 100 does and 100 bucks
Might be a little oversimplification (especially assuming that each doe can produce 2 offspring each year, but you can see the point. Killing does (as long as production rate replenishes the breeding doe population) in the long run lets you kill more bucks, and the bucks are older a.k.a bigger (you're letting half the bucks walk and survive another year)
So yes, I'll kill a doe every time...until a buck bigger than any other that I have shot walks out. Now I won't shoot a doe when I'm elk hunting, but I also won't kill any buck that isn't a wall hanger.
Post by: RadSav on August 27, 2011, 01:40:26 AM
Yep! It happened...bucks, bucks everywhere and not a doe to shoot. Wasn't until rifle season they finally had their buck tags. But the old lady would not allow them to use rifles on her property :bash:
Here when the freezer is empty the Squaw will shoot a mature doe in the early season if it has no fawns. Takes the pressure off and allows us to be more selective during the first half of elk season. They sure taste good and she has one heck of a good time getting a hunt to herself without worry I'll get trigger happy and mess things up (It may have happened once or twice ;)). Many of our most memorable hunts together end with her tagging a big ole flathead.
Post by: Bean Counter on August 27, 2011, 04:56:13 AM
If I ever move out east and I'm only allowed one doe and one buck, I'd like to shoot a doe first. That way, I know there is meat in the freezer and I wont be tempted to settle for less of a buck.
Post by: bearpaw on August 27, 2011, 05:17:37 AM
Post by: hoyt5199 on August 27, 2011, 06:38:38 AM
Post by: Kain on August 27, 2011, 07:26:14 AM
Healthy buck to doe ratio is very important to healthy deer populations and competition between bucks makes it a lot more fun with them responding to calls and rattling. Habitat is much more important at this time to larger deer populations than letting does survive and breed. If a certain area has the maximum sustainable population, then any production in excess of the natural death rate will mean more deer will die of starvation and disease because of overpopulation or need to be harvested by hunting.
Ideally, if you could have a 1:1 buck to breeding doe ratio, competition between buck for those few does would make for some exciting action. If you killed 1/2 the breeding does, the remaining 1/2 could in theory produce enough does to replace the ones that were killed and produce as many bucks...which would have to be harvested from the buck side to keep the population stable.
Lets play with some numbers (assuming carrying capacity is 200 deer):
100 buck and 100 does...harvest 50 does and 50 bucks...remaining 50 does on average will produce 50 does and 50 bucks...leaving 100 does and 100 bucks
from same starting point harvest 10 does and 90 bucks...remaining 90 does will produce 90 bucks and 90 does...leaving 180 does and 100 bucks (90% young bucks) Now you have 80 more animals than can be sustained, so you will kill off 50 does and 30 bucks to starvation leaving 130 does and 70 bucks. You can probably see where that trend would end up
lets start with 50 bucks and 100 does. Kill 10 bucks and 50 does. Remaining 50 will produce 50 does and 50 bucks leaving 90 bucks and 100 does (none die...190 deer). Next year take 40 bucks and 50 does. You'll be left with 100 does and 100 bucks
Might be a little oversimplification (especially assuming that each doe can produce 2 offspring each year, but you can see the point. Killing does (as long as production rate replenishes the breeding doe population) in the long run lets you kill more bucks, and the bucks are older a.k.a bigger (you're letting half the bucks walk and survive another year)
So yes, I'll kill a doe every time...until a buck bigger than any other that I have shot walks out. Now I won't shoot a doe when I'm elk hunting, but I also won't kill any buck that isn't a wall hanger.
This is a very good example except for one thing. When populations are over carrying capacity it is not just the excess that die. That is a very common misunderstanding.
Take your example. A certain area can sustain 200 deer. 100 are does and they have one fawn each. For the whole next year that area will be over carrying capacity by 100 deer. When you ask most people how many will die because of it they will say 100. Right? Well that is not how it actually works. You had 300 deer where only 200 could be sustained. You have 300 deer competing for 200 deers worth of food, water, space and shelter. That means EVERY deer in that area had less all year long. When winter comes along MOST will die or be so malnourished or stressed that few will have offspring the next spring.
Most people think that "carrying capacity" is the number the area should have but in reality it is the maximum an areas can have an still maintain healthy animals. Even being near carrying capacity is bad for most wildlife.
Remember kids I am not a biologist I just play one on the internet. :chuckle:
Post by: jrebel on August 27, 2011, 08:07:15 AM
If I have no other plans it will depend on how much meat is in the freezer? If it's getting low on deer burger then I will kill a doe on the first day if she is big enough.
Lots of variables.
Post by: Yak-NDN on August 27, 2011, 10:02:33 AM
Post by: Curly on August 27, 2011, 10:08:45 AM
The deer population seems down, I have no problem with killing antlerles but I just try to keep every doe alive for reproduction.
:yeah: Same here.
I passed up a few does last year during late muzzleloader season (and a few spikes) because I know the population is lower than what it historically has been.
Post by: Yak-NDN on August 27, 2011, 10:12:32 AM
The deer population seems down, I have no problem with killing antlerles but I just try to keep every doe alive for reproduction.
:yeah: Same here.
I passed up a few does last year during late muzzleloader season (and a few spikes) because I know the population is lower than what it historically has been.
Should be dropping them spikes but a little small not much for the freezer on them.
Post by: Kain on August 27, 2011, 10:15:31 AM
The deer population seems down, I have no problem with killing antlerles but I just try to keep every doe alive for reproduction.
:yeah: Same here.
I passed up a few does last year during late muzzleloader season (and a few spikes) because I know the population is lower than what it historically has been.
Thats good. Hunters know their areas and what it can handle as far as hunting pressure. My area seems stable but I have been hunting predators just to keep their numbers down when I can. Next step would be to not take doe's if I thought they needed it, despite what the regs are.
Post by: pips4bucks on August 27, 2011, 10:52:19 AM
I leave the game management to the people who get paid to do so. Some of them may be idiots, but they have a plan of some sorts. If we play our part as hunters it'll help them with their management.
Post by: bare.hunter on August 27, 2011, 11:41:19 AM
an area that gets hunted hard and alot of small bucks get killed and that leaves more does well there is
not enough bucks to breed those does in the first or second rut so what happens is alot of fawns are born
really late they have a much harder time making it.Last year in early muzzy season I say two spoted fawns
in late sept.this tells me the buck to doe ratio is way out of wack time to kill does and leave some buck to
grow up and breed.It is this reason Iam a doe killer and the steaks arnt bad either.
Post by: jstone on August 27, 2011, 12:56:01 PM
Post by: Jeffrey on August 28, 2011, 07:37:46 AM
Post by: Snapshot on August 28, 2011, 10:21:35 AM
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on August 28, 2011, 10:29:06 AM
Post by: iRem on August 28, 2011, 02:06:24 PM
Post by: colockumelk on August 28, 2011, 06:38:41 PM
The deer population seems down, I have no problem with killing antlerles but I just try to keep every doe alive for reproduction.
:yeah: Same here.
I passed up a few does last year during late muzzleloader season (and a few spikes) because I know the population is lower than what it historically has been.
Should be dropping them spikes but a little small not much for the freezer on them.
YAK this is a totally serious proposition so please don't take it the wrong way. Up in the LT Murray there is a bunch of big mature 2x2's that will never grow a third point so they will never get shot. Instead all the normal deer that progress and grow 3rd and 4th points get killed, leaving these big mature 2x2's to do the breeding and passing on their horrible genetics.
So could you and some of your friends go in their and weed out some of those mature 2x2's. PLEASE.... PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE??????
Post by: vern96 on August 28, 2011, 06:43:47 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 28, 2011, 06:44:34 PM
Man you know your sheet O.K I hunted that area for years in the early and late 90s ..taken a few elk with my bow and muzzleloader.. and every year we would see some huge freaken 2x2 in there ...your right about that ...same with blacktail seen and killed to many old 2x2 which will not get any bigger .....kill em all !!!The deer population seems down, I have no problem with killing antlerles but I just try to keep every doe alive for reproduction.
:yeah: Same here.
I passed up a few does last year during late muzzleloader season (and a few spikes) because I know the population is lower than what it historically has been.
Should be dropping them spikes but a little small not much for the freezer on them.
YAK this is a totally serious proposition so please don't take it the wrong way. Up in the LT Murray there is a bunch of big mature 2x2's that will never grow a third point so they will never get shot. Instead all the normal deer that progress and grow 3rd and 4th points get killed, leaving these big mature 2x2's to do the breeding and passing on their horrible genetics.
So could you and some of your friends go in their and weed out some of those mature 2x2's. PLEASE.... PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE??????
Post by: Elkrunner on August 29, 2011, 10:03:28 PM
Post by: Battle Ready on August 29, 2011, 10:39:18 PM
Post by: Maverick on August 30, 2011, 10:19:01 AM
Post by: PolarBear on August 30, 2011, 10:25:44 AM
I would give up hunting before shooting a doe or even a spike for that matter. If that is your thing have at it. I see absolutely no challenge in it.
Post by: Yak-NDN on August 30, 2011, 10:53:43 AM
Man you know your sheet O.K I hunted that area for years in the early and late 90s ..taken a few elk with my bow and muzzleloader.. and every year we would see some huge freaken 2x2 in there ...your right about that ...same with blacktail seen and killed to many old 2x2 which will not get any bigger .....kill em all !!!The deer population seems down, I have no problem with killing antlerles but I just try to keep every doe alive for reproduction.
:yeah: Same here.
I passed up a few does last year during late muzzleloader season (and a few spikes) because I know the population is lower than what it historically has been.
Should be dropping them spikes but a little small not much for the freezer on them.
YAK this is a totally serious proposition so please don't take it the wrong way. Up in the LT Murray there is a bunch of big mature 2x2's that will never grow a third point so they will never get shot. Instead all the normal deer that progress and grow 3rd and 4th points get killed, leaving these big mature 2x2's to do the breeding and passing on their horrible genetics.
So could you and some of your friends go in their and weed out some of those mature 2x2's. PLEASE.... PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE??????
When I get called to hunt for a service I could help you out. I wont go out and kill them just because we want them gone I don't roll like that. I got called for a service two weeks ago I wish I would have known that, i could have helped you out.
Post by: saylean on August 30, 2011, 08:37:01 PM
Loved it.
Post by: Elkrunner on September 02, 2011, 07:24:17 AM
Post by: sneakyjake on September 02, 2011, 08:28:13 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on September 02, 2011, 08:32:52 AM
mmmmmmmmmThats what I am saying ....meat in the freezer :tup:
Post by: MLBowhunting on September 02, 2011, 08:47:11 AM
Post by: h20hunter on September 02, 2011, 09:16:40 AM
Post by: Curly on September 02, 2011, 02:54:42 PM
Post by: kglacken on September 02, 2011, 02:58:15 PM
Post by: h20hunter on September 02, 2011, 03:02:11 PM
Hope you whack a monster with the tag!
Post by: Snapshot on September 02, 2011, 05:34:50 PM
Post by: PolarBear on September 03, 2011, 10:11:55 AM
Post by: Curly on September 03, 2011, 10:44:56 AM
There are two does that lost their fawns this year......one to a dog, the other I think just got sick. I hope that if he shoots a doe it is one of those two.
Post by: h20hunter on September 03, 2011, 10:45:54 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on September 03, 2011, 11:33:07 AM
Post by: PolarBear on September 03, 2011, 02:05:32 PM
Post by: h20hunter on September 03, 2011, 02:10:20 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 06, 2011, 08:45:08 AM
Got six does and 2 spikes standing in my pasture right now and a truck with 2 bowhunters in it parked at the end of my driveway with binoculars. They are in for a rude awakening. It happens every year. >:(
I'll always stop and look at deer on someone's property, never with a weapon in my hand. I love to see deer and elk, whether I get to shoot at them or not.
Post by: npaull on September 06, 2011, 05:44:49 PM
Post by: Greg Mullins on September 06, 2011, 06:44:42 PM
Post by: Lunchbox1981 on September 07, 2011, 06:21:25 AM
Post by: 724wd on September 07, 2011, 11:44:24 AM
Of the deer we've been watching, there are 4-5 old does that didn't have or lost fawns this year. two have spikes trailing them everywhere they go and the other two are just ornery old batches! I'd love to shoot one, but not sure my kiddo will be up for sitting in the snow and cold come december. not sure if I'LL be up for sitting in the snow and cold come december!
Why do i have to wait until the last 5 days? won't those that will shoot a doe the first day shoot a gal in december if a 4 point doesnt walk by sometime during the season? i don't see the harvest numbers being that much different, unless like me, they change areas or skip the cold season (likely thought process by WDFW).
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on September 07, 2011, 11:57:29 AM
-Steve