Post by: pianoman9701 on September 06, 2011, 08:14:15 AM
Post by: woodswalker on September 06, 2011, 08:20:23 AM
I see a disturbing number of folks who will take 70-80-90+ yard shots on game! Or at least that is what they brag about before admitting that they didnt recover the critter. As with rifle hunting...one needs to be able to reliably hit the target ALL THE TIME at a given distance AND the projectile (bullet or arrow) needs to have enough energy left at range to reliably penetrate the game with a fatal wounding occuring. An arrow in the haunch does NOT count.
With the longer shots there are SO many more variables that i think most of the distance shooters are fooling themselves.
Post by: eggster on September 06, 2011, 08:55:13 AM
Post by: Camp David on September 06, 2011, 09:08:47 AM
Post by: bobcat on September 06, 2011, 09:12:14 AM
Quote
I think that's a great idea.you should have to prove yourself to at least 50yds
Why should I have to "prove myself" to 50 yards if I won't take a shot at an animal beyond 30 yards?
Post by: Camp David on September 06, 2011, 09:17:12 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 06, 2011, 09:18:53 AM
QuoteI think that's a great idea.you should have to prove yourself to at least 50yds
Why should I have to "prove myself" to 50 yards if I won't take a shot at an animal beyond 30 yards?
I completely agree with that statement. :yeah: :yeah:
Post by: woodswalker on September 06, 2011, 09:37:39 AM
Post by: Special T on September 06, 2011, 09:49:20 AM
Post by: jackmaster on September 06, 2011, 10:18:03 AM
Post by: Kola16 on September 06, 2011, 10:24:15 AM
Post by: Fishhunt223 on September 06, 2011, 10:30:35 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 06, 2011, 10:52:44 AM
Post by: JLS on September 06, 2011, 10:54:55 AM
I agree rifle hunters can be just as big of idiots. I want to police my own sport. I have taken a bow ed class (required in MT) and it was very educational and informative. I was glad I took it. I would fully support the same class here.
It is amazing how many people take up archery for whatever reason, and know absolutely nothing about their equipment or the nuances of bowhunting.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 06, 2011, 11:25:59 AM
well to be brutally honest i think everyone should have to go through a course that is a little more demanding than hunter ed, because i have ran into some real fricken whack jobs in my time in the woods bow hunters and rifle hunters alike, i have seen a few deer and one elk with arrows sticken in them but i have also shot a couple deer and found old bullets in them, what i wish for is a common sense course that you should have to go through every couple 2 or 3 years no pass no hunt, but it should only be administerd to people over the age of 18, youth wouldnt have to take the course until they turn 18..Have you been reading my mind? Every year during hunting season (especially during modern--even more especially during late buck) I have this very same plan come to mind.
If anybody wants to see what actually goes on during modern season, go hang out at the sporting goods counter of your local walmart the night before opening day. You would be amazed at the amount of people that come in for a tag, a box of ammo, and to have their rifle boresighted. These are the same guys who think that if they hit an animal with a bullet, that animal will drop in his tracks. .What's even scarier than wally world is to go to a gun range on the weekend before the opener. :yike:
Overall, I think a course for bowhunting would be a good idea, not sure about the mandatory part. Safety courses yes, but ethics/educational courses..maybe make an incentive to taking them. Reduced license? Special tags available? Extra season?
Post by: PolarBear on September 06, 2011, 11:31:51 AM
Post by: seth30 on September 06, 2011, 11:35:02 AM
I think that it is a great idea but as with regular hunter's ed, a lot of those who pass it disregard it of forget what they have learned as soon as they walk out that door. Take a look around the next time you are in the woods and see how many folks who have passed the course are behaving in an exact opposite manner to which they were taught.well put! :yeah:
Post by: jackmaster on September 06, 2011, 11:46:49 AM
Post by: BurleyDog on September 06, 2011, 12:08:37 PM
If they make it a requirment I will stop bowhunting. I can't give up work time/ family time for this type of class. Besides it won't stop bad shots
This is a very very :bdid: at a time when we need to be RECRUITING hunters not mandating them away!
Post by: gallion_t on September 06, 2011, 12:10:18 PM
You can teach ethical and responsible hunting all you want in the class room, but the majority of learning come from the in the Field. The state already does something similar to this by allowing you a 1 year waiver on your hunter education class if you hunt with someone who has hunted for 5 years. I think these should be combined, have to pass hunters safety, and hunt with someone who has displayed higher ethics and responsibilities. :twocents:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 06, 2011, 12:20:22 PM
I think that it is a great idea but as with regular hunter's ed, a lot of those who pass it disregard it or forget what they have learned as soon as they walk out that door. Take a look around the next time you are in the woods and see how many folks who have passed the course are behaving in an exact opposite manner to which they were taught.Yup, agree with you Polarbear. Another example is-I have been taught from probably age 5 maybe earlier from school/home/community to not drink and drive. I think 1/4 of the class and test for driver's ed was about alcohol and effects on driving. I can only assume that people my age and younger have had this same constant education. Yet there are still lots of DUIs. For the hunter/bowhunter ed, it at least (mostly) eliminates the ignorance defense when someone does do something bad.
Post by: woodswalker on September 06, 2011, 12:23:51 PM
Just sayin'
Post by: jackmaster on September 06, 2011, 12:25:40 PM
Post by: jstone on September 06, 2011, 12:44:13 PM
Post by: Kain on September 06, 2011, 01:03:01 PM
When I took hunters ed I remember there being very little information on archery hunting at all. Now with weapons seasons on animals like cougar and multi season tags they are making it so all hunters will need to be proficient with multiple weapons. I would hate to see a guy go out and buy a bow and sight it in just to go hunt cougars for a month and then store it for the rest of the year. I am guilty of this with my muzzleloader.
There are just as many, if not more, guys taking marginal shots with rifles as bows. (I have no references for this just my opinion.)
The course is online for any that want to take it. I have a feeling the guys that will do the course are the guys that would not be the problem in the first place. http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/huntered/classes/bowhunting.php (http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/huntered/classes/bowhunting.php)
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 06, 2011, 01:10:55 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 06, 2011, 01:26:45 PM
I don't think WDFW and others understand how limiting these requirements are. People just don't have time to spend a Saturday listening to some yahoo talk to them about bow hunting.
If they make it a requirment I will stop bowhunting. I can't give up work time/ family time for this type of class. Besides it won't stop bad shots
This is a very very :bdid: at a time when we need to be RECRUITING hunters not mandating them away!
This is not a proposal of the WDFW. This is an informal poll about bow hunter's ed. The "yahoos" are all volunteers, seasoned hunters who give their time to bring younger folks into hunting. Maybe you could put it differently.
Post by: Kola16 on September 06, 2011, 01:46:15 PM
Post by: JLS on September 06, 2011, 02:18:11 PM
So there are never any wounded not recovered animals in states with mandatory archery class? How about unethical hunters? They must not exist there either. Nothing wrong with our system in my opinion. People complain about all the new wdfw rules and then say there should be required classes? :bash:
I don't think anyone believes this would eliminate this type of behavior. One only has to look at hunter ed for rifle hunters to dispell this myth. However, if it helps a few people realize that it is NOT the norm to shoot 80 yards, then not follow up your shot (as one example, not all encompassing) then it's worth it. I try to mentor as many new archery hunters as I can, and it amazes me the stuff they don't know because they were never taught.
Post by: rebal69972 on September 06, 2011, 02:58:18 PM
QuoteI think that's a great idea.you should have to prove yourself to at least 50yds
Why should I have to "prove myself" to 50 yards if I won't take a shot at an animal beyond 30 yards?
i spend all spring and summer at the range and i carry a bow target to camp with me, when i cant make the shot I'm tring to is when i will hang my bow up. i have a 40 yard pin on my bow but in 20 year i have never used it out side the range. and really most bad shots and bad judgments are due to Adrenalin and people making a snap decision.
Post by: Nilehunter on September 06, 2011, 03:52:54 PM
I say if you require it for one method you would need to require a class for each method. How many "hunters" are out there every year with zero trigger time? The number is close to the number of hunters that only leave their vehicle to pee during the hunting day. I'm not talking about disable hunters but the able hunters.
Post by: MtnMuley on September 06, 2011, 04:25:13 PM
Post by: colockumelk on September 06, 2011, 06:39:30 PM
Post by: notsosneaky on September 06, 2011, 07:18:02 PM
Themself. This is the additude of a person who will acctually benefit from it.
You cant learn patience, ethics, skill, self control, or any behavior from a class.
It just seems like a waste of resources to make it mandatory.
Post by: colockumelk on September 06, 2011, 07:33:38 PM
Post by: elksnout on September 06, 2011, 08:06:15 PM
And as far as the guy walking into a shop the day before the season ( gun or bow ) to outfit themselves, how about having a cutoff date prior to the season for buying tags?
Tuff call either way for how much we might actually gain.
Post by: MtnMuley on September 06, 2011, 08:43:01 PM
Post by: huntnphool on September 06, 2011, 08:45:05 PM
Yes there are states that require it.
Montana requires it or proof from the previous year that you hunted archery season in your state.
Post by: dscubame on September 06, 2011, 08:45:39 PM
Post by: shanevg on September 06, 2011, 09:51:21 PM
Post by: colockumelk on September 07, 2011, 05:40:45 AM
Post by: ORCA_SIX on September 07, 2011, 06:12:58 AM
It was one day and it was anything but a waste of a day. I had fun and learned a lot. And im not a new guy to archery either. I know more about archery than most and the course was great. The way I see it the only way to get rid of the people we always complain about is to implement this course. Resources are thin, we need to weed out the umdesirables and strengthen the bowhunting herd.
Who is going to be the judge and jury on this? Seems rather discriminatory to me and I think it could end up being to subjective.
Post by: oneezreiter on September 07, 2011, 06:27:18 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 07, 2011, 06:32:12 AM
I will be taking one of these classes so i can bow hunt ID. That said, i do not think a class is going to change the way people think(mostly they don't)... Can anyone point out to me the facts, where i can get them, and say that there are less hunting related accidents since the advent of hunter safety? I am not against the class so much as i am against all the government regulation... I don't like wounded game, or loosing them. I shot a doe in Arkensaw at 12 yards from a tree stand and though it to be a good shot. I hit here at a steep angle, she folded got up ran folded then ran a little father and folded... I gave it about 15-20 min and got out of the stand... She got up and ran across a creek in the pitch black and i never found her, not even the next day... Bow hunting will always have wounded animals, and some lessons are the hardest learned. :(You don't have to take a class in Idaho if you send them proof that you have bow hunted in another state, I sent in the paper work this year. You should be able to find it in there hunting regs. I'm against a bow class and very much against going back to classes every 2 to 3 years, leave me the heck alone. I am for a commen sense class though :chuckle:, too bad there is no class for that!!
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on September 07, 2011, 06:48:37 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on September 07, 2011, 07:02:27 AM
It was one day and it was anything but a waste of a day. I had fun and learned a lot. And im not a new guy to archery either. I know more about archery than most and the course was great. The way I see it the only way to get rid of the people we always complain about is to implement this course. Resources are thin, we need to weed out the umdesirables and strengthen the bowhunting herd.
Who is going to be the judge and jury on this? Seems rather discriminatory to me and I think it could end up being to subjective.
THE Nanny State elected by those of pugetropolis transplanted from kookifornia and other liberal states over the last 40 years.
Careful what Y'all wish for!
If you want to relieve bowhunters of the lazy ones, Just have DFW do away with resource allocation. When it was implemented 30 years ago the archery crowd got a BUNCH of inexperienced newbies due to the favorable seasons and ability to plug cows at the time.
Post by: Fishhunt223 on September 07, 2011, 07:18:45 AM
I had to take one to hunt is South Dakota, it was one day and not to bad. met some nice people, learned a little bit about bow hunting, and had a good time. I think that it gets rid of the lazy hunters that just bow hunt because there are less people. If you won't get off your ass to get the right shot then you won't get out of the house to do the class either. I am all for it.Obviously most of them got off their asses to do the regular hunter Ed so I'm sure they would jump through this hoop as well. All that will happen is all of the people who don't want to be there will ruin the class for everybody who is actually there to learn.
Post by: 724wd on September 07, 2011, 07:29:37 AM
instead of a mandatory class, why not work with local clubs to get more kids involved? NASP, anyone? you can't teach ethics to an old dog, but kids are sponges that would respond better to instruction.
I passed hunter safety and see no reason to be forced to pass more classes.
Post by: colockumelk on September 07, 2011, 07:38:04 AM
It was one day and it was anything but a waste of a day. I had fun and learned a lot. And im not a new guy to archery either. I know more about archery than most and the course was great. The way I see it the only way to get rid of the people we always complain about is to implement this course. Resources are thin, we need to weed out the umdesirables and strengthen the bowhunting herd.
Who is going to be the judge and jury on this? Seems rather discriminatory to me and I think it could end up being to subjective.
orca what i meant by it would weed out the lazy ones who have no business being in the woods with a bow I didn't mean because of a failure rate in the class. The test is common sense stuff and if you pay attention you will pass. I meant that like oneezreiter said the ones who are too lazy to take the time to be safe and responsible with their bow are not going to take the time to take the class. Hence they will self eliminate by choosing not to take the class.
Lazy hunters take hunters ed because they have to in order to hunt period. The lazy ones will not take this course because if they are too lazy to take the time to practise etc they won't take tje time to take the course. Instead they will say screw it im hunting with a gun.
Post by: colockumelk on September 07, 2011, 07:43:12 AM
There is A LOT of people who have no business being in the woods with a bow. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. This class would be a way to police our own.
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 07, 2011, 07:52:07 AM
It does seem that the room is quite evenly split on this issue. Until that changes, I don't see us (either Hunt-WA or WFW) approaching WDFW to add this requirement to bow hunting here. It does make for a good, lively discussion, however!
Post by: Snapshot on September 07, 2011, 09:05:10 AM
I would be against a proficiency test being part of the criteria for pass/fail. It was said here that Basic Hunter Education only requires a demonstration in being able to safely handle the weapon. Bowhunter education should require the same. The reason for this is that the different weapons have different capabilities. If a longbow man who won't shoot at an animal beyond 25 yards were required to shoot from 35 yards, then a compound man should have to lay flat on his back, draw and hit a target that is five yards away, or at the very least be on his knees with the compound held flat to the ground and only pull it to three-quarter draw and be able to hit the vitals from ten yards away. Different capabilities can't be put into a one-size-fits-all shooting test.
When my daughter took a bowhunter education class I accompanied her. It was interesting and I had archery hunted for decades. The time commitment was big; but the courses offered in some of other states can be taken almost entirely on line, with only one day required in a class setting outdoors.
And I agree that those who won't commit to the time it takes to learn, or prove they already know, the basics of hunting with a bow and arrow aren't the type of people who should be representing bowhunting.
Post by: Goldeneye on September 07, 2011, 09:24:33 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 07, 2011, 09:47:22 AM
Not to stir things up or anything but I just got done talking to a friend that's a long time resident of Winthrop who has property over there. He told me this morning that so far this week the city has had to destroy 3 deer that were wandering around town with arrows hanging out of them. I believe an education course could not of hurt for the individuals who shot these arrows. Not to mention the damage it does to the public image of hunters.
That sounds like a very large number in one place at one time. I'm not questioning you, Goldeneye, but I don't believe this number is true.
Post by: Goldeneye on September 07, 2011, 09:49:58 AM
Post by: woodswalker on September 07, 2011, 10:04:45 AM
Post by: ORCA_SIX on September 07, 2011, 10:11:28 AM
It was one day and it was anything but a waste of a day. I had fun and learned a lot. And im not a new guy to archery either. I know more about archery than most and the course was great. The way I see it the only way to get rid of the people we always complain about is to implement this course. Resources are thin, we need to weed out the umdesirables and strengthen the bowhunting herd.
Who is going to be the judge and jury on this? Seems rather discriminatory to me and I think it could end up being to subjective.
orca what i meant by it would weed out the lazy ones who have no business being in the woods with a bow I didn't mean because of a failure rate in the class. The test is common sense stuff and if you pay attention you will pass. I meant that like oneezreiter said the ones who are too lazy to take the time to be safe and responsible with their bow are not going to take the time to take the class. Hence they will self eliminate by choosing not to take the class.
Lazy hunters take hunters ed because they have to in order to hunt period. The lazy ones will not take this course because if they are too lazy to take the time to practise etc they won't take tje time to take the course. Instead they will say screw it im hunting with a gun.
Great. Now instead we will have more lazy hunters with the capability to reload faster and shoot farther. :mgun: :yike: We need to make a new smiley with a guy running for the hills. :chuckle:
But I understand what you are saying and the dilemma, especially if the guy up in Winthrop dispatched three deer with arrows in them. Not quite sure what the solution is, but throwing around ideas does not hurt (YET).
Post by: Special T on September 07, 2011, 10:42:50 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 07, 2011, 11:04:27 AM
Silver Arrow Bowmen in Mount Vernon Will be offering a course that satisfies the BH education requirements for other states... I don't like thed idea of a requirement but it could be a great tool for archery clubs to promote themselves. :twocents:
I think this would be excellent for more clubs to do. Proactive hunters improving their image is a real good thing.
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 07, 2011, 11:06:06 AM
Given that I know Goldeneye's source, I'd say that the numbers are likely accurate. Person is not prone to exageration nor are they anti-hunting.
That's too bad. The papers will get hold of this one. The debate we're having here may well be a moot point with more incidents like this.
Post by: Special T on September 07, 2011, 11:23:55 AM
Post by: 724wd on September 07, 2011, 11:35:27 AM
Not to stir things up or anything but I just got done talking to a friend that's a long time resident of Winthrop who has property over there. He told me this morning that so far this week the city has had to destroy 3 deer that were wandering around town with arrows hanging out of them. I believe an education course could not of hurt for the individuals who shot these arrows. Not to mention the damage it does to the public image of hunters.
who says it was 'slob' bowhunters that shot these deer? could it not have been a gust of wind or unseen branch that deflected an arrow? or an animal that jumps the string? S#!t happens to the best of us. not all wounded and unrecovered deer are the result of an unethical or untrained hunter. and having family in the area (Twisp/Carlton) there are so many deer in and around town, shooting one close to city limits may result in a wounded deer seeking shelter in perceived safer surroundings.
NO MANDATORY COURSE. NO MORE UNNEEDED REGULATIONS.
Post by: runamuk on September 07, 2011, 11:39:21 AM
Post by: Nilehunter on September 07, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
I think the class should be an option for someone who wants to better
Themself. This is the additude of a person who will acctually benefit from it.
You cant learn patience, ethics, skill, self control, or any behavior from a class.
It just seems like a waste of resources to make it mandatory.
:tup:
Great way to look at it!
Post by: jackmaster on September 08, 2011, 06:51:36 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 08, 2011, 07:27:08 AM
Believe what you like. It was not 3 at one time. It's a total of 3 this week in the town of Winthrop. I'm just passing on what I was told by him.
Like I said Golden, I'm absolutely not questioning your word, and from what others have posted since, it sounds like it happened. When I first read your post I did think you were saying all at one time. No matter, it's still not a pretty picture for bow hunting. Thanks.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on September 08, 2011, 07:43:00 AM
Post by: ghosthunter on September 08, 2011, 08:22:43 AM
But most folks on this forum want less regulation and having a mandatory class will create that.
What you see in all hunting is what you see on the street every day.
No consideration for animals,land owners, general public, others. We live in a I want it now world. And I want it any way I can get it. That is the frame of mind out there and no class will change it.
As soon as a student walks out the door they are at the mercy of the person they hunt with for good or bad.
Than you have the folks who think a class is a waste of time. And you failed there kid because you are a ass wipe who spends 2 nights a week for 3 weeks after working all day,eating dinner at 9:30 pm and spending coutless hours moving chairs and tables around just so you can fail their kid. Really?
A class will not solve the problem. A class may regulate the number of hunters in the woods? :twocents:
Post by: Snapshot on September 08, 2011, 08:49:49 AM
Silver Arrow Bowmen in Mount Vernon Will be offering a course that satisfies the BH education requirements for other states... I don't like the idea of a requirement but it could be a great tool for archery clubs to promote themselves. :twocents:
I think this would be excellent for more clubs to do. Proactive hunters improving their image is a real good thing.
Yes, working to improve our image is a great thing; but very few seem to care enough to do anything about it.
Unless Bowhunter Ed were mandated the number of people who would participate would not amount to a drop in the bucket. There are about 25,000 archery deer tags sold each year; how may of those tag holders have anything to do with a club where they might get exposed to the idea of taking a class? 10%? Maybe 15%?
Post by: Snapshot on September 08, 2011, 08:53:07 AM
... What you see in all hunting is what you see on the street every day.
No consideration for animals, land owners, general public, others. We live in a I want it now world. And I want it any way I can get it. That is the frame of mind out there ...
Yep, therein lies the problem...
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 08, 2011, 08:56:12 AM
... What you see in all hunting is what you see on the street every day.
No consideration for animals, land owners, general public, others. We live in a I want it now world. And I want it any way I can get it. That is the frame of mind out there ...
Yep, therein lies the problem...
Maybe in all hunting, but not in all hunters. That's the whole point here for this thread. Do we think that taking a stand for higher ethics and skill can shed a more favorable light on bow hunting? Or, in doing so, are we just setting ourselves up for more regulation and less opportunity?
Post by: Snapshot on September 08, 2011, 08:58:25 AM
And I think we must make that stand or else the opportunity will be one day stripped from all of us.
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 08, 2011, 08:59:02 AM
Post by: AKBowman on September 08, 2011, 11:59:54 AM
In AK the AK Bowhunters Association worked with the ADF&G to create both draw and registration permits where you have to have passed the bowhunters proficiency test (you have to pass the class before taking the proficiency test) in order to draw or register the permit.
I KNOW this state could learn a LOT by looking at the relationship that the AK Bowhunters Association and the ADF&G have and the accomplishments that they have achieved together for the BETTER opportunity of all hunters NOT necessarily just looking at their pocket book like it seems the WDFW does so often.
Below are many of the hunts proposed and passed by the ABA that may require the bowhunters proficiency card to participate in;
ABA's Achievements
Since it's beginning in 1970, the Alaskan Bowhunters Association has actively promoted the interests of its members through representation and public education. It has supported bowhunting proposals, hunting opportunities in general, equal opportunity subsistence, predator control, the Fish & Wildlife Safeguard program and the Hunters for Hunger program. Over the club's 29 years it has become increasingly recognized as a significant group among Alaska's outdoor community. This factor which will be of great importance to Alaska's hunters in the coming years as hunting seasons and hunting's very existence is threatened more and more.
The ABA has also made efforts to improve bowhunter's public image through bowhunter education programs, archery demonstrations, offering rewards for game violations, supporting youth archery camps, participating in the Adopt-a-Highway and Adopt-a-Trail programs, and a variety of cash donations. Donations from the ABA have been directed toward legislation, education, wildlife management and enhancement and support of outdoor clubs. The ABA has also held yearly archery shoots to help consolidate all archers/bowhunters in the state so they can work together for common goals.
The ABA has increasingly directed its efforts towards monitoring legislative issues in Alaska which deal with bowhunting, general hunting and general outdoor activities and passing on this information to its members. The club has been more and more instrumental in gathering support for these issues by providing this type of information to its members. As early as 1973 the club made bowhunting proposals to the Alaska Board of Game. One of these proposals require a minimum 45lb draw weight for bows used for big game hunting was the first bowhunting regulation to be passed in Alaska. Since that time the ABA has either made or supported dozens of bowhunting-related proposals in Alaska, which benefit bowhunters. ABA's reputation for supporting proposals on the basis of biological management, conservation, increase in recreational use and public safety reasons has brought the club the respect of the state's board of game. Some of these proposals the ABA has either supported or written itself and which were passed into law or regulations are:
1982:
Proposed to make black bear baiting again legal for all hunting purposes.
1982
Proposed Anchorage Management Area archery moose hunt.
1982
Proposed Fairbanks Management Area archery moose hunt.
1982
Proposed Fort Richardson archery moose hunt.
1983
Proposed archery moose hunts in Eagle River and Eklutna drainages.
1986
Proposed that crossbows only be legal hunting weapons where firearms are allowed-not in bowhunting seasons or areas.
1986,87,93 & 94
Successfully opposed anti-black bear baiting proposals.
1988
Proposed first early-season archery-only hunt in Alaska on Kenai National Moose Range.
1988
Proposed Eklutna Management Areas archery sheep hunt.
1988
Proposed October archery sheep hunt in Chugach State Park.
1988
Proposed Twentymile River archery goat hunt.
1988
Proposed Eklutna Management Area open to black bear hunting for all IBEP-qualified archers with no registration required.
1988
Proposed Eklutna Management Area open for small game hunting to archers.
1988
Supported retaining bear baiting, a hunter harassment bill, and a recreational river designation to ensure they would remain open to hunting.
1989
Proposed Fairbanks Management Area archery moose seasons for both fall and winter.
1990
Proposed Elmendorf Air Force Base and Peters Creek archery moose hunts.
1990
Proposed 15 day extensions for bear baiting in Game Management Unit 20.
1991
Proposed that all archery-only areas and seasons be limited to those bowhunters with bowhunter education certification.
1995
Proposed Mat-Su Valley early archery moose hunt.
1996
Proposed Palmer-Wasilla Management Area open to bowhunting (as well as shotguns and muzzleloaders) for big game.
1999
Proposed archery goat hunt for Juneau area.
1999
Proposed archery elk hunt on Etolin Island.
1999
Proposed early-season archery-only moose hunt on Kenai Peninsula.
1999
Proposed additional archery permits in Eklutna drainage for sheep.
1999
Proposed expanding open area in GMU 14C plus additional permits for late archery sheep hunt.
1999
Proposed lengthening archery moose season in Eklutna drainages.
1999
Proposed lengthening black bear baiting season in GMU 16B.
2000
Successfully lobbied for dramatic change in legalized archery equipment.
Post by: 724wd on September 08, 2011, 12:12:04 PM
Do we think that taking a stand for higher ethics and skill can shed a more favorable light on bow hunting? Or, in doing so, are we just setting ourselves up for more regulation and less opportunity?
Who is the class going to impress? in who's light will bowhunting be more favorable? the majority of the population has no opinion on bowhunting. they never think about it and never pay attention to it. You won't change a single anti-hunters mind.
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 08, 2011, 12:25:39 PM
Do we think that taking a stand for higher ethics and skill can shed a more favorable light on bow hunting? Or, in doing so, are we just setting ourselves up for more regulation and less opportunity?
Who is the class going to impress? in who's light will bowhunting be more favorable? the majority of the population has no opinion on bowhunting. they never think about it and never pay attention to it. You won't change a single anti-hunters mind.
Just to ask, do you feel the same way about hunter's ed in general?
I'm personally not looking to impress anyone. I'd take the course just to see if it had anything new to offer me. That's why I took the Master Hunter's course, and it offered me new and different perspectives on hunting. Many who've taken the bow hunter's courses in ID and MT relate like experiences and have stated it's a worthwhile course from which they gained benefit.
As far as non-hunters (not anti-hunters), if they see a picture in the local paper of a deer with an arrow sticking out of its jaw, they might become an anti-hunter. If they find out archers are being proactive and taking this course to improve their sport, they may not be swayed so easily. Remember that 93% of the population doesn't hunt here in WA. Good or bad press can influence their votes regarding our favorite pastime, as it did with hound and bait hunting in 1996 when that 93% voted against us and made it illegal. My own opinion is that anything we can do to improve our image in the eyes of this 93% should be at the very least examined, as we're doing in discussing this thread. My own :twocents:
Post by: 3Under on September 08, 2011, 12:33:47 PM
Do we think that taking a stand for higher ethics and skill can shed a more favorable light on bow hunting? Or, in doing so, are we just setting ourselves up for more regulation and less opportunity?
Who is the class going to impress? in who's light will bowhunting be more favorable? the majority of the population has no opinion on bowhunting. they never think about it and never pay attention to it. You won't change a single anti-hunters mind.
As far as taking a stand for higher ethics in bowhunting, it shouldn't be a matter of impressing anyone. I agree with your statement that you won't change the minds of anti-hunters, but the opinions of non-hunters will only remain neutral if negative images and stories of bowhunters are not publicized... Already mentioned in this thread is a negative story about three wounded deer running around Winthrop, a tourist hot spot full of non-hunters. Whether valid or not, the story is out there.
Furthermore, I think that raising the ethics bar is only a small piece of the pie here. More importantly, I think that a mandatory bowhunter course would produce bowhunters with better knowledge of their gear and capabilities, as well as reaffirm safe handling practices that are only touched on in basic hunter's ed. i.e. walking around with an arrow nocked - I've mentioned this before, but I am truly amazed at the number of hunters I run into walking down the trail with an arrow on the string.
Post by: Snapshot on September 08, 2011, 01:10:06 PM
Post by: 724wd on September 08, 2011, 01:12:07 PM
Just to ask, do you feel the same way about hunter's ed in general?
I think hunters education is a great requirement. But i am not in favor of additional MANDATORY bow hunters courses.
I'm personally not looking to impress anyone. I'd take the course just to see if it had anything new to offer me. That's why I took the Master Hunter's course, and it offered me new and different perspectives on hunting. Many who've taken the bow hunter's courses in ID and MT relate like experiences and have stated it's a worthwhile course from which they gained benefit.
But we need to impress people. we need to make an impact of the 93% of the population that doesn't bow hunt. I'm just not convinced a mandatory class will make any impact on the non-hunting public. And i'm in favor of bow hunter courses! again, just not mandatory classes. :tup:
As far as non-hunters (not anti-hunters), if they see a picture in the local paper of a deer with an arrow sticking out of its jaw, they might become an anti-hunter. If they find out archers are being proactive and taking this course to improve their sport, they may not be swayed so easily. Remember that 93% of the population doesn't hunt here in WA. Good or bad press can influence their votes regarding our favorite pastime, as it did with hound and bait hunting in 1996 when that 93% voted against us and made it illegal. My own opinion is that anything we can do to improve our image in the eyes of this 93% should be at the very least examined, as we're doing in discussing this thread. My own :twocents:
I agree anything we do to improve our public image is VERY important and i suggest that the WSAA and other archery organizations be proactive in putting together bow hunting courses and publicizing the heck out of them. alert the news via prepared press releases. we have to put the message out in front of the people or they'll never hear about it. we have to be loud like the antis are. get out in front of the public. alert the population that these classes are offered and why, and that the bow hunters themselves are promoting it.
If it's made mandatory at the state level, who will get the credit for implementing it? my money's on the government. i see people assuming that bow hunters have such poor ethics that the state had to implement classes! :yike: think how the anti groups will spin it.
if there IS a mandatory class and incidences of badly shot deer being viewed by the public don't stop (which they won't, because a twig deflecting an arrow or a deer moving at the last second will never end), how will bowhunters be viewed then? the antis will have a field day! "LOOK! they have bow hunting classes and there are still slob hunters shooting pet deer in town in the neck!"
i dont think a class will change the attitude of a person that thinks it's perfectly fine to take 100 yard shots with a bow. it will take the archery organizations in the state encouraging membership and promoting sound archery practices. and that goes for all methods of hunting, as well! :twocents:
Post by: 3Under on September 08, 2011, 01:38:48 PM
...not to mention a guy who has his compound at full draw, pointing it into a clump of trees as he walks up to it because he hears what turns out to be another hunter with an elk call inside the clump of trees.
Funny you mention that (not really funny, but I have a story...), I ran across a guy hunting in 560 last year and asked him how he was doing. He excitedly told me about getting into elk earlier that morning and being at full draw twice because he "heard something coming towards him" If my jaw hadn't dropped by then, it hit the ground when he told me he blew it on one of those elk because he bumped his release accidentally and shot an arrow into the dirt. I then asked him which way he was headed, and took off in the opposite direction.
By the way, he also mentioned that it was his first year bowhunting.
Post by: bobcat on September 08, 2011, 01:42:33 PM
Quote
I then asked him which way he was headed, and took off in the opposite direction.
:chuckle:
Post by: colockumelk on September 08, 2011, 09:11:37 PM
I agree with AKBOWMAN at the very least there should be incentives for taking the course.
Post by: BurleyDog on September 08, 2011, 09:34:59 PM
The bottom line is this course would weed out the riff raff amongst our ranks. We would police our own. The woods would be less crowded. Thus creating more opportunity. I don't see how having to take a course would reduce our opportunities. I am not about reducing opportunity but I am for making our comunity better. A class would do this.
I agree with AKBOWMAN at the very least there should be incentives for taking the course.
I seriously disagree with you. Our goal as sportsman should be to bring people into our group not weed people out.
Our ranks are diminishing at an alarming rate every year and with it our political strength. There were more hunters in the woods in the "good ol days" and people were hammering the animals back then.
The commercialization of hunting and focus on antlers is one MAJOR cause of nonsense in young hunters. Many of these people just need to grow up and exposure to true sportsmen. These are the yahoos flinging arrows around needlessly.
Bottomline is that many of us have limited time to take off for another mandatory class and this will PREVENT many of us from bowhunting.... mandatory class is a terrible idea. We are our own worst enemies watch what you wish for!
Post by: Special T on September 09, 2011, 09:16:30 AM
"WSAA and other archery organizations be proactive in putting together bow hunting courses and publicizing the heck out of them. alert the news via prepared press releases. we have to put the message out in front of the people or they'll never hear about it. we have to be loud like the antis are. get out in front of the public. alert the population that these classes are offered and why, and that the bow hunters themselves are promoting it." 724wd
When businesses find out that public opinion is going to change they try and get out in front of it. It is easier to influence a POSITIVE change in archery if it is left up to thoughtful archers in the WSAA or other bowhunting groups than some state bureaucrat. :twocents:
Post by: Machias on September 09, 2011, 09:38:37 AM
The bottom line is this course would weed out the riff raff amongst our ranks. We would police our own. The woods would be less crowded. Thus creating more opportunity. I don't see how having to take a course would reduce our opportunities. I am not about reducing opportunity but I am for making our comunity better. A class would do this.
I agree with AKBOWMAN at the very least there should be incentives for taking the course.
One of the rare times I disagree with you. The course would not, in my opinion, change a thing out in the woods.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on September 09, 2011, 09:54:41 AM
:chuckle: :chuckle: Find a big tree and DO NOT MOVE :chuckle: :o...not to mention a guy who has his compound at full draw, pointing it into a clump of trees as he walks up to it because he hears what turns out to be another hunter with an elk call inside the clump of trees.
Funny you mention that (not really funny, but I have a story...), I ran across a guy hunting in 560 last year and asked him how he was doing. He excitedly told me about getting into elk earlier that morning and being at full draw twice because he "heard something coming towards him" If my jaw hadn't dropped by then, it hit the ground when he told me he blew it on one of those elk because he bumped his release accidentally and shot an arrow into the dirt. I then asked him which way he was headed, and took off in the opposite direction.
By the way, he also mentioned that it was his first year bowhunting.
Post by: runamuk on September 09, 2011, 10:44:56 AM
The bottom line is this course would weed out the riff raff amongst our ranks. We would police our own. The woods would be less crowded. Thus creating more opportunity. I don't see how having to take a course would reduce our opportunities. I am not about reducing opportunity but I am for making our comunity better. A class would do this.
I agree with AKBOWMAN at the very least there should be incentives for taking the course.
One of the rare times I disagree with you. The course would not, in my opinion, change a thing out in the woods.
I agree.....we have hunters ed now does this help things out in the woods? :dunno: I am all for education and will take the bow class eventually just because I want to....making it mandatory would streamline things with other states that require it....
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 09, 2011, 10:56:57 AM
Post by: 724wd on September 09, 2011, 12:24:45 PM
It's like a giant pinata with deer and elk as the candy, and lots of armed people wanting that candy.
excellent analogy! :tup:
Post by: Machias on September 09, 2011, 12:40:08 PM
I think for the most part the class itself wouldn't change too many things in the woods. I think that a large number of the people that are doing unethical things in the woods now do so because they feel pressured to because of the way the hunting is set up. You cram lots of people into a small area with a small time window and a limited resource, and for many it becomes competition against other hunters and no longer competing with oneself or the animal. It's like a giant pinata with deer and elk as the candy, and lots of armed people wanting that candy.
I think that's part of it, I think it has to do with alot of factors though.
Post by: seth30 on September 11, 2011, 08:54:14 PM
The bottom line is this course would weed out the riff raff amongst our ranks. We would police our own. The woods would be less crowded. Thus creating more opportunity. I don't see how having to take a course would reduce our opportunities. I am not about reducing opportunity but I am for making our comunity better. A class would do this.Kind of off subject, but with Motorcycles if you tace the BRC (basic Riders Course) your insurance is not as much, and there is no driven test at the DMV. Thy have proven time and time again that the course is a proven tool that saves lives. If there was a class like that for bow hunters that was volunterr only and had a incentive like a discoutened tag for class graduates, I think it would create a postive influence to not only save a few bucks but create a safer and smarter bow hunter.
I agree with AKBOWMAN at the very least there should be incentives for taking the course.
Post by: fair-chase on September 11, 2011, 09:19:13 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on September 11, 2011, 09:25:26 PM
Post by: RadSav on September 11, 2011, 09:32:16 PM
Have gun laws stopped criminals from using them? No, they usually just effect those of us who are law abiding citizens.
No proof that any more animals are lost due to bowhunting than rifle or muzzy. Just harder to see a bullet that went a stray than an arrow. However, there is definitive proof that an animal hit poorly with an arrow has a greater chance of survival than one shot poorly with a high velocity projectile.
Post by: buckfvr on September 13, 2011, 09:51:41 AM
Post by: 724wd on September 14, 2011, 08:36:24 AM
with the way rules change in this state, I think refresher courses would be beneficial. archery issues could be rolled into one of these refreshers, allowing the entire hunting population to benefit from increased awareness of various hunting related issues for all weapons. It would need to be fairly inexpensive, fairly quick (one day?) and widely available. Cover safe handling, regulations and encourage responsible hunting (know your limits for shooting, follow up on every shot, etc). It's not a full blown hunters ed class, just a brush-up.
Post by: BoomWhop on September 15, 2011, 09:18:24 PM
Post by: rdale14 on September 15, 2011, 09:45:57 PM
Post by: starr on September 16, 2011, 10:35:20 AM
That said, I think a MANDANTORY course is a little far. Maybe if you make it optional but take a couple of bucks off of each archery tag if you have the card. I mean really lets say you pay $40 for the optional course but save $4 off each tag for life, $8 a year w/in 5 years its more than paid for its self and i see people on here 15-50 years of experiance.
My other thought would be give the option of just walking in and taking a 50 or 100 question test over archery and safety and ethics that way some of you old schoolers that have years of experience on me could walk in and walk out in 30-45 min. and something like an 8 hr for the rest of us that dont know. The other thing I think would be good with this is every 3-5 years take 5-10 Q test basically over the regs to make sure that people know what the regs CURRENTLY say and then you know that people are still make sure to read the rules.
I say all this cause I know there are probably a couple things that I do that some of you would just say WTF if you saw and I just never learned. Do i want to go to a MANDANTORY course, hell no just like the rest of you I got better things to do with my days. buuttt if it would save me about $10 off of my tags each year, it would be a lot more tempting.
Post by: Johnb317 on September 16, 2011, 02:16:04 PM
And hitting the x at 50 in a controlled situation doesn't mean squat in a pressure situation.
I've hunted with guys who know better, but read Dunn's book and feel they can shoot at a moving animal. Sigh.
As for rifles vs. bows.... I think twice before loosing a 10 dollar 'round'....
Appreciation for wildlife and ethics aren't going to be learned in a quicky class or by passing a test. We need to teach or children and talk around the camp.
When I hunt or talk hunting I know I need to represent all hunters so non-hunters understand and realize the value of hunting in the United States.
-off my soap box-
Post by: Little Dave on September 16, 2011, 05:14:26 PM
Post by: Snapshot on September 18, 2011, 09:11:20 PM
No amount of preaching can instill ethics or morals into those that have none to begin with. :twocents:
A bowhunter education class wouldn't be, couldn't be, instilling ethics or morals; to think that the purpose would be to try to do so is wrong. That being said, some educators, the best I think, will include their personal thoughts on what they feel is right or wrong in the hunting woods. If for no other reason but to make the students think about it for a moment.
But what a class CAN do is provide information that is vitally important to being a good bowhunter. Some facets were mentioned already; bloodtrailing, anatomy of the various game animals, shot placement, how long to wait after the shot and how that depends largely on the shot placement, equipment maintenance and safe handling, treestand safety, accepting personal limitations in ability.
All of that information, if properly introduced to everyone who wants to be a bowhunter would only make them better bowhunters, and make them more likely to impress on others, whether around the campfire or at work or at the tavern, that they are thoughtful, conscientious, educated bowhunters. By having educated bowhunters the sport of bowhunting can't help but benefit.
Post by: 724wd on September 19, 2011, 07:16:56 AM
A bowhunter education class wouldn't be, couldn't be, instilling ethics or morals; to think that the purpose would be to try to do so is wrong. That being said, some educators, the best I think, will include their personal thoughts on what they feel is right or wrong in the hunting woods. If for no other reason but to make the students think about it for a moment.
But what a class CAN do is provide information that is vitally important to being a good bowhunter. Some facets were mentioned already; bloodtrailing, anatomy of the various game animals, shot placement, how long to wait after the shot and how that depends largely on the shot placement, equipment maintenance and safe handling, treestand safety, accepting personal limitations in ability.
All of that information, if properly introduced to everyone who wants to be a bowhunter would only make them better bowhunters, and make them more likely to impress on others, whether around the campfire or at work or at the tavern, that they are thoughtful, conscientious, educated bowhunters. By having educated bowhunters the sport of bowhunting can't help but benefit.
all of that is great information to give out in hunting education classes, but the issue here is MANDATORY. that's where i fall off the wagon and resist. :tup:
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on September 19, 2011, 02:31:32 PM
Post by: boneaddict on September 19, 2011, 03:18:59 PM
Post by: 724wd on September 22, 2011, 12:36:34 PM
damn, i hate straddling fences! puts my tender bits in jeopardy! :yike:
heath
Post by: Elkrunner on September 22, 2011, 01:54:07 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 22, 2011, 02:43:35 PM
I am officially conflicted now. i think additional hoops and fees are major BS, but the discussion Poor excuse for a bow hunter in the "Deer Hunting" section has me thinking a lot more drilling of responsible bowhunting practices into the heads of those taking hunters safety courses are probably called for. and i would be in favor of periodic refresher courses to renew your certificate.
damn, i hate straddling fences! puts my tender bits in jeopardy! :yike:
heath
People like those in that video will take the course because they have to and continue to hunt the way they do. Having said that, I personally feel that young hunters and conscientious adult hunters would gain useful knowledge from such a program. I'm also tending toward a volunteer program. The conscientious would attend and these hosers and the like would not. Excluding them would make the experience more valuable for the rest.
Post by: 724wd on September 22, 2011, 04:39:53 PM
Post by: MACNMADDY on September 26, 2011, 07:08:20 PM
Post by: 42 Willys on September 30, 2011, 11:47:03 AM
Just makes sense to take the class, be a better hunter, do it at your convienience and be done with it.
I took it years ago at Northwest Archery in Burien, fun class.
Making it mandatory is the issue....not a bad idea.