Post by: bearpaw on September 12, 2011, 01:55:33 PM
Excellent testimony by David Allen, RMEF as well as many others!
http://cryingwolfmovie.com/ (http://cryingwolfmovie.com/)
Post by: FC on September 12, 2011, 03:19:02 PM
Post by: runniNgunnin on September 12, 2011, 03:41:11 PM
Post by: firefighter4607 on September 12, 2011, 03:59:48 PM
Did you see that Washington Wolves :tree1: released some video on the OSU biologist Bill Ripple discusses the importance of wolves on ecosystems.
Post by: remington300mag on September 12, 2011, 04:42:29 PM
Sorry to sound like such a gloom and doom type of person.....but mark my words.....Until we stand up TOGETHER....as ONE voice.... they will keep taking away!! There isn't going to be anything left for our kids or grand kids.....and they will only have us to blame for not standing up for ourselves!! The law makers and government agencies are not going to help..... Sooner or later it is going to be up to us.....what are we going to do?? Allow them to take it all away with their B.S......or stand up for ourselves??? Doing things the politically correct way is not...and will not work....Sad to say but it hasn't worked so far!
Wolves is only one of the issues that I am speaking of.......but we have to start somewhere!
Post by: silverdalesauer on September 12, 2011, 10:28:42 PM
It seems like this problem is so overwhelming, how can we make a difference. It's as if hunters across the nation need to start our own "Revolution."
Good video. As a Christian, I wish more Christians were more in tune to what's really happening to the earth given to us by our Creator.
Post by: Swannytheswan on September 13, 2011, 12:09:19 AM
Post by: Swannytheswan on September 13, 2011, 12:31:38 AM
http://vimeo.com/28939194 (http://vimeo.com/28939194)
Post by: Cougeyes on September 13, 2011, 05:49:46 AM
Post by: firefighter4607 on September 13, 2011, 01:40:46 PM
Watched it, it was alright. Clearly one-sided but still had great information, I always like to hear both sides of any debate. Although I'm not sure on the credibility of a lot of the numbers and percentages some of the local people were throwing out, but clearly wolves have had their impact in and around Yellowstone and MT with the decrease in elk numbers.
I don't think you will ever find one video that is both pro and con wolves. I would disagree with you on the credibility of the ranchers on that video. Wolves don't just eat elk and deer, since they are growing in numbers they will find what ever animal is around to eat. You should google livestock attacks. You will find many documents of wolf killings and the financial loss of one calf could be $400+. They have also had cattle that have lost weight do to them running and being on edge while they are on the grazing lands. Here is one site that I like with livestock attacks and figures it is very graphic. The wolves just don't affect the wild animals they also affect the ranchers way of life.
http://washingtonwolf.info/livestock_attacks.html (http://washingtonwolf.info/livestock_attacks.html)
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 13, 2011, 05:32:39 PM
Very good and convincing explanation of the pressures that wolves are putting on rural communities, brings up some questions about how the process was started and funded, was the EIS process subverted, and is the endangered species status of wolves legitimate? Also brings up how man has been part of the ecosystem ever since the Bering Straight was crossed.
The film does falsely imply that most environmentalists believe that man is distinct from the ecosystem at large, something that has faded over the last thirty years. For more writing by mainstream naturalists regarding the part of man in the ecosystem one could read the works of Stephen Pyne or Alston Chase.
Where the filmmaker interviews former professor Stephen Vantessel, the message goes off topic and becomes a rambling and poorly supported diatribe against godless Commies who have sinfully forsaken God to worship Mother Earth. Somehow, the wolf issue becomes a part of God's dominion and the question becomes one of God v. Wolves None of this serves the purpose of educating the general public about wolf reintroduction, and marginalizes the entire film. Which is a pity, because the pro-wolf media certainly knows how to produce a mainstream friendly message.
Post by: mulehunter on September 13, 2011, 07:31:08 PM
Mulehunter
Post by: Cougeyes on September 13, 2011, 07:49:18 PM
I would disagree with you on the credibility of the ranchers on that video.
/livestock_attacks.html[/url]
Sorry I wasn't implying the ranchers' numbers weren't credible. A few times they interviewed local business owners that I thought threw out some crazy stats. Ranchers surely know or have a really good estimate on the number of lost livestock to predators and their loss can way heavily on their livelihood.
Post by: bearpaw on September 14, 2011, 04:47:03 PM
A very fine effort by a young film maker, and a very good 45 minute documentary. It is only marred by the fact that it is 60 minutes long.
Very good and convincing explanation of the pressures that wolves are putting on rural communities, brings up some questions about how the process was started and funded, was the EIS process subverted, and is the endangered species status of wolves legitimate? Also brings up how man has been part of the ecosystem ever since the Bering Straight was crossed.
The film does falsely imply that most environmentalists believe that man is distinct from the ecosystem at large, something that has faded over the last thirty years. For more writing by mainstream naturalists regarding the part of man in the ecosystem one could read the works of Stephen Pyne or Alston Chase.
Where the filmmaker interviews former professor Stephen Vantessel, the message goes off topic and becomes a rambling and poorly supported diatribe against godless Commies who have sinfully forsaken God to worship Mother Earth. Somehow, the wolf issue becomes a part of God's dominion and the question becomes one of God v. Wolves None of this serves the purpose of educating the general public about wolf reintroduction, and marginalizes the entire film. Which is a pity, because the pro-wolf media certainly knows how to produce a mainstream friendly message.
I think it was his first big effort and considering that, I thought very well done. No doubt any filmaker inserts his "flavor" into his work. I didn't have any problem with a little religion inserted, that is also part of life here in the USA.
silverdalesauer seemed to like it for the religous aspect! :dunno:
Post by: Alan K on September 14, 2011, 06:55:43 PM
And yes, I'm an atheist, but have no problem with people having faith in whatever they choose to. You've got to understand however, that decisions with respect to policy in the modern world are based overwhelmingly on SCIENCE and FACTS, which faith lacks. Throw that in there, and while it depicts the heritage, culture, and mindset of the locals, it also undermines their credibility in the eyes of those who we're trying to convert.
Again, I thought it was good, and was promising there for the first 75% or so to be a real fact based documentary that had the potential to educate those in favor of wolves of their real world destruction and the deceit by which they were introduced. I have already sent it to most of my family to watch, and am continuing to send links to basically everyone in my e-mail.
Thanks for sharing the link! :tup:
Post by: TONTO on September 14, 2011, 08:10:47 PM
Quote
policy in the modern world are based overwhelmingly on SCIENCE and FACTS
Religious or not, Fact: man has dominion over the animals, and science has proven he has held this status for a very long time. To deny man as part of any eco system goes against both standards.
Post by: Alan K on September 14, 2011, 08:42:07 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 15, 2011, 06:24:22 AM
I agree completely with that, and I would bet you that the majority of environmentalists and biologists view man as a huge part of the ecosystem probably the largest part. When they were citing some quotes of some whack jobs speaking of the contrary, we were into the part of the documentary that that the extreme anti-wolf was showing through. :chuckle:
Scientists know that man is part of the ecosystem, and not merely as a huge "800 pound gorilla" that only destroys things. Look at wildfire science, it is realized that the Indians set prescriptive fires and practiced a very high level of silvaculture hundreds (thousands?) of years ago.
There are scientists who do take a contrary view of the current wolf plans, or at the least are much more cautious about the wolves.It is too bad the film maker did not seek these people out, but instead relied on Dr. Vantessel for academic credence. We are never told what department Vantessel formerly taught in. Since he has a Doctorate in Theology, we may assume that he did not teach in Biology, Forestry or Environmental Studies.
There are many individuals on both sides of the wolf issue who are very devoutly religious. To refer to others as hapless dupes of Godless Gaia worshiping new-age commies is a mistake. It is insulting, turns a secular problem into one of belief and marginalizes the anti-wolf viewpoint.
Post by: jrod on September 16, 2011, 07:36:51 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on September 16, 2011, 08:12:23 PM
Post by: runamuk on September 16, 2011, 09:34:11 PM
Now for the dont likes...it was all good until the end where it went all god squad bible pushing and just made it something I cant share with most my cirle of people without a giant WARNING CHRISTIAN CONTENT AHEAD AND POSSIBLE BIBLE PUSHING insert flashy lights etc and sadly that in and of itself is enough for a good documentary to lose all credence with "my people".... my people being a lot of people who are liberal minded but not anti hunter anti meat anti ranching but definitely need a real damn good reason to step off the fence and a big dose of god aint it :dunno:
other than that I did like the whole thing I simply shut it off when it started preaching and singing at me :)
Post by: Killercolin on September 17, 2011, 03:16:46 PM
Post by: scudmaster on September 18, 2011, 07:32:38 PM
A very fine effort by a young film maker, and a very good 45 minute documentary. It is only marred by the fact that it is 60 minutes long.
Very good and convincing explanation of the pressures that wolves are putting on rural communities, brings up some questions about how the process was started and funded, was the EIS process subverted, and is the endangered species status of wolves legitimate? Also brings up how man has been part of the ecosystem ever since the Bering Straight was crossed.
The film does falsely imply that most environmentalists believe that man is distinct from the ecosystem at large, something that has faded over the last thirty years. For more writing by mainstream naturalists regarding the part of man in the ecosystem one could read the works of Stephen Pyne or Alston Chase.
Where the filmmaker interviews former professor Stephen Vantessel, the message goes off topic and becomes a rambling and poorly supported diatribe against godless Commies who have sinfully forsaken God to worship Mother Earth. Somehow, the wolf issue becomes a part of God's dominion and the question becomes one of God v. Wolves None of this serves the purpose of educating the general public about wolf reintroduction, and marginalizes the entire film. Which is a pity, because the pro-wolf media certainly knows how to produce a mainstream friendly message.
Right on point. It was an excellent documentary with a reasonable presentation of the impacts of the wolf. Had great potential for wide spread acceptance until the religious aspect was brought up. While I don't disagree with the theological arguments, it limits the audience that this will appeal to.
Post by: villageidiot on September 19, 2011, 07:53:39 PM
Post by: runamuk on September 19, 2011, 07:56:29 PM
Don't forget there are two documentaries out very similiar. Scott Rockholm produced the first one called "Yellowstone is Dead". If you are turned off by God then watch his. It's very well done and I think has a few more facts in it since it's longer. If you have friends that you would like to see one and you think the religious part would turn them off then have them watch Scott Rockholms. Personally I like this one just a little better because of the scriptures that talk about mans dominion over animals. Mentioning God in it didn't turn me off one little bit. Both documentaries give a lot of good facts.
except rockholm told some of us we were idiots for not following his exact views so no thanks....
Post by: NWBREW on September 20, 2011, 03:07:50 AM
I'm not sure on the credibility of a lot of the numbers and percentages some of the local people were throwing out, but clearly wolves have had their impact in and around Yellowstone and MT with the decrease in elk numbers.
I think you would be appald at the real numbers and precenteges. Those numbers are huge. Even if you only put the numbers at half......still huge.
As for Rockholm, I agree he treated some people on here like crap but I can understand (I think) why it seems so desprate for him. This is a big deal. Look at what has happened in the last 8 years. Devestation not only to the elk herds but to a lot of ranchers and outfitters as well as other businesses. Now, add another 8 years on if nothing starts to happen fast to control this. It's bad now. How bad will it be then?
Think about it. Once game herds are down, businesses will start to suffer(resturants, motels, car rentals, etc.), the WDFW will lose money, which will be an obvious hard hit to the economy, more and higher taxes. If you don't think it can happen.......it already is in other states. The wolf does not play a part in my work or paycheck like it does for so many who counted on the game herds we the people were able to create. Although I may not agree 100% with rockholms people skills, I do see the need of urgency he tries so hard to get across. just my :twocents:
Oh, and everytime i see something like this or hear numbers (even if the real numbers are 30% less) It makes me sick that our government allows this to happen. 10 years.....what will it be like? >:(
Post by: Miles on September 20, 2011, 03:34:24 AM
Post by: whuppinstick on September 20, 2011, 05:39:25 AM
The religious talk in it brought it down a bit for me, but still good overall. Sure it's a part of life in the USA, but when you're publishing a documentary which I thought was pretty well unbiased and neutral as far as the facts go until the last quarter of it when it was obviously one sided, you can't bring faith into the discussion when you're trying to rationalize your argument with facts. It's counterproductive to the argument.
And yes, I'm an atheist, but have no problem with people having faith in whatever they choose to. You've got to understand however, that decisions with respect to policy in the modern world are based overwhelmingly on SCIENCE and FACTS, which faith lacks. Throw that in there, and while it depicts the heritage, culture, and mindset of the locals, it also undermines their credibility in the eyes of those who we're trying to convert.
Again, I thought it was good, and was promising there for the first 75% or so to be a real fact based documentary that had the potential to educate those in favor of wolves of their real world destruction and the deceit by which they were introduced. I have already sent it to most of my family to watch, and am continuing to send links to basically everyone in my e-mail.
Thanks for sharing the link! :tup:
Knocker of Rocks and Alan K, you said everything I took notes on except both of you said it much more eloquently! I'm also an atheist and so citing religious texts has no place in a documentary that simultaneously heavily weights its position on science and facts. I think he could have used some more objective sources (say, Ed Bangs), though getting an interview on film with him may be difficult. Also, a bit nitpicky, but I wish he had more stock footage of wolves than just the same couple of loops. :)
Post by: finnman on September 20, 2011, 10:54:59 PM
By the way, if anyone thinks that facts and science don't jive with the scriptures...you have not then read the evidence. It is all there in the Bible, you just have to give it a chance. Notice I didn't say Religion. Thats a whole nother issue.