Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: dylanb on September 21, 2011, 03:36:22 PM

Title: 22-250
Post by: dylanb on September 21, 2011, 03:36:22 PM: should the 22-250 be legal for deer and is it to light for deer.i know in idaho and oregon is but why not here
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: wreckerman5357 on September 21, 2011, 05:42:10 PM: I don't think any of the .22 centerfires should be legal for deer, I agree with the .24 caliber minimum. That said, a .22 centerfire will work with proper shot placement. The thing is that they are not reliable penetrators. There is no reason to hunt deer with a varmit gun. I cannot think of a single good reason reason why someone would want to hunt deer with a varmit caliber. That's my two cents on the matter.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: Biggerhammer on September 21, 2011, 05:49:15 PM: The 22-250 with the heavier bullets(Partitions/ bonded core) and the proper twist rate is a down right deadly deer cartridge. I have killed plenty of antelope with one. Hell, I have dropped some Antelope quicker at 350 yards with a 22-250 than I have mature mule deer at 200 yards with a .375 Ultra mag. Everyone one of them takes the hit different.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: wadu1 on September 21, 2011, 05:55:32 PM: I agree with wreckerman they do not have enough penetrating power. When they were legal in this State I saw two bucks hit hard and did not go down 1 with a .22-250 and the other with a .233. We tracked the two bucks for 3 days and never found them on public land they both went into tribal land that we could not hunt. Unfortunately I was not in a safe position to use my .243. The only deer taken that year was with an old Winchester 38-55. :twocents:
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: wreckerman5357 on September 21, 2011, 06:09:05 PM: What gets me is that if it is legal to shoot deer with a .22 centerfire, then people will decide "this thing should work on elk too". My dad has a great story from back in the day involving my aunt's ex-husband taking a .223 elk hunting. This genius emptied his rifle into a bull elk which then decided to charge this guy and my uncle. Those little bullets didn't even slow the sob down. The ordeal ended with my uncle shooting the poor beast in the chest with his '06. The animal took a couple rickety steps and died. To this day Wayne will tell you his .223s had done most of the work.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: Rooster1981 on September 21, 2011, 06:21:47 PM: I love shooting my 22-250.... at coyotes. I'm sure a 22-250 would kill a deer but I know for a fact what my 30-06 can do. If it were legal I would still use the old 06.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: Biggerhammer on September 21, 2011, 06:26:35 PM: Quote from: wadu1 on September 21, 2011, 05:55:32 PM
I agree with wreckerman they do not have enough penetrating power. When they were legal in this State I saw two bucks hit hard and did not go down 1 with a .22-250 and the other with a .233. We tracked the two bucks for 3 days and never found them on public land they both went into tribal land that we could not hunt. Unfortunately I was not in a safe position to use my .243. The only deer taken that year was with an old Winchester 38-55. :twocents:

Like I said, with the proper bullet and twist, it is a DEADLY deer cartridge. Feed a well capable rifle and scope combo CHIT fodder and your going to get CHIT results.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: GoldTip on September 21, 2011, 06:28:44 PM: I've seen a few deer killed in Montana with 22 centerfires, they work fine with proper bullet placement. Longest shot I ever saw taken at a deer, 700+ yards was with a 22-250 and the deer dropped literally in it's tracks. One of the biggest bulls I ever saw killed was up the south fork of the flathead and shot a single time with a 220 swift by a logger who only hunted with that gun. The 22 centerfires will do the job if bullet placement is good
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: GUHunter on September 21, 2011, 08:10:09 PM: I think a major issue with allowing 22 centerfires for big game is bullet choice (as has been stated). When you get into 24 cal centerfire cartridges, most off the shelf ammo you'll find at typical sporting goods retailers is designed for big game hunting. Drop down to any 22 cal cartridge and most are either FMJ or highly frangible varmint type bullets. The informed user can choose appropriate ammunition for deer hunting in 22 caliber weapons, but many hunters do not fit this classification. Many would buy the cheapest ammo in the shelf (likely varmint type) and go hunting. This is a recipe for lots of wounded animals. That's my theory on the matter.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: inchtowntracking on September 21, 2011, 08:23:25 PM: Shoot them in the head and there is plenty of penatration. Use my 22-250 to kill deer and my uncle has a .223 dpms ar15 that has killed its share of animals too. Shooting a deer in the side gets me an butt whoopin we are taught from a young age that a head shot is the only one to take. Grandpa used to chew us and tell us we wasted to much meat. We dont even use the 30-06 that every one else seems to shoot them with.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: maddog on September 21, 2011, 08:27:16 PM: In my opinion the 22-250 is more effective on deer size game than a .243. It may be the velocity, or the tumble of the bullet, I don't know what it is exactly, but if they were both leagal and I had to choose one I would definitely choose the 22-250. that being said, I use a .300 win mag just to make sure! :chuckle:
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: wreckerman5357 on September 21, 2011, 09:39:26 PM: Quote from: inchtowntracking on September 21, 2011, 08:23:25 PM
Shoot them in the head and there is plenty of penatration. Use my 22-250 to kill deer and my uncle has a .223 dpms ar15 that has killed its share of animals too. Shooting a deer in the side gets me an butt whoopin we are taught from a young age that a head shot is the only one to take. Grandpa used to chew us and tell us we wasted to much meat. We dont even use the 30-06 that every one else seems to shoot them with.

This is why a bigger rifle is better, the don't require a hunter to shoot a deer in the head to perform.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: 724wd on September 21, 2011, 11:40:41 PM: Quote from: GUHunter on September 21, 2011, 08:10:09 PM
I think a major issue with allowing 22 centerfires for big game is bullet choice (as has been stated). When you get into 24 cal centerfire cartridges, most off the shelf ammo you'll find at typical sporting goods retailers is designed for big game hunting. Drop down to any 22 cal cartridge and most are either FMJ or highly frangible varmint type bullets. The informed user can choose appropriate ammunition for deer hunting in 22 caliber weapons, but many hunters do not fit this classification. Many would buy the cheapest ammo in the shelf (likely varmint type) and go hunting. This is a recipe for lots of wounded animals. That's my theory on the matter.

:yeah:
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: carpsniperg2 on September 21, 2011, 11:44:42 PM: Paired with the right bullet the 22 centerfire rds are just fine for mid sized game: such as deer and lopes.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 21, 2011, 11:54:56 PM: I think it sucks that there has to be regs for what equipment we can/can't use (to some extent). Hate to see the good ones punished for the actions of the ones that ruin it. People should know when what equipment is suitable and the limitations. With that being said, if there was a way to prevent the 'wrong' use or at least most-then I'd say allow the .22 centerfires. I've seen plenty of animals taken with .222, .223, .22-250, and .220 Swift in other states. Mostly deer but a few preferred the .22-250 for elk. They did head/neck shots on the animals and they worked great. The ones not shot in the head/neck...well, long days tracking or loast animals.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: 724wd on September 22, 2011, 12:08:42 AM: are head/neck shots so much harder with larger caliber guns :dunno:? i hit a cow at the base of the skull with my 30/06 at 250 yards and she dropped in her tracks (jerked the trigger. was shooting for the shoulder :yike: ). not an ounce of wasted meat, and with the '06, if she had kept moving, body shots would probably have been more effective than a .22 caliber.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: wreckerman5357 on September 22, 2011, 08:08:38 AM: Quote from: JimmyHoffa on September 21, 2011, 11:54:56 PM
I think it sucks that there has to be regs for what equipment we can/can't use (to some extent). Hate to see the good ones punished for the actions of the ones that ruin it. People should know when what equipment is suitable and the limitations. With that being said, if there was a way to prevent the 'wrong' use or at least most-then I'd say allow the .22 centerfires. I've seen plenty of animals taken with .222, .223, .22-250, and .220 Swift in other states. Mostly deer but a few preferred the .22-250 for elk. They did head/neck shots on the animals and they worked great. The ones not shot in the head/neck...well, long days tracking or loast oanimals.

I do not endorse .22 centerfires for deer or elk hunting and would not use one. I do agree with you that we do not need laws prohibiting their use. A lot of the people that can't use them effectively can't use any rifle effectively.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: sirmissalot on September 22, 2011, 09:42:30 AM: The difference in a .22 caliber bullet, compared to a .24 caliber bullet; a .02 difference, has very little effect on terminal performance. A well placed .22 caliber bullet, will kill just as well as a .30 caliber bullet. The difference in my opinion is mainly penetration. A 100 grain bullet will penetrate better than a 50 grain bullet (provided they are both good weight retaining bullets), so a shot not placed so well, say quartering towards or away, needs a better penetrating bullet. Roy Weatherby did tests in Africa shooting guns like a 257 weatherby, vs 300 weatherby, vs 375 H&H. In many of the animals the smaller caliber guns outperformed the larger ones, he credited this to a higher velocity smaller bullet.

That being said, when I was younger and hunted with a 243 single shot, I think every deer and antelope I shot dropped in its tracks. I now shoot a 300 weatherby and can't remember an animal I have recently shot that dropped instantly. I shot a deer from under 20 yards a couple years ago with a 44 mag rifle, 300 grain bonded bullet, the deer died but didn't drop like I would have thought it would.

Not at all saying I think a 22-250 should be used for deer, let alone an elk. As everyone knows a well placed shot is much more important than bullet diameter.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: bobcat on September 22, 2011, 10:06:46 AM: A .25 Auto handgun with minimum 4 inch barrel is legal for deer, elk, and bear. So why not a 22-250 for deer?
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 22, 2011, 10:16:16 AM: From what I saw when skinning animals shot by .22 centerfires, there was a difference in terminal performance. The size/weight increase might not seem a big deal, but even if a rib/shoulder was hit with say an '06 the bullet still kept pretty much on a straight path. With the varmint guns, we'd find the bullet stuck in the spine or it had gone off on a different angle and came out the throat. With head/neck shots it didn't matter, but the body shots seemed to really alter the path of the little bullets. For animals larger than deer, like elk, the same thing was basically happening with even larger calibers like the .243 win. Most of the guys I knew that used the small guns did so because that was what they were used to. Their folks started them off hunting at an early age and needed a gun that wouldn't kick and cause them to flinch.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: demontang on September 22, 2011, 10:58:06 AM: My time with a 22 centerfire I would shoot a deer with one loaded with the partition or other well built bullet. I wouldn't use it on bear or elk etc, but if you can wack a cougar with one a deer shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: 724wd on September 22, 2011, 11:01:43 AM: Quote from: bobcat on September 22, 2011, 10:06:46 AM
A .25 Auto handgun with minimum 4 inch barrel is legal for deer, elk, and bear.

which is also dumb. why did they do away with the minimum energy requirements?
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: bobcat on September 22, 2011, 11:07:50 AM: Quote
which is also dumb. why did they do away with the minimum energy requirements?

Yes it is. They did away with all those rules a few years back when their goal was to simplify the regulations.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: demontang on September 22, 2011, 11:25:11 AM: I thought the same thing on handguns, but when was the last time you saw a 25 auto with a 4" barrel?
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: bobcat on September 22, 2011, 11:28:25 AM: Quote
I thought the same thing on handguns, but when was the last time you saw a 25 auto with a 4" barrel?
Yeah I know, there may not be such a thing, but the minimum is 24 caliber and a 4 inch barrel. How about a 38 Special with a 4 inch barrel? I know that combination exists and I wouldn't want to use it as my primary elk gun. :chuckle: (or a 9mm)
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: demontang on September 22, 2011, 12:11:32 PM: Lol yea my 45 acp has a 4" barrel don't think I would shoot an elk with that either.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: uplandhunter870 on September 22, 2011, 01:05:04 PM: i dont see why not. id rather physics limit my caliber choices than the government. it all comes down to bullet selection and shot placement just like every other "this caliber or that caliber" discussion. you can make a bad shot with a larger caliber weapon just as easy as a smaller one.

we are never going to filter out all of the poor shots, one weekend a year warriors, or the "i can make that 700yd shot with my 243" types, so there are always going to be lost game and injured game either dying a slow painfull death or wandering the hills with a slug in their hip as results of questionable low percentage level shots

i love my 22-250 and can shoot one ragged hole groups at 200 yards i am confident i can humanely kill a deer with it but i will never find out as my .243 is much lighter, just as accurate and easier to pack around.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: 724wd on September 22, 2011, 01:15:07 PM: Quote from: uplandhunter870 on September 22, 2011, 01:05:04 PM
i dont see why not. id rather physics limit my caliber choices than the government. it all comes down to bullet selection and shot placement just like every other "this caliber or that caliber" discussion. you can make a bad shot with a larger caliber weapon just as easy as a smaller one.

correct and thought-provoking point you bring up. but is there a line to be drawn? a .22 short behind the ear will drop nearly anything in it's tracks, but should you be legally allowed to hunt with one? At some point every hunter will make a poor shot, and with larger caliber weapons, the chance of immobilizing the animal with subsequent back-up shots increases.

Quote from: uplandhunter870 on September 22, 2011, 01:05:04 PM
we are never going to filter out all of the poor shots, one weekend a year warriors, or the "i can make that 700yd shot with my 243" types, so there are always going to be lost game and injured game either dying a slow painfull death or wandering the hills with a slug in their hip as results of questionable low percentage level shots

shhhhhh..... the anti's might hear you! but unfortunately it's true! :o
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: high country on September 22, 2011, 01:17:55 PM: watch a critter take a dirt nap after catching a 53gr tsx and tell me they are not enough gun........you will go from saying nay to wow.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: 724wd on September 22, 2011, 01:44:27 PM: what kind of critter? prairie dog? moose? :dunno: :chuckle:
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: bobcat on September 22, 2011, 01:46:03 PM: Starling.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: uplandhunter870 on September 22, 2011, 03:09:07 PM: Quote from: 724wd on September 22, 2011, 01:15:07 PM
Quote from: uplandhunter870 on September 22, 2011, 01:05:04 PM
i dont see why not. id rather physics limit my caliber choices than the government. it all comes down to bullet selection and shot placement just like every other "this caliber or that caliber" discussion. you can make a bad shot with a larger caliber weapon just as easy as a smaller one.

correct and thought-provoking point you bring up. but is there a line to be drawn? a .22 short behind the ear will drop nearly anything in it's tracks, but should you be legally allowed to hunt with one? At some point every hunter will make a poor shot, and with larger caliber weapons, the chance of immobilizing the animal with subsequent back-up shots increases.

i agree 724wd there is a line to be drawn and in a perfect world it would be drawn by the ethics of individual sportsmen/women and an accurate self assessment of their own individual capabilities not a fish and game agency. there are hunters that possess great skill in shooting and could do quite well with smaller calibers due to years of practice or simply god given shooting talent and then there are others that dont have the years of practice or simply were not graced with such talents.

since we do not live in a perfect world and everyone determines their own ethics and evaluates there abilities differently we will simply have to follow the rules handed to us.

and yes i agree that with larger caliber weapons you drastically increase your chances of quickly putting a wounded animal down
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: GoldTip on September 22, 2011, 03:21:31 PM: I knew several smaller framed girls when I was a kid in Montana who's Dad's had them deer hunting with a 22magnum. One girl I knew really well killed several deer with a 22mag, I know at least one was a good buck I recall. Her Dad was always with her when hunting and limited her shots to under 50 yards and broadside and they were all one shot kills. Many here would say the guy lacked common sense to have his daughter hunting with that weapon. I know that same girl now packs a 338 win mag in AK and kills animals we all dream about. So I would say that Daddy knew what he was doing when he introduced her to the sport. Don't know whether that was legal back then or not, hell it was going on 35 years ago, but I know it was done. Not sure whether I care for this states fish police deciding what caliber I can or can not hunt with either, kind of like telling me I HAVE to wear a seat belt. But I digress with my last statement, simple fact of the matter is that those calibers are not legal to hunt with in this state. No different than it's not legal to kill wolves or grizzlies here, we have to follow the laws as set forth by the fish and game, or choose to decide they are wrong and face the consequences.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: high country on September 22, 2011, 04:13:24 PM: Quote from: 724wd on September 22, 2011, 01:44:27 PM
what kind of critter? prairie dog? moose? :dunno: :chuckle:

Anything in between. A good bullet makes the +3500ish centerfires down right pissed.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: Emptyhanded on September 22, 2011, 07:53:34 PM: I'm thinkin' a 53 gr. TSX through shoulders would be bad news for the deer... :twocents:
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: wreckerman5357 on September 22, 2011, 08:17:26 PM: Like was mentioned above with the girl that deer hunted with the .22 mag, I think a lot of people have their kids hunt with these small caliber rifles because they are too small to handle the recoil of a larger rifle. I think if a kid can't handle a .243, then they are not ready to hunt. Wait a year or two, have them practice with tongues and step them up when they are ready.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: 724wd on September 22, 2011, 10:57:56 PM: Quote from: wreckerman5357 on September 22, 2011, 08:17:26 PM
Wait a year or two, have them practice with tongues and step them up when they are ready.

WHAT??!!! :yike: with a 4 year old daughter at home, i don't want her to practice ANYTHING with tongues! :o
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: runningboard on September 23, 2011, 12:35:37 AM: Quote
I think a lot of people have their kids hunt with these small caliber rifles because they are too small to handle the recoil of a larger rifle. I think if a kid can't handle a .243, then they are not ready to hunt.
Exactly why I have students in my Hunter Education classes shoot at least a 20 gauge shotgun as it is the smallest legal for big-game. I have told parents your words verbatim, if they can't handle the 20 gauge, then perhaps they are not ready.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: BLUEBULLS on September 23, 2011, 05:54:12 AM: I agree that a 22-250 will do the job if used correctly but they have to draw a line somewhere. You can thank a large percentage of our population for this, too many idiots out running around who would use a 22-250 incorrectly. I feel like they drew the line in a good spot.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: wreckerman5357 on September 23, 2011, 07:04:18 AM: Quote from: 724wd on September 22, 2011, 10:57:56 PM
Quote from: wreckerman5357 on September 22, 2011, 08:17:26 PM
Wait a year or two, have them practice with tongues and step them up when they are ready.

WHAT??!!! :yike: with a 4 year old daughter at home, i don't want her to practice ANYTHING with tongues! :o

Got to love the autocorrect feature on Android phones. "rimfire" was corrected "tongues". Got to really watch what this things doing I guess!
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: demontang on September 23, 2011, 07:32:03 AM: Quote from: wreckerman5357 on September 23, 2011, 07:04:18 AM
Got to love the autocorrect feature on Android phones. "rimfire" was corrected "tongues". Got to really watch what this things doing I guess!

:chuckle: My iphone does a few good one too.

It seems that the gov has to protect the not so sharp from them selves a lot, look at all the things that are laws that should just be common sense :twocents:
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: high country on September 24, 2011, 08:14:27 AM: It is pretty obvious Montana, Idaho, Alaska....and others have better hunters than wa does. They seem to do just fine with 22 centers.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: wreckerman5357 on September 25, 2011, 11:53:44 AM: People lose plenty of animals in those states with .22 centerfires as well. It's just that those states don't interfere in peoples business by telling them .22s are illegal. Just as many idiots there I'm sure.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: inchtowntracking on September 25, 2011, 08:47:39 PM: I have seen posts like this before on different sites, and one guy said that guys who cant shoot use bigger guns. Less room for error that way. Now I know that cant be true for all but I would feel safe to guess that is the case for some. From other guys on here it sounds like if you can find the right bullet a smaller gun can be just as deadly as a big gun when shooting in the shoulder. I say use what you feel comfortable with and use a bullet that is capibale to get the job done.
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: high country on September 26, 2011, 05:07:42 AM: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5638484/Re_Girl_s_first_deer_hunt_with#Post5638484 (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5638484/Re_Girl_s_first_deer_hunt_with#Post5638484)
Title: Re: 22-250
Post by: tsimp1211 on September 26, 2011, 08:47:39 AM: This argument has been around forever, and both arguments have their merits. I now live in a state, where there are no caliber restrictions. I have seen first hand what a .22WMR can do to a whitetail. The .22WMR dispatches deer efficiently when proper bullet placement is in effect. Proper bullet placement being the neck or head of the animal. I have also seen deer taken humanely with a .17HMR. Again, bullet placement being the contributing factor.

My father in law hunts with a 22-250 and has for quite some time. He routinely shoots over 20 deer a year with this round down here in SC. With that said, he is primarily taking neck shots. Two years ago he shot a 150lb whitetail through the ribs, and the bullet passed through easily. The shot was around 85 yards, and the deer didn't make more than 30 yards before falling down dead. However, when he goes out to Kansas every year, he carries his 7MM-08 or 30-06. He does this because he may have to take a shot at over 200 yards, and I believe Kansas and a .24 caliber minimum requirement.

It is in my opinion as an ethical hunter you must know your hunting situation. You must know your shooting limitations, and that of your rifle. I would feel 100% comfortable taking a deer with .22WMR, a .22 Hornet, .223, .220 swift, .22-250 or any other .22 caliber rounds that I may have left out, excluding the .22 short, long, or long rifle. I know how to use my guns, and their limitations and capabilities.

Happy hunting, and good luck. I am flying back to Washington this year to chase the Mulies around, I can't wait. :tup: