Post by: teanawayslayer on October 02, 2011, 10:34:26 PM
Post by: deerslyr on October 02, 2011, 10:39:10 PM
Post by: Dirty Mike on October 02, 2011, 10:56:43 PM
Post by: engelwood on October 03, 2011, 08:24:10 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on October 03, 2011, 08:54:37 AM
I am not real familiar with Barnes bullets because I do not use them, I have always been stuck on Nosler Partitions in the past, but what I can suggest to you from the information I have collected over time.
There are times, certainly not always, that a Barnes all copper bullet can pencil through an animal at the closer ranges, especially Barnes with very small HP or pointed tips. The older Barnes with the big wide open hollow point do not seem to fall into this problem.
Yet these same bullets will perform extremely well at the longer ranges...
Post by: bobcat on October 03, 2011, 09:00:54 AM
Quote
There are times that a Barnes all copper bullet can pencil through an animal at the closer ranges
That statement doesn't sound right to me. If anything, a bullet will "pencil through" at longer ranges. The reason for "penciling through" or, in other words, not expanding, is that the bullet's speed is not enough to initiate expansion. This is true with all bullets. They will always expand more at higher velocities, which translates to "closer ranges". So, a bullet that does not expand at a short distance sure is not going to expand more at a longer distance, where the bullet has less velocity.
Post by: Sabotloader on October 03, 2011, 10:00:10 AM
QuoteThere are times that a Barnes all copper bullet can pencil through an animal at the closer ranges
That statement doesn't sound right to me. If anything, a bullet will "pencil through" at longer ranges. The reason for "penciling through" or, in other words, not expanding, is that the bullet's speed is not enough to initiate expansion. This is true with all bullets. They will always expand more at higher velocities, which translates to "closer ranges". So, a bullet that does not expand at a short distance sure is not going to expand more at a longer distance, where the bullet has less velocity.
At the longer ranges, even though the bullet has less velocity – if it has enough energy – it will have time to expand in a small area such as a broadside shot on a whitetail.
You would think what you are indicating would be the norm, but I believe you would see the difference in actuality…
In the normal situation the closed HP or Spire point bullet is loaded to near max velocity in an effort to cover the bases from a short range shot to a long range shot. An all copper closed HP or SPoint bullet traveling at near max velocity will enter and exit a thin skinned deer without having time to expand before it is out of the animal and traveling on. If that same bullet with the same velocity were shot into a thicker, tougher skinned animal such as an elk that same bullet would function as we might expect.
Then at extended ranges that same bullet with lost velocity has time to do its job in a thinned skinned whitetail.
People have tested this, (at close) range shooting zip lock bags of water. The bullet cuts such a nice clean neat little hole – it is just out of the bag before it can expand to its extent.
Post by: bobcat on October 03, 2011, 10:08:36 AM
Quote
An all copper closed HP or SPoint bullet traveling at near max velocity will enter and exit a thin skinned deer without having time to expand before it is out of the animal and traveling on.
I've heard this theory before, but sorry, I just can't agree with it. It goes against the laws of physics, and I've never read anything by an expert on this subject that would indicate that this is possible. I bet Barnes would confirm that high velocity does not cause a bullet to "pencil" through an animal without expanding.
Post by: deerslyr on October 03, 2011, 10:16:36 AM
Post by: Rick on October 03, 2011, 10:18:29 AM
QuoteAn all copper closed HP or SPoint bullet traveling at near max velocity will enter and exit a thin skinned deer without having time to expand before it is out of the animal and traveling on.
I've heard this theory before, but sorry, I just can't agree with it. It goes against the laws of physics, and I've never read anything by an expert on this subject that would indicate that this is possible. I bet Barnes would confirm that high velocity does not cause a bullet to "pencil" through an animal without expanding.
I've argued this "theory" with Sabotloader and carpsniperg2 before. They both claim higher velocity means the bullet will zip through a deer before it can expand.
Their theory just doesn't make sense.
I'm with you,I think they're wrong.
Post by: teanawayslayer on October 03, 2011, 10:32:04 AM
Post by: bobcat on October 03, 2011, 10:36:22 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on October 03, 2011, 10:42:28 AM
QuoteAn all copper closed HP or SPoint bullet traveling at near max velocity will enter and exit a thin skinned deer without having time to expand before it is out of the animal and traveling on.
I've heard this theory before, but sorry, I just can't agree with it. It goes against the laws of physics, and I've never read anything by an expert on this subject that would indicate that this is possible. I bet Barnes would confirm that high velocity does not cause a bullet to "pencil" through an animal without expanding.
I've argued this "theory" with Sabotloader and carpsniperg2 before. They both claim higher velocity means the bullet will zip through a deer before it can expand.
Their theory just doesn't make sense.
I'm with you,I think they're wrong.
Rick, what it comes down to is the frontal area of the bullet, especially at muzzleloader velocities. If the frontal area is so small and so sharp - unless the bullet hits a bone or is in the animals body long enough to allow expansion to occur - nothing really starts expansion.
Ages ago… some guy named Keith ??? recognized this very factor and created what we now call the Keith Nose bullet. The flat nose on these bullets increases the frontal area of the bullet so that on contact with the animals hide the exposed large frontal area begins the expansion of the bullet right away.
On the other if you look at all the pistol bullets out there for a 45 cal pistol you will probably find the same Keith nose effect has been built into the bullet by increase the contact surface of the nose of the bullet.
This penciling effect was first observed with the development of the SST/Shock Wave class bullet. I am not a Barnes fan – so I am not aware of all of their bullets.. but if the TMZ is a closed HP and on top of that if it is all copper… the expansion can even be delayed longer. The opposite of this is true is if you are shooting a thicker skinned animal or you shoot through a bone, something to start expansion, or an animal at longer ranges when the velocity of the bullet has decreased causing the bullet to make a more difficult penetration of the hide.
Post by: sirmissalot on October 03, 2011, 11:38:19 AM
Post by: teanawayslayer on October 03, 2011, 12:10:55 PM
Sounds to me like it wasn't a very good shot. Maybe a high shoulder shot. Sorry to hear about your luck. And I don't believe in bullets not expanding at close range, long range yes, close range no.You know I had a good shot I have killed a lot of deer When that buck hit the deck I know it was a good shot. I have never had a buck get away with a muzzle loader. Infact don't take more than a few steps. First time for everything But I do know I had a good shot.
Post by: jbender on October 03, 2011, 12:18:14 PM
Post by: Lowedog on October 03, 2011, 12:39:35 PM
Post by: ML_Hunter on October 03, 2011, 05:43:21 PM
Post by: HardCorpsHuntr on October 03, 2011, 08:18:24 PM
Post by: 50CalJim on October 03, 2011, 08:33:27 PM
First year for me using a ML. I used Barnes TMZ 250 grains. I stoned my buck in his bed at 70 yards with a heart shot through the brisket and my second deer tag was a broadside 90ish yard shot. She ran about 10 yards and rolled another 100!!! I was very impressed. :tup:Did you happen to recover the bullet? If ya did whats it look like.
Post by: Lowedog on October 03, 2011, 09:14:12 PM
Post by: 50CalJim on October 03, 2011, 09:22:16 PM
Post by: G.R.K on October 03, 2011, 09:44:26 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 04, 2011, 08:04:50 AM
Why when a animal is not recovered is it a bullet or component problem?Barnes TMZ will expand at 1100 fps and has no listed max velocity. :dunno:most likely the great shot was in fact not all that great. Put anything through the heart or lungs and dead deer. End of story. I don't buy the not expanting at higher velocity either.
Post by: demontang on October 04, 2011, 12:04:40 PM
Sorry for your luck Id keep looking for the deer it might be laying out there 400yds away dead :dunno:
Post by: ML_Hunter on October 04, 2011, 02:17:41 PM
Post by: huntnnw on October 04, 2011, 08:25:11 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa139%2Fshanewa300%2FIMG_20111003_225739.jpg&hash=fa73dc75319546ed01e7bcdbcb677cc4f166a41e)
Post by: 3dsheetmetal on October 04, 2011, 08:35:47 PM
Post by: huntnnw on October 04, 2011, 08:40:41 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on October 10, 2011, 07:10:17 PM