Post by: deerslyr on July 08, 2008, 05:48:56 PM
Post by: Gutpile on July 08, 2008, 06:00:01 PM
Post by: Bscman on July 08, 2008, 06:01:21 PM
.308 happens to be one of my fav's. ;)
Post by: bucklucky on July 08, 2008, 06:04:07 PM
Post by: deerslyr on July 08, 2008, 06:22:03 PM
What type and grain bullet would you guys recomend?
Post by: bucklucky on July 08, 2008, 06:25:46 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 08, 2008, 08:15:08 PM
Quote
shorter cycle on the bolt beings its a short action
savage 99's a lever gun.
i'm a 30.06 guy....
180 grain 30.06 would get the job done nicely, but i don't think you'd go wrong either way.
Post by: bucklucky on July 09, 2008, 07:54:20 AM
Post by: Intruder on July 09, 2008, 10:21:00 AM
Post by: deerslyr on July 09, 2008, 10:35:39 AM
Its quite abit lighter too so that should be an advantage ;)
Post by: wastickslinger on July 09, 2008, 10:52:00 AM
I'd say the .308. Sunds like you already made up your mind.
Post by: Curly on July 09, 2008, 11:20:03 AM
Thanks guys, it looks like I will probably go with the 308. Its quite abit lighter too so that should be an advantage ;)
Good thinking. The M99 will be your best bet for that type of cover (timber and brush w/ close shots).
As far as bullet selection..........just about any 180 gr bullet will do the trick but I prefer well constructed bullets. I'd put Nosler Partition, Swift A-Frame, and Speer Grand Slam on the short list. You'd probably be fine using Winchester Power Point bullets or Remington Core-lokt too, but for only about $10 or so more for a box, you could get ammo with a little better construted bullet like the first three I mentioned. Anyway, that is my :twocents: ......other opinions will vary. ;)
Post by: edmondshunter on July 13, 2008, 12:35:06 PM
I am partial to a lever-action, going Iron Sights would top it off
Post by: Red Dawg on July 13, 2008, 01:05:48 PM
Post by: Ray on July 13, 2008, 02:21:12 PM
Visual
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunsandammomag.com%2Freloads%2FGA_300SAUM_200805c.jpg&hash=739c2f3bd2b98e96cf53ca6ac7cffa1ed913af4e)
Left .308
Right .30-06
Center .300 RSAUM
Post by: edmondshunter on July 13, 2008, 08:13:27 PM
Post by: Tony 270WSM on July 13, 2008, 08:43:21 PM
Bottom line, whatever difference there is, it won't matter at 50-100 yards. I'd take the one you are most comfortable with.
Post by: Head-shot on July 13, 2008, 08:54:51 PM
Bottom line, whatever difference there is, it won't matter at 50-100 yards. I'd take the one you are most comfortable with.Well said
Post by: bobcat on July 13, 2008, 09:47:53 PM
just checked a book I have and the 30-06 has way better #'s at just about all ranges w/180gr bullets. The .308 has a max velo. range of 165 yrds @ 2000/1599 for elk, the 30-06 has the same #'s at 365 yrds.
Umm...yeah, sorry but that's total B.S. I don't care what the numbers say, with the right bullet a 308 is good to at least 300 yards for elk. The maximum range is more dependent on the shooter anyway, not the cartridge itself. I do know one thing-an elk will not be able to tell the difference between an '06 and a 308 at 300 yards, or actually at any reasonable range. With either one he will be down and out if the shooter puts the bullet in the right spot.
Post by: MountainWalk on July 13, 2008, 10:10:56 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 13, 2008, 10:14:06 PM
Post by: MountainWalk on July 13, 2008, 10:34:44 PM
Post by: sisu on July 14, 2008, 05:58:33 AM
Post by: MIKEXRAY on July 14, 2008, 06:34:55 AM
Post by: ebusa on July 15, 2008, 11:52:32 AM
Post by: cascademountainhunter on July 21, 2008, 09:58:39 PM
Post by: Curly on July 22, 2008, 08:18:32 AM
Post by: MichaelJ on July 23, 2008, 12:27:06 PM
Here's a question, why is the 308 the classic sniper round over the 30-06 in Military and Law Enforcement?
Michael
Post by: MountainWalk on July 23, 2008, 12:31:53 PM
Post by: MichaelJ on July 23, 2008, 06:31:03 PM
Michael
Post by: cabin308 on July 23, 2008, 06:57:52 PM
b/c its a nato round, or thats the best i could tell.. i believe the 308 came around b/c they wanted 06 power in a smaller case, less brass, less money.Possibly because less brass=less weight? Allows for more ammo/person to be carried on the battlefield.
Anyhow, to get on the thread topic, his scenario is best suited for the lever 308. I vote with MikeXRay and Curly.
Sounds like you made your decision but this is the exact scenario that the 308 was designed for. It is simply a shorter round that works well in a lever action. Give you much faster follow up shots. The hunting you described screams the 308. The 308 is not the caliber the 30-06 is and wasn't intended to compete with it ever, just to fill its own niche. Go with the heavier bullet, round nose for good expansion at short range.
I can't believe that so many people suggest the 30-06 rifle. He has an 06 in bolt action and the .308 is a lever action. For me, I'd much prefer the lever action for the type of cover he is talking about........brushy w/ shots from 50 - 100 yards. The Savage would be much lighter and easier to get on target for a quick shot.
Post by: Wacenturion on July 23, 2008, 08:13:41 PM
Let’s take a quick look at the history of the 7.62 NATO and .308 Winchester. In the early 50’s, the US Government was working on a cartridge to replace the 30/06. The US was wedded to the .30 caliber bore diameter, or, in metric designation, 7.62 mm (Note.2). They wanted a round both shorter and lighter, but with the same power as the longer, heavier & bulkier 30/06. Research proceeded and the end result was the “T-65” cartridge (later renamed 7.62 NATO). So, how were the specifications achieved in a case 0.479-inch shorter then the 30/06? Newly designed ball powder and hotter primers account for the retention of velocity in the shorter case. The working pressure for the 30/06 and the 7.62 NATO are virtually identical.
The US lobbied hard with its NATO allies to adopt the new 7.62 cartridge as standard. Ammunition standardization makes sense, and in the end; NATO nations adopted the 7.62 NATO round (Note.3).
Winchester, recognizing that any round adopted in mass by a group of countries would almost automatically become very popular, adopted the T65 / 7.62 NATO round and called their version the .308 Winchester. However, they are not identical twins.
There are headspace differences between the two rounds. The .308 go-gauge is 1.6300, the .308 no go-gauge is 1.6340. The 7.62 go-gauge is 1.6350, the 7.62 no go-gauge is 1.6405. Since NATO military ammunition can come from any NATO country, and the goal is the ability to interchange ammunition, the military chamber is larger.
Provided we use common sense, headspace differences shouldn’t cause us to quake in fear. If a person is using new, Mil-Surp ammunition; and not reloading it, then the headspace becomes a non-issue. The round is fired and expended.
Post by: jeff100 on July 25, 2008, 11:33:23 PM
I'm facing the exact same scenario and decision for black bear this year. I'm hoping to call in a bear with a cub squall call. I'm new to calling, but if this works as I think it will, the bear will come in fast and aggressive. At least it will if it's the kind of large dominate boar I'm looking for. I need a rifle I can aim and shoot in a hurry in thick cover.
Here's how it plays out in my mind. For west side hunting in heavy cover for black bears, I'm choosing my Savage 99 in .308. I've recently pulled the scope off this rifle and installed a good rear peep sight for just this kind of hunting. With this setup, this is the perfect rifle for close quarters in thick cover for potentially dangerous game. I trust this rifle with these sights and my ability out to approx. 200 yards with a good rest, but this is really my short range heavy cover rifle. I can get on target faster with the peep sight than I ever could with a scope when speed counts. Have you ever noticed that hunters in Africa hunting dangerous game in thick cover, you don't ever see a scope on a rifle?! Open sights will never be fogged up or set on 9X when you're faced with a 30 yard snap shot.
Now everybody has been touting heavy bullets for the .308 Win, and that's fine, you'll get no real argument from me within reason and especially at short range. But the reality is, bullet weight is just one factor. Velocity plays a big role as well. The .308 Win has only so much case capacity for powder. According to my Sierra reloading manual (3rd addition), a 150 grain bullet loaded to max load will exit the barrel at approx 2900 feet per second for a energy rating of 2801 foot pounds. 2801 ft/lbs is the key number here. Max load for a 165 grain bullet = 2700 fps @ 2670 ft/lbs., 180 grain 2600 fps @ 2701 ft/lbs., 200 grain 2450 fps @ 2665 ft/lbs.. One could argue that the heavier bullets may retain slightly more energy at distance than lighter bullets. I don't know if that argument is valid, I suspect it is not. What I DO know is at the muzzle, the 150 grain bullet has the most energy and IMO, the increased recoil of the heavier bullets in this caliber is not justified by the performance assuming a well designed hunting bullet is used.
My '06 is set up with a Burris scope with the ranging reticle. If I'm hunting open country, that's the rifle I'd go to no questions asked. I use this rifle for big big game or tough big game that is just too much for my .260 Rem. I've shot this caliber for many many years and trust it implicitly if I do my part. I used to have a .300 Win Mag, and that was a hell of a good caliber. If I still desired to shoot big game beyond 400 yards, I'd still have it. But these days, I like to get closer because to me, that's called hunting (or stalking anyway), so the Win Mag is gone.
Now I'll tell ya, my first black bear was shot with another '06 I had at the time with a fairly hot 180 grain (Hornady SP) handload. I shot that bear just behind the shoulder, the bullet took out one shoulder, the heart and exited out the other side breaking a rib in the process. That bear still ran full speed about 70 yards before it piled up, groaned for a couple of minutes and then expired. In my experience, bears are tough critters requiring good shot placement with a well designed bullet. A well designed bullet may be the most important factor of all. It's very important to me, and with a well designed hunting bullet, I'm more than comfortable shooting a 150 grain bullets in my .308 for bears...
Jeff
Post by: MountainWalk on July 27, 2008, 11:08:12 PM
Now everybody has been touting heavy bullets for the .308 Win, and that's fine, you'll get no real argument from me within reason and especially at short range. But the reality is, bullet weight is just one factor. Velocity plays a big role as well. The .308 Win has only so much case capacity for powder. According to my Sierra reloading manual (3rd addition), a 150 grain bullet loaded to max load will exit the barrel at approx 2900 feet per second for a energy rating of 2801 foot pounds. 2801 ft/lbs is the key number here. Max load for a 165 grain bullet = 2700 fps @ 2670 ft/lbs., 180 grain 2600 fps @ 2701 ft/lbs., 200 grain 2450 fps @ 2665 ft/lbs.. One could argue that the heavier bullets may retain slightly more energy at distance than lighter bullets. I don't know if that argument is valid, I suspect it is not. What I DO know is at the muzzle, the 150 grain bullet has the most energy and IMO, the inreased recoil of the heavier bullets in this caliber is not justified by the performance assuming a well designed hunting bullet is used.
Jeff
a rebuttal, or, "the other side of the coin."
Expanding bullets create permanent wound channels up to three times the size of bullet's final expanded diameter. That being said, heavy for caliber expanding bullets have the ability to expand to a larger final diameter than lighter ones of the same caliber.
But what is interesting is that the loads or cartidges that produce the most muzzle energy are not necessarily the most effective on game. In alot of cases, even with premium bullets, high velocity bullets hitting game very very colse results in poor results.
To most hunters, the idea of more muzzle energy means more killing power. Muzzle energy is just a measure, theoretically, of a bullet's ability to cause damage. But, what many hunters dont remember is, that bullets in flight have two physical properties. Energy, and momentum.
The more momentum a moving object has, the harder it is for that object to stop, or to be stopped. So for hunting this means heavy for caliber, long high sectional density bullets at moderate speeds. All this means one thing, penetration. No penetration, no dead animal.
This next bit of info comes from Dr. Kevin Robertson, an accomplished African PH, and animal vet.
"im sure many big game hunters do not realize that different projectiles inflight can contain similar amounts of energy but have differing momentum values.
the 404 jeffery fires a 400 grain bullet at 2150fps, a ballistic combo that creates 4000 foot pouns of muzzle energy and a momentum value of 123 pounds feet per second. the 375hh fires a 300 grain bullet at 2500fps. this is good for a similar amount of muzzle energy, but only creates 107 pounds feet per second of momentum. now, if it were possible to fire a 40 grain aspirin at 6800fps, it too would possess 4000 foot pounds of muzzle energy, but it would only have 39 pounds feet per second of momentum. how these three would perform on game should be obvious, yet all have the same amount of muzzle energy. the 404 is the most effective.
caliber bullet weight sectional density Muzzle vel muzzle energy mm lbs-fps ko value
375 270 .275 2600 4053 100 38
375 300 .305 2500 4164 107 40
375 330 .335 2400 4222 113 42
375 350 .356 2300 4110 115 43
375 380 .386 2200 4080 119 45
375 400 .407 2125 4010 121 46
another of his tables
cartridge bullet weight-SD- velocity- ME ft lbs Mm lbs-fps recoil energy ko value
375HH 380 .386 2200 4080 119 40 45
375RUM 300 .305 2750 5040 118 49 44
375WBY 300 .305 2900 5604 124 62 47
all are based on a ten pounds rifle.
So its intersting to note that increasing velocity to improve momentum and ko values is not the best way to go about things. Granted, it increases muzzle energy, but at the price of more recoil and muzzle blast.
In my own exp and watching others while shooting at game,, heavier bullets in any given caliber give the best results.. Hence my fondness of 220 grain bullets in the 30-06, and the 250 grain 338 bullet.
Happy hunting and shooting.
375
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on July 27, 2008, 11:34:20 PM
The .585 Nyati is a shoulder-fired rifle cartridge. Nyati (n-ya-te) means Cape Buffalo in many African languages such as Swahili. The .585 Nyati can generate 10,000 lb·ft (13,600 N·m) of muzzle energy. This places it at or near the top of the list for most powerful cartridges that can be chambered in a rifle that can still be carried afield.
Post by: Intruder on July 28, 2008, 09:22:28 AM
Post by: CP on July 28, 2008, 09:30:54 AM
Yep, either one will blow a hole clean through the animal and expend most of its energy on the landscape beyond.
Post by: KillBilly on July 28, 2008, 09:36:07 AM
I have a savage model 99 in 308 and a springfield 30/06 but im not sure which one would be better for bears. I can shoot both of these rifles very well and will be hunting in thick timber where shots range from 50 to 100 yards. Which rifle would you think is best suitable?
After all of this, I sure hope you let us know what your decision is. The curiosity is killing me.
Post by: Curly on July 28, 2008, 09:42:27 AM
For crimeny sakes. Based on the original question (shooting a bear at close range) there's gonna be 0 difference in the effectiveness between a 308 and a 30-06. The bear will die equally well assuming a good shot is made.
Exactly! Therefore, take the rifle that is lighter, quicker to get on target, and is quicker for follow-up shots..............in this case, that rifle is the .308.
Jeff100 nailed it IMO.
Post by: Curly on July 28, 2008, 10:00:54 AM
I assume that he doesn't reload, so I suggested a 180 gr bullet in case he ended up with some cheap factory ammo (like Winchester Power Points).......and at 180 gr out of the .308, the velocity should be relatively slow and the bullet should hold together well at lower velocities even if it is a cheaper bullet. And he did say 100 yards max, so trajectory isn't an issue out to that range.
I do agree with Jeff100 however, on his suggestion about using 150 gr bullets in the .308.........as long as they are premium bullets like Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, A-frame, or Barnes TSX. Bullets over 180 gr aren't really necessary in this case and probably are hard to find in a factory box of .308 ammo.