Post by: Naches Sportsman on October 31, 2011, 05:35:13 PM
[u]Reason 2[/u]: This past weekend there was a bad fight on the 1900 road involving hunters and guns. Hunters are not allowing people to share land with them here. well what do you know, a bad fight breaks out blood everywhere, broken bones, missing teeth and the typical terrible fight.
DO YOU WANT OFFICIALS TO CLOSE THE SPIKE HUNTING SEASON?
Act like real sportsmans and make the B.S. stop. this is why hunters are receiving bad names.
Post by: Hilltop123 on October 31, 2011, 05:41:05 PM
Post by: gasman on October 31, 2011, 05:43:48 PM
Post by: hunterbuilder on October 31, 2011, 05:56:49 PM
Reason 1: The good hunters are seeing this sportsmanship in the Central washington Spike Units go down. Beer cans Busch light(hunters' favorite),
Cans of Modelo seemed to be the roadhunters beer of choice when I took a drive up around the Colockum on Saturday. :dunno:
Post by: igotbigbulls on October 31, 2011, 05:59:00 PM
Post by: FC on October 31, 2011, 06:02:00 PM
yuk. canned modelo.
Might as well be drinking goat piss.
Post by: longknife on October 31, 2011, 06:05:04 PM
Sorry to hear about the trophy being stolen!! How can someone live with theirselves after something like that?? Then to say he shot it! Just sickens me!
Hate to say this, but it makes me consider hooking up with a squaw,,, trade her in for a horse after summer, then trade her back after fall. :tung:
Post by: seth30 on October 31, 2011, 06:17:44 PM
Reason 1: The good hunters are seeing this sportsmanship in the Central washington Spike Units go down. Beer cans Busch light(hunters' favorite), and trash from hunting camps is part of it :bash: :bash:. This past weekend, hunters were blocking roads in the rimrock unit which pisses me off >:(. Also dumb a$$ hunters like to drink and drive. What pisses me off even more and why I will most likely not go elk hunting this year is my buddies 7 point bull was stolen in the rimrock area. What idiots would steal the cape and run?I was just up there yesterday, and saw a lot of crap like that. Im glad I wasnt hunting anywhere near a road :twocents:
[u]Reason 2[/u]: This past weekend there was a bad fight on the 1900 road involving hunters and guns. Hunters are not allowing people to share land with them here. well what do you know, a bad fight breaks out blood everywhere, broken bones, missing teeth and the typical terrible fight.
DO YOU WANT OFFICIALS TO CLOSE THE SPIKE HUNTING SEASON?
Act like real sportsmans and make the B.S. stop. this is why hunters are receiving bad names.
Post by: colockumelk on October 31, 2011, 06:35:11 PM
Post by: mkcj on October 31, 2011, 06:36:33 PM
Post by: gasman on October 31, 2011, 06:41:52 PM
Norse, you hear any thing?
Post by: PLUVIUSWAPITI on October 31, 2011, 07:16:48 PM
Post by: seth30 on October 31, 2011, 07:17:01 PM
Post by: longknife on October 31, 2011, 07:27:27 PM
That's why I hunt with a bow. I dont see amy of the above.
I agree, its a diffrent kind of croud, as well as not seeing anyone for days.
Post by: biggdogg on October 31, 2011, 08:11:38 PM
Post by: calawahsteelie on October 31, 2011, 08:23:30 PM
this is from the sheriff log or the called in reports this is just one of the fights that happened this weekend. Couldn't find the 1900 rd fight logged anywhere but there was one worse than this.
11-16922 18:53:50 10/30/11 Simple Assault FS RD 1791, NACHES, WA
Disposition: ACTIVE
Comments : RP WAS ON FS RD 1791 BETWEN 1640-1700 HRS TODAY WHEN A WHI/M
W/LONG BLOND HAIR CAME INTO HIS HUNTING AREA//RP ASKED HIM TO
MOVE//THERE WAS A VERBAL ALTERCATION AND THE BLOND MAIL SWUNG HIS
RIFLE AROUND AND TRIED TO POINT IT AT THE RP//RP THEN GRABBED THE
BARREL THE RIFLE AND STRUCK THE MAN IN THE MOUTH//THE BLOND MAIN
LEFT W/HIS HUNTING PARTY DOWN THE MOUNTAIN//RP IS ENRT TO WHISTLIN
JACK LODGE ETA 20 MIN//HE WILL WAIT IN THE PK LOT IN A TAN/BLK
F350 TK AND IS REQUESTING CONTACT 19:09:02 10/30/2011 - TRICKEY, A
xxxx AT 141 WAPITI RUN LN 658-xxxx SAID HIS FRINED WAS
ASSAULTED WHILE HUNTING//MR. xxxx WAS HIT IN THE
FACE AND THE BACK OF THE HEAD W/THE BUT OF A GUN AND IS BLEEDING
AND HAS BROKEN TEETH//FIRE ENRT///I BELEIVE THIS WILL BE THE OTHER
HALF OF THE INCIDENT
I see all sorts of beer cans but the majority of the 200 lbs of beer cans I picked up off the roads last year is Busch light. I have about 175 lbs of beer cans this year.
Stop! Hold the press! I drink Busch light and I don't road hunt. Please do not put me into that category. :chuckle:
Post by: yajsab on October 31, 2011, 10:05:19 PM
Post by: pips4bucks on October 31, 2011, 10:27:45 PM
Post by: LincolnTWilliams on November 01, 2011, 07:04:27 AM
Sounds like he had it coming. WHo walks into a camp and tells someone to move? If it was me having a rifle swung my way my 357 would have been in the news :twocents:
I can get on board with that, "How you like swallowin teeth hippie?!?!?!"...
Post by: colockumelk on November 01, 2011, 07:12:03 AM
Sounds like he had it coming. WHo walks into a camp and tells someone to move? If it was me having a rifle swung my way my 357 would have been in the news :twocents:
I can get on board with that, "How you like swallowin teeth hippie?!?!?!"...
Yeah the only difference is at the end of the hippie stomping he would have been zip tied waiting on the side of the road for the cops.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 01, 2011, 07:34:56 AM
That's why I hunt with a bow. I dont see amy of the above.
:yeah: x 10. Bow hunters have to work too hard for their kills to drive around being stupid. You might consider the switch. I went to bow when the modern season pressure got to be too much to handle.
Post by: WapitiChaser on November 01, 2011, 07:51:12 AM
Fellas, we need to watch out for each other and our ever decreasing wild land access. Call it in, write it down, get involved.
Post by: Glockster on November 01, 2011, 07:56:02 AM
I was set up in a canyon watching a trail opening afternoon. A guy comes within 20yds of me and doesn't even notice until I whistle. Another guy sees me and sets up above me about 100yds away and just sits there with a sh#@ eating grin on his face. I don't say a thing in these situations...just leave and find another spot.
What has elk hunting become??
Post by: wazzu99 on November 01, 2011, 08:36:32 AM
We proceeded in the other direction quickly.
Wazzu99
Post by: Knocker of rocks on November 01, 2011, 08:50:01 AM
Sounds like he had it coming. WHo walks into a camp and tells someone to move? If it was me having a rifle swung my way my 357 would have been in the news :twocents:
I think you missread the report. No campsite was involved. One hunter was set up in an area, and another ( long-haired blond ) entered it. First hunter ordered him out, and trouble ensued
this is from the sheriff log or the called in reports this is just one of the fights that happened this weekend. Couldn't find the 1900 rd fight logged anywhere but there was one worse than this.
11-16922 18:53:50 10/30/11 Simple Assault FS RD 1791, NACHES, WA
Disposition: ACTIVE
Comments : RP WAS ON FS RD 1791 BETWEN 1640-1700 HRS TODAY WHEN A WHI/M
W/LONG BLOND HAIR CAME INTO HIS HUNTING AREA//RP ASKED HIM TO
MOVE//THERE WAS A VERBAL ALTERCATION AND THE BLOND MAIL SWUNG HIS
RIFLE AROUND AND TRIED TO POINT IT AT THE RP//RP THEN GRABBED THE
BARREL THE RIFLE AND STRUCK THE MAN IN THE MOUTH//THE BLOND MAIN
LEFT W/HIS HUNTING PARTY DOWN THE MOUNTAIN//RP IS ENRT TO WHISTLIN
JACK LODGE ETA 20 MIN//HE WILL WAIT IN THE PK LOT IN A TAN/BLK
F350 TK AND IS REQUESTING CONTACT 19:09:02 10/30/2011 - TRICKEY, A
xxxx AT 141 WAPITI RUN LN 658-xxxx SAID HIS FRINED WAS
ASSAULTED WHILE HUNTING//MR. xxxx WAS HIT IN THE
FACE AND THE BACK OF THE HEAD W/THE BUT OF A GUN AND IS BLEEDING
AND HAS BROKEN TEETH//FIRE ENRT///I BELEIVE THIS WILL BE THE OTHER
HALF OF THE INCIDENT
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 01, 2011, 08:54:35 AM
Quote
I have about 175 lbs of beer cans this yearThey are helping you pay for fuel..
175 X .45 = $78.75 :chuckle:
Yhanks for picking them up. :tup:
Also, *censored*s are out there during Archery season also, just fewer of them.
smaller user group, still get that 1% :twocents:
Post by: andrebeergog on November 01, 2011, 09:13:42 AM
Post by: throttlejocky20 on November 01, 2011, 09:22:25 AM
Same stuff happens during archery season but not as much. One year me and the old man watch a guy chase a group of cows into an erigation canel and proceeded to shoot one while she fought to get out. Not to mention all this went on inside a safty zone. Well I couldent not due anything so we cut him off and called him out. It turned into a big fist sight when dudes brother tackled my old man. In the end they got what was coming there way because the gammy showed up.That's why I hunt with a bow. I dont see amy of the above.
:yeah: x 10. Bow hunters have to work too hard for their kills to drive around being stupid. You might consider the switch. I went to bow when the modern season pressure got to be too much to handle.
Post by: jordanramos_79 on November 01, 2011, 09:22:47 AM
Post by: Buckmark on November 01, 2011, 09:23:43 AM
Holy cow thats alot of cans...QuoteI have about 175 lbs of beer cans this yearThey are helping you pay for fuel..
175 X .45 = $78.75 :chuckle:
Yhanks for picking them up. :tup:
Also, *censored*s are out there during Archery season also, just fewer of them.
smaller user group, still get that 1% :twocents:
12oz would be 5713 cans
16oz would be 4307 cans
24oz would be 3109 cans
Post by: Austrian Hunter on November 01, 2011, 09:24:20 AM
#2 that's why I hunt NE, WA
#3 If I want to see that, I go to the Zoo
Post by: colockumelk on November 01, 2011, 09:27:21 AM
For some odd reason the deer season is far tamer and less dangerous than elk season. Not sure why. But I wouldn't have any qualms about letting the wife and kid hunt modern deer.
Post by: Austrian Hunter on November 01, 2011, 09:29:55 AM
Post by: Glockster on November 01, 2011, 10:40:39 AM
I too heard way more shots than animals hanging. Seemed like Sunday afternoon boredom = time to target shoot. Maybe they think if they shoot more, the elk will become accustomed to gunfire and it will be easier to road hunt them. I can't fathom the logic.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 01, 2011, 10:46:06 AM
I would not make the observation of saying archery hunters are pure as the driven snow. :chuckle: Alot of felons archery hunt because that's their only legal choice. But by and large, I agree; ML and Archery seasons are much less dangerous ; but just as crowded in places due to WDFW cutting back their seasons and squeezing them into smaller and smaller open units.
I too heard way more shots than animals hanging. Seemed like Sunday afternoon boredom = time to target shoot. Maybe they think if they shoot more, the elk will become accustomed to gunfire and it will be easier to road hunt them. I can't fathom the logic.
No one said we're pure as the driven snow, but a larger percentage of archers are more dedicated. It takes way more practice to shoot archery and way more stealth to get close. The investment in time, effort, and money is usually far greater than That of a modern firearm hunter. As a result, we seem to have a lower percentage of a$$hat$ and a higher percentage of committed and dedicated hunters. You usually don't get successful in archery by being a slouch.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on November 01, 2011, 10:51:58 AM
Edited cause I gotta think more
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 01, 2011, 10:54:00 AM
As a result, we seem to have a lower percentage of a$$hat$ and a higher percentage of committed and dedicated hunters.
And a higher percentage of felons
I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking I'm joking
Yeah, tons of 'em. You can't shoot an arrow during bow season without hitting a felon! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: elkfins on November 01, 2011, 01:25:36 PM
I've hunted modern firearm elk since I was a kid and can only remember a couple of times, both at Elk Heights where there were a bunch of a$$hats. One time a guy shot an illegal animal and the other time they were bitching on the radio because I shot a legal spike and was ruining "thier" hunt. Well... they can have "thier" hunt.
I hunt in a different spot now... away from roads, steep hillsides and dark, thick timber & brush. Except for in camp, I rarely if ever see another hunter unless they are with me. And I see plenty of elk... even the occasional spike. And I am convinced that all that pressure in the open areas pushes the elk to the spots that I am waiting at.
Post by: BK on November 01, 2011, 05:25:24 PM
Naches, here I thought Busch light emptys were only found on the logging roads of Pacific Co.
Nope, we favor PBR herebouts.
Post by: fremont on November 01, 2011, 05:36:04 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 01, 2011, 06:08:00 PM
There is plenty of bad sportsmanship in archery, too. It is slightly different because as pianoman wrote (weapon dedication, stealth). But I've seen plenty of bowhunters that are very short tempered and way more anal about little things than one might expect. Seem to recall a thread on here about a guy trying to pass a vehicle blocking a road and then faced a guy that drew down on him with a bow.
Post by: fremont on November 01, 2011, 06:19:31 PM
I'm not sure permit only will help that much. You'll still have 'Elk Camp'. Instead of ten guys looking for ten elk, you will have ten guys looking for the one elk the permit holder can shoot. Still think there will be crowds of drunk buds and radios. Still have guys blocking off a road so his 'bro' can hunt it alone.
I'll take my chances. Let's try it out and others can tell permit-only supporters like me we're wrong if it happens. But, it can't get much worse.
Post by: Bean Counter on November 01, 2011, 06:27:12 PM
More reflection of Washington's entitlement mentality when people demand to be able to hunt every year. Why I'm glad I now live in a draw only state :stirthepot:
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on November 01, 2011, 06:33:10 PM
Pretty soon there will only be a few of us left hunting here in Washington.
Post by: TommyH on November 02, 2011, 07:15:35 AM
:yeah: :yeah:I would not make the observation of saying archery hunters are pure as the driven snow. :chuckle: Alot of felons archery hunt because that's their only legal choice. But by and large, I agree; ML and Archery seasons are much less dangerous ; but just as crowded in places due to WDFW cutting back their seasons and squeezing them into smaller and smaller open units.
I too heard way more shots than animals hanging. Seemed like Sunday afternoon boredom = time to target shoot. Maybe they think if they shoot more, the elk will become accustomed to gunfire and it will be easier to road hunt them. I can't fathom the logic.
No one said we're pure as the driven snow, but a larger percentage of archers are more dedicated. It takes way more practice to shoot archery and way more stealth to get close. The investment in time, effort, and money is usually far greater than That of a modern firearm hunter. As a result, we seem to have a lower percentage of a$$hat$ and a higher percentage of committed and dedicated hunters. You usually don't get successful in archery by being a slouch.
Post by: Glockster on November 02, 2011, 08:09:30 AM
The more you reduce opportunity in terms of time and space ; the more bad behaviour develops. Look at any hunt. Look at any fishery in this state and you will see the reality of packing more rats into a smaller cage....and yet we have lost over 40% of our hunters over the past 20yrs but the woods are more crowded and sportsmanship is a lost concept. The more people are temped to cut corners ; the more people who are bad to begin with get even worse. So ya, make it permit only and see what happens.
I remember the 'pure' archers wanted all the 'non dedicated" guys out of 'their' sport back in the 80's so they lobbied for and helped win the Choose your Weapon law. It played right into the anti hunters' strategy of divide and conquer. Let's compare how much good that elitist exclusionary tactic worked out for the "more dedicated" hunters of this state:
Back in '86 I could archery hunt every single 300 unit for both deer and elk. Any elk and any deer was legal. Early season was Sept 1-30; late season was late Nov - Dec 31st.
Today I can only hunt archery hunt deer in 11 of the 300 units Sept 1-16 and only 3pt bucks are legal. For elk it's worse; i can only hunt Sept 6-18 only (5) 300 units are open and only spike bulls legal...and only true spike for 3 of those units. Late elk is now Nov 23 to Dec 5th 4 300 units spike or cow. For late season; only (4) 300 units are open for deer from Nov 24 - Dec 8th and only 3pts are legal.
You think archery hunting is better today than in '86??
Post by: demontang on November 02, 2011, 08:17:43 AM
Post by: spookgus on November 02, 2011, 08:54:56 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 02, 2011, 10:08:27 AM
Glock, I wasn't here then and don't know about what transpired before that rule was enacted. I'm not an elitist and I support any way that you hunt as long as your ethics are intact. My point wasn't that archers are any better than anyone else. Archery is a sport that you need to practice at more to be successful at. That's a fact. Unlike modern or even ML, You can't just pick up your bow on opening day and kill an elk. As a result, archery has a higher percentage of dedicated hunters. Are there unethical and bad hunters in archery? Sure there are. But, the undedicated and slouches tend more to stick to modern because they're lazy and it's easier. And, I'm also not saying modern hunters are lazy. I'm saying that if you ARE lazy, you're probably not going to pick archery as your tag of choice. It doesn't make us better or more worthy or make me elitist for saying so. It's just a fact of the sport.
You sound like you're ready to pick a fight with other hunters. I suggest that if you're really concerned for our dwindling elk opportunities that you pick anti-hunters to fight with instead. There are plenty of them out there. It's a target-rich environment. Best of luck to you in your hunting this fall, Glock. I hope you get the elk of your dreams.
Post by: 724wd on November 02, 2011, 10:41:02 AM
Post by: Recurve-Elk on November 02, 2011, 10:41:47 AM
Cheers! ;)
Post by: Recurve-Elk on November 02, 2011, 10:45:32 AM
That's why I hunt with a bow. I dont see amy of the above.
Happens during archery seasons too. Somebody tried to tag my dads bull once. We have heard of fights, and there is definitely a lot of fresh trash out there.
Post by: Dave Workman on November 02, 2011, 10:56:30 AM
Glock, I wasn't here then and don't know about what transpired before that rule was enacted.
Therein lies the problem with a lot of people on this forum. Those of us who are from around here know how much management has deteriorated and how much opportunity has been eroded over the years, and we're tired of it...and we are trying to educate you newcomers that what many of you think is good anagement now, compared to where you came from, is delusional.
Quote
I'm not an elitist and I support any way that you hunt as long as your ethics are intact.
Don't start talkking about "ethics." One man's "ethics" are another man's elitism. I've had people actually challenge me for carrying a rifle with a round in the chamber (apparently they saw on Saturday television somewhere that the star of some show waited until he saw a big bull roaming around..as found buy a guide on a private ranch...is the ethical way to hunt) out in the field. Horse apples. Elitists can go choke on the word "ethics" because it's a verbal weapon they use on others who don't share their particular principles.
Let's talk about RESPONSIBILITY instead.
Quote
Unlike modern or even ML, You can't just pick up your bow on opening day and kill an elk. As a result, archery has a higher percentage of dedicated hunters.
That's elitist rhetoric. Modern rifle, blackpowder and handgun hunters (I've done all three) are just as devoted to their choice, but they shouldn't have to be LIMITED to that choice because it destroys their opportunity to try something different. I don't hunt with a bow and never have because it simply doesn't interest me. Shooters enjoy the feel of a good rifle, the time spent at the loading bench, the ability to place a precision shot at distance (which is not being a lazy slob, but being a careful marksman). I've killed deer with rifles and handguns. That interests me.
Quote
But, the undedicated and slouches tend more to stick to modern because they're lazy and it's easier. And, I'm also not saying modern hunters are lazy. I'm saying that if you ARE lazy, you're probably not going to pick archery as your tag of choice. It doesn't make us better or more worthy or make me elitist for saying so. It's just a fact of the sport.
Self-contradictory. Rifle hunters choose modern because they're lazy and it's easier, but you're not saying modern hunters are lazy. Well, which is it? You voted for it before you voted against it?
Quote
You sound like you're ready to pick a fight with other hunters. I suggest that if you're really concerned for our dwindling elk opportunities that you pick anti-hunters to fight with instead. There are plenty of them out there. It's a target-rich environment. .
Some hunters deserve to have a fight poked at them, because they have gone along to get along for way too long. They walk around with their heads either in the clouds or up their rectums, thinking what they have now is just fine because it cuts down on competition and allows them a more "wilderness experience."
What about success? What about meat in the cooler? What about the next generation of hunters who deserve a lot more than being told by some twerp in Olympia or on television that disappointment is fine so long as they get to see an elk or deer prancing over the far ridge. People do not pay for disappointment. People will not pay to take their kids along when they know the odds of success are dismal; they'll see the kids stay home and play video games where at least they get to win once in a while.
But this whole argument takes us back to what I've said for years. Resource Allocation, which limits us to a weapon choice, perpetuates divisiveness among hunters, and that's deliberate. While we fight amongst ourselves, the department can do whatever it damn well pleases, whether it means cutting back seasons and opportunities; putting emphasis on wolves and "watchable" wildlife instead of putting fish in the lakes and rivers and expanding herd populations to boost success rates among the people who pay the bills.
As for someone taking an elk from me that I shot.... Good luck with that.
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 02, 2011, 10:59:24 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 02, 2011, 11:01:02 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 02, 2011, 11:02:26 AM
The more you reduce opportunity in terms of time and space ; the more bad behaviour develops. Look at any hunt. Look at any fishery in this state and you will see the reality of packing more rats into a smaller cage....and yet we have lost over 40% of our hunters over the past 20yrs but the woods are more crowded and sportsmanship is a lost concept. The more people are temped to cut corners ; the more people who are bad to begin with get even worse.I agree with this a whole lot. I think one of the main reasons it isn't seen as much in archery is the longer/split seasons. Sure, they only have about 1/4 the hunters and even some units that aren't available, but as it is now they can still spread out. They lost a few hunting days this past year, but what would archery be like if it was only a 1 week season? Think how many of the modern firearm incidents would go down if they had 3 or 4 more times as many days.
Post by: colockumelk on November 02, 2011, 11:45:24 AM
Dave, you took all of my comments out of context and I suspect you know it. I'm surprised.
:yeah:
Now its my turn to take his comments out of context.
Glock, I wasn't here then and don't know about what transpired before that rule was enacted.
Therein lies the problem with a lot of people on this forum. Those of us who are from around here know how much management has deteriorated and how much opportunity has been eroded over the years, and we're tired of it...and we are trying to educate you newcomers that what many of you think is good anagement now, compared to where you came from, is delusional. So because I'm not over 50 years old I must be delusional and a fool right. How could I possibly know what good managment is :dunno: My opinions obviously don't matter do they. Unless it goes along with what you say.QuoteI'm not an elitist and I support any way that you hunt as long as your ethics are intact.
Don't start talkking about "ethics." One man's "ethics" are another man's elitism. I've had people actually challenge me for carrying a rifle with a round in the chamber (apparently they saw on Saturday television somewhere that the star of some show waited until he saw a big bull roaming around..as found buy a guide on a private ranch...is the ethical way to hunt) out in the field. Horse apples. Elitists can go choke on the word "ethics" because it's a verbal weapon they use on others who don't share their particular principles.
Let's talk about RESPONSIBILITY instead.
Yes lets not talk about ethics God forbid people get a lesson on ethics. "One man's ethics are another man's elitism" Sounds about as elitist as it gets. What would you like to talk about Responsibility about? There is a reason I refuse to allow anyone in my family to hunt modern elk. Its not because I'm an elitist its just not safe IMHO. I also don't want to subject them to the lack of ethics I see during that time. Not saying everyone is unethical or irresponsible but there's enough of it that i don't want to expose my son to that.
QuoteUnlike modern or even ML, You can't just pick up your bow on opening day and kill an elk. As a result, archery has a higher percentage of dedicated hunters.
That's elitist rhetoric. Modern rifle, blackpowder and handgun hunters (I've done all three) are just as devoted to their choice, but they shouldn't have to be LIMITED to that choice because it destroys their opportunity to try something different. I don't hunt with a bow and never have because it simply doesn't interest me. Shooters enjoy the feel of a good rifle, the time spent at the loading bench, the ability to place a precision shot at distance (which is not being a lazy slob, but being a careful marksman). I've killed deer with rifles and handguns. That interests me.
This is kind of naive don't you think? I've hunted with a rifle, then switched to muzzle loader, and now I hunt with a bow. And unless you have hunted with a bow how are you gonna say whether or not it takes more skill and effort to be successfull. Well I've done all three so let me say this. In order to be LETHAL with a bow I must practise and tune my bow for at least 2 months. To do the same with a rifle it takes me maybe a day. But its usually still on from last year. And you can't even compare the skill level it takes and the amount of effort it takes to get within lethal bow range compared to lethal rifle range.QuoteBut, the undedicated and slouches tend more to stick to modern because they're lazy and it's easier. And, I'm also not saying modern hunters are lazy. I'm saying that if you ARE lazy, you're probably not going to pick archery as your tag of choice. It doesn't make us better or more worthy or make me elitist for saying so. It's just a fact of the sport.
Self-contradictory. Rifle hunters choose modern because they're lazy and it's easier, but you're not saying modern hunters are lazy. Well, which is it? You voted for it before you voted against it?
You know exactly what he meant. Rifle hunting IS EASIER!!! Nothing wrong with that and thats not what he was saying. It is a FACT that for the most part the since archery is far more time consuming than modern to be successfull, the people who are strapped for time or are lazy are not going to pick the harder method. They WILL pick the easier one. Again nothing wrong with that. If you want to do well than this is good decision making IMHO. Nothing elitist about it. Its the truth.QuoteYou sound like you're ready to pick a fight with other hunters. I suggest that if you're really concerned for our dwindling elk opportunities that you pick anti-hunters to fight with instead. There are plenty of them out there. It's a target-rich environment. .
Some hunters deserve to have a fight poked at them, because they have gone along to get along for way too long. They walk around with their heads either in the clouds or up their rectums, thinking what they have now is just fine because it cuts down on competition and allows them a more "wilderness experience."
What about success? What about meat in the cooler? What about the next generation of hunters who deserve a lot more than being told by some twerp in Olympia or on television that disappointment is fine so long as they get to see an elk or deer prancing over the far ridge. People do not pay for disappointment. People will not pay to take their kids along when they know the odds of success are dismal; they'll see the kids stay home and play video games where at least they get to win once in a while.
But this whole argument takes us back to what I've said for years. Resource Allocation, which limits us to a weapon choice, perpetuates divisiveness among hunters, and that's deliberate. While we fight amongst ourselves, the department can do whatever it damn well pleases, whether it means cutting back seasons and opportunities; putting emphasis on wolves and "watchable" wildlife instead of putting fish in the lakes and rivers and expanding herd populations to boost success rates among the people who pay the bills.
I agree 100% with what you said above. I don't disagree at all. Very well said DAVE. I'm not pissed its just you took Pianoman's words out of context and to me you sounded very elitist. :twocents: Maybe it came off different than you intended.
As for someone taking an elk from me that I shot.... Good luck with that.
Post by: Dave Workman on November 02, 2011, 11:51:15 AM
Dave, you took all of my comments out of context and I suspect you know it. I'm surprised.
No, I didn't, I answered your remarks point by point. And that brings us around to this:
Quote
Have a nice argument you guys.
I rest my case. Resource Allocation pitts one group against the other, so we are prone to having such arguments. That's no reason to take your ball and go home. You made some statements, I challenged them.
Whether you agree or not, your opportunities as an archer have been gradually eroded so what the bowhunters originally thought they would get when RA was first adopted a generation ago has become a shadow of its former self. Same with muzzleloaders.
You got screwed, but it's not the modern guys or the black powder guys who did it.
Post by: colockumelk on November 02, 2011, 12:01:36 PM
What about success? What about meat in the cooler? What about the next generation of hunters who deserve a lot more than being told by some twerp in Olympia or on television that disappointment is fine so long as they get to see an elk or deer prancing over the far ridge. People do not pay for disappointment. People will not pay to take their kids along when they know the odds of success are dismal; they'll see the kids stay home and play video games where at least they get to win once in a while.QUOTE DAVE WORKMAN
DAVE I want to touch on what you said above. I don't think that it could have been said any better than this. A copy of this message should be emailed and/or mailed to every single hunter in Washington State. We as sportsman are to blame for the loss of opportunity. Why??? BECAUSE WE DO NOTHING!!! Like you mentioned above people have their head up their rectum. They are afraid or too lazy to say anything or question the WDFW. The biggest excuse is "well lets just be thankfull for what we have." BS. This is why they keep chipping away at our seasons and opportunity. I think people settle too much. They pay all this money and don't expect anything in return except for what you said. Well at least I saw one. What a successfull year. At the end of my article I said "When people go year after year without getting anything they take up golf." Which is EXACTLY what happens. People worry about rocking the boat because they have this "well it can't get any worse" attitude but it IS ALWAYS going to get worse. History has shown us that it IS GOING to get worse. I used to fall into that. When spike only came around I thought well we have to sacrifice so it can get better again. Well guess what it still SUCKS. And what has spike only given us??? Nothing. Its given us elk to look at during the winter. So the wildlife viewing crowd has gained from it. The WDFW gets more money from special permit money. The tribal hunters get bigger bulls to hunt and the poachers have bigger bulls to hunt. The bull to cow ratio is the same if not worse in the Colockum. So again what has hunters gained from our sacrifice??? NOTHING PEOPLE!!!!
Sorry for the rant DAVE. You summed it up better than me. People need to stop being complacint they should expect more from the WDFW and should expect more from their hunting experience.
Post by: Dave Workman on November 02, 2011, 12:19:57 PM
Dave, you took all of my comments out of context and I suspect you know it. I'm surprised.
:yeah:
Now its my turn to take his comments out of context.
Glock, I wasn't here then and don't know about what transpired before that rule was enacted.
Therein lies the problem with a lot of people on this forum. Those of us who are from around here know how much management has deteriorated and how much opportunity has been eroded over the years, and we're tired of it...and we are trying to educate you newcomers that what many of you think is good anagement now, compared to where you came from, is delusional. So because I'm not over 50 years old I must be delusional and a fool right. How could I possibly know what good managment is :dunno: My opinions obviously don't matter do they. Unless it goes along with what you say.
Not being over 50 is your good fortune. You will catch up. We weren't talking about your age, but the experience of some people with Washington management and hunting opportunity. It is nowhere near as good as it was 25 years ago. It's rather shabby, actually. That doesn't make you a fool. Your opinions matter as much as anyone else's here. It's just that some of us have been here to watch this deterioration for decades and understand that it wasn't necessary. Indeed, some of it is kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy.QuoteI'm not an elitist and I support any way that you hunt as long as your ethics are intact.
Don't start talkking about "ethics." One man's "ethics" are another man's elitism. I've had people actually challenge me for carrying a rifle with a round in the chamber (apparently they saw on Saturday television somewhere that the star of some show waited until he saw a big bull roaming around..as found buy a guide on a private ranch...is the ethical way to hunt) out in the field. Horse apples. Elitists can go choke on the word "ethics" because it's a verbal weapon they use on others who don't share their particular principles.
Let's talk about RESPONSIBILITY instead.
Yes lets not talk about ethics God forbid people get a lesson on ethics. "One man's ethics are another man's elitism" Sounds about as elitist as it gets. What would you like to talk about Responsibility about? There is a reason I refuse to allow anyone in my family to hunt modern elk. Its not because I'm an elitist its just not safe IMHO. I also don't want to subject them to the lack of ethics I see during that time. Not saying everyone is unethical or irresponsible but there's enough of it that i don't want to expose my son to that.
I've been hunting elk with a rifle or muzzleloader for many years. I don't know that it's any more or less safe out there. You evidently see a lack of ethics. I contend that's rather subjective. What are we talking about. Game theft? Losing wounded game? Taking unsafe shots? claiming the high ground when there isn't any? Properly observing that one person's ethics are another person's elitism may sting a bit, but it is true.
QuoteUnlike modern or even ML, You can't just pick up your bow on opening day and kill an elk. As a result, archery has a higher percentage of dedicated hunters.
That's elitist rhetoric. Modern rifle, blackpowder and handgun hunters (I've done all three) are just as devoted to their choice, but they shouldn't have to be LIMITED to that choice because it destroys their opportunity to try something different. I don't hunt with a bow and never have because it simply doesn't interest me. Shooters enjoy the feel of a good rifle, the time spent at the loading bench, the ability to place a precision shot at distance (which is not being a lazy slob, but being a careful marksman). I've killed deer with rifles and handguns. That interests me.
This is kind of naive don't you think? I've hunted with a rifle, then switched to muzzle loader, and now I hunt with a bow. And unless you have hunted with a bow how are you gonna say whether or not it takes more skill and effort to be successfull. Well I've done all three so let me say this. In order to be LETHAL with a bow I must practise and tune my bow for at least 2 months. To do the same with a rifle it takes me maybe a day. But its usually still on from last year. And you can't even compare the skill level it takes and the amount of effort it takes to get within lethal bow range compared to lethal rifle range.
Unless you have driven a Mercedes, you haven't driven an automobile. That it? You seem to presume I've never shot a bow or considered hunting with one. I've shot a fair number of bows. Compounds, recurves and even a couple of long bows. Bowhunting, as I said, doesn't interest me. I don't own an AR-15 because the platform doesn't interest me, either. Some people would call me a "Fudd" but I don't give a rat's ass if they own a house full of ARs or bows. More power to them. And you, too. You can have my share of the available bows.QuoteBut, the undedicated and slouches tend more to stick to modern because they're lazy and it's easier. And, I'm also not saying modern hunters are lazy. I'm saying that if you ARE lazy, you're probably not going to pick archery as your tag of choice. It doesn't make us better or more worthy or make me elitist for saying so. It's just a fact of the sport.
Self-contradictory. Rifle hunters choose modern because they're lazy and it's easier, but you're not saying modern hunters are lazy. Well, which is it? You voted for it before you voted against it?
You know exactly what he meant. Rifle hunting IS EASIER!!! Nothing wrong with that and thats not what he was saying. It is a FACT that for the most part the since archery is far more time consuming than modern to be successfull, the people who are strapped for time or are lazy are not going to pick the harder method. They WILL pick the easier one. Again nothing wrong with that. If you want to do well than this is good decision making IMHO. Nothing elitist about it. Its the truth.
Rifle hunting may seem easier to slobs; the same type of person who leaves an elk and or deer running around with an arrow in its rump or gut. I've actually run across people who were road hunting with bows. Don't try to sell me on the greater devotion to the sport on the part of the bowhunter, because that dog just doesn't hunt. Each group, as he noted, has its boneheads.QuoteYou sound like you're ready to pick a fight with other hunters. I suggest that if you're really concerned for our dwindling elk opportunities that you pick anti-hunters to fight with instead. There are plenty of them out there. It's a target-rich environment. .
Some hunters deserve to have a fight poked at them, because they have gone along to get along for way too long. They walk around with their heads either in the clouds or up their rectums, thinking what they have now is just fine because it cuts down on competition and allows them a more "wilderness experience."
What about success? What about meat in the cooler? What about the next generation of hunters who deserve a lot more than being told by some twerp in Olympia or on television that disappointment is fine so long as they get to see an elk or deer prancing over the far ridge. People do not pay for disappointment. People will not pay to take their kids along when they know the odds of success are dismal; they'll see the kids stay home and play video games where at least they get to win once in a while.
But this whole argument takes us back to what I've said for years. Resource Allocation, which limits us to a weapon choice, perpetuates divisiveness among hunters, and that's deliberate. While we fight amongst ourselves, the department can do whatever it damn well pleases, whether it means cutting back seasons and opportunities; putting emphasis on wolves and "watchable" wildlife instead of putting fish in the lakes and rivers and expanding herd populations to boost success rates among the people who pay the bills.
I agree 100% with what you said above. I don't disagree at all. Very well said DAVE. I'm not pissed its just you took Pianoman's words out of context and to me you sounded very elitist. :twocents: Maybe it came off different than you intended.
I'm not an elitist, I'm a realist. And I don't believe I took his words out of context at all.
As for someone taking an elk from me that I shot.... Good luck with that.
Post by: Dave Workman on November 02, 2011, 12:24:08 PM
QUOTE DAVE WORKMANSome hunters deserve to have a fight poked at them, because they have gone along to get along for way too long. They walk around with their heads either in the clouds or up their rectums, thinking what they have now is just fine because it cuts down on competition and allows them a more "wilderness experience."
What about success? What about meat in the cooler? What about the next generation of hunters who deserve a lot more than being told by some twerp in Olympia or on television that disappointment is fine so long as they get to see an elk or deer prancing over the far ridge. People do not pay for disappointment. People will not pay to take their kids along when they know the odds of success are dismal; they'll see the kids stay home and play video games where at least they get to win once in a while.QUOTE DAVE WORKMAN
DAVE I want to touch on what you said above. I don't think that it could have been said any better than this. A copy of this message should be emailed and/or mailed to every single hunter in Washington State. We as sportsman are to blame for the loss of opportunity. Why??? BECAUSE WE DO NOTHING!!! Like you mentioned above people have their head up their rectum. They are afraid or too lazy to say anything or question the WDFW. The biggest excuse is "well lets just be thankfull for what we have." BS. This is why they keep chipping away at our seasons and opportunity. I think people settle too much. They pay all this money and don't expect anything in return except for what you said. Well at least I saw one. What a successfull year. At the end of my article I said "When people go year after year without getting anything they take up golf." Which is EXACTLY what happens. People worry about rocking the boat because they have this "well it can't get any worse" attitude but it IS ALWAYS going to get worse. History has shown us that it IS GOING to get worse. I used to fall into that. When spike only came around I thought well we have to sacrifice so it can get better again. Well guess what it still SUCKS. And what has spike only given us??? Nothing. Its given us elk to look at during the winter. So the wildlife viewing crowd has gained from it. The WDFW gets more money from special permit money. The tribal hunters get bigger bulls to hunt and the poachers have bigger bulls to hunt. The bull to cow ratio is the same if not worse in the Colockum. So again what has hunters gained from our sacrifice??? NOTHING PEOPLE!!!!
Sorry for the rant DAVE. You summed it up better than me. People need to stop being complacint they should expect more from the WDFW and should expect more from their hunting experience.
Ahhh...Spock...you have arrived at a state of pure logic!
Or something like that. And you summed it up as good as anyone. Just with different words and emotions.
Anyone who has been around the outdoors here for the past three decades will tell you I've never been afraid of rocking the boat. It's how one makes waves, and gets things accomplished.
You keep ranting ike this and spread it around. Be prepared to spread it to the Legislature. And never be afraid of sticking up for what you believe.
I wouldn't give a plugged nickel for someone who doesn't.
Post by: colockumelk on November 02, 2011, 01:01:35 PM
So I see a buck up on this hill. Its a sage brush covered hill so its pretty open. I spotted the deer from the road on my way back to camp. The buck was about 500-600 yds from the road. So I started my stalk. just as I was cresting this plateau which would put me in position for a nice 200yds shot, a group of "hunters" jumps out of their truck and proceeds to shoot at this buck. I am directly between the buck and these guys so rounds start ripping over my head. Of course they didn't check to see if they hit the buck. (They didn't, I checked) and after they had expended all of their ammo sped off.
This last year I was again coming back to camp when 4 legal bucks walk across the road. I jump out grab my bow and start a big circle. The entire time these deer fed maybe 50 yds from the road and stopped. 2 different bowhunters drove by and stopped at my brothers truck. They didn't try to push the deer or hunt them themselves. Instead they watched me attempt a stalk on those bucks.
I hope this answers your question. And for the record I still hunt modern rifle for deer. I don't know why but modern rifle for deer isn't nearly as crazy as modern rifle elk. :dunno:
Post by: Glockster on November 02, 2011, 02:04:41 PM
I hunted archery back when I could do that and join my dad in deer camp for modern...just had to buy both tags. I still only got to kill one animal. I'm 40, not 50...which is far too young to have "I remember when stories", but i guess the decline of hunting opportunity in WA has been that quick.
When they went to choose your weapon the rationale given by the "more dedicated" hunters was that they wanted the "slobs" out of their sport. ~The guys who don't , in their eyes, prepare and practice enough. The guys who's heart just wasn't in archery and the guys who used it as just another way to kill animals (to paraphrase some of the archers' arguments for resource allocation)
Well guess what. ~That was the end of me standing up for archery opportunity and I suspect that was the same decision made by the thousands of other guys who used to buy archery tags to extend their time in the woods. It's a crying shame. I used to be able to be a more "dedicated hunter" and spend time with my old man and his friends who hunted modern exclusively. I chose family over archery. I loved archery...some of my finest memories afield were late season in the 300 units. The more "dedicated" hunters and WDFW took that from me and thousands of their fellow hunters when choose your weapon became law.
You're right on one thing....giving fellow hunters grief instead of focussing our grief and anger at WDFW and anty hunters (perhaps one in the same) is a cry and shame.
Post by: demontang on November 02, 2011, 02:23:04 PM
Post by: Hilltop123 on November 02, 2011, 02:44:21 PM
Post by: gasman on November 02, 2011, 03:04:27 PM
Post by: longknife on November 02, 2011, 07:06:28 PM
But, I would never put any pressure for any of my youth to kill something. Its not all about killing to me, and my family. When we are 60 yards from a herd that stands and breaks, and cows are surrounding shootable animals, i am never upset! Was a awsome time teaching my future how to enjoy our rights, without making bad decisions if they come home empty handed. I never want them to feel disapointed, they didnt come home with anything. Especially in Washington State!
Post by: colockumelk on November 02, 2011, 07:21:20 PM