Post by: blacktailer on November 17, 2011, 08:27:54 AM
Post by: bullcanyon on November 17, 2011, 08:30:48 AM
Post by: Lcl 66 Tinner on November 17, 2011, 09:24:14 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on November 17, 2011, 11:18:00 AM
So, I would imagine this topic has been hashed out many a time so my apologies if it has. I have rifle hunted for the past 30 or so years but am definately getting a muzzleloader for deer next year. Probably won't be hunting elk and needs to be legal for this state. I would prefer something with a synthetic stock and probably stainless barrel. I was told .50 cal would probably be best? Where does a guy start in trying to decide? Sights, bullets, etc... Thanks in advance
This is an easy one for me... A Knight DISC Extreme with a Western Kit installed. It might be an overkill since the Big Horn will do a lot of the same but the DISC offers some really nice enhancements.
OK… but remember this is just my personal opinion, which in my house seems to carry no weight at all!
Knight over TC… for me this one is not to difficult… The only TC that would be legal to hunt with during ML season is a slow 1/48 twist in the bore. Not that the 1/48 is that bad but it can limit what you can shoot effectively – so I pass on that. If you were able to use a regular TC like a Triumph to hunt with vs. Knight – that would be a little tougher decision but again one I could easily make as I have both guns and much prefer the Knight.
Now then… Big Horn vs. DISC Extreme… There are several reasons that I prefer the DISC vs. the Big Horn and it has nothing to do with accuracy as both guns are or can be deadly accurate. For me it comes down to two main things… Reliability and versatility, and again remember this is just my opinion, I much prefer the semi-closed breech area the DISC provides vs. the large open breech area of the Big Horn. As an example I would offer this scenario… when I hunt with the Big Horn, or MK 85 in my case, I always have to pay attention to what debris have fallen into the open breech. It is so easy for that area to collect many things such as Tamarack needles, pieces of small sticks, rain, snow, and etc. I can bet you can think of some other stuff that could/can get in that area while hunting. Then! Will any of these interfere with the action of the hammer and possibly stop ignition.
With the DISC most of these problems are gone with the semi-closed breech area. In addition if you get the correct #11 nipple and have the cap installed correctly on the nipple you are almost water proof. Any worry out the door. The other thing the new Western bolt with the bolt hood provides even more protection to the breech area…
In this picture you can see how much more protected the breech area is but yet complies with Washington, Idaho, and Oregon rules…
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010014.jpg&hash=da3cd154ab3e2a545c4ac3ae735f9c99f5f1163b)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F9-23ElkGun.jpg&hash=3b1021dc99745904aa9dbb576278457e357b175a)
I also believe the DISC offers you the versatility to change the gun back to 209 ignition, drop a scope on and have a viable ML that can be used in other seasons… (I am thinking that Washington has other draw opportunities for ML hunts and you can use a more modern ML). I do not even hunt with a centerfire any longer just tack up my DISC to a modern ML and I hunt rifle season with it…
Hope some of this helps… any other questions just give a shout…
We have some of the same rules that you do during the ML season so for a sight I use the Williams FP peep sight with a fiber optic front sight with a Fire Sight Hood.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010002a.jpg&hash=a8c01d3ac26b53cfa02d856ff4d1213e112df7aa)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FFPComposite.jpg&hash=de127770bea0b68f1b8bf0d37c22dfdc8c94d40a)
Bullets… I would offer two choices… first choice would be a Knight Bloodline .452-250 grain bullet and second choice would be a Speer .452-250 gain HP Deep Curl.
This is a 300 grain but the 250 is about the same…
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FCompositeBloodline.jpg&hash=f0771c8199c9548be7959c5a8dda18f2766ba1ed)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBloodlineBullets.png&hash=9b21d28da321776fcfe678eb258dd5d93e070499)
These are some pictures of the Speer Deep Curls. They are a bonded bullet with controlled expansion.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGoldDotPerformance.jpg&hash=1bca29cd7e1d4979939785c948d5e1314a63ccff)
This might help explain the Speer Gold Dot now called a Deep Curl
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGoldDot300a.jpg&hash=850d705188a140149b0bf0cbaff9f87ee4db2298)
Hope some of this might help….
Post by: blacktailer on November 17, 2011, 02:07:31 PM
Post by: Curly on November 17, 2011, 02:25:53 PM
You could always go with a true traditional muzzleloader. There is no difference between the range of both styles and you dont have to worry about if its legal in the state. What I mean about not worrying is, the traditional style have exposed ignition source and open sights. The new style has so many opitions that you can be illegal in a minute The traditional styles are easier to clean and you dont need a tool box for all the tools that you need for the new ones. I'm a big fan of the traditional muzzleloader not any of this inline BS if you cant tell.
I tend to agree.
One idea you could look into is if you can find a used TC Renegade and replace the factory barrel with a Green Mountain barrel (50 cal and 1:28 twist). Then you'll have the more modern 1:28 twist barrel and the much simpler lock. I have an Austin & Halleck inline and a 54 cal TC Renegade..........I've been thinking about buying a replacement barrel, for some time now, for the Renegade. The barrel (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/133344/green-mountain-thompson-center-hawken-muzzleloader-interchangeable-barrel-system-50-caliber-1-octagon-1-in-28-twist-28-percussion-1137-steel-blue) costs about $200.
Post by: groundhog on November 17, 2011, 03:23:05 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on November 21, 2011, 04:16:34 PM
Post by: BOOM!! on November 21, 2011, 06:12:44 PM
Disc extreme by far is the best muzzle loader I have owned. That's what I would suggest. Sabotloader gave you all the info you need on the gun
:yeah: Sabotloader turned me onto the knight extreme and I am having a blast shooting them.
Post by: Wacenturion on November 22, 2011, 07:35:34 AM
Ditto on the T/C Renegade in .54 caliber. Great guns, irregardless of twist. I have a renegade I bought in the mid 70's, a couple Bighorns and a couple Wolverines. All are dependable with proper care and the right caps.
Ditto on the Williams peep site. Put the same sight on my Wolverine camo/ blued...only blued in color on that sight. Google egunparts......much cheaper....$35.03, instead of $65-$80. The blued one is the same price. A whole lot cheaper than anywhere else. Here's the link. By the way, I just looked and they increased their price from $35.03 to $35.10. Damn economy. :chuckle:
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Search.aspx?catid=0&filter=881130
Good luck.
Post by: high country on November 22, 2011, 07:49:36 AM
Post by: high country on November 22, 2011, 07:55:45 AM
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5802057/1
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on November 22, 2011, 08:01:47 AM
Post by: roadwhore on November 22, 2011, 10:51:45 PM
Post by: Salmo on November 25, 2011, 07:15:37 PM
Post by: fire*guy on November 26, 2011, 07:54:34 AM
Post by: blacktailer on November 26, 2011, 06:26:24 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on November 26, 2011, 06:52:17 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on November 26, 2011, 07:27:09 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on November 26, 2011, 08:18:56 PM
Well, I went and picked up a S/S Knight Wolverine. I have a lot of learning to do. The price was right. Seems like it will be a good starter gun form the money. Thanks Wacenturion for the link on the peepsights. I am assuming they much it much easier to shoot up to 100 yards vs. the fiber optic open sights???
Guess it would come down to personal preference. I like the peep site. Easier for me. Most like that Williams peep on their Knight's. It's just what ever fits you best vision wise.
The Wolverine is a great gun. Basically everything is interchangeable with the Bighorn, so very similar.
Good luck, you'll enjoy muzzle-loading.
Post by: kerrdog on November 27, 2011, 06:42:49 PM
Does the disk extreme have that threading thing too? Or does the little handle on the back pull back, click, and go back forward like a coleman pellet gun?
Post by: Sabotloader on November 27, 2011, 07:47:44 PM
I'm curious about the disk extreme now. (I've got a TC NW Explorer) I just checked out the Bighorn at Sportsman's Warehouse and was confused. The threading with the red paint and the big open breech area seemed......unfamiliar.....and uncool. I kept waiting for the sales-guy to slide the bolt forward to make it ready to shoot. I'm like, "that's it? It just stays open like that?" :dunno:
With the MK 85, Knight Wolverine, and the Big Horn the hammer is pilled to the rear and remains in that position (ready to fire) So the area is wide open...
Quote
Does the disk extreme have that threading thing too?
The threading thing I think you are talking about is the "secondary safety". And both the guns do have the secondary safety... they also have a trigger safety...
Quote
Or does the little handle on the back pull back, click, and go back forward like a coleman pellet gun?
Not sure about that...
The Extreme is a bolt gun and works completely differently.... this is the Extreme with the new Western Kit installed. I is in the ready to fire position..
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FArchive%2FP1010014.jpg&hash=4776b8034d4c3eaa1b2b57c1781d38a190430028)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FArchive%2F2011WConv-2.jpg&hash=f7b409afea82544f0aa3fb5c1e11aa60e1ca07ec)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FArchive%2F2011WConv-1.jpg&hash=80a7efd65636fc4f71c7e0e5bdccb681ad634033)
Post by: kerrdog on November 28, 2011, 07:38:34 PM
Post by: moosedrool on November 29, 2011, 01:20:26 PM
Now I need to get more essentials.....
Post by: Sabotloader on November 29, 2011, 01:30:22 PM
Knight just got more of the Disc Extremes with the camo thumbhole stock. I just ordered one along with their range rod. :tup:
Now I need to get more essentials.....
Here you go moosedrool... go overboard like this...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FMLTools2.jpg&hash=aff349a44165525c339c96356e29c0eeeddabaa4)
Post by: moosedrool on November 29, 2011, 01:36:01 PM
Post by: 270Shooter on November 29, 2011, 01:43:51 PM
Post by: HUNT on December 27, 2011, 04:16:46 PM
Are bullets harder to find for the 52? Is your selection pretty limited?
What are the advantages/disadvantages of either one?
Post by: bobcat on December 27, 2011, 04:20:41 PM
Post by: gotshot on December 27, 2011, 04:33:29 PM
I have a TC Black Diamond. Dropped everyhing I have shot with it. 3 bulls and 2 bucks. Nice ajustable trigger. Shoot with Precision sabots. Wouldn't trade it for anything. :tup::yeah:
Post by: Sabotloader on December 27, 2011, 05:08:20 PM
I think I am sold on a new knight disk extreme. Just need to decide 52 or 50 cal. and whther to go with the thumbhole stock or not.
Are bullets harder to find for the 52? Is your selection pretty limited?
What are the advantages/disadvantages of either one?
The 52 is really viewed by many as an odd caliber, but I would suggest to you that there might be some real advantages. With the 52 you shoot real rifle bullets (45-70) or even larger .475 if they might be needed.
Lehigh/Bloodlines offers 3 .458 bullets for them 220 gr. - 275 grain - 300 grain. Other companies offer 325 - 350 & 500.
The 52 comes with a 1-26 twist rate to handle the long heavy bullets or even conicals.
A possible down fall is that Knight owns the rights the the 52 caliber sabot and they can only be purchased from them. + they have the .475 sabot that is also a excellent sabot.
The 52 easily handles 150 grains of any black powder or BP sub including T7 and BH with a 300 grain sabotted bullet.
I have one actually 2 of them one is a Big Horn, they are my dedicated elk guns, although I have shot whitetail with them.
Thumbhole or not to thumbhole.... I never ever thought I would like a thumbhole for hunting - off the bench they are great but hunting!??? Well I made the switch to thumbhole and for myself I will stay there.. for my it makes shooting accurately much more comfortable.
With all that said the 50 cal remains the most versitile.
Post by: BOOM!! on December 27, 2011, 06:44:39 PM
ain't she pretty?
Post by: Kowsrule30 on December 28, 2011, 12:53:45 AM
Post by: HUNT on December 28, 2011, 07:36:52 AM
I love my knight extreme with TH stock. It is so comfortable to shoot. (Thanks sabotloader :tup: )
ain't she pretty?
I like the camo pattern on yours. Is that an older model? I didnt see it on their website.