Post by: muzbuster on December 03, 2011, 02:01:42 PM
A few years ago (4-5), after repeated requests, I went elk hunting in the Nile unit with my Stepdad and his group who have hunted the area for since before the spike only and point system . All of them had always put in for the special bull & cow tags (as first and only choice area) resulting in drawing a few cow tags over the years between them, they were growing frustrated with none of them ever getting a bull tag. At that time my Stepdad and Stepbrother had some 6 points each, and once again didn't draw a special tag. So opening day comes and we run into to young guys (both in thier early 20's) come walking up to us asking if we had seen any big bulls as they had drawn tags for the area and didnt know where to go! After asking why they put in for the area not knowing where to go they said they had just thrown the hunt # down as a 3rd choice. Then my Stepdad ask's how many points they had..both replied at the sametime..2.
Now, the question is how can someone with only 2 points and a #3 choice for that area get drawn over someone with 6 points and first choice for the area?? Any thoughts?
It just doesn't seem right to me.
Post by: huntnphool on December 03, 2011, 02:05:50 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on December 03, 2011, 02:11:23 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on December 03, 2011, 02:34:14 PM
As far a drawning with your 3rd choice. Once your name is drawn they look at every choice starting with #1, before they move on to the next applicant.
Post by: huntnphool on December 03, 2011, 03:00:17 PM
If you have six points your name goes in the hat 6 times. If I have 2 points my name goes into the hat 2 times.
Thats not true Bigshooter, if you have 6 points your name goes in 36 times, if you have 2 points your name goes in 4 times. ;)
Post by: boneaddict on December 03, 2011, 03:13:09 PM
Thats a preference point system. We have a weighted bonus point system. As Rob pointed out, the weighted portion comes from them squaring your points so your name is in the hat more and more as you build points BUT you still ahve a random chance at drawing.
Post by: bigpaw on December 03, 2011, 03:41:29 PM
Post by: boneaddict on December 03, 2011, 05:33:48 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2011, 05:48:02 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 03, 2011, 05:52:14 PM
In our system everyone has a chance, and no one has a guarantee. That is the good and bad of it.
Yep, that about sums it up.
Post by: seth30 on December 03, 2011, 06:03:58 PM
Post by: buckhorn2 on December 03, 2011, 06:13:13 PM
Post by: SkookumHntr on December 03, 2011, 06:28:10 PM
The unfair part for me is the guys who get the 10 points for turning someone in for a violation. Not that it is;nt right but I don;t like to feel penalized for not catching someone to go into a drawing against someone who has 20-30 or as some even 40 points does;nt seem fair. I think they should maybe be in a separate drawing or something it just seems unfair to for someone to have 14 points and have put in every year and someone jumping ahead with 20 just because they saw something another person did;nt.-I feel the same way! It burns me that people can jump ahead of me in points for turning guys in! Not that im against them getting opportunity but they should be in a different drawing/hunt or at least not be able to have more points than the guys that put in since 96! :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on December 03, 2011, 06:29:47 PM
The unfair part for me is the guys who get the 10 points for turning someone in for a violation. Not that it is;nt right but I don;t like to feel penalized for not catching someone to go into a drawing against someone who has 20-30 or as some even 40 points does;nt seem fair. I think they should maybe be in a separate drawing or something it just seems unfair to for someone to have 14 points and have put in every year and someone jumping ahead with 20 just because they saw something another person did;nt.-I feel the same way! It burns me that people can jump ahead of me in points for turning guys in! Not that im against them getting opportunity but they should be in a different drawing/hunt or at least not be able to have more than the guys that put in since 96! :twocents:
I think just 1 or 2 points for turning a poacher in would be more fair. 10 points does seem excessive. And actually, I'm not sure it always is 10 points. I think it's supposed to be that you can receive "up to 10 points".
Post by: trophyhunt on December 03, 2011, 06:53:52 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2011, 06:58:11 PM
One other complaint I have is not being able to split up your points or being able to apply only a certain amount of your points to your hunt choices. It's worth putting up all my soon to be 17 points for the tag I want, but it would be nice if I had the choice to only put up half of them and not lose all at once. I know it sounds like too much for them to handle but it would be nice.CO worked that way for a few years but discontinued it.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 03, 2011, 06:59:50 PM
Do you know why? I wonder what the problem was?One other complaint I have is not being able to split up your points or being able to apply only a certain amount of your points to your hunt choices. It's worth putting up all my soon to be 17 points for the tag I want, but it would be nice if I had the choice to only put up half of them and not lose all at once. I know it sounds like too much for them to handle but it would be nice.CO worked that way for a few years but discontinued it.
Post by: muzbuster on December 04, 2011, 06:37:34 AM
:bash:
Post by: Bigshooter on December 05, 2011, 04:52:40 PM
If you have six points your name goes in the hat 6 times. If I have 2 points my name goes into the hat 2 times.
Thats not true Bigshooter, if you have 6 points your name goes in 36 times, if you have 2 points your name goes in 4 times. ;)
Yeah, I know. But I didn't want to explain that. And I thought most people knew anyways.
Post by: longashes on December 05, 2011, 04:57:03 PM
Where do we find out how many points we have ... I've been putting in for another go at "Greenwater" for eighth years now with no permits. Shouldn't I have allot of points in the bank?
Post by: Bigshooter on December 05, 2011, 04:59:31 PM
Do you know why? I wonder what the problem was?One other complaint I have is not being able to split up your points or being able to apply only a certain amount of your points to your hunt choices. It's worth putting up all my soon to be 17 points for the tag I want, but it would be nice if I had the choice to only put up half of them and not lose all at once. I know it sounds like too much for them to handle but it would be nice.CO worked that way for a few years but discontinued it.
I believe it was only for one year that CO did that. It was called point banking. It was to try and get guys that had a lot of points built up to use them and ease point creep. The reason that I read they haven't done it again is because very few people with a lot of points took advantage of it.
Post by: Woodchuck on December 05, 2011, 05:00:57 PM
Stupid question alert ...You should have 8 now and will have 9 when you submit next year. If you submit on-line it will tell you how many points.
Where do we find out how many points we have ... I've been putting in for another go at "Greenwater" for eighth years now with no permits. Shouldn't I have allot of points in the bank?
Post by: spikehunter on December 05, 2011, 07:52:04 PM
Post by: sled on December 05, 2011, 08:01:41 PM
What choice you put down doesn't matter, what matters is when your number is picked. The number of guys with 1 to 8 points by far out number the guys with a bunch of points. When someone is picked they go down the line of their choices untill they either draw or get not selected. I've had the agony of defeat for 16 years while guys with 2, 4, and 6 points took all 3 tags I was applying for a couple years ago so I understand your anger, but I'm done complaining(maby) too many on here will tell you to apply for an easier tag. I hope they changed the quality tags to guys with 8 or more points only. :twocents:I like the 8 or more points idea.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on December 05, 2011, 08:02:26 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 05, 2011, 08:06:37 PM
Post by: sled on December 05, 2011, 08:10:31 PM
Post by: Atroxus on December 05, 2011, 11:27:12 PM
Post by: groundhog on December 06, 2011, 09:20:27 AM
I have max points and I say the hell with the present system. Lets forget about points and go back to any bull like it was 17 years ago or 3 point or five point minimum. I know it would only take a year or two to kill all the big bulls but at least everyone will get a crack at them. It is better than letting the Indians and the wolves get em all.
Post by: Bob33 on December 06, 2011, 09:50:21 AM
Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.You are correct.
Odds to draw a quality tag in Washington are extremely low, even with a lot of points. When you have 10 permits and 3000 applicants, 2990 applicants won't get drawn. Points increase the odds, but the chance of getting drawn for some of the best tags is still very low. You might go from 1 in 5000 to 1 in 100. And yes, the guy with one lotto ticket wins sometimes!
Post by: Curly on December 06, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
they can shove the point system up their ....well you know :chuckle: :o
:yeah:
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on December 06, 2011, 10:06:13 AM
Washington State has the highest number of Elk hunters in relation to Elk numbers, yet there are places that still have winter-kill and feeding programs, along with WDFW herd reduction :dunno:
I have been applying for permits since before the point system, still no OIL, and with the price for one now, not sure if I will ever, as I most likely will not be able to afford $330 + fuel to scout, time off work, and all other related expenses, with the price increase the odds of drawing might go up.
But I have been drawn for Elk, (Observatory ), 3 times, once the first year and the other 2 times with 6 points.
Been drawn for Deer, 4 times.
It might seem unfair, but it is a lottery
Post by: lokidog on December 06, 2011, 10:20:13 AM
I like the fact that even a new, first time hunter has a chance at drawing a tag. The worst part of it here is that the way WDFW runs things, there is less opportunity even though many of us have a lot of points built up. However, I have to admit I am one of those butt heads that got drawn for a great tag once with only one point... Margaret archery 2001.
Post by: Curly on December 06, 2011, 10:30:43 AM
Post by: Branden on December 06, 2011, 10:33:16 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on December 06, 2011, 11:39:38 AM
Give handicapped and over 65 access to getting behind some gates, but limit number partners (eliminate someone taking advantage by getting "grampa" to hunt and bringing the whole family)
Post by: YellowDog on December 06, 2011, 12:04:08 PM
Personally I don't bother putting in for drawings, though I may start putting in for OIL tags eventually. I view them kinda like the lottery. Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.
If you have not already built a bunch of points in the OIL drawings it might not be worth it to start doing so now. By the numbers, you actually have better odds putting in for the raffle tags than in the permit system. However, you still will have a chance if you do put in with only 1 point in the OIL permit drawings so I guess any chance is better than none.
Post by: Atroxus on December 06, 2011, 12:24:00 PM
Personally I don't bother putting in for drawings, though I may start putting in for OIL tags eventually. I view them kinda like the lottery. Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.
If you have not already built a bunch of points in the OIL drawings it might not be worth it to start doing so now. By the numbers, you actually have better odds putting in for the raffle tags than in the permit system. However, you still will have a chance if you do put in with only 1 point in the OIL permit drawings so I guess any chance is better than none.
Yeah you are probably right about my chances for an OIL drawing....but then again, like the lottery you can't win if you don't play. ;)
Post by: doyourtime89 on December 06, 2011, 03:43:22 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 06, 2011, 03:53:27 PM
I believe if you run the numbers, money is better spent now buying raffle or lotto tickets for most of the highest quality permits in WA. If you win the mega-millions, you could buy the governor's tag (or any number of outfitted hunts in other states) with the money.Personally I don't bother putting in for drawings, though I may start putting in for OIL tags eventually. I view them kinda like the lottery. Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.
If you have not already built a bunch of points in the OIL drawings it might not be worth it to start doing so now. By the numbers, you actually have better odds putting in for the raffle tags than in the permit system. However, you still will have a chance if you do put in with only 1 point in the OIL permit drawings so I guess any chance is better than none.
Yeah you are probably right about my chances for an OIL drawing....but then again, like the lottery you can't win if you don't play. ;)
Mtn Goat permit: something like 1 in 1000 odds! The odds of winning a raffle or lotto can't be much worse, can they?
Post by: Atroxus on December 06, 2011, 04:35:03 PM
I believe if you run the numbers, money is better spent now buying raffle or lotto tickets for most of the highest quality permits in WA. If you win the mega-millions, you could buy the governor's tag (or any number of outfitted hunts in other states) with the money.Personally I don't bother putting in for drawings, though I may start putting in for OIL tags eventually. I view them kinda like the lottery. Someone who buys $50 worth of random pick lotto numbers has marginally better odds of buying a winning ticket compared to someone who only buys 2, but the overall odds of winning are still ridiculously low for both.
If you have not already built a bunch of points in the OIL drawings it might not be worth it to start doing so now. By the numbers, you actually have better odds putting in for the raffle tags than in the permit system. However, you still will have a chance if you do put in with only 1 point in the OIL permit drawings so I guess any chance is better than none.
Yeah you are probably right about my chances for an OIL drawing....but then again, like the lottery you can't win if you don't play. ;)
Mtn Goat permit: something like 1 in 1000 odds! The odds of winning a raffle or lotto can't be much worse, can they?
Actually the lotto odds are FAR worse then most people realize. I saw something on the news awhile back and if I recall correctly your odds of getting struck by lightning are "better" than the odds of hitting all the numbers on a mega millions jackpot.
Post by: Bob33 on December 06, 2011, 04:37:27 PM
Thanks. You know that could also written "Actually the odds of getting a Washington quality permit are FAR worse then most people realize. I saw something on the news awhile back and if I recall correctly your odds of getting struck by lightning are "better" than the odds of drawing a Washington OIL permit or Blue Mountains elk permit." :chuckle:
Oh well; we can always dream.
Post by: big wood on December 06, 2011, 08:43:47 PM
Post by: doyourtime89 on December 07, 2011, 12:14:21 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 07, 2011, 12:20:29 PM
What is max points? How many points do you max out at?
There is no such thing as "max points". I think what people mean when they use that term is that they have the most points possible because they have been applying since the beginning of the point system (first year was 1996).