Post by: KillBilly on December 06, 2011, 07:38:37 PM
I am not looking for arguments, just good ideas that might be plausible solutions to what I see as an almost impossisble task.
Wolf Plan & WDFW definition of a successful breeding pair:
(a male and female with 2 or more pups that survive to Dec. 31)
Take into consideration that:
Packs establish territories and defend them from trespassing wolves. Territory sizes usually average about 200 to 400 square miles in the western United States. From late April until September, pack activity is centered at or near den or rendezvous sites, as adults hunt and bring food back to the pups.
Post by: wraithen on December 06, 2011, 07:41:01 PM
Post by: KillBilly on December 06, 2011, 07:41:07 PM
Post by: 6x6in6 on December 06, 2011, 07:44:03 PM
Collars and distinctive markings are about the only 2 I can think of.
No matter what the method it's going to cost a lot to be a 3 year wolf sitter.
Post by: KillBilly on December 06, 2011, 07:47:27 PM
Collars. RFID microchips?
Fair question-not argument.....
You haven't explained how you are going to find a pack and identify a BP. Remember, WDFW thinks they can do it. How would you start and how much of your time do you think it will take?
Post by: wraithen on December 06, 2011, 07:52:42 PM
Post by: KillBilly on December 06, 2011, 07:54:02 PM
So far the only way I can see it happening is if they can successfully trap and collar both parents and pups. Of course the pups collars would have to be changed as they grow. If not collared then they would be very hard to tell which set of parents they belong to. 3 years is a long time even to track one breeding pair let alone locate and track multiple BPs.
Ok, RFID/Microchip...good idea, no worry about fit changes as the pups grow.
how much travel is involved? Do I have other responsibilities to keep up? December is cold... brrr.
How practical is it to believe that I can get into a denning area in late Sept. early Oct. and chip/collar the right family? Wolves look a lot alike and a bunch of pups running around and playing... when they start running with the pack is it going to be easier to trap and collar the right 2 pups that go with the correct parents?
You can see I am confused as to how they are going to do it. Todays trappers are having difficulty trapping sighted wolves to collar them
Post by: denali on December 06, 2011, 07:59:30 PM
Post by: KillBilly on December 06, 2011, 08:02:58 PM
Drones ( I'm serious) not the armed ones of course, they wold give you the ability to stay over an area for an extended period of time, thermal-photo-video-gps- RIFD, now some one smart figure out how to pay for it. :dunno:
I'm still stuck on accurately capturing the BP and pups for your drones to track. All the ground work is what is going to hurt us... lack of money equals lack of personell.
Post by: wraithen on December 06, 2011, 08:05:51 PM
The problem with the rfid microplant is its not cheap and the range is virtually nil. You would have to get pretty close to them to find them so you would constantly have to be near them. Unless that technology has gotten a lot better and they can talk to the chip long range via satellite. If it's short range you're basically remotely chasing any wolf that leaves the pack. The other challenge is the lone wolf that strikes out and moves hundreds of miles away.
Just found a new one that has just over a mile range so babysitters are needed. Seems like collars are the way to go :-(
Post by: KillBilly on December 06, 2011, 08:06:47 PM
Would've started YEARS ago and I would trap and dart them using bait whenever possible. If I had the dough I would involve helo's but that's probably not on the table. I would attempt to track every single wolf. You never know when a few leave the pack to make their own bp and if they're already collared. Recollaring pups wouldn't be too difficult. Factor in a small amount of elastic in the middle of excess material in the collar and you wouldn't have to recollar quite as soon. If I were WA and using their brains? I would just wait until 15 bp's sat on the steps in olympia for 3 years.
That's funny :chuckle: except those 15 BP would be 250+ wolves in three years.... :bash:
Post by: buckfvr on December 06, 2011, 08:08:03 PM
Oh yea, we should all be pressuring our district legislators to introduce new law that would deal with the up coming litigation storm that will hit once the 3 year period ends.
Post by: KillBilly on December 06, 2011, 08:10:03 PM
I'm liking this game. And its almost bedtime. *censored* you killbilly!
The problem with the rfid microplant is its not cheap and the range is virtually nil. You would have to get pretty close to them to find them so you would constantly have to be near them. Unless that technology has gotten a lot better and they can talk to the chip long range via satellite. If it's short range you're basically remotely chasing any wolf that leaves the pack. The other challenge is the lone wolf that strikes out and moves hundreds of miles away.
Just found a new one that has just over a mile range so babysitters are needed. Seems like collars are the way to go :-(
RFID is certainly capable. We can track Airplane parts that are on the ground or in the air via RFID. We can even find them by serial number while in flight... aahhh but they aren't wolves. :chuckle:
Post by: KillBilly on December 06, 2011, 08:11:03 PM
Look for the rules of pack distribution and territories to change dramatically as they eat their way through north east wa. THe afore mentioned rules and territory size is based on food source availability.....I do believe packs will have to move more frequently in this state than they do in the larger less populas areas of the other states. :twocents:
good point
Post by: wraithen on December 06, 2011, 08:11:10 PM
Post by: KillBilly on December 06, 2011, 08:16:20 PM
Ok, I would also use all that fed money for this crap to track the wolves instead of pour it into the general fund. There's a chunk of money to start with.
WDFW has already admitted that they don't know where the funding is going to come from.
Post by: seth30 on December 06, 2011, 08:18:14 PM
Post by: wraithen on December 06, 2011, 08:19:28 PM
Post by: KillBilly on December 06, 2011, 08:23:32 PM
I think Killbilly is pointing out that the WDFW has no plan on how to do this, let alone how they are going to fund it. Consider that they have "Identified" 5 BP's/packs. There are probably easily 3-5 more, that even the WDFW knows about but have not met the 3 year timeline of successfully breeding. If this is close, then we will have our 15 BP's within 2 to 3 years, however we then will have to wait for 1-2 years for them to be identified... then 3 years for them to be "Successful BP's. By then we will actually have (Going from memory here as I can't find the papwerwork) gone from 15 BP's in 5 years to over 20 BP's...... then throw in court injunctions for 2-3 more years... and we make Idaho look like a paradise.
Not to nit pick... but to clarify. The official definition of a pack is at least 2 wolves that travel together. They can be 2 males or 2 females and be considered a pack. In effect you could have several hundred wolves and only have 5BP... just an example.
Post by: wraithen on December 06, 2011, 08:27:36 PM
My turn to ask a Q. Is more than one female in a pack allowed to breed?
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 06, 2011, 08:48:02 PM
I have sat and watched/ Read/Listened to all the Wolf postings and read all the threads as to what everyone thinks needs to be done.
First there is no one who has an accurate guess as to just how many wolves that we have in this State. Be it the WDFG or the Do-Gooders who are promoting them, the USFWS, or the members of this forum.
They don't count the transit wolves who cross borders either from Idaho to Washington or From Canada to the US. Even though the animals in question are preying on the resources here.
If the season was opened tomorrow morning in this State to a Tag that could be used 365 days we would not effect the outcome one instance. We will never as sportsman do significant damage to the resident numbers. For every wolf reported how many are never seen?
When the wolves were eliminated from the lower 48 it was due to Aerial gunners and a product call 1080 which had a tremendous side effect on what it also killed.
I can say a prime example of the ineffectiveness would be to look at the coyotes we have with all the hunting pressure they get how bad have we decimated their number's?
Post by: wraithen on December 06, 2011, 08:56:20 PM
Post by: CedarPants on December 06, 2011, 09:09:21 PM
As to ideas on how to track a breeding pair and their pups for 3 years .... this is honestly constructive and not meant to be anything but. Have they been able to do this in Idaho, Montana, or Wyoming? It seems if they have been successful in doing so elsewhere it is only because there are so many wolves that they simply just have to pick the easiest 15 packs to locate and go from there. I honestly don't know how to track 15 BP's until there are WAY more than that present
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 06, 2011, 09:26:09 PM
Post by: wraithen on December 06, 2011, 09:28:53 PM
Post by: Special T on December 06, 2011, 09:30:27 PM
Post by: rebal69972 on December 06, 2011, 10:23:15 PM
Post by: jager on December 06, 2011, 10:41:53 PM
Wolves can and do suffer from PTSD, just like people.
Wolves have no place to hide, they’re being monitored as if they were common criminals. Wearing a radio collar is like being under house arrest. The authorities know where you are at all times.
Collaring wolves is out of control. Wolves have enough problems, they don’t need to be hounded by biologists or Wildlife Services to further some nebulous agenda.
What right do we have to chase wild wolves around for collaring? Wolves don’t belong to us. Let them live in peace for godsakes!!
I sure hope these morons don't try to sue on behalf of the wolves.
Post by: high country on December 06, 2011, 10:53:12 PM
Post by: KillBilly on December 07, 2011, 06:17:03 AM
KillBilly, the way to document wolves and thier travels is with a GPS data logger collar. they are made by several companies. Radio collars like the old school Hound collars require too much time to document travel, GPS tracking collars tracked by sat-alights cost too much, but data loggers get gps coordinates daily weekly etc save's the data and then transmits once a month. This reduces costs, increases batterie life, and provides more complete data. they cost about 3k ea and cost a bit for the monitoring... usually done by NOAA sat-alights... in order to determine BPs you would have to find them put a collar on, determine a area during denning season then collar the BP's. Now collars only last about every 6-9 months so in order to get 3 yrs in a row is difficult. getting general loation during denning will only get you close so you can take photos and do a better job of documentation. The real question that should be asked is what has other states required info wise to establish BP... that is likely a GOV definition.
There are still lots of small details added to your scenario that must be addressed. the pups must be collared also and somehow identified to the parents to prevent confusion or it will become a guessing game. after dec. 31st the collars need to be removed from the pups and made ready for the parents next years pups... mind boggling to me. maybe I am overthinking it but a job worth doing is worth doing right.
Post by: rasbo on December 07, 2011, 06:20:43 AM
Post by: KillBilly on December 07, 2011, 06:21:33 AM
Is there any legal grounds for an organization to demand the WDFW provide detailed information on how they plan to locate, monitor, confirm, then track these BP's ... let alone fund all of this? I can't for the life of me understand how they can just shove this plan down our throats without having to show how they intend to make sure the plan works. I would think legally, they would be required to show this type of information if asked to by a court of law.
As to ideas on how to track a breeding pair and their pups for 3 years .... this is honestly constructive and not meant to be anything but. Have they been able to do this in Idaho, Montana, or Wyoming? It seems if they have been successful in doing so elsewhere it is only because there are so many wolves that they simply just have to pick the easiest 15 packs to locate and go from there. I honestly don't know how to track 15 BP's until there are WAY more than that present
well they have brought a lawsuit against the liquor initiative so why couldn't we bring a lawsuit against the state for accepting the wolf plan? You all know the answer to that.... we don't have the numbers or dedication to fund it or support it. Still an option though, I hope someone has an idea that will prove me wrong here... maybe Popeshawnpaul will do it free gratus. :dunno:
Post by: KillBilly on December 07, 2011, 06:25:35 AM
We may need to help the state with a comprehensive process for doing it.
and this is good conversation so far.
Post by: KillBilly on December 07, 2011, 06:31:23 AM
So rfid chips then. Pull some of civil air patrol off highway ticket writing and get them used in tracking wolves. Every batch of pups that appears and survives each year confirms a BP no?
My turn to ask a Q. Is more than one female in a pack allowed to breed?
Here is your answer Wraithen:
Breeding Biology
Wolves are sexually mature when two years old, but seldom breed until they are older. In each pack, the dominant male and female are usually the only ones to breed. They prevent subordinate adults from mating by physically harassing them. Thus, a pack generally produces only one litter each year, averaging five to six pups.
Post by: Woodchuck on December 07, 2011, 06:43:25 AM
Post by: CedarPants on December 07, 2011, 06:45:10 AM
Is there any legal grounds for an organization to demand the WDFW provide detailed information on how they plan to locate, monitor, confirm, then track these BP's ... let alone fund all of this? I can't for the life of me understand how they can just shove this plan down our throats without having to show how they intend to make sure the plan works. I would think legally, they would be required to show this type of information if asked to by a court of law.
As to ideas on how to track a breeding pair and their pups for 3 years .... this is honestly constructive and not meant to be anything but. Have they been able to do this in Idaho, Montana, or Wyoming? It seems if they have been successful in doing so elsewhere it is only because there are so many wolves that they simply just have to pick the easiest 15 packs to locate and go from there. I honestly don't know how to track 15 BP's until there are WAY more than that present
well they have brought a lawsuit against the liquor initiative so why couldn't we bring a lawsuit against the state for accepting the wolf plan? You all know the answer to that.... we don't have the numbers or dedication to fund it or support it. Still an option though, I hope someone has an idea that will prove me wrong here... maybe Popeshawnpaul will do it free gratus. :dunno:
I was thinking not so much suing them for adopting the plan (that won't get us anywhere), but filing some sort of injunction or somehow going about having them served with a court order demanding they detail exactly how they plan on going about all of this confirmation and documentation process. This plan should be transparent to the public, and it has been anything such. There has got to be some sort of recourse we can utilize as a group in this regard.
Reminder, you have been assigned to monitor 1 BP for 3 years. How would you do it and be deads nuts accurate.
We may need to help the state with a comprehensive process for doing it.
and this is good conversation so far.
The only way I can fathom monitoring 1 BP for 3 years and being dead nuts accurate is to go the Tim Treadwell route and dedicating all of your time to actually physically living amongst the wolves, like Treadwell did with the grizzlies in Alaska. He collected some pretty good data and knew the bears by name and where they would be at any given time.
Of course it should be noted that Treadwell was in fact eaten by these bears
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 07, 2011, 06:55:46 AM
Some excerpts I found on a pro wolf website...
Wolves can and do suffer from PTSD, just like people.
Wolves have no place to hide, they’re being monitored as if they were common criminals. Wearing a radio collar is like being under house arrest. The authorities know where you are at all times.
Collaring wolves is out of control. Wolves have enough problems, they don’t need to be hounded by biologists or Wildlife Services to further some nebulous agenda.
What right do we have to chase wild wolves around for collaring? Wolves don’t belong to us. Let them live in peace for godsakes!!
I sure hope these morons don't try to sue on behalf of the wolves.
All I can say to the greenies is : Peace, love, dope. Love beads and bongo drums !!
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 07, 2011, 07:30:21 AM
Idaho has been pretty successful trapping near denning or rendevous sites and can capture adults or pups that way. Once you have a collar on an adult you can find the pack it's associated with via aircraft. If they disperse or change packs you have to go after the new pack too. Pups can't be collared effectively. Ear tags are a decent visual marker and sometimes can be spotted with trail cams.
Like Killbilly mentioned- WDFW is broke and short staffed. All of this work is necessary, but they don't have adequate funding to perform the tasks. Hopefully they will start some serious partnerships and find help to do field work.
Post by: wraithen on December 07, 2011, 07:48:21 AM
All neigh sayers that don't have anything constructive, go to the hunter backlash post instead please.
Post by: Woodchuck on December 07, 2011, 07:54:04 AM
Post by: wraithen on December 07, 2011, 08:00:12 AM
License plates! Sell wolf license plates to all the wolf lovers! They pay to track and monitor their wolves! Sell them access to see the tracking of the wolves online.
Post by: KillBilly on December 07, 2011, 08:01:57 AM
How does that get funded? Do we create another division to do this? Do we hire more people for that specific purpose? What is that payroll?
WDFW talked about grants and other possible funding & License Plate Sales were mentioned but no concrete dollar amounts were ever mentioned. I'll guarantee they don't have an inkling of an idea what it will cost per manhour to accomplish this task. I am sure they will eventually have to enlist reputable and reliable outside help. so get practiced up... :chuckle:
Post by: CedarPants on December 07, 2011, 08:04:40 AM
We are already paying the bios. Make them work. Every yeah if they miss a breeding they are lifetime banned from grants in the future. Track them with civil air patrol. The cops will have to troll the highways to actually write the tickets. The materials are the only cost left. Might get meat donations and drug donations from some people in the state. Gonna have to buy the chip system somehow. I don't yet have the extra revenue idea for that. It SHOULD NOT come out of wdfw though. Maybe publicly tell the gov to put her own money where her mouth is???
License plates! Sell wolf license plates to all the wolf lovers! They pay to track and monitor their wolves! Sell them access to see the tracking of the wolves online.
The catch 22 is that most pro-wolf groups pretend like they are promoting a "science based plan", yet they absolutely decry the fact that mankind has the ability to electronically track wolves. They are against it. From one of the many pro-wolf sights I troll around in: "Radio collars and any type of tracking device are nothing more than a state imposed death sentence for our wolves"
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 07, 2011, 08:20:48 AM
Lotek collars are the ones that send a GPS point and telemetry reading and they cost ~5k. They have a pretty good lifespan and give the best data, but they're costly. Telemetry equipment is less expensive but requires more tracking time. I think if we're only interested in minimally surveying (for breeding sites, and survival) a telemetry collar would be fine. If you want to understand home range, check kill sites...ect... a GPS collar is necessary.
Find some groups to help purchase collars to place in packs- Conservation NW is providing funding for a collar for a pack up in NE wa to determine kill rates and species. It will be helpful to know what the wolves are eating and it may protect some cattle from wolf predation.
Post by: wraithen on December 07, 2011, 09:21:24 AM
WAcoyote, Kill billy said that we could read the chips by flying over them from what I understood from his earlier post. The issue with collars is it involves way more interaction with the wolves for recollaring and replacing batteries. Plus they would be far cheaper than the collars. A quick search from me produced some that can be read from a mile away. Some go much farther as long as there is line of sight. They don't have batteries to die as they are powered by the "query" signal from the reader. The issue is if one runs off before it can be followed and is lost. The other thing is the anti's won't have a collar to point at.
Post by: Special T on December 07, 2011, 09:39:26 AM
http://www.atstrack.com/index.asp?pageID=64
Here are just a couple of examples of stuff available...
I think the key however is what CP asked earlier..
"What is the definition of proof of a breeding pair"
Without that definition there can be NO documented BP's Clarification on this issue is necessary for 2 reasons. 1 it holds the WDFW accountable 2 it provides a way forward. I wouldn't be surprised if they agreed to the BP numbers but have no definition to what constituded proof.
Post by: wraithen on December 07, 2011, 09:41:22 AM
Post by: CedarPants on December 07, 2011, 09:44:21 AM
Cedar, I bet we could catch enough of the blind followers to fund what we need before they catch on. I don't think that the majority actually research what they're told.
Very valid point.
I make every effort to engage these people in discussions. A lot of times I'm just wasting my breath with certain "groups within their group" (I've lost track of how many times I've been told the best solution would be for a season to be open on hunters and that I am killed, leaving my family to fend for themselves without me) - but there are "groups within their group" that fall into the category you've described (not actually researching what they are told). These are the ones we would need to convince that the monitoring is a good thing
Post by: wraithen on December 07, 2011, 09:50:00 AM
Post by: KillBilly on December 07, 2011, 10:00:57 AM
http://www.environmental-studies.de/products/07/accessories.html
http://www.atstrack.com/index.asp?pageID=64
Here are just a couple of examples of stuff available...
I think the key however is what CP asked earlier..
"What is the definition of proof of a breeding pair"
Without that definition there can be NO documented BP's Clarification on this issue is necessary for 2 reasons. 1 it holds the WDFW accountable 2 it provides a way forward. I wouldn't be surprised if they agreed to the BP numbers but have no definition to what constituded proof.
The only definition is: Wolf Plan & WDFW definition of a successful breeding pair:
(a male and female with 2 or more pups that survive to Dec. 31) I have not found any mention of the type of proof required.
Post by: wraithen on December 07, 2011, 10:14:04 AM
Post by: woodswalker on December 07, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
So far the only way I can see it happening is if they can successfully trap and collar both parents and pups. Of course the pups collars would have to be changed as they grow. If not collared then they would be very hard to tell which set of parents they belong to. 3 years is a long time even to track one breeding pair let alone locate and track multiple BPs.
That is the whole point...set the bar WAY high...then its never met...so they dont get managed...just let to run and eat all the game that we as hunters have paid for over and over again.
Post by: Woodchuck on December 07, 2011, 10:19:56 AM
Post by: wraithen on December 07, 2011, 10:28:34 AM
Post by: Special T on December 08, 2011, 04:23:49 PM