Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: top pin1 on December 06, 2011, 10:54:24 PM

Title: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: top pin1 on December 06, 2011, 10:54:24 PM: Okay I've shot quite a few animals in my career. Most at close range.

I hope this thread brings up a good discussion from the replies. I learned something from this one.

Here is a cow I got yesterday with my muzzle loader at 26 yards. In the pic you can see I drew a red circle around the entrance wound. She was uphill about a 20 to 25 degree angle and only 26 yards perfectly broadside. The bullet recovered just under the skin on the opposite side was maybe 2" or 3" higher then the entrance.

What organ/s? did I hit and how far do you think she went?

I'll post up the answer in a couple days so lets see some opinions. :IBCOOL:

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Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: sakoshooter on December 06, 2011, 11:28:51 PM: Both lungs and maybe the top of the heart. Looks like a darn good shot. Congrats.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: Atroxus on December 06, 2011, 11:35:52 PM: I not managed to get an elk...or deer yet for that matter so my knowledge of elk anatomy is based on pictures only...but I'll give it a shot anyways. I was thinking both lungs, but that it seemed low to hit the heart. I am guessing it didn't make it very far after being shot though, like less than 50 yards?
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: jager on December 07, 2011, 12:08:40 AM: Quote from: sakoshooter on December 06, 2011, 11:28:51 PM
Both lungs and maybe the top of the heart. Looks like a darn good shot. Congrats.
:yeah:

She took five steps... :dunno: :chuckle:
Nice job :tup:
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: Todd_ID on December 07, 2011, 01:10:37 AM: The bottom of the heart is around an inch below the knuckle of the leg, so I'd say you center punched the heart, and she went 140 yards on a dead run and tipped over. Or she just stood there wondering what happened and tipped over.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: NWBREW on December 07, 2011, 01:23:15 AM: 2011 manastash :chuckle: works every time. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: PA BEN on December 07, 2011, 05:44:52 AM: Heart shot, went about 75yds :tup:
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: Willis McGee on December 07, 2011, 06:09:39 AM: Both lungs :hello:
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: coachcw on December 07, 2011, 06:40:42 AM: both lungs thirty yards
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: jackmaster on December 07, 2011, 06:59:56 AM: a lung shot it appears do to the pink frothy blood, i would say she went between 20 to 50 yds and piled it up, thats a good shot with minimal meat waistage i like that shot if i aint comfortable with a high shoulder shot, which is the shot i prefer because they hit the deck on the spot, congrats to you, need someone to take that meat off your hands for ya, :chuckle:
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: luv2hunt on December 07, 2011, 08:07:48 AM: Heart center punch. She fell over dead in her tracks and then went 120 miles in the back of your truck to the meat locker :dunno:.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: PlateauNDN on December 07, 2011, 08:46:11 AM: Quote from: coachcw on December 07, 2011, 06:40:42 AM
both lungs thirty yards

:yeah: I shot my bull at about 20 yards same location as your shot except straight broadside and punctured both lungs, didn't hit the heart and he went about 60 yards down hill before sliding another 40 yards or so and piling up.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: igotbigbulls on December 07, 2011, 09:03:50 AM: neck all the way.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: quadrafire on December 07, 2011, 09:07:57 AM: Top of the heart/both lungs.

What is the dark mass on her belly?
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: sirmissalot on December 07, 2011, 09:34:11 AM: Looks like a great heart shot. Hard to say how far she went, every animal is different some can run a good distance with a hole in the heart, but some just stand there and wobble until they bleed out.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: MtnMuley on December 07, 2011, 01:29:21 PM: Through the heart and she went 200 yds.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: Elknut1 on December 07, 2011, 01:42:27 PM: Possible extreme top of heart but definitely both lungs, less than 50yds.

ElkNut1
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: Bob33 on December 07, 2011, 02:19:25 PM: Double-lung, 250 yards. If it were a short run, he wouldn't have posted... :dunno:
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: Atroxus on December 07, 2011, 02:26:04 PM: Quote from: Bob33 on December 07, 2011, 02:19:25 PM
Double-lung, 250 yards. If it were a short run, he wouldn't have posted... :dunno:

I guessed short run cause there is no blood on the hide that I can see...I would think if it ran a ways it would have bled more.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 07, 2011, 02:37:46 PM: I'm thinking heart and dead within a few steps. Most animals I've seen that were hit in lungs and ran had pink blood about the nose/mouth. Animals that ran and were hit in the heart had blood running out of the wounds. I just don't see enough blood....maybe if she ran through a lot of wet brush or something.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: Broken Arrow on December 07, 2011, 02:41:25 PM: I think its a little far back. I think he just missed the heart and shooting up hill at that angle caused to bullet to hit the bottom of the far side lung. I think he thought it was a good hit but pushed her and realized it was going to take some time so he let off and waited 2 hours for it to expire.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: big wood on December 07, 2011, 03:42:31 PM: looks like the top of the heart to me. I think the lungs are a couple inches farther back. regardless, a good clean ethical kill. You owed it to her.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: spikehunter on December 07, 2011, 04:57:39 PM: no heart. obviously clipped the front of a (the) lungs! excellent shot. and oh ya what is that dark patch on her belly ? (nice big by the way) :)
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on December 07, 2011, 05:07:03 PM: Quote from: NWBREW on December 07, 2011, 01:23:15 AM
2011 manastash :chuckle: works every time. :chuckle:
thats as good as it gets if you ask me man..... :tup: :tup:
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on December 07, 2011, 05:07:49 PM: Nice elk TOP PIN !!! :tup:
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: steen on December 07, 2011, 05:18:34 PM: Heart and lungs.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 07, 2011, 05:27:20 PM: Both lungs, dropped in her shadow.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: 1buckdown on December 07, 2011, 08:31:02 PM: Lungs and dropped
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: wraithen on December 07, 2011, 08:34:13 PM: Hit no organs and dropped.
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: the1rod on December 07, 2011, 09:03:16 PM: Quote from: Broken Arrow on December 07, 2011, 02:41:25 PM
I think its a little far back. I think he just missed the heart and shooting up hill at that angle caused to bullet to hit the bottom of the far side lung. I think he thought it was a good hit but pushed her and realized it was going to take some time so he let off and waited 2 hours for it to expire.

:yeah:
Title: Re: Shot Placement
Post by: ridgefire on December 08, 2011, 08:11:43 PM: :yeah: aim for the v
Title: Re: Shot Placement **UPDATED**
Post by: top pin1 on December 08, 2011, 08:25:47 PM: Quote from: wraithen on December 07, 2011, 08:34:13 PM
Hit no organs and dropped.

Wraithen about has the closest call but others saying it was a little too far back are correct.

This blew me away when I walked up to her. I hit exactly where I was aiming. The brown spot you see of my shot was stomach internals. No blood.

I shot her at 26 yards. Slightly uphill. She jumped when I shot and went 20 feet and stood there. After about 15 seconds she got wobbly legs and fell over falling down hill to about 20 feet from me. There she couldn't get up and over a couple minutes expired from suffocation.

I'm no coroner so I'm no expert but here is my evaluation. Upon gutting the chest cavity was filled with a ton of dark red blood and mixed with stomach ingredients. My shot actually hit dead center the lower part of the diaphragm and cut in two, also ripped the front of the stomach open allowing that to enter the chest cavity. I dont know about shrapnel hitting organs as I did lose 90 grains of lead and broke a rib going in but upon checking the heart, liver and lungs I saw no damage to them at all. They all looked perfectly undamaged. I don't know about kidneys or any organ that I don't know of.

I'm assuming I took out the diaphragm and a several arteries behind the heart. Loss of massive blood made her drop so quick but the diaphragm torn is what kept her from being able to breathe and ultimately suffocating.

Pretty amazing discovery as you see that bullet entry is only four fingers behind the elbow. 4" inches back. Had she been turned to me in any way or had that been a arrow shot I don't believe the recovery would have been good. No blood and no major organs.

I was lucky and learned that even if you think you made a perfect shot (I still believe I did LOL) the outcome may be not what you saw.

I'm now aiming much closer to the leg and up about 6" more mid line on the body. After looking over this elk its pretty amazing how far forward the diaphram angles forward on the bottom part of the chest cavity..

Overall success though I believe I got a little lucky on this one.

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Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: ridgefire on December 08, 2011, 09:11:21 PM: knew you were to far back.. follow the front leg staight up and aim for the > and you will have the perfect shot. my buddy hit a bull in the exact same spot this year in idaho and had to put an arrow in it 16 hrs later to finally kill it, bull was to weak to run at that point but still alive. people are taught to aim behind the shoulder but they are aiming to far back imo.
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: quadrafire on December 08, 2011, 09:21:37 PM: Top pin
That is a cool post-----thanks for the education.
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: Colville on December 08, 2011, 09:26:53 PM: I guessed before reading. From the underneath uphill angle and the little bit back I was going to guess liver and maybe off side lung. Was the liver intact?
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: LincolnTWilliams on December 09, 2011, 10:07:19 AM: I did the same thing with my bull last year. I hit a little far back demolished the liver and cut the diaphram. Is the dark read blood from the liver you think? Great Post!
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: wraithen on December 09, 2011, 02:28:53 PM: What do I win?!
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: top pin1 on December 09, 2011, 04:14:16 PM: Quote from: LincolnTWilliams on December 09, 2011, 10:07:19 AM
I did the same thing with my bull last year. I hit a little far back demolished the liver and cut the diaphram. Is the dark read blood from the liver you think? Great Post!

The liver was completely intact. No major organs that I know of showed any damage.. Heart, lungs, and liver. I as best I could looked over all three of those organs for damage and cysts, flukes etc. None showed anything. ( I dont know what others look like)
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: Encore 280 on December 09, 2011, 04:36:50 PM: Hmmmm. :dunno: Maybe I missed something here but what caused the inerds to pop out? Inquiring minds want to know.
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: plugger on December 09, 2011, 04:54:08 PM: It sounds like it was dead in a couple minutes. I dont see how you could think it was a bad shot. I have had them live longer than that center punched through the heart, shot with my rifle.
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: top pin1 on December 09, 2011, 06:06:36 PM: Quote from: Encore 280 on December 09, 2011, 04:36:50 PM
Hmmmm. :dunno: Maybe I missed something here but what caused the inerds to pop out? Inquiring minds want to know.

The diaphragm is the large thin muscle that seperates the vital organs from the guts or innards. It also the muscle that contracts the chest cavity to draw air into the lungs. My shot cut hit that dead center and also cut the front of the stomach opening that up allowing those contents to enter the chest cavity.

Yes it killed this elk but though the shot looks like what they preach to shoot right behind the should this one did not hit any major organs. Had this been slightly quartering to me in any way or been a bow shot I don't believe the results would have been the same.

I was just trying to show that how a great looking shot may not quite be what we think it is. Plus to aim a little higher and more on the leg muscle then where I did.

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Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: Rainier10 on December 09, 2011, 06:33:00 PM: I think we are still wondering about the bown bulge in front of the utters on the underbelly.
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: Encore 280 on December 09, 2011, 06:43:54 PM: That's what I was asking about!! :yeah: I know what the diaphragm and all that stuff in there does. You mentioned that the brown bulge was the internals. What made them bulge out or what caused the rupture down in that part of the animal?
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: wraithen on December 09, 2011, 07:55:35 PM: The severed diaphragm and the severed stomach. Instead of drawing air into the lung the diaphragm still tried to contract and expand, thus moving stuff around. Stomach contents settled in that area. No?
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: npaull on December 09, 2011, 08:18:18 PM: I agree the ripped diaphragm is what killed her. As a surgeon, I can say just an fyi that the stomach is INCREDIBLY vascular, and if you indeed ripped it for any great length then it would bleed like hell. The reason a stomach shot is usually not very good is just because we punch in and out of it without damaging a lot of the wall. Same goes for the intestines. It is definitely possible for a "gut shot" to drop very fast and bleed a lot, you just have to get lucky and hit major vessels. Or, in the case of the stomach, rip along it for a considerable distance. Either way, if the diaphragm's gone it's game over.

Any shot behind the "elbow" is starting to get a bit far back - usually no problem, but in-line with the elbow, just above it, is the prime spot.
Title: Re: Shot Placement ***UPDATED***
Post by: D-Rock425 on December 11, 2011, 05:40:33 AM: I shot a bull in the same spot back in 04 missed eveything. I found him the next morning dead he made it about a half mile be for he died but bedded several times in-between.