Post by: Ridge Roamer on December 14, 2011, 01:47:30 PM
Saw this the other day & thought to put it on here - nice looking critters, any one found any signs of? Hope this link works, if not maybe type it in?
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/nov/29/feds-propose-critical-caribou-habitat-idaho-washin/
Post by: Helix on December 14, 2011, 01:50:48 PM
Post by: spookgus on December 14, 2011, 02:05:38 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on December 14, 2011, 02:10:10 PM
Do NOT be fooled. This is more BS being crammed down our throats and removal of freedom in the name of regulation.
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The action could lead to rule changes for logging, fire control and human activity in some areas.
more
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One group of caribou was located in the U.S. during this survey. All other caribou tracks were located in B.C. The final fixed-wing flight was followed immediately by a helicopter survey to count and classify caribou. The South Selkirks contain a minimum of 46 caribou in 2009 – 43 in B.C. and 3 in the U.S
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The proposed critical habitat is located in Boundary and Bonner counties in Idaho, and Pend Oreille County in Washington. These lands are currently considered to be occupied by the species.
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We do encourage our federal, state and Tribal partners, and others, to provide comments specific to this proposal,” said Brian Kelly, Idaho State Supervisor for the Service.sound familiar?
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The primary threat to the species’ survival is the loss of contiguous old growth forest habitats due to timber harvest and wildfires. Human activities such as road-building and recreational trails can also fragment caribou habitat and facilitate the movement of predators into the caribou’s range
You see? The problem is us humans and if wolves are eating them it's only because of the ROADS AND TRAILS that WE built making it easy for the wolves to access this remote area.
Please look at page 4 here and tell me this makes sense.
https://research.idfg.idaho.gov/wildlife/Wildlife%20Technical%20Reports/2009%20Caribou%20Census%20South%20Selkirks.pdf
Who might be behind this???
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Defenders of Wildlife, The Lands Council, Selkirk Conservation Alliance, and Center for Biological Diversity petitioned the Service to designate critical habitat for the species in 2002. A 2009 Settlement Agreement stipulated that the Service would submit a proposed critical habitat rule to the Federal Register on or before November 20, 2011, with a final rule by November 20, 2012.
Wake up people.....
Post by: MtnMuley on December 14, 2011, 02:16:53 PM
Post by: mulehunter on December 14, 2011, 02:19:35 PM
Post by: Helix on December 14, 2011, 02:56:25 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 14, 2011, 02:59:40 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 14, 2011, 03:09:20 PM
The area in WA that they're "protecting" is already protected....IT'S THE SALMO PRIEST WILDERNESS AREA. Before you go blowing off about anyone taking your freedoms you should take a look at the map.
I've known about this area for years, so it's not new if you keep up on things. Plus, that's grizzly country big time.
Plus, it's roadless. Correct me if I'm wrong Bart.
Post by: MtnMuley on December 14, 2011, 03:14:47 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on December 14, 2011, 03:38:01 PM
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The area in WA that they're "protecting" is already protected.
Please try and explain this to me then.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 14, 2011, 03:45:36 PM
QuoteThe area in WA that they're "protecting" is already protected.
Please try and explain this to me then.
I think because it's a big grizzly area. Plus, the Woodland Caribou go back and forth between BC and the USA. This is just a guess.
Post by: high country on December 14, 2011, 04:06:35 PM
The area in WA that they're "protecting" is already protected....IT'S THE SALMO PRIEST WILDERNESS AREA. Before you go blowing off about anyone taking your freedoms you should take a look at the map.
Don't leave out trapper burn, Roman nose and everything between.
First degree horsechit.
Post by: GoldTip on December 14, 2011, 04:21:04 PM
Post by: daydreamn on December 14, 2011, 08:38:46 PM
Post by: jess on December 14, 2011, 08:49:21 PM
Post by: daydreamn on December 14, 2011, 08:58:37 PM
Post by: high country on December 14, 2011, 09:07:26 PM
Post by: jess on December 14, 2011, 09:08:49 PM
Post by: NWBREW on December 14, 2011, 09:58:11 PM
there is no history of caribou in stevens county ever.... Maybe its from the ice age... Lol
I beleive the county they are talking about in Wa. is the P.O......not Stevens.
Post by: jess on December 14, 2011, 10:03:11 PM
Post by: NWBREW on December 14, 2011, 10:06:34 PM
Post by: huntnnw on December 14, 2011, 10:09:39 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 15, 2011, 06:47:26 AM
Post by: benhuntin on December 15, 2011, 06:51:57 AM
Post by: buglebuster on December 15, 2011, 07:44:19 AM
Post by: high country on December 15, 2011, 07:50:07 AM
Post by: daydreamn on December 15, 2011, 07:14:57 PM
If i had $1,000 for every shed caribou antler found in wa, I still could not make 2 months mortgage payments.Get a shovel and start digging! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: muzbuster on December 20, 2011, 01:34:53 PM
Post by: bucklucky on December 20, 2011, 01:46:59 PM
If i had $1,000 for every shed caribou antler found in wa, I still could not make 2 months mortgage payments.Get a shovel and start digging! :chuckle: :chuckle:
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Its going to end up like the pocket gophers here on the west side where it basically makes your property useless.
Post by: dibbs on December 23, 2011, 07:42:22 PM
Post by: TeacherMan on December 23, 2011, 08:04:13 PM
Post by: boneaddict on December 27, 2011, 07:21:59 AM
Post by: bearpaw on December 27, 2011, 08:40:49 AM
Where has the Grizzly Bear made the biggest comeback in the United States?
Answer:
I think the answer to this would be Glacier and Yellowstone National Parks, and the mountain ranges surrounding those parks, please correct me if I am wrong.
So, my point is that these two parks have heavy human visitation, hiking trails, and snowmobiling, and the mountain ranges surrounding the parks have human inhabitants and are heavily hunted and snomobiled amoung other uses. The area in Washington where the caribou roam is already wilderness "Salmo Wilderness". So snowmobile use and logging is not an issue in the Washington area that these caribou occupy.
While they seem to be blaming human trails, snowmobile use and logging, the snowmobiling seems to be occuring in B.C. Why is snowmobiling even an issue in Washington? When I read parts of the report, all the known fatalities were caused by hunting activity and auto collisions in BC. If I remember correctly, (I may be wrong) but it seems to me that a tribe in BC still hunts these caribou occasionally. It also seems that as someone else mentioned, it is known that cougars are causing mortality. If I am correct, then to help these caribou Canada needs to negotiate with that particular tribe and they need to find ways to limit highway fatalities. Washington needs to allow cougar hunting and actually target cougar in northeastern PO County. Access will be needed for that to happen... :chuckle:
It appears that none of the known fatalities have anything to do with snowmobiles, hiking or horseback trails, or logging, why on earth do they want to further limit access or those activities. :bash:
To solve a problem you must identify and limit the actual cause of the problem. :twocents:
Post by: frostman on December 27, 2011, 03:36:02 PM
I had never heard of woodland caribou until a couple years ago. I would have thought that woodland caribou would benefit from logging / clearcutting creating feeding areas.
The decline in numbers is almost assuredly from predators, but that doesn't fit the liberal agenda.
Post by: shanevg on December 28, 2011, 08:24:26 AM
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 08:35:30 AM
I know that predators are a major issue for woodland caribou but so is logging. Woodland caribou rely almost entirely on lichen that grows on trees in a forested area in the winter. They tend to stick to large tracts of land with old growth forest since that is prime habitat for lichen growth. Research has shown that fragmentation due to logging is one of the biggest issues when it comes to survivability of woodland caribou herds.
I'm not disagreeing that predators are a major issue, and their report supports what the caribou are eating. What I am saying is that the portion of Washington where the caribou live is already designated wilderness (Salmo Wilderness), so there is no logging or snowmobiling at all in that area. Why are they even bringing up logging and snowmiling in the US?
Is it because they want to extend the wilderness in Idaho closer to Sandpointe? I must comment again that it appears mortality is due to conditions in Canada and to predation. :twocents:
Post by: shanevg on December 28, 2011, 10:13:42 AM
I know that predators are a major issue for woodland caribou but so is logging. Woodland caribou rely almost entirely on lichen that grows on trees in a forested area in the winter. They tend to stick to large tracts of land with old growth forest since that is prime habitat for lichen growth. Research has shown that fragmentation due to logging is one of the biggest issues when it comes to survivability of woodland caribou herds.
I'm not disagreeing that predators are a major issue, and their report supports what the caribou are eating. What I am saying is that the portion of Washington where the caribou live is already designated wilderness (Salmo Wilderness), so there is no logging or snowmobiling at all in that area. Why are they even bringing up logging and snowmiling in the US?
Is it because they want to extend the wilderness in Idaho closer to Sandpointe? I must comment again that it appears mortality is due to conditions in Canada and to predation. :twocents:
Not disagreeing with you at all- I was responding to the post saying that logging would create more feed for them. That may be true for elk and deer but not woodlan caribou.
The truth with the Selkirk caribou is that the BC problems are really the biggest problems. Extending the wilderness area in Idaho would probably be good but in reality those caribou are hardly ever in the states anyways. Unfortunately in both the North Cascades grizz issue and the Selkirk caribou issue, one of the biggest struggles is just getting cooperation between Canada and the US.
On a different note I would love to see wilderness areas be a more common solution to these "environmental issues" than expanding National Parks and closing down areas except to special user groups. At least with wilderness areas we can still hunt areas. Seriously, the North Cascades Park shouldn't even exist. It should just be a wilderness area!
Post by: shanevg on December 28, 2011, 10:17:42 AM
By the way if you look at the map most of the proposed areas are in Idaho. I believe all of the Washington areas are already wilderness and therefore no changes should need to be made.
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2011, 10:25:03 AM
http://m.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2011/nov/30/feds-propose-habitat-protections-selkirk-caribou/
By the way if you look at the map most of the proposed areas are in Idaho. I believe all of the Washington areas are already wilderness and therefore no changes should need to be made.
Agreed about Washington, but makes no sense to me to make more wilderness in Idaho for a specie not being affected by conditions in Idaho.
I would also agree that wilderness is better than national park. They already want to expand the North Cascades Park. More land of no use. :bash:
Post by: shanevg on December 30, 2011, 09:12:58 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on December 30, 2011, 10:35:04 AM
maybe we should just keep everyone out eh?
Below is a portion of my comment letter I submitted for the Yellowstone National Park - 2008 Winter Use Plans Environmental Assessment Comment
Snowmobiles do not put unreasonable stress on wildlife. Numerous studies have shown that wildlife are more stressed and “fear flight” far more often by the sudden unannounced presence of approaching humans on foot (cross-country ski/snow-shoe recreationists) than they do by the well observed appearance of snowmobilers. Snowmobilers can be heard by ungulates at a greater distance than non-motorized users can be heard, which in turn gives wildlife ample opportunities to calmly move off trails into nearby denser vegetation, thus avoiding last minute “fear flight” as when startled by the sudden unannounced presence of non-motorized users which are perceived by ungulates as predators.
One such recent study found that “ski trails seem to displace mule deer to greater distances than occurs along snowmobile routes” (Recreation Effects on Wildlife [2002] - Bill Gaines, Forest Service Wildlife Biologist, Wenatchee National Forest). Another study states “snowmobiles appear less distressing than cross-country skiers, and for several ungulate species, the greatest negative responses were measured for unpredictable or erratic occurrences”. This study also states “Greater flight distances occur in response to skiers or individuals on foot than to snowmobiles, suggesting that the most detrimental disturbances to the wintering animal is that which is unanticipated.” (Effects of recreation on Rocky Mountain Wildlife [1999] – Ungulates). “Harassment and displacement of wildlife, even if inadvertent, probably occurs more often than we know. Boating, camping, hiking, fishing, and other popular activities, including simply driving along the park’s roads, cause wildlife to modify their behavior and use of habitats. Only by careful monitoring of animal populations can we infer when human activities are causing too much stress to individual animals or to the health of their local populations. Outside the park, continued population growth and land development cause competition between humans and animals for living space.” (NPS http://www.nps.gov/yell/parkmgmt/upload/preserving.pdf)
http://www.snowmobilers.org/facts_sound.html
Addressing the subject of snowmobile operations in Yellowstone National Park, Jack Anderson, a former Superintendent of Yellowstone commented: "We found that elk, bison, moose, even the fawns, wouldn't move away unless a machine was stopped and a person started walking. As long as you stayed on the machine and the machine was running, they never paid any attention. If you stopped the machine, got off and started moving, that was a different story. The thing that seemed to be disturbing to them was a man walking on foot".
And:
A three-year study, Response of white-tailed Deer to Snowmobiles and Snowmobile Trails in Maine, conducted by wildlife scientists for the Maine Cooperative Wildlife Research Unit and the Maine Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife, revealed that: "Deer consistently bedded near snowmobile trails and fed along them even when those trails were used for snowmobiling several times daily. In addition, fresh deer tracks were repeatedly observed on snowmobile trails shortly after machines had passed by, indicating that deer were not driven from the vicinity of these trails? The reaction of deer to a man walking differed markedly from their reaction to a man on a snowmobile? This decided tendency of deer to run with the approach of a human on foot, in contrast to their tendency to stay in sight when approached by a snowmobiler, suggests that the deer responded to the machine and not to the person riding it".
And my favorite:
The Wisconsin study also compared the reaction of deer to the presence of cross-country skiers. When cross-country skiers replaced snowmobiles on the test trail systems, the deer moved away from the trail more frequently.
Post by: high country on December 30, 2011, 04:06:01 PM
Except that the biggest issue with these caribou is habitat and logging (and snowmobiles in the clearcuts created by logging) is the biggest threat to their habitat. Part of the reason more incidents occur in BC is because the caribou spend more time in BC. It can definitely be argued that wilderness protection in ID could dramatically help expand their viable habitat.
Ever been there? It does not need to be wilderness protected, god made it damn near impassible to anything shy of a helicopter.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on December 30, 2011, 05:25:40 PM
Post by: high country on December 30, 2011, 06:10:58 PM
One other thing. Anywhere in this area that is in Idaho that you want to keep the snowmobiles out of that some of the sledders just might be Wolf hunters.
I resemble that.
Post by: rebal69972 on December 30, 2011, 07:01:49 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on December 31, 2011, 07:54:46 PM
One other thing. Anywhere in this area that is in Idaho that you want to keep the snowmobiles out of that some of the sledders just might be Wolf hunters.
I resemble that.
As would I if I lived closer!
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 31, 2011, 08:29:47 PM
Post by: huntnnw on January 01, 2012, 10:46:13 PM
i dont know a lot about woodland caribou, but i do know that winter is hard on all animals, but logging never takes everything but if you want to see elk and deer in the spring you look at last years clearcuts. also 10 or 15 years ago the biggest preditor for all big game in the NW was mountain lions but there where very few wolves here but now theres many wolves, has this generagion of caribou ever seen a wolf? if these areas are already closed why is there a problem unless the govenment wants more then i would have to think consperacy but thats just me :twocents: like i said i dont know much about caribou and i want to learn
Theres been wolves up near canada/washington line for a long time...we've heard wolves up there as long ago as 25 years aga..saw my first ever wolf up there 20 years ago
Post by: bearpaw on January 02, 2012, 06:55:24 AM
i dont know a lot about woodland caribou, but i do know that winter is hard on all animals, but logging never takes everything but if you want to see elk and deer in the spring you look at last years clearcuts. also 10 or 15 years ago the biggest preditor for all big game in the NW was mountain lions but there where very few wolves here but now theres many wolves, has this generagion of caribou ever seen a wolf? if these areas are already closed why is there a problem unless the govenment wants more then i would have to think consperacy but thats just me :twocents: like i said i dont know much about caribou and i want to learn
Theres been wolves up near canada/washington line for a long time...we've heard wolves up there as long ago as 25 years aga..saw my first ever wolf up there 20 years ago
I've seen their tracks occasionally since the 80's and 90's during the winter when we were lion hunting. Not many, but there were a few.
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2012, 07:17:59 AM