Post by: duckmen1 on December 25, 2011, 07:39:56 PM
thanks for any info
Post by: Wazukie on December 25, 2011, 08:17:14 PM
Post by: norsepeak on December 25, 2011, 08:54:40 PM
Post by: high country on December 25, 2011, 10:06:24 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 25, 2011, 10:17:07 PM
They appear to have a love/hate relationship with those who have used them on game. Those that love them say they enter a couple inches, expand violently, expend all their energy inside the animal, and leave them "Dead Right There". Those that hate them say they cannot be relied on to penetrate sufficiently with marginal shots. They rarely leave an exit hole to aid in tracking.
Unless you are planning to shoot game at very long distances in excess of 600 yards, the high ballistic coefficients are of little advantage over other bullets.
I have not used them on game. Personally, I prefer to use penetrating bullets that create two holes, and aren't prone to possible failure when hitting something.
Post by: high country on December 25, 2011, 10:46:17 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi193.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz16%2Fgyonemura%2FIMAG0004.jpg&hash=2a629d911c0441339baa1ba0dc28e714ac4f74bd)
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 26, 2011, 12:12:02 PM
Post by: Eli346 on December 26, 2011, 02:46:02 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on December 26, 2011, 05:07:57 PM
Post by: longrange7mm on December 26, 2011, 05:51:06 PM
Post by: Fowlweather25 on December 26, 2011, 06:39:45 PM
Post by: rbros on December 27, 2011, 10:00:22 AM
Post by: sirmissalot on December 28, 2011, 01:14:07 PM
They are a typical cup and core bullet with killer bc. If you hit big bones early in the impact, you might be disapointed. If you make a clean pass through the vitals, there is nothing more devastating. Don't expect to make ass to tea kettle shots on elk like you could a Barnes, but do expect great accuracy and downrange ballistics with pretty devastating wound channels.
Pretty much exactly what I was going to say. I saw an elk shot right in the neck just below the head with a 30-378 shooting a 190 grain berger VLD, it was about a 100 yard shot. That gun, that big of a bullet at that range you would think it would have easily passed through but it didn't. There was of course not much left connecting the head to the carcass besides the hide. Seeing that makes me a little iffy about this bullet, I think just like highcountry said a behind the shoulder shot this bullet is just amazing, but I usually shoot for the shoulder(s) and unlike on TV you just can't always wait for that perfect broadside shot. In my opinion if you shoot a bull with this bullet at a quartering toward shot right in the shoulder, I don't think the bullet will make it to the vitals, even with a big magnum round shooting a heavy bullet. Just my :twocents:
Post by: duckmen1 on December 28, 2011, 01:33:47 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 28, 2011, 02:08:11 PM
They are a typical cup and core bullet with killer bc. If you hit big bones early in the impact, you might be disapointed. If you make a clean pass through the vitals, there is nothing more devastating. Don't expect to make ass to tea kettle shots on elk like you could a Barnes, but do expect great accuracy and downrange ballistics with pretty devastating wound channels.
This means that all the energy that.that bullet had (2600+lb guessed by 2500 fps impact velocity) was directed right at the spine of the elk... there is no animal whose spine can absorb 2600+ lbs of energy and be fine. You don't need a pass through to kill.
Pretty much exactly what I was going to say. I saw an elk shot right in the neck just below the head with a 30-378 shooting a 190 grain berger VLD, it was about a 100 yard shot. That gun, that big of a bullet at that range you would think it would have easily passed through but it didn't. There was of course not much left connecting the head to the carcass besides the hide. Seeing that makes me a little iffy about this bullet, I think just like highcountry said a behind the shoulder shot this bullet is just amazing, but I usually shoot for the shoulder(s) and unlike on TV you just can't always wait for that perfect broadside shot. In my opinion if you shoot a bull with this bullet at a quartering toward shot right in the shoulder, I don't think the bullet will make it to the vitals, even with a big magnum round shooting a heavy bullet. Just my :twocents:
Post by: sirmissalot on December 28, 2011, 02:21:09 PM
I use berger bullets and love them, but I don't use them for large game. They fricken whack the hell out of coyotes, I swear by them in my 204.
Post by: high country on December 28, 2011, 02:59:21 PM
i'm just a little worried about enough penetration to cleanly bring down elk and bears if they were hit in the shoulders. that big bone and that much expansion they are suppose to have makes me a little nervous
You must have missed my pic. BTW, it had a starting velocity of 2950 and impact velocity of 1950.....you can do the math to figure how far that is. Don't over think it. Just make the bullet go where it is supposed to. You will be fine.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 28, 2011, 03:14:56 PM
Post by: Fowlweather25 on December 28, 2011, 03:20:21 PM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 28, 2011, 03:20:59 PM
The other two deer were shot by my 12 year old (who drew a second deer tag). First one was a doe at between 250 and 300 yards (I didn't range it). Shot through the ribs behind the shoulder and hit a rib on the exit side, tearing out a pretty good chunk. Third was a 150 class whitetail at 294 yards, shot straight through the center of the chest and exited behind the left shoulder without touching a bone. All three deer dead within a few feet of where they were shot.
Effective? Yes. Dead deer? Absolutely. Big hole and bullet fragments when you hit bone? Yup. Of course, as has been mentioned earlier, none of the shots were long enough to take "advantage" of the VLD's chief selling point, which is long-range accuracy. But that is what my rifle is sighted in with (I have CDS target knobs on my scope-built specifically for that round), so that is what I shoot.
Post by: sirmissalot on December 28, 2011, 03:29:57 PM
It's not always just about the bullet it's more so about the energy upon impact. :twocents:
This is exactly right, and thats where berger bullets start to really shine with their high BC values and fragmentation. A barnes bullet won't have as much energy (at least on paper, not talking by experience) as a berger, and the barnes won't fragment and won't mushroom nearly as well at the long distances ie 6-700+ yards. If I were a long ranger hunter (I am not) I would look much closer at berger bullets for big game.
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 28, 2011, 03:51:32 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on December 28, 2011, 03:51:44 PM
Post by: high country on December 28, 2011, 03:53:58 PM
Post by: Fowlweather25 on December 28, 2011, 04:07:07 PM
Post by: rbros on December 28, 2011, 04:29:32 PM
I know elk and deer are very different but the buck I shot at 653 yards this year had 2 broken shoulders and the bullet came to rest just under the hide on the off side. If you can do that on a deer at that range I'm fairly confident you can penetrate one shoulder on an elk and still get vitals. That was shootin 168 grn vlds out of a 7mm. It's not always just about the bullet it's more so about the energy upon impact. :twocents:
A bull I shot at 1103 was with a 168 Berger in a 7mm at 3340fps. Broke both shoulders and was under the hide. Dropped where he stood. About the same effect as the other ones over 1k with a 300gr SMK in my Edge. Didn't have time to test out the 300gr Bergers this year, but will will in 2012. I wouldn't hesistate on deer or elk out to 1k with the 7mm 168 or 180, beyond that, a little more horsepower would be appreciated. Not needed if shot placement is correct, but gives a little more margin if something does go wrong.
Post by: high country on December 28, 2011, 08:40:37 PM
You still have to have kinetic energy to have penetration and a wound channel. It's simple physics. The more energy the bullet has upon impact the deeper it will penetrate. Obviously when it strikes a hard surface energy is lost. That being said the higher the number upon impact the deeper it will travel, and therefore cause a more devestating wound channel and impact the vital organs and tissues a lot harder.
You may want to look at some ballistics tests....faster is not always deeper penetrating, infact bergers and smks tend to work well at slower speeds.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on December 28, 2011, 08:46:48 PM
You can kind of see the giant exit wound on the first pic. On my son's buck you can only see a tiny dime-sized hole in the center of the chest.Thats a fine whitetail little Pathfinder ...looks like he got hit hard !!! :tup: :drool:
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 29, 2011, 09:20:58 AM
THanks Bowhunter. He made a great shot. 294 yards, steep uphill shot. The buck was chasing does and stopped, facing straight towards us. The only shot he had was straight into the chest. He touched off the round, the buck tucked it's tail and ducked into the draw. "I hit him." he said "Right here, through the chest" and pointed with his finger to exactly where that little hole is in the picture. I wasn't so confident, but when we walked up the hill, there he was, only a few yards from where he was standing when he shot, dead as a wedge...You can kind of see the giant exit wound on the first pic. On my son's buck you can only see a tiny dime-sized hole in the center of the chest.Thats a fine whitetail little Pathfinder ...looks like he got hit hard !!! :tup: :drool:
Post by: Kuduman on December 30, 2011, 11:29:05 AM
A few years ago I contacted Berger while doing some bullet compairsons preparing for an African safari trip. At that point all they could comment on was their field testing results for target shooting which were excellent. I personally only use bonded bullets spicifically Hornady innerbond. The vld,s are great bullets and they may have completed more field research in the past few years. I would recommend contacting Berger directly, they were a great help to me. I just chose to stay with a more established hunting bullet manufacturer than one that at that time specialized in target bullets. But in their defence Berger bullets were probably the most accurate I tested.
good luck
Jeff
A.K.A. Kuduman