Post by: Johnb317 on March 27, 2012, 08:21:03 AM
I disagree and feel rather insulted! I shoot blazer fletching and have had no problems with them being worn out (I shoot a lot in the backyard), and shoot consistent groupings that I don't think would improve by more than an inch at 50 yards if I went to a drop-away. I like the Whisker biscuit as it's simple, full arrow capture, no moving parts to fail.
Chuck obviously has a bias...
What are your thoughts?
Post by: THunt on March 27, 2012, 08:23:46 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 27, 2012, 08:34:44 AM
Chuck is an awesome archer with a great history of big game kills. He has opinions that don't match mine, but he's by far a much more successful bowhunter than I.
Post by: Button Nubbs on March 27, 2012, 08:41:31 AM
Post by: TommyH on March 27, 2012, 08:44:37 AM
Post by: JPhelps on March 27, 2012, 08:50:47 AM
How do you know it wont increase your groups? I would want to back up my claim before I called someone out. I can't comment to the accuracy of a WB because I have always shot a trophy taker fall away.
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 27, 2012, 08:51:56 AM
Post by: TommyH on March 27, 2012, 09:02:39 AM
In my opinion you need to spin an arrow with a fixed blade broadhead. That requires helical or offset fletching. I would be concerned with sending these vanes through a WB. There is no way to guarantee that the interaction between the whiskers and vanes is identical shot to shot.
How do you know it wont increase your groups? I would want to back up my claim before I called someone out. I can't comment to the accuracy of a WB because I have always shot a trophy taker fall away.
:yeah: We practice shooting all year trying to get it all right, shot after shot after shot needs to be just the same as when you were practicing.
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 27, 2012, 09:16:52 AM
Post by: TommyH on March 27, 2012, 09:19:59 AM
If Johnb is shooting groups within 1" of bullseye at 50 yds, I'd say he should continue doing what he's doing. I don't believe this is a right or wrong, black and white issue.I dont think he said he was shooting 1 inch groups at 50 yards, if he was i wouldnt change anything!! :chuckle:
Post by: PolarBear on March 27, 2012, 09:26:13 AM
Post by: Mike450r on March 27, 2012, 09:30:55 AM
Post by: JLS on March 27, 2012, 09:51:04 AM
If it works for you use it. If you're offended by Chuck dissing on your rest, write him a letter if you feel the need.
Why in the world you feel insulted?
Post by: MIKEXRAY on March 27, 2012, 10:43:07 AM
Post by: Johnb317 on March 27, 2012, 10:57:36 AM
I've read a lot of Chuck's stuff and felt his description of Whisker Biscuits was fairly dismissive, as if he had to mention them, but would rather have not.
When I first started bowhunting the rest I used was a little plastic flipper (20 + years ago), and when starting up again the guys who got me back into bow hunting used the WB.
For myself I would be hard pressed to take a shot at an animal beyond 50 yards... (they move, and that's my personal choice).
I apreciatte all your comments, and if I do send a letter to Chuck I will temper it accordingly.
btw - my wife thinks I spend too much time reading this forum.... :chuckle:
Post by: 300rum on March 27, 2012, 11:55:56 AM
However, I use a biscuit and it is plenty accurate. The main reasons I use a biscuit are more for function rather than for ultimate accuracy. When it is snowing heavy or you are in an ice storm, I am always worried about the rest freezing up, the Biscuit has always done well in these conditions. I like to, at times, walk around with a knocked arrow and the biscuit keeps the arrow where it needs to be. It is less "mechanical" and that's a good thing when you are miles from the truck. I shoot helical fletched arrows and haven't had the problems some people say they do. I do put a dab of glue on the leading edge of the vain and use the stiffest veins I can find. These arrows will have waves in them eventually but it really hasn't affected accuracy too much, that I have noticed. I suppose if you are in a tree a mechanical is the way to go.
Post by: ouchfoss on March 27, 2012, 09:55:41 PM
Personally though, I will have to agree with Chuck and will never use one again. I had a friend show me one back in '02 or '03 and was sold on the fact that it would hold your arrows no matter what and still shoot "OK". I used it for 5 seasons and although I was still successful at filling some tags, there was still some shots that didnt hit where I was aiming and I just kinda figured it was my own fault by buck fever and whatnot. Seemed to that it was a never ending struggle of being accurate and consistent and after doing away with the WB and going to a fallway my grouping became noticably better. I should also mention that part my accuracy problem was the fact that after so many shots, the fletchings would be all wavey and screwed up which would make each shot that much less consistent and would limit the amount of pratice shots I would take for fear of getting to the point where and arrow would need refletched. I cant imagine that taking as few shots as possible througout the season would make anyone feel confident about hitting woods. Lesson learned. :twocents:
Post by: ouchfoss on March 27, 2012, 10:08:57 PM
Post by: MLBowhunting on April 07, 2012, 11:49:38 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 08, 2012, 12:57:32 AM
1: To say the whisker biscuit is not accurate is a true under statement. It is very very accurate and that myth has been put to bed a long time ago. You take 2 pro shooters there will be no given difference in groups at normal hunting ranges.
2: Does the modern fall away have some slight advantages yes. Does it mean they are better no! What is right for one might not be right for another. Is a deer or a elk going to notice those 1-4fps gained with most bows switching from a biscuit to a fall away? Hell no!
3: I have killed tons of critters with a bow using both systems. More then most might shoot in a life time. Does this make me a pro? no does it make me better then anyone? no. Does it mean I HAVE PURE INSIGHT INTO THE SUBJECT? YES!
Bottom line is this. There is a little difference between a drop away and a biscuit. Is one only good for new shooters and intermediate shooters? hell no. Does the factors play much into anything in normal hunting conditions? no!
So once again to each there own :tup:
Post by: RadSav on April 08, 2012, 02:15:06 AM
Chuck has mentioned many times over the years why he still chooses to shoot aluminum arrows. He does so because it is the one shaft material he can take beyond question in straightness, uniformity of spine and reliability. He never insults those who use all carbon shafts. And he has never stated that their use should be avoided. He has simply found that in his approach to the perfect hunting setup aluminum is a better choice. Good for Chuck! It's as simple as that.
From the times I have met Chuck and the conversations we have had over the past 25 or so years I can say one thing for certain - Damn Good is not good enough in his mind. He settles for nothing less than true perfection in his equipment. He openly explains that his mind must be at complete ease when he comes to full draw. His equipment must be beyond a point of absolute so the only worry he has is in aim, release and follow through. If the Hairy Hole would bring him to that level of comfort he would be using it!
Most of us will never see a world record animal let alone have a chance to shoot more than one. Most of us will never have that level of pressure put on our hunting success as a direct contributor to our career success and survival. And, most of us will never go into the woods with the extreme level of preparedness that is Chuck Adams way of life. Is that a bad thing? Not really. Does that insult the average bowhunter? Certainly not!
The fact is that while the Hairy Hole is extremely popular, extremely effective and extremely simple it is not a first choice of top competitive 3-D and target shooters for a reason. It is a darn fine product for the average hunter. And even a darn fine product for some of the worlds best like David Blanton & Archie Nesbit. But, if you are an anal retentive seamhead who often pushes yourself to the extreme limits of shot opportunities and success demanding everything perform at the highest level the Hairy Hole is probably not the best choice.
All that being said I am rather shocked about the way Chuck wrote this piece. I expect he was limited in word space and sacrificed a bit of clarity. He does not do that often. Of course we never know what effect editors had on the piece as well. When I used to write for Western Bowhunter Magazine the direction of some articles were a mystery to me after editing - and they were my writings!
Chuck has always been very responsive to letters written respectively. But be prepared if you try to challenge his findings. He is usually as prepared to defend himself as he is to tackle the next world record. He is a true professional and truly a fine individual. And, I am sure he never intended to make you feel insulted for using the Biscuit.
Post by: Bob33 on April 08, 2012, 06:35:21 AM
Post by: Special T on April 08, 2012, 08:09:35 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 08, 2012, 08:31:04 AM
Post by: jechicdr on April 08, 2012, 10:11:56 PM
Suspect this guy works with Trophy Ridge...but still pretty impressive shooting with whisker biscuit.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 09, 2012, 02:37:35 PM
I never used a WB bit might switch to one now so that I can say hairy hole!
Post by: Fullabull on April 10, 2012, 05:07:09 PM
Chuck has a reputation of being rood but I think he just knows his stuff and is not willing to compromise what he has learned over so many years of hunting and shooting. Some people just come across that way but are really not trying to be rood.
Post by: alwinearcher on April 10, 2012, 05:24:47 PM
I've shot whisker biscuit, drop away, and currently Quiktune Sizzor. Shot well with Whisker Biscuit and Sizzor. Dropaway, I don't think was set up properly, so I probably gave up on it too soon. The full containment of the whisker biscuit made it easy to tune. The dropaway, I think was dropping too quickly and so was not being guided enough to make an easy tune. The Sizzor gave me the best of both. Can adjust easily to hold arrow as long as I want and fall away before the fletchings arrive.
Suspect this guy works with Trophy Ridge...but still pretty impressive shooting with whisker biscuit.
Look at that!
Pigman would probably be Winning IBO worlds in the pro class if he had a Ripcord :tup:
Post by: trophyhunt on April 10, 2012, 05:33:42 PM
O.k here is a comment from a guy that has biscuits on 4 bows and drop away rests on 4 bows! That would be me if you are wondering. I have shot thousands of arrows threw both styles of rests.:tup:Very well said, I have also used both and killed animals with the bisket. I recently bought a new bow which has a drop away witch holds my arrow as well as the bisket did so I agree with all you said.
1: To say the whisker biscuit is not accurate is a true under statement. It is very very accurate and that myth has been put to bed a long time ago. You take 2 pro shooters there will be no given difference in groups at normal hunting ranges.
2: Does the modern fall away have some slight advantages yes. Does it mean they are better no! What is right for one might not be right for another. Is a deer or a elk going to notice those 1-4fps gained with most bows switching from a biscuit to a fall away? Hell no!
3: I have killed tons of critters with a bow using both systems. More then most might shoot in a life time. Does this make me a pro? no does it make me better then anyone? no. Does it mean I HAVE PURE INSIGHT INTO THE SUBJECT? YES!
Bottom line is this. There is a little difference between a drop away and a biscuit. Is one only good for new shooters and intermediate shooters? hell no. Does the factors play much into anything in normal hunting conditions? no!
So once again to each there own :tup:
Post by: bloodhound on April 10, 2012, 05:48:01 PM
pro's- ummm hmmmm they are easy to put on and toon for a back up rest. uhh thats all i got.
con's- try to lay your bow down with an arrow knocked, then spend the next five min trying to smooth all the whiskers back out when they all get mashed.
- try to walk with the arrow knocked have it hook something as your walking and spend five min fixing the whiskers.
- they are not forgiving if you twitch or torque on release.
- they ware out and you have to replace the biscuit
- your fletchings have to be aligned the same with all your arrows so they all enter the same spot through the biscuit or you loose accuracy.
- un knock your arrow once its in the rest, pain since you have to pull it out the front through the rest.
- because the biscuit wares out they have to be tuned more often, and re tuned when you replace the biscuit.
-if you like to shoot 4inch vanes be prepared to replace them a lot since the rest eats them.
i could go on for days, but the reality is that when it came out it was a great rest, but these days with full contain drop aways, unless your trying to save money or something, there is absolutely no reason to buy one. drop away rests are better in every way. and though some might say the difference isnt that much in accuracy, though i think its a lot, drops are still more accurate and forgiving so why would you settle for something less then the best.
Post by: TheHunt on April 10, 2012, 06:04:09 PM
Therefore, I do support ole Chucky as it makes sense to me.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 10, 2012, 06:16:59 PM