Post by: JPhelps on April 11, 2012, 08:53:39 PM
In Episode 2 of Primetime Outdoors Archery Roosevelt Elk hunt I took this shot at 31 yds. There was a little discussion over the shot.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=95483.0
Here is some info on elk vitals: http://www.idahostatebowhunters.org/elkshotplacement%201.pdf
They do not recommend the frontal shot.
If you will take it do you have any set distance limitations?
I personally have never taken the shot before. I have done a ton of reading on the shot and where to aim and what your confidence should be before taking the shot. You have a very small window to take out the vitals. I had been practicing every other day and knew at 31 yds I would hit within an inch of where I was aiming (I used my inch to the left).
PROS:
Extremely effective
CONS:
Small Window
Lack of blood due to thick hair
Let's hear what you think. Lets make this an educational post and avoid arguing.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 11, 2012, 08:58:57 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on April 11, 2012, 09:05:33 PM
But, then I would pass again, but that is just me, and why you harvested an animal, and the only one I shot was at a grouse.
In my defence, I use a recurve, and my group at that distance is more like 5 inches, (or 2 and 1/2 by your guide) a little off, and :bash:
Not worth the chance to me.
funny though, while we (my wife and I ) were watching it, we thought you took the shot because a few seconds earlier you had a great broadside, but he did not stop, we figure you were amped up, and "just did it" when you saw your next op. :dunno:
Does not really matter, an animal down, GREAT SHOT !!
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on April 11, 2012, 09:14:02 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 11, 2012, 09:23:32 PM
Post by: bucklucky on April 11, 2012, 09:28:04 PM
Post by: deerslyr on April 11, 2012, 09:36:21 PM
Post by: nwhunter on April 11, 2012, 09:48:05 PM
Post by: simondude on April 11, 2012, 10:11:06 PM
Post by: zackmioli on April 11, 2012, 11:34:28 PM
Post by: kentrek on April 12, 2012, 12:04:51 AM
i really don't believe hunters have the right to call one another ethical or unethical for taking such shots, also if a person is about to kill and is worried about what other hunters think, i kinda feel they're in the woods for the wrong reasons... :twocents:
Post by: washelkhunter on April 12, 2012, 01:12:19 AM
Post by: BowBender87 on April 12, 2012, 02:08:56 AM
Post by: LittleJohn on April 12, 2012, 04:08:05 AM
My mindset is, pass on the shot, I will have another opportunity :twocents: :twocents:
Post by: JPhelps on April 12, 2012, 05:03:19 AM
Looking back on it I probably wouldn't take the shot again. The part that bothers me the most is the branch I hit at about 20 yards. I did check my 20 pin against the branch and I didn't see the branch as a potential risk.
While it appeared to be a broadside shot for the camera I had too many limbs blocking the vitals. If you use the yellow flower as a reference it appears that when the bull turns back around he is about two feet further to the right.
In the end the bull died quickly, but I feel that too many things COULD have went wrong. I won't say that I will never take the shot again but things will need to be PERFECT.
Post by: coachcw on April 12, 2012, 06:50:18 AM
Post by: MIKEXRAY on April 12, 2012, 07:12:24 AM
Post by: Encore 280 on April 12, 2012, 07:24:35 AM
Post by: buglelk on April 12, 2012, 07:25:44 AM
I will take a frontal shot IF the conditions are right and the shot is right. It is the most devastating shot imaginable when taken correctly. If there is too much angle, you risk hitting the offside shoulder before getting into the vitals. If there is a very slight angle, you run the risk of "glancing" along the ribs and your arrow not getting inside the body cavity (sliding along between the rib cage and the shoulder blade). The angle has to be just right or head on....if it is and you hit your spot, you won't need to track the elk. Another mistake many hunters make with this shot is aiming too low and glancing off the sternum. You want to be above the sternum....if you are, the target is actually a bit bigger than you might imagine.
The long hair on the neck of an elk definitely doesn't prevent a good blood trail if the arrow is placed correctly. Nearly every major artery runs through this area from the brain to the front of the heart. If you put an arrow into the pocket, you have a mass of arteries, heart, lungs....complete devastation.
As far as the choice to make the shot, it is no different than how far you choose to shoot at a broadside elk. If you know your target and are confident in your abilities, a frontal shot is not necessarily a lower percentage shot. I would say that a frontal shot at 40 yards is a lower percentage shot than a broadside shot at 40 yards, but I would also personally be more comfortable taking a 20 yard frontal shot than a 40 yard broadside shot...
Many thanks,
Corey Jacobsen
Elk101.com - Extreme Elk Magazine
Post by: ELKBURGER on April 12, 2012, 11:56:00 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 12, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
Post by: mrmoskillz on April 12, 2012, 12:52:53 PM
Post by: blacktail luv on April 12, 2012, 12:59:28 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on April 12, 2012, 01:27:15 PM
Post by: rebal69972 on April 12, 2012, 05:03:35 PM
anyone one have a story of a frontal stot that went wrong they can share?personally i will never take a frontal shot again. i have not tried it with elk but i did with a deer many years ago 30 yards walking dead at me and go figure i pulled. The shot went through the rib cage and out just behind the front leg and never touched anything. we tracked it with maybe pencil size drops of blood for over 8 hours luckily we found him in a small black berry patch and was able to put another in him. i will never try it again but that's just me and i really think my hunting partners would kill me if i did try. 10 menx8 hours =1 deer
Post by: Basket Rack on April 12, 2012, 08:50:05 PM
Post by: MAVsled on April 12, 2012, 09:33:43 PM
the beast was at 25 yards, passed behind a small tree before I could settle pin & release then turned around the tree and headed straight head on and now downwind of my position. at draw noticed that its eyes got big, ears tipped back>I'd been made and just felt the bull was going to spin and bolt. I hit that pocket and it was over in less than 40 yards with bull down.
And I felt my shot was good but I was lucky, because an instant more and the bull would have turned. The end result might not have been what it was.
but with any kind of angle, I'd pass on a frontal shot choice. And I've passed on all front shots later on, too risky.
And never a frontal shot on deer, way too small a pocket.
IMHO: your end result was good, and that is all that's good about your shot decision.
I was shocked to watch your vid and hear the release, with those branches within the target zone and an angled animal facing forward. Then the branch getting hit and falling, not surprised at this from the arch of the arrow's path at 31 yards. Watching the elk move off; and noticing the arrow shaft at an angle from but bulls left-front side toward front chest. not an ideal front shot placement. You got lucky too.
We all live and learn....
Post by: JPhelps on April 12, 2012, 10:24:59 PM
I was aiming to the left of center. In my mind visualizing the vitals this would give me the front of one lung and the back of the other. The bull was quartered slightly at 10* or so. During the autopsy I confirmed that I got both lungs (only about the back 2.5" of the off side lung) and the liver. Ultimate result the bull expired within about 5 minutes of being shot.
With that being said looking back I did have some luck on my side (I have no problem admitting that I had a few things go my way). The branch could have deflected my arrow. On this shot there was no room for that. Also the bull didn't move until the arrow struck.
If I could do it all over I would pass on that shot and see if the bull ever presented a broadside shot. If not, I still have a tag in my pocket and I am doing what I love, calling in bulls. If I am ever to take a true frontal shot again the bull will have to be close (<20 yards) and ............... nah maybe I'll just wait for him to turn broadside. 8)
Post by: flinter on April 12, 2012, 11:11:03 PM
Post by: Elknut1 on April 13, 2012, 06:43:11 PM
Here's a frontal shot kill at 14 yds with a longbow I took!
ElkNut1
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on April 13, 2012, 09:19:24 PM
Post by: Doublelunger on April 13, 2012, 09:46:44 PM
Post by: JPhelps on April 13, 2012, 09:55:32 PM
Post by: bucklucky on April 13, 2012, 10:20:49 PM
Post by: Elknut1 on April 14, 2012, 05:35:00 AM
ElkNut1
Post by: throttlejocky20 on April 14, 2012, 04:53:32 PM
Post by: nwhunter on April 14, 2012, 08:40:09 PM
Post by: Bearhunter on April 14, 2012, 09:06:44 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on April 14, 2012, 10:15:03 PM
15yards or less and even that is not a gimmie.... To many variables during the heat of the moment to be a gimme... Last bull with my bow was at about 7 yards full frontal went 40yards and expired. But to add to that I have also lost one bull over the years and that was from a 5 yard frontal with some small limbs in the way and that was back when I competed in lots of 3d shoots and was a very profecent shot, its a low precentage shot period....
I think you summed it up pretty well... till the end. If you felt its a low percentage shot, why did you take it on your last bow bull? :dunno: Maybe im reading into your post if so I apologize.
I dont feel the shot in and of itself is a low percentage shot. The circumstance surrounding it can be. Also a low percentage shot for one archer may be a high percentage shot for another. Nothing in the real world of hunting will ever be 100 percent. That is the only given. I have taken the shot 4 times.... 3 resulted in dramatic kill. The 4th I wounded the bull....Not becaused I took a frontal shot but because I broke my own personal rule and shot when an elk was moving. I hit way outside glancing off the shoulder.. with minimal penetration. We called the bull in again several days later.... yes I was very ashamed, fortunate and lucky.
Will I take a frontal again? Yes. Will the elk be moving? No
Post by: AKBowman on April 15, 2012, 10:49:44 AM
As of today I would not take that shot, I would limit the shot to 20 yards for my self. That being said I would take the shot but reduce my yardage to 20 so...yes I would take the frontal shot just not the shot in the vid b/c of the yardage and my lack of confidence right now. Its hard to argue the effectiveness of a well placed frontal shot.
I missed a 30 yard shot last year but had to shoot through a hole the size of two grapefruits about 5 yards in front of the bull. I really thought I could make the shot and its a shot i practice, for some reason in the heat of the moment I didnt even come close and hit a log about 10 yards in front of me and my arrow's flight terminated right there. Later in the year with my confidence wavering I tried to make a perfect 12 yard heart shot on a broaddside decent 3X3 w/ eyeguards BT and missed my spot by 3 inches taking hair off of his chest. I retreived my arrow, placed a small 1" leaf where the buck had been standing, climbed back into my stand and stuck a broadhead through the leaf.
I was as low as low can get and until I make a good shot in the pressure of the moment I wont take anything but a classic broadside under 35yds. Just my feelings right now.
Post by: throttlejocky20 on April 15, 2012, 10:55:26 AM
Thats a great question Jason...if you asked me last year this time I would say yes, within 35 yards I would take that shot based off of 1: my past experiences of my gear performing on pentrating game and 2: my level of practice and confidence at the time 3: my skills and ability at tracking wounded game.I believe alot of people think that because they can make a shot on the range they can repeat it in the field. I practice alot and take alot of shots on the range I wouldn't in the field even knowing I have made a similiar shot 1000 times. To many other variables in the field to get cocky :twocents:
As of today I would not take that shot, I would limit the shot to 20 yards for my self. That being said I would take the shot but reduce my yardage to 20 so...yes I would take the frontal shot just not the shot in the vid b/c of the yardage and my lack of confidence right now. Its hard to argue the effectiveness of a well placed frontal shot.
I missed a 30 yard shot last year but had to shoot through a hole the size of two grapefruits about 5 yards in front of the bull. I really thought I could make the shot and its a shot i practice, for some reason in the heat of the moment I didnt even come close and hit a log about 10 yards in front of me and my arrow's flight terminated right there. Later in the year with my confidence wavering I tried to make a perfect 12 yard heart shot on a broaddside decent 3X3 w/ eyeguards BT and missed my spot by 3 inches taking hair off of his chest. I retreived my arrow, placed a small 1" leaf where the buck had been standing, climbed back into my stand and stuck a broadhead through the leaf.
I was as low as low can get and until I make a good shot in the pressure of the moment I wont take anything but a classic broadside under 35yds. Just my feelings right now.
Post by: AKBowman on April 15, 2012, 10:59:37 AM
Thats basically what happened to me with the dead stump. It was about 6" in diameter and busted off clean about 2' off the ground. I never saw it, the shot felt good then SMACK as soon as I released I look up and see my arrow sticking in a log about 10 yards in front of my. I remember thinking "how did that happen, Ive practiced this shot". In the pressure cooker of having a bugling bull in my face I get tunnell vision and need to learn to relax and realize my surrounding a bit better. This makes me realize I need a to settle for nothing but a higher percentage shot until I get a couple Elk under my belt.
Post by: Johnb317 on April 15, 2012, 11:11:17 AM
Even with all that I'd be hard presses to take a frontal shot, doesn't mean I won't study it and have it my quiver so to speak. I always said I wouldn't shoot at a moving animal, but last September he was walking slowly and the shot was slightly under 5 yards. Still enjoying the meat in the freezer.
Post by: AKBowman on April 15, 2012, 11:26:11 AM
Thats a great question Jason...if you asked me last year this time I would say yes, within 35 yards I would take that shot based off of 1: my past experiences of my gear performing on pentrating game and 2: my level of practice and confidence at the time 3: my skills and ability at tracking wounded game.I believe alot of people think that because they can make a shot on the range they can repeat it in the field. I practice alot and take alot of shots on the range I wouldn't in the field even knowing I have made a similiar shot 1000 times. To many other variables in the field to get cocky :twocents:
As of today I would not take that shot, I would limit the shot to 20 yards for my self. That being said I would take the shot but reduce my yardage to 20 so...yes I would take the frontal shot just not the shot in the vid b/c of the yardage and my lack of confidence right now. Its hard to argue the effectiveness of a well placed frontal shot.
I missed a 30 yard shot last year but had to shoot through a hole the size of two grapefruits about 5 yards in front of the bull. I really thought I could make the shot and its a shot i practice, for some reason in the heat of the moment I didnt even come close and hit a log about 10 yards in front of me and my arrow's flight terminated right there. Later in the year with my confidence wavering I tried to make a perfect 12 yard heart shot on a broaddside decent 3X3 w/ eyeguards BT and missed my spot by 3 inches taking hair off of his chest. I retreived my arrow, placed a small 1" leaf where the buck had been standing, climbed back into my stand and stuck a broadhead through the leaf.
I was as low as low can get and until I make a good shot in the pressure of the moment I wont take anything but a classic broadside under 35yds. Just my feelings right now.
Yeah I agree, experience is invaluable. But without getting out there and putting yourself in pressure situations there no other way to gain the experience. I guess theres no way to say your decision was a good one regardless of the percentages, its just a feeling ("green light" if you will) that happens in the heat of the situation.
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on April 20, 2012, 08:39:22 AM
Elk nut is the man. I've lost a bull broadside and hit a little high too. All depends on the shooter!
:yeah:
Post by: slim9300 on April 20, 2012, 05:22:41 PM
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Post by: 268bull on May 07, 2012, 02:21:01 PM
Post by: smartazz171 on June 08, 2012, 02:07:22 PM
I would not take it. It's a higher risk shot and more likely to lead to a lost elk. I always want broadside or quartered away. Killing an elk is awesome, but losing one is heartbreaking and not worth a risk. I want to shoot the highest percentage shots at close distances- i limit my range to 30 yards.
I agree! I know this is more of an individual ethics question then a right or wrong answer. My first elk I shot 2 years ago was a frontal shot at 5 yards; 65 lb bow Magnus 4 blade; hit the gugular (sp) and exited out the right lung. Didnt go 50 yards. But I can tell you I was deathly afraid of the "what ifs" until I heard the crash! You talk to a archery expert that's more worried about ethical effective kill shots on elk and not their ego, and even broadside 40 yards should be max. I know guys will say I'm wrong but ya you also can lob a half court shot and it can go in if aimed right, that doesn't mean it's a responsible shot to take. :twocents:
Post by: colockumelk on June 09, 2012, 08:06:01 AM