Hunting Washington Forum
Other Hunting => Coyote, Small Game, Varmints => Topic started by: wraithen on April 22, 2012, 10:09:55 AM
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Ok, so I've put a couple thousand rounds through my .223 now and I'm getting into reloading for economy and getting the bullets I want when I want them. I'm in the army and know the basics of shooting. I know for a fact that my rifle is at least an MOA rifle because I did it once. My normal groups at 100 for a 5-7 round group are about 2 inches. The biggest problem I have now that I've gotten used to using a scope is I usually can't get the scope to settle down. I have a set of bipod legs and I've tried various positions with my arms to settle the rifle. I've tried my left arm up on the stock, wrapped around the back of the stock and locked on my right bicep, and resting my cheek on my left hand as it steadies the butt of the rifle (all three are different positions.) For whatever reason, I usually have an issue getting the rifle to be still enough to keep crosshairs on the X, at least for the first round of the magazine. After that I can usually get a pretty steady shot and my next 4 shots are much quicker and steadier. Are there any tricks to getting myself to not be pulsing so much for the first shots of the magazine? The scope is only a 9 power but I kind of need that to see the X accurately. I feel like I'm on the verge of getting clover leafs consistently but can't quite get there. Anyone else have this problem before and know how to get past it?
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for me personally when shooting off a bipod i will hold my hands just like i hold a pistol, not the cup and saucer technique but the "other" way, ill explain. im right handed so my right hand goes on the grip and trigger as it normally would and i put the palm of my left hand on my right fingers, pretty much a two hand grip on the grip of the rifle. this allows me to use my elbows as a rear bipod, in prone my elbows are on the ground and in a sitting position i rest them on my knees. once im steady ill exhale, hold my breathe and squeeze off the shot. ive tried the off hand on top of the comb resting my cheek on it, under the stock holding my bicep and a few other positions and the dual hand pistol grip works best for me.
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1st thing is to control your breathing ...take a couple deep breaths and let out half of your next while holding the other half .... eventually if your really concentrating on the bullseye... the movement will slowly get steadier... usually as it starts slowing down I start to put pressure on the trigger and has the crosshairs hit the center of the bullseye I will squeeze it off ....I always squeeze the trigger by slowly applying pressure by tightening up my finger pressure....some people will squeeze on a quicker note but when the gun goes off it should be a total surprise to you ....knowing when it is going off usually means your worried about the kick or your jerking the trigger.....My dad taught me about jerking the trigger the hard way .... :chuckle: I think I was 7 or so and we were out shooting and he kept saying I was jerking the trigger ...Of course I called BS :chuckle: He HAD ME SO PISSED I way :'( So I walked off to cool down and when I got back I got back on the.243 took aim AND CLICK ... The gun raised up 2 inches and did not go off .... :yoke: :dunno: He turns to me and said ( NOW ) Your not jerking the trigger ? That thought has been in my head for 30 + yrs and I done it to my boys too ... :Tupi:
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yup
trigger pull is everything, this is why so many folks upgrade triggers to jewell or timney triggers - it's to facilitate their trigger pulls with a better trigger
if your blood pressure is high and your pulse is hard and pulsing good luck
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Can we see a picture of your shooting stance?
As mentioned, trigger pull can make it difficult..... but honestly taking up archery for a year probably made me a better shot with the rifle.
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if your off a bench, use sand bags, and dont flinch
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Trigger control and lots of shooting on paper. A crisp trigger and breath control with a slow heartbeat.
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I shoot for groups the way I learned to benchrest shoot. The front bags or bipod control side motion, and squeezing the bag under the buttplate, or just using my fist to control the elevation. After that, it's like Flattop 44 says: trigger and breathing. I even put my left hand under the buttplate when I'm kneeling with the bipod extended. I find it steadies me a bit more in my shaky old age. :'(
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cheek weld.
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Don't stop breathing. Teach yourself to shoot at the 'bottom' of your exhale. When shooting off a bi pod, learn to load the bi pod. When shooting prone off a bi pod and rear bag, learn/ teach yourself to build your shooting position so you are straight behind the rifle and your NPA is correct.
You really need to understand the basics first. When you correctly build your shooting position, recoil, jump will be minimized. Stay on the rifle as you cycle the bolt. Your head should never leave the stock while shooting a string from a bolt gun. Learn trigger control. Learn how to squeeze the trigger and what part of the finger and what angle the finger is to the trigger.
Again, do not stop breathing. That is the wrong way.
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lots and lots of lead down range and then it just happens practice is everything
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I know for a fact that my rifle is at least an MOA rifle because I did it once.
That doesn't mean anything. If I hit enough golf balls, I may eventually get a hole in one but that doesn't make me Tiger Woods (thankfully). Have someone else shoot your gun and ammunition. Two inches may be the best that combination is consistently capable of.
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:) one word, RELAX :chuckle: yer trying too hard. relax, sight picture, rifle is firing ! do it again.
Carl
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I can almost fall asleep on the rifle :chuckle:
tried to learn all I could from my ol man.
Offhand and pistol is where I shine - confidence plays a role too
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I can almost fall asleep on the rifle :chuckle:
tried to learn all I could from my ol man.
Offhand and pistol is where I shine - confidence plays a role too
:yeah: the only thing moving is that trigger and your finger :tup: control your breathing and work around your heart beat...
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I don't know what kind of rifle you are using. There are reasons some companies have the "MOA guarantee". 2 MOA could easily be considered acceptable accuracy for an off the shelf rifle. 2" 5-7 shot groups at 100 yards could very well be what your rifle is capable of.
As far as optics go. Keep in mind that the higher your magnification level the more the reticule with traslate small movements of the rifle to the eye. That swooping figure eight motion can play havoc with some folks. Try dialing down the magnification to 6 or 7x and see how you shoot.
The pulsing is either heart rate or breathing and those two things are related. To settle your heart rate down try doing a quick breathing exercise to get to your resting heart rate before you settle behind the rifle to shoot. In through the nose out through the mouth type of thing. Not exactly a practical exercise, but if your shooting for groups it may help.
And as everyone else has said, practice practice practice. You don't have to go to the range to practice all your shooting skills. Competitive shooters have spend countless hours at home practicing shooting positions, sight alignment, breathing, and trigger pull.
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very good point .... :tup: :tup I always shoot on lower powers ...
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I tried lower powers but I shoot worse. It helps me to see that little bit of movement. I BRAS every shot. Breathe, relax, aim, squeeeeeeze. If I'm shooting a string I don't move off my cheek weld. For some reason the second shot takes about 1/4 the time to steady as the first. The other 3 are about the same amount of time as the second. It's just getting that randomly turning figure 8 to settle down to only moving around on the x instead of everywhere else.
I'm shooting a factory savage stevens 200 in .223. I have a nikon prostaff 3-9x40 on top. I can hit my 2 1/2 in spinner pretty consistently out to 200 yards if it's calm. Something about that illusive X sitting in the middle of all those rings. I have been getting better. I know my trigger would make it easier if I got it worked or changed it and I know for a fact if I could change out my gumby-esk stock I could apply a little pressure to steady the gun but I can't justify that to the wife and I'd rather work on me and then the rifle. I love getting trigger time so I have no qualms about spending a few hours at a range every weekend. Maybe more practice until I shrink my groups. I am about 4 times better than I was 6 months ago so maybe I'm just getting impatient with myself. :dunno:
Thanks for all the advice guys. None of it seems off the mark. As far as not breathing or not stopping breathing... I usually use my lungs to bring my sight up on the X. It's the easiest way to fine tune elevation for me.
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that might just be what your gun is capable of :sry:
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I go to higher (max) power but decrease the size and even shape of the target. A chevron or a box, even try a crosshair target that you cover with your crosshairs. If on a bench with sandbags, for grouping purposes I'll even put a sandbag over the top of the rifle (over the scope and over the back of the stock by the shoulder).
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Gun and shooting technique aside you will never get consistently tight groups without quality ammunition. This doesn't just mean expensive off the shelf stuff. You might get lucky with a factory load but usually the best accuracy can be achieved by loading your own.
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One of the reasons I got my setup icecap. I'm still working up loads for it though. I went too conservative with my first loads. Started seeing the holes getting closer together but that was my highest two loads and they were .5 grain away from max load published by lyman. Haven't been able to get to a range since due to the weather being nice and the wife needing my back to do various improvements.
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Gun and shooting technique aside you will never get consistently tight groups without quality ammunition. This doesn't just mean expensive off the shelf stuff. You might get lucky with a factory load but usually the best accuracy can be achieved by loading your own.
3 shots with $20 a box factory ammo at 100 yards. :chuckle:
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The biggest thing is to relax and be comfortable while shooting. Don't grip the rifle hard. If your not using a good rear bag, then get one. The rifle should stay on target by itself without you having to make any major adjustments. Without seeing your form, its hard to say. If your down in my area, let me know and I can take a look at how you shoot and offer some pointers.
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Nice group Addicted!
Most rifles take a bit of work before you find a load that shoots well.
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Nice group Addicted!
Most rifles take a bit of work before you find a load that shoots well.
Thanks cap.
I'm sorry it was a spur of the momen smart ass post as this is not a normal rifle that put out that group.
I still request a picture of the originaly poster's shooting form.
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As far as not breathing or not stopping breathing... I usually use my lungs to bring my sight up on the X. It's the easiest way to fine tune elevation for me.
This might be part of your problem here.
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This is a topic I could go on and on about but it looks like most people have already given you pretty good advice. However, there is one very important thing that has not been mentioned here that I noticed (I could have missed it) and it often causes the jumping crosshairs you describe when trying to hold steady on target. When it comes to attempting to shoot extremely tight groups, or long distance there is a concept known as Natural Point of Aim (NPA) which is very important. Basically, if you were to get into a completely relaxed position with proper shooting form whether prone, seated at a bench or what have you, as you sit in that position there is a natural place where the barrel specifically tends to point on a target. This point is determined by a culmination of several factors including your position, the position of your weapon, the weight and balance of the weapon, heighth of the bipods, etc... The farther away from the NPA that your intended specific target is, the more you will have to "work" to get the crosshairs to cover your target and the less accurate you will be. This often shows up as jumping crosshairs that you referred to. The key is to adjust one or more of the factors affecting the position of you and your weapon until your NPA is directly where you want to hit. One way of doing this that I use when shooting from a bench or prone is to get 95% of the way into my firing position then I close my eyes and relax. After bringing the rifle into position, making sure I have proper cheek weld, and making sure I'm in a properly supported but relaxed firing position, I begin my breathing cycle and then I open my eyes. Hopefully, the crosshairs are right dead center at the natural pause at the end of each breath but most of the time I have to adjust a few things a bit before this becomes the case. Once you have the NPA right on target you begin the process that other here discussed regarding making the shot. It is my opinion that NPA plays a critical role in really shooting as accurately as you and your rifle are capable of. Hope that helps.
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I'm not sure if your trying to shoot tighter groups or be a better shot. To be a better shot practice makes perfect and it sounds like your are doing that. If you are trying to shot tight groups you need to slow down. You will never see what your rifle is capable of shooting by shooting 5-7 shots in a row. You need to shoot slow enough that your barrel doesn't heat up and have the best possible rest you can get. Shoot off of sand bags or a good mechanical rest, not bi pods save those for hunting
