Post by: HUNT on May 07, 2012, 10:43:12 AM
For those guys who have hunted with outfitters before - what questions did you or should you have asked the references he supplied you?
Post by: h20hunter on May 07, 2012, 10:54:27 AM
Post by: Alaskan on May 07, 2012, 10:44:07 PM
Post by: lokidog on May 07, 2012, 11:02:16 PM
Post by: RadSav on May 08, 2012, 01:49:50 AM
It's easy to do your homework about a guides territory and the animals it produces. I can make up my mind very quickly about territory. But spending that kind of money to spend 10 or more days 24 hours a day with a drunken slob who could care less about making your "Hunt of a Lifetime" enjoyable is my biggest concern.
Second on my list is food! I've had great guides that I will no longer hunt with simply because I had no energy to hunt because nutrition was so bad and the food inedible. Sometimes that just means I bring at least three days of my own food to suppliment the awful stuff. One guide in BC was such a bad cook I had to use a knife to eat/cut a cheese omlette. I liked the guy so I booked another trip, but told him I would do the cooking and arrange all the meals. We are now best of friends and I was even invited to his wedding.
Especially when hunting up north with no roads and big bears I like to ask if the client felt safe the whole time. Gun saftey, bear awareness all part of professionalism. If they did not feel safe or had a tale to tell it's a good bet the guide was laking in preperation and professionalism. In NWT we saw big bears almost every day and hiked some very nasty stuff. Sleeping in a little tent with nothing more than a stick and a string there was never a moment I felt uneasy. That's the kind of feeling you want to have with a not just a good guide, but a "great" guide.
There are no guarantees as many outfits change guides and have many on staff. But if you ask the right questions of their references you will begin to notice a repetition of names. Book early enough and you can usually ask for a particular guide. Sometimes it might even be a good idea to extend your plans for a year to get the right guy. If it's a once in a lifetime/hunt of a lifetime it's definately worth the wait.
I've taken some fantastic trophies with beautiful mounts in the house that I find I get no satisfaction looking at. I have other animals many might not take a second look at that I look at almost every day with great joy and memories. So often a good hunt and a great experience has less to do with the animal you harvest and more the adventure up to and after the kill. I prefer to hunt by myself. However, up north you just do not have that luxery most of the time. So you are stuck with some stranger with hopes and prayers your personalities work well together. I have yet to have a poor experience when at the end of the trip I say to myself, "I'm going to miss that guy." Great animal or not.
Good luck. Hope you have a great hunt!
Post by: whacker1 on May 08, 2012, 05:16:33 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on May 08, 2012, 05:24:40 AM
Post by: HUNT on May 08, 2012, 07:40:41 AM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on May 08, 2012, 08:37:40 AM
Post by: woodman on May 08, 2012, 08:55:55 AM
Success rate would be my first question, then all the others would follow.
CAMPMEAT, I would agree with, this but some lie like dogs and have pretty good stories and videos to back up their tall tales. It cost me and four other guys $25,000.00 to find this out >:( (glad to see you back)
Post by: CAMPMEAT on May 08, 2012, 10:03:06 AM
Success rate would be my first question, then all the others would follow.
CAMPMEAT, I would agree with, this but some lie like dogs and have pretty good stories and videos to back up their tall tales. It cost me and four other guys $25,000.00 to find this out >:( (glad to see you back)
Thanks. $25,000 YIKES !!!!! Everybody lies huh !
Post by: HUNT on May 08, 2012, 10:26:15 AM
It cost me and four other guys $25,000.00 to find this out >:( [/quote]
Exactly what I want to avoid....
Post by: CAMPMEAT on May 08, 2012, 11:08:19 AM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 08, 2012, 11:11:16 AM
Ask how many hunters they will be running threw camp and ask how many will be there when you are there. Find out a maximum number from the outfitter. It sucks to get into a camp and have 10 other guys standing around when you thought it was supposed to be more of a one on one deal.
Don't just get 1-2 references ask for several and like said ask for people that did not harvest a animal.
Success rate is a way over rated thing to ask about. Yes I just said that!!! The thing you need to ask is about shot opportunity!!! There are lots of guys that pass a lot of great animals holding out for big critters and never end up shooting one. That hurts a lot of the outfitters with honest success rate. I deal with a few high end outfitters that run around 60% success rate. Sure it sounds like crap but all there hunters will always tell you they saw tons of animals and had lots of chances to shoot solid animals. They just held out and did not shoot a mid sized animal that to some would be big. So ask about shot opportunity rather then a success %. As long as they can put you on the animals for you to decide if they are big enough they are doing there job well. A harvest number does not always tell the whole story.
Post by: bearpaw on May 08, 2012, 11:12:50 AM
I am looking to book an outfitted hunt in Alaska in the next couple of weeks and am getting ready to contact outfitters references. I have never hired a guide before so I was looking for a little help.
For those guys who have hunted with outfitters before - what questions did you or should you have asked the references he supplied you?
Even though I am an outfitter, I have also hunted with many other outfitters. It's more important to me that I have a good time on the hunt than anything else.
Here's my best recommendation.
Ask people you know or hunters here on the forum which outfitter they liked for the species you want to hunt. Then contact the ones which are recommended to you as being good and ask some of the questions Radsav and carpsniper pointed out, they are good questions.
Hope you have a great time,
Dale
Post by: HUNT on May 08, 2012, 11:16:21 AM
What are you gonna hunt ?
Dall Sheep. Possibly with a moose combo/ depending on additional cost.
Post by: woodman on May 08, 2012, 11:33:42 AM
I am looking to book an outfitted hunt in Alaska in the next couple of weeks and am getting ready to contact outfitters references. I have never hired a guide before so I was looking for a little help.
For those guys who have hunted with outfitters before - what questions did you or should you have asked the references he supplied you?
Even though I am an outfitter, I have also hunted with many other outfitters. It's more important to me that I have a good time on the hunt than anything else.
Here's my best recommendation.
Ask people you know or hunters here on the forum which outfitter they liked for the species you want to hunt. Then contact the ones which are recommended to you as being good and ask some of the questions Radsav and carpsniper pointed out, they are good questions.
Hope you have a great time,
Dale
Bearpaw, I find this interesting what you and carpsniper2 have to say. I would agree that shot opportunity would count very high. When guys spend thousands of dollars they at least expect to have a chance. When I talk about the $25,000.00 dollars that was spent on my trip with absolutely zero opportunity, they also said that it was about the outdoor experience. That was not brought up in the front end of the trip, only afterwards. I can have a lot of enjoyment for a heck of a lot less money than going on a glorified camping trip. I am sure your trips are great, but there sure are some buggers out there. Mine happened a few years ago and I still have hard feelings about it. I see the outfitter out the Puyallup Sportsman show every year and I wait for him to get done talking to prospective clients. When they are done talking I walk up to them down and fill them in on what happened with my group.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 08, 2012, 11:49:24 AM
Post by: woodman on May 08, 2012, 11:58:11 AM
For sure woodman. There is a lot of things that are cheaper and closer to home to do then go on a guided hunt and not get a animal. All a outfitter can do is give 110% to try and get a animal for there clients. A lot over sell there hunts have way to many hunters in camp to deal with and other flat ass don't have the animals. That is why you do your homework best that you can and make solid decisions. Part of my business is being a booking agent- I make not one red cent off any of my clients but put my name on the line everytime I send one to a outfitter. In all god's honest truth I deal with between 50-60 outfitters and year and talk to around 100-200 references and hunters each year. More then probably just about any person out there. I am not going to be there to make sure things go right so I have to trust the outfitters 100% with my clients and know they are going to represent themselves well and me. I have about 20 outfitters that I trust 100%. I will not sell a hunt for a outfitter if I do not know them or have dealt with them before. Most times I hunt with a outfitter before ever sending my clients to them. That way I know first hand how they are in the world out outfitting and guiding. So yes everyone wants to shoot a animal. Some are happy with a spike bull others want a 400" or will go home empty handed. That is why I put so much into shot opportunity. If I can have a great trip and a chance to harvest a animal I am after then I am happy. I have had lots of good hunts where I did not kill a animal and walked away empty handed but the hunt was well worth the cost :tup: Hope that helps.
I appreciate very much what you have to say here. We did a lot of homework, just saying that we were flat out lied to. We put a lot of energy up front on this hunt and not only did we not get a shot opportunity, we never saw an animal period. There was a group that came out when we got there and they were all VERY PISSED. They also were misled. Have you ever heard of an outfitter with the name Ford in it?
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 08, 2012, 12:10:14 PM
I watch a lot of sites and have note books full of documented hunts and experience with outfitters that I don't even know. I just love seeing feedback from random people that have nothing to gain by saying good things. They just give a honest write up and tell it how it is. Some people pay to use sites to check out the background on some outfitters, yes they have sites for that. I have my books and logs. In today's world a guy can get onto a place like this and ask about outfitters and have honest guys pop up and give feedback about hunts they have been on. Very solid and reliable feedback where they have nothing to gain or make no money. That is why I never charge my clients anything yet give them my word with my outfitters. Its a free peace of mind to anyone that wants it and it helps eliminate the what if factor.
Post by: bearpaw on May 08, 2012, 01:18:09 PM
But no matter if a trip is successful or unsuccessful, I would still want to enjoy the hunt and the people I am hunting with. It has seemed to me that hunts where everyone is having a great time and there is no friction seem to be the most successful. Maybe I am crazy, but it seems that way to me.
HUNT
Sorry about hijacking the topic from the original question, but maybe all this other talk will help in some way. If I remember correctly, Norsepeak has had success with an outfitter on Dall Sheep, you might message him and ask who. There are other hunters on H-W who have hunted dall sheep as well, I would suggest digging around the forum and asking them if they recommend the outfitter they went with. GOOD LUCK... :tup:
Post by: HUNT on May 08, 2012, 01:19:42 PM
One of the outfitters I am looking at says that he asks that all of his clients are on a rotating reference list.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on May 08, 2012, 01:36:00 PM
I don't have dall sheep hunts. I have some stone sheep hunts in BC that can also add bou and goats.
Post by: bearpaw on May 08, 2012, 01:39:55 PM
Post by: HUNT on May 08, 2012, 02:14:41 PM
Post by: RadSav on May 08, 2012, 08:57:51 PM
Would love a stone sheep hunt. But they are a little out of my price range.....
When it comes to sheep hunts you usually get what you pay for! Alaska has some very good deals, but often you had better be in some dang good shape. All sheep hunts take good conditioning for full enjoyment. However, every successful dall hunter I have talked to hunting AK has busted their hump well beyond anything I have done. Definately not a hunt for an aging fat *censored* like myself.
Anything less than $25,000 for a dall or stone hunt would bring up HUGE RED FLAGS in my book. The great ones like Ramhead or Simpson Stone are usually booked years ahead. They also have their own planes and helicopters managing unexpected (surprise!!) costs dramatically. Nothing worse than budgeting and saving for a $30,000 hunt. And then finding out just before you leave your air taxi fees are another $3,000 and getting your trophy home is another $4,000 and your second animal cost did not include a $4,500 trophy fee. Really have to watch those add on's when getting a "Good Deal" with an average service. Hell, even some dang good services have caught me by surprise with fees.
Don't forget that you have to get your sheep through customs and your moose horns crated and shipped home some way. Customs is getting really tough on sheep and goats. Your guide will need to COMPLETELY remove any brain matter. A letter from your guide stating the skull has been cleaned with boiling water is also a great help. Most airlines will not allow moose or caribou horns as baggage anymore. You will want to check out how your outfitter deals with this. If they have a well thought out plan and instructions I wouldn't worry too much. But many just say, "You have to arrange and pay for that yourself." If that is the case I once again throw up the "RED FLAG".
I've flipped the coin a few times on hunts I knew nothing about, but the cost was so good I just could not pass up taking the risk. In these cases (usualy last minute hunt opportunities) it has been a "book at your own risk" frame of mind. Usually an animal I have never hunted before and never wanted to pay full price for. I began each of these hunts with the attitude that I just needed to get away from the shop for a few days so what the heck. If I score I score if not I should at least have a good time and shed some of the stress of day to day business. Not a single one of these hunts surprised me by being so outstanding I would say it was the hunt of a lifetime or that they were the cream of the crop in their species. However, I have returned to hunt with a few of these guys again for more popular species and had great experiences. So there is always the possibility of pleasant surprises, but I would not risk full sheep hunt prices on outfitters selling their services at the local sportman's show. The great ones are not going to be there.
Post by: dvolmer on June 26, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
Post by: seth30 on June 26, 2012, 03:27:59 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on June 26, 2012, 04:45:45 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on June 26, 2012, 04:46:47 PM
Post by: Bob33 on June 26, 2012, 05:08:44 PM
As Dale pointed out, try to solicit feedback from others who have hunted with them but are not on the reference list.
The guide / PH needs to have a hunting style that matches yours. I've hunted with some that were akin to a hardcore drill sargeant, and others that didn't give a rip.
You also need to be clear about what you expect. Do you want a pleasant hunt, or are you willing to hike 10 miles in the dark to look for a trophy? What kind of condition are you in? What types of shots are you comfortable with? Will your outfitter accommodate these conditions?
Post by: fair-chase on June 26, 2012, 05:10:03 PM
Post by: brianmtsinc on June 26, 2012, 06:13:52 PM
Bearpaw, I find this interesting what you and carpsniper2 have to say. I would agree that shot opportunity would count very high. When guys spend thousands of dollars they at least expect to have a chance. When I talk about the $25,000.00 dollars that was spent on my trip with absolutely zero opportunity, they also said that it was about the outdoor experience. That was not brought up in the front end of the trip, only afterwards. I can have a lot of enjoyment for a heck of a lot less money than going on a glorified camping trip. I am sure your trips are great, but there sure are some buggers out there. Mine happened a few years ago and I still have hard feelings about it. I see the outfitter out the Puyallup Sportsman show every year and I wait for him to get done talking to prospective clients. When they are done talking I walk up to them down and fill them in on what happened with my group.
[/quote]
Woodman, My buddy and I do the exact same thing! See the guy every year at the sportsman show and do our best to try and save a would be sucker from falling into the same trap we did.
Ours was only a $4k loss, but to us it was a hunt of a lifetime, and it happened back in 2007 and we are still burnt on the whole "guide thing".
Our experience had nothing to do with animals (although that was poor too) and everything to do with the attitude of the guide. He was an ass from the first morning when he walked out of camp without us and expected us to catch him, to calling to me after I hit a bull and said, "come take a look at this blood, I am sure you have seen more archery hits then I have!!" ... followed by "F'n arrow shooters.... " :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Horrible experience, but we have saved at least four other people from the same fate and there is some solace in that.
HUNT - My number 1 questions to every reference you call - "did you like your guide?"
Best of luck!!!
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 26, 2012, 06:30:01 PM
Never been on a guided hunt, but in this day and age of over hyped celebrity hunters, I would ask if they are going to have any "professional hunters" filming with their outfit in the year you are planning on booking. It appears this is a major form of advertising for outfitters these days and I would not want to be hunting with an outfitter during the same season as a celebrity hunter. Even if the outfitter is a stand up individual there would be an inherent amount of pressure to perform for that client over you, the average joe hunter. I also would not want my hard earned money taking a backseat to some fancy pants celebrity. :twocents:
Fairchase most times I agree with you but strongly disagree with you on this one. Why some outfitters might put extra effort into a big name client. It is not fair for you to judge like that and lump all of us together. I put just as much effort into all my trips no matter the client. So you say that because i had the alwines here last year. You would not hunt with me because you would feel like I would put more into there trip then yours? Come on now, that's not even close to the right way of thinking my friend.
Post by: fair-chase on June 26, 2012, 07:19:25 PM
Never been on a guided hunt, but in this day and age of over hyped celebrity hunters, I would ask if they are going to have any "professional hunters" filming with their outfit in the year you are planning on booking. It appears this is a major form of advertising for outfitters these days and I would not want to be hunting with an outfitter during the same season as a celebrity hunter. Even if the outfitter is a stand up individual there would be an inherent amount of pressure to perform for that client over you, the average joe hunter. I also would not want my hard earned money taking a backseat to some fancy pants celebrity. :twocents:
Fairchase most times I agree with you but strongly disagree with you on this one. Why some outfitters might put extra effort into a big name client. It is not fair for you to judge like that and lump all of us together. I put just as much effort into all my trips no matter the client. So you say that because i had the alwines here last year. You would not hunt with me because you would feel like I would put more into there trip then yours? Come on now, that's not even close to the right way of thinking my friend.
Your right Carp, I shouldn't lump all outfitters into the same category like that. For that I apologize. I still have some strong opinions on this subject but I will try to illustrate them better and not be quite so accusatory towards outfitters as a whole.
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2012, 09:22:41 PM
I have never met a reputable guide that became one to improve his social status. Most do it because they enjoy the life and to make a living. Keeping all the big bulls and bucks to themselves doesn't lend itself to a successful business or to preserving their way of life. That argument just does not hold any weight!
Your major celebrities like the Eastmans can really hunt wherever and with whomever they want most of the time. They don't often open up the guide directory and throw a dart at the page to figure who they will be hunting with that year. It sometimes comes down to money, but far more often it comes down to a lot of research and a guides reputation. For me that puts a plus sign in that guides book.
Now if they are guiding some wannabe loud mouth celeb who has really never accomplished anything more than slutting themselves out to whomever will give them a discounted trip or product...Now that is a different story. But, those guys are usually flash pan celebs and the guide service will often times just be looking for ad exposure too. They are perfect for one another, but not usually perfect for me.
If Dwight Schuh, Larry Jones, Guy Eastman, Randy Ulmer, Craig Boddington, Wayne Van Zwoll, Jim Zumbo, Chuck Adams or other reputable celebs of character are hunting with my chosen outfit a few miles away I am feeling pretty good. I know that means I am where the big animals are. So maybe they have the senior guide working with them and I have some schmo that only has a few years experience. Who really cares!! That's a good reason to have a little peace pipe conversation with your guide telling him, "What do you say about really hitting this hard and showing up those guys?" I bet you would have the time of your life. If no celeb was on the mountain that day it would simply be "hunt as usual". And you would still have no guarantee of having that senior guide with you.
When it comes to guiding - The best of the best did not get there by playing games. They've reached that level through proper territory acquisition, hard work, proper management and customer service. I don't care whether they hunt their territory or have multiple celebrities sharing the camp with me. Those are the guys I want to hunt with. Because they are the best of the best and some no-name Joe Schmoe like myself can use all the help I can get.
Post by: lhrbull on June 26, 2012, 11:08:19 PM
Post by: jgrimes on June 27, 2012, 12:10:02 AM
Not sure if you've looked into this outfitter. They have options for combination hunts as well. All hunts are done with horses (except their glacier ram hunt). They have been in the outfitting business for a long time.
I'm heading there in October to work towards my Alaska Assistant Guide License. I've been in contact with them and they seem like a really close knit outfitter family. Anyways, best of luck with your search.
Post by: jgrimes on June 27, 2012, 12:28:21 AM
An article about one of Pioneer's sheep hunts.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 27, 2012, 01:13:26 AM
Never been on a guided hunt, but in this day and age of over hyped celebrity hunters, I would ask if they are going to have any "professional hunters" filming with their outfit in the year you are planning on booking. It appears this is a major form of advertising for outfitters these days and I would not want to be hunting with an outfitter during the same season as a celebrity hunter. Even if the outfitter is a stand up individual there would be an inherent amount of pressure to perform for that client over you, the average joe hunter. I also would not want my hard earned money taking a backseat to some fancy pants celebrity. :twocents:
Fairchase most times I agree with you but strongly disagree with you on this one. Why some outfitters might put extra effort into a big name client. It is not fair for you to judge like that and lump all of us together. I put just as much effort into all my trips no matter the client. So you say that because i had the alwines here last year. You would not hunt with me because you would feel like I would put more into there trip then yours? Come on now, that's not even close to the right way of thinking my friend.
Your right Carp, I shouldn't lump all outfitters into the same category like that. For that I apologize. I still have some strong opinions on this subject but I will try to illustrate them better and not be quite so accusatory towards outfitters as a whole.
There is the fair chase I know :tup: Glad to have you back bud. I cant speak for all outfitters but you have my word I would give you 110% weather your name is guy eastman or john doe/ show or no show. I will do my best for everyone that hunts with me.
Post by: rasbo on June 27, 2012, 05:45:02 AM
Post by: Opportunist on July 06, 2012, 03:33:27 PM
I would research where you want to hunt first, contact forest service personnel or provincial reps. and ask about outfitters in the area and ask about issues with their permitting or violations of their land use permits.
Then contact the outfitters/guide association and check on their status within the organization and past complaints. I found an outfitter at a sportsmans show that had no land use permit or guide license in wyoming when I checked on them.
GOOGLE them. Find the good, the bad and the ugly.
I would then contact them. Reference lists are a waste of time. These are successful clients, everyone is happy when they are successful. My dad and I hunted with an outfitter in Idaho whose references sounded great, I contacted 4-5, went on the hunt and found out they were as crooked as a dogs hind leg.
I'll utilize outfitters for packing services and access to tags, but that's about it.
Post by: GUscottie on July 15, 2012, 11:45:12 AM
I have to admit, I've not done a super pricy, once in a lifetime hunt, but I want to have a good time, enjoy my company, and get out of it what I pay. If its OIL hunt, I want to have a decent opportunity, maybe not success, but at least the hunt I'll remember forever. I have to admit, my last deer was more memorable than anything, so far.
Best of luck!