Hunting Washington Forum

Community => Outdoor Advocacy & Agencies => Topic started by: Bob33 on December 02, 2014, 05:50:23 PM

Title: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 02, 2014, 05:50:23 PM
Received today.


State of Washington
DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND WILDLIFE
Mailing Address:  600 Capitol Way N, Olympia, WA 98501-1091 • (360) 902-2200 • TDD (360) 902-2207
Main Office Location: Natural Resources Building, 1111 Washington Street SE, Olympia, WA


December 2, 2014

M E M O

To:      Hunter Education Instructors

From:      David Whipple, Hunter Education Division Manager

SUBJECT:   ANALYSIS OF INITIATIVE 594

Dear Instructors,

During the November election, the voters enacted Initiative 594, concerning background checks on firearm sales and transfers.  I-594 becomes effective on December 4, 2014.  The Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW), in close consultation with our legal counsel in the Attorney General’s Office, has assessed the potential effects of I-594 on the Hunter Education Program, our instructors, and our prospective students.  We do not believe that I-594 will significantly affect the program. 

I will briefly summarize our analysis below.  More detail will follow in the next few days. 
•   I-594 requires that all firearms sales or transfers in Washington be subject to background checks and be made through licensed dealers, unless specifically exempted. 
•   I-594 exempts all law enforcement agencies from the background check/transfer requirement. WDFW, as a general authority Washington law enforcement agency pursuant to RCW 10.93.020(1), is therefore exempt from this requirement.  Any firearms purchase, sale or transfer to or from WDFW or WDFW employees when acting within the scope of their authority, is exempt from the background check/transfer requirement in I-594. 
•   The Hunter Education Program is a WDFW program authorized by state law pursuant to RCW 77.32.155(1)(a).  Hunter Education Instructors, when in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program, act on behalf of WDFW, and are therefore exempt from the background check/transfer requirements.  This exemption extends to Hunter Education Instructors whether or not they are actually in the classroom, provided that they are in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program.  (Firearms transfers by Hunter Education Instructors that are not for the purpose of the Hunter Education Program and within the scope of their authority as WDFW volunteers, are not entitled to this exemption.)
•   Transfers of firearms between Hunter Education Instructors (when in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program) and sports clubs, gun clubs, and other non-governmental organizations (NGOs) are also exempt from the background check/transfer requirements.   
•   Transfers of firearms between Hunter Education Instructors and Hunter Education students are also exempt from the background check/transfer requirements of I-594, when the Hunter Education Instructors are in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program.  Again, this is because the firearm transfer is to or from Hunter Education Instructors acting on behalf of WDFW, a law enforcement agency. 
•   I-594 contains limited specific exemptions for certain temporary transfers of firearms kept at shooting ranges and temporary transfers of firearms to persons under the eighteen for educational purposes.  Although Hunter Education instruction is an educational purpose and may occur at a shooting range, these two exemptions do not limit or override the broader background check exemption applicable to law enforcement agencies. Therefore, within the constraints described above, transfers of firearms between volunteer Hunter Education Instructors and students are exempt by virtue of WDFW being a law enforcement agency, regardless of the age of the student, and regardless of whether the firearm is removed from a shooting range.
•   Although we are still evaluating I-594, it does not initially appear that student-to-student transfers of firearms would fall within the general WDFW exemption for law enforcement agencies.  For students under eighteen, however, temporary firearms transfers for educational purposes are exempt if the student is under the direct supervision and control of a responsible adult (such as a Hunter Education Instructor) who may lawfully possess firearms.   Students eighteen and older are not entitled to this exemption.  However, regardless of the age of the person, temporary transfers that occur at an established, authorized shooting range are also exempt, if the transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at the range.  If adult student-to-student transfers are not exempt, then adult students may, without triggering I-594’s background check/transfer requirements—
   Use inert firearms or air rifles (which do not meet the definition of a firearm); or
   Hand their functional firearms to an instructor who then hands it to the other student.

In summary, the transfer/background check exemption I- 594 applies to the following transfers of firearms to or from WDFW Hunter Education Instructors while in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program:
•   Between WDFW employees and Hunter Education Instructors
•   From one Hunter Education Instructor to another Hunter Education Instructor
•   Between Hunter Education Instructors and NGOs
•   Between Hunter Education Instructors and students

Additionally, student-to-student transfers may also be exempt under the circumstances and for the reasons described above.   Where such transfers are not exempt, we believe that minimal changes to classroom procedures will avoid conflicts with I-594.   
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: actionshooter on December 02, 2014, 06:35:40 PM
That's good to get that cleared up, thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 02, 2014, 06:44:19 PM
Wow! LE authority.  Really?  Nice, but, did you have this LE authority before? 

Quote
This exemption extends to Hunter Education Instructors whether or not they are actually in the classroom, provided that they are in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program.  (Firearms transfers by Hunter Education Instructors that are not for the purpose of the Hunter Education Program and within the scope of their authority as WDFW volunteers, are not entitled to this exemption.)

Although it does and does not surprise me that they suggest a student to instructor, instructor to student, series of transfers, to get around the problem of student to student transfers, where I-594 does not provide another exemption.  But it seems to defeat the purpose of I-594 and the limited set of exemptions.


Another thing to note is that, where a broader exemption exists (here, the limited WDFW LE exemption) the AG construes I-594 stricter exemptions to not be applicable or limiting, insofar as you stay within the broader exemption.  It kind of puts the onus on instructors as to determining what are the limits of your limited WDFW LE authority though. 


Are you getting similar guidance on how to teach the restrictions on temporary transfers as it pertains to "while hunting" and "direct supervision" exemptions in I-594, or is that sort of information beyond the scope of your instructor curriculum?
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: ghosthunter on December 02, 2014, 07:04:45 PM
Wow! LE authority.  Really?  Nice, but, did you have this LE authority before? 

Quote
This exemption extends to Hunter Education Instructors whether or not they are actually in the classroom, provided that they are in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program.  (Firearms transfers by Hunter Education Instructors that are not for the purpose of the Hunter Education Program and within the scope of their authority as WDFW volunteers, are not entitled to this exemption.)

Although it does and does not surprise me that they suggest a student to instructor, instructor to student, series of transfers, to get around the problem of student to student transfers, where I-594 does not provide another exemption.  But it seems to defeat the purpose of I-594 and the limited set of exemptions.


Another thing to note is that, where a broader exemption exists (here, the limited WDFW LE exemption) the AG construes I-594 stricter exemptions to not be applicable or limiting, insofar as you stay within the broader exemption.  It kind of puts the onus on instructors as to determining what are the limits of your limited WDFW LE authority though. 


Are you getting similar guidance on how to teach the restrictions on temporary transfers as it pertains to "while hunting" and "direct supervision" exemptions in I-594, or is that sort of information beyond the scope of your instructor curriculum?

I suspect we will get some kind of hand out as to transfers during hunting.
They are not due to re write the hand book for a couple years or more. So any change will have to be in the form of a handout.

I can live with this with in Hunter Education as long as I can continue to use working firearms. I will not ever use the fake firearms. :twocents:
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Rainier10 on December 02, 2014, 07:22:27 PM
Great information, thanks for posting. This upcoming year will be a learning process for all.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 02, 2014, 07:28:48 PM
But it seems to defeat the purpose of I-594 and the limited set of exemptions.
Gee that's too bad. :)
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 02, 2014, 07:40:31 PM
But it seems to defeat the purpose of I-594 and the limited set of exemptions.
Gee that's too bad. :)

Agreed. It is a double edge sword is all.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Hi-Liter on December 02, 2014, 09:24:16 PM
But it seems to defeat the purpose of I-594 and the limited set of exemptions.
Gee that's too bad. :)

Agreed. It is a double edge sword is all.
What do expect the ag is a democrat. 594 is just the tip of piercing 2A. This law is so stupid it took the ag office to interpret it and many lawyers either wrote it, critique it or had a hand in it. I really hope it's challenged in court
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 03, 2014, 09:31:03 AM
did you have this LE authority before? 


Anyone have any information on this?
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2014, 09:34:19 AM
did you have this LE authority before? 


Anyone have any information on this?
Certainly their Enforcement division does.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 03, 2014, 09:35:52 AM
did you have this LE authority before? 


Anyone have any information on this?
Certainly their Enforcement division does.

I was hoping to hear from instructors whether this grant of limited LE authority is new.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2014, 09:39:25 AM
did you have this LE authority before? 


Anyone have any information on this?
Certainly their Enforcement division does.

I was hoping to hear from instructors whether this grant of limited LE authority is new.
If you are asking if volunteer hunter education instructors have LE authority, the answer is no. I can tell a student to leave but i can't arrest him.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 03, 2014, 09:41:06 AM
Did you receive that by mail, Bob? It's not on the instructor's website.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Oldguy on December 03, 2014, 09:49:11 AM
It was e-mailed to all instructors yesterday afternoon. Supposed to be on instructors website today.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 03, 2014, 09:53:23 AM
If you are asking if volunteer hunter education instructors have LE authority, the answer is no. I can tell a student to leave but i can't arrest him.

That is not what I am asking.  Let me put it another way.

Quote
The Hunter Education Program is a WDFW program authorized by state law pursuant to RCW 77.32.155(1)(a).  Hunter Education Instructors, when in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program, act on behalf of WDFW, and are therefore exempt from the background check/transfer requirements.  This exemption extends to Hunter Education Instructors whether or not they are actually in the classroom, provided that they are in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program. (Firearms transfers by Hunter Education Instructors that are not for the purpose of the Hunter Education Program and within the scope of their authority as WDFW volunteers, are not entitled to this exemption.)


The part in bold.  Have you been told in the past, for any other reason, that you enjoy limited LE exemption/authority as a volunteer for "WDFW and acting within the scope of their [WDFW's] authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program."?


I feel it is necessary to state that I am not interested in taking any of that away (new or historical), nor am I assuming that you have full, unlimited WDFW LE authority for whatever purpose regardless of its connection to the Hunter Education Program.

I am just trying to understand the length that the state is willing to bend to accommodate something that we all agree is bad law. 

If it is a new policy (acknowledgement/grant of limited LE authority/exemption to law) or a paradigm shift, it certainly weighs in the argument over whether 2/3 of the legislature should act within the two year restriction on amending repealing initiatives.  That is what I am trying to discover.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: woodswalker on December 03, 2014, 10:03:31 AM
The limited LE is much like the secretary in the PD is in LE....its mostly a legal definition...we are part of the Enforcement division...therefore.  I dont like it and the roundabouts we will have to do.

Waiting for this insidious law to be overturned.

Pianoman, It will be posted today.

Ghosthunter, we use both the inert guns AND live firearms...  Live is on the range, field course and handling are the inert ones.

yes I'm an instructor...since 1996.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 03, 2014, 10:20:47 AM
The limited LE is much like the secretary in the PD is in LE....its mostly a legal definition...we are part of the Enforcement division...therefore.  I dont like it and the roundabouts we will have to do.

Waiting for this insidious law to be overturned.

Pianoman, It will be posted today.

Ghosthunter, we use both the inert guns AND live firearms...  Live is on the range, field course and handling are the inert ones.

yes I'm an instructor...since 1996.

Thanks, and thanks (also to Bob33 and others) for volunteering for such an important part continuing our heritage. 


That said, I understand how limited grants of authority and the I-594 exemption operates. 

What I don't understand is whether this is new policy solely necessitated by the overbroad, ill-conceived, and problematic wording of I-594 concerning "transfers." 

Has it ever been stated before that HEP Instructors enjoy limited LE exemption/authority FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE as a volunteer for "WDFW and acting within the scope of their [WDFW's] authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program."?
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2014, 10:34:18 AM
Did you receive that by mail, Bob? It's not on the instructor's website.
Yes, I did. If you didn't get it, they may not have a valid email address for you. It is on the Instructor website now.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2014, 10:37:29 AM
The limited LE is much like the secretary in the PD is in LE....its mostly a legal definition...we are part of the Enforcement division...therefore.  I dont like it and the roundabouts we will have to do.

Waiting for this insidious law to be overturned.

Pianoman, It will be posted today.

Ghosthunter, we use both the inert guns AND live firearms...  Live is on the range, field course and handling are the inert ones.

yes I'm an instructor...since 1996.

Thanks, and thanks (also to Bob33 and others) for volunteering for such an important part continuing our heritage. 


That said, I understand how limited grants of authority and the I-594 exemption operates. 

What I don't understand is whether this is new policy solely necessitated by the overbroad, ill-conceived, and problematic wording of I-594 concerning "transfers." 

Has it ever been stated before that HEP Instructors enjoy limited LE exemption/authority FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE as a volunteer for "WDFW and acting within the scope of their [WDFW's] authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program."?
This probably doesn't answer the question but it may help.

 My sense is that the attorneys used this approach to avoid 594 complications, and this issue has never been explored fully.

Instructors Are Volunteer WDFW Employees
Policy: A WDFW certified Hunter Education Instructor is a volunteer employee of the Hunter Education Division of the WDFW Enforcement Program.
A volunteer employee acts as an official representative of WDFW and the State of Washington and is required and trusted to work within the law. Instructors are expected to maintain the dignity and integrity of WDFW with the public during Hunter Education classes.

A volunteer is a person or group of persons, other than an emergency services worker as described in chapter 38.52 RCW, who, of his or her own free choice, performs any authorized duties for WDFW. A volunteer receives no wages, is registered with WDFW Volunteer Services and is authorized as a volunteer by WDFW for the purpose of engaging in volunteer service. A volunteer may be granted reimbursement for actual expenses necessarily incurred in performing his or her authorized duties. Members of advisory boards or groups established by WDFW are considered volunteers if they are not paid wages by the advisory board or group for their participation. See WDFW Policy 4018-Utilizing Volunteers in the appendix.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 03, 2014, 10:41:45 AM
Thanks, Bob33.  I think that answers my question.  It is not so much a paradigm shift as a necessary slight nudge in direction, using the most convenient tools available. Although it still does somewhat render the specific I-594 exemptions superfluous. 

Good for your guys!
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Hi-Liter on December 03, 2014, 11:11:12 AM
This law is so vague I can't believe that it will become law.

A transfer of a firearm between an adult student and the instructor violates WA law tomorrow. How are students suppose to handle a firearm properly for training purpose, an air/pellet gun-Really. Its almost a joke because the law is so construed that one class of people are exempt but another class isn't.

 




Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2014, 11:26:31 AM
A transfer of a firearm between an adult student and the instructor violates WA law tomorrow. How are students suppose to handle a firearm properly for training purpose, an air/pellet gun-Really.
Did you not read the memo, or do you not agree with their attorneys?

" Transfers of firearms between Hunter Education Instructors and Hunter Education students are also exempt from the background check/transfer requirements of I-594, when the Hunter Education Instructors are in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: bobcat on December 03, 2014, 11:29:47 AM
The only "transfer" that would be illegal would be between an adult student and another student.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 03, 2014, 11:38:10 AM
The only "transfer" that would be illegal would be between an adult student and another student.

So, then passing a firearm between adults to cross an obstacle would be a violation.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: woodswalker on December 03, 2014, 11:44:44 AM
The limited LE is much like the secretary in the PD is in LE....its mostly a legal definition...we are part of the Enforcement division...therefore.  I dont like it and the roundabouts we will have to do.

Waiting for this insidious law to be overturned.

Pianoman, It will be posted today.

Ghosthunter, we use both the inert guns AND live firearms...  Live is on the range, field course and handling are the inert ones.

yes I'm an instructor...since 1996.

Thanks, and thanks (also to Bob33 and others) for volunteering for such an important part continuing our heritage. 


That said, I understand how limited grants of authority and the I-594 exemption operates. 

What I don't understand is whether this is new policy solely necessitated by the overbroad, ill-conceived, and problematic wording of I-594 concerning "transfers." 

Has it ever been stated before that HEP Instructors enjoy limited LE exemption/authority FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE as a volunteer for "WDFW and acting within the scope of their [WDFW's] authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program."?
This probably doesn't answer the question but it may help.

 My sense is that the attorneys used this approach to avoid 594 complications, and this issue has never been explored fully.

Instructors Are Volunteer WDFW Employees
Policy: A WDFW certified Hunter Education Instructor is a volunteer employee of the Hunter Education Division of the WDFW Enforcement Program.
A volunteer employee acts as an official representative of WDFW and the State of Washington and is required and trusted to work within the law. Instructors are expected to maintain the dignity and integrity of WDFW with the public during Hunter Education classes.

A volunteer is a person or group of persons, other than an emergency services worker as described in chapter 38.52 RCW, who, of his or her own free choice, performs any authorized duties for WDFW. A volunteer receives no wages, is registered with WDFW Volunteer Services and is authorized as a volunteer by WDFW for the purpose of engaging in volunteer service. A volunteer may be granted reimbursement for actual expenses necessarily incurred in performing his or her authorized duties. Members of advisory boards or groups established by WDFW are considered volunteers if they are not paid wages by the advisory board or group for their participation. See WDFW Policy 4018-Utilizing Volunteers in the appendix.

We Volunteer Employees are also afforded the same basic legal protections as paid employees are, as long as we are discharging our duties as an official representative of WDFW.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2014, 11:51:32 AM
The only "transfer" that would be illegal would be between an adult student and another student.

So, then passing a firearm between adults to cross an obstacle would be a violation.
Technically, yes.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: bobcat on December 03, 2014, 11:54:17 AM

The only "transfer" that would be illegal would be between an adult student and another student.

So, then passing a firearm between adults to cross an obstacle would be a violation.

Maybe so, except "while hunting." That's another exemption. But I suppose if you were just going for a walk in the woods, then a transfer of a firearm in that situation might be illegal.

Don't you feel so much safer now that some of these things are outlawed?
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2014, 12:00:16 PM

The only "transfer" that would be illegal would be between an adult student and another student.

So, then passing a firearm between adults to cross an obstacle would be a violation.

Maybe so, except "while hunting." That's another exemption. But I suppose if you were just going for a walk in the woods, then a transfer of a firearm in that situation might be illegal.

Don't you feel so much safer now that some of these things are outlawed?
He is referring to being in a hunter education course. Students often go through simulated hunt obstacles in pairs, with the idea that one should hand his firearm to the other before crossing a fence, etc.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 03, 2014, 12:42:17 PM
Didn't care? Of course they cared. The goal of the people who pushed this bill is to eventually end private gun ownership in this country. They've completed their first step in WA state. They were purposely vague so as to snare as many people and disqualify them from gun use as possible. This has nothing to do with keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Never did. It's like the wolf introduction. It was never about wolves. It's always been about ending hunting.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: ghosthunter on December 03, 2014, 01:17:12 PM
The only "transfer" that would be illegal would be between an adult student and another student.

So, then passing a firearm between adults to cross an obstacle would be a violation.
Technically, yes.

And that is the sticking point for me.

I already responded to Whipple that as long as it did not interfere with gun handling for all students I would schedule classes.

But if they cannot find a way that every student during fence crossings can hand a firearm to another regardless of age then that might be it for me. It is a friggin bunch of crap that students with unloaded firearms, in a hunter ed class could not be passing guns back and forth because of age.  :puke: :tdown: :pee:

At some point enough is enough for volunteers to tip toe around.

If that happens I will cancel classes and put on my phone machine that I  no longer doing classes because of 594 restrictions call your law makers.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Hi-Liter on December 03, 2014, 01:31:06 PM
The only "transfer" that would be illegal would be between an adult student and another student.

So, then passing a firearm between adults to cross an obstacle would be a violation.
Technically, yes.

And that is the sticking point for me.

I already responded to Whipple that as long as it did not interfere with gun handling for all students I would schedule classes.

But if they cannot find a way that every student during fence crossings can hand a firearm to another regardless of age then that might be it for me. It is a friggin bunch of crap that students with unloaded firearms, in a hunter ed class could not be passing guns back and forth because of age.  :puke: :tdown: :pee:

At some point enough is enough for volunteers to tip toe around.

If that happens I will cancel classes and put on my phone machine that I  no longer doing classes because of 594 restrictions call your law makers.

T
A transfer of a firearm between an adult student and the instructor violates WA law tomorrow. How are students suppose to handle a firearm properly for training purpose, an air/pellet gun-Really.
Did you not read the memo, or do you not agree with their attorneys?

" Transfers of firearms between Hunter Education Instructors and Hunter Education students are also exempt from the background check/transfer requirements of I-594, when the Hunter Education Instructors are in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program.

Yeah I read it. I saw what you pointed out.

I guess adults will have to hand off the guns during the HE course to "ghosts"  :dunno:
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2014, 01:45:47 PM
I don't like the new law at all. However, I think the odds of a student in an authorized hunter education course be cited for an illegal "transfer" by handing a firearm to another student in the same course, both under the direction of a WDFW authorized instructor is almost nil.

Even if instructors are comfortable with this, I wonder how many students/parents will not be?
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 03, 2014, 01:51:05 PM
I don't like the new law at all. However, I think the odds of a student in an authorized hunter education course be cited for an illegal "transfer" by handing a firearm to another student in the same course, both under the direction of a WDFW authorized instructor is almost nil.

Even if instructors are comfortable with this, I wonder how many students/parents will not be?

I won't be at all comfortable with this.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2014, 01:52:53 PM
I don't like the new law at all. However, I think the odds of a student in an authorized hunter education course be cited for an illegal "transfer" by handing a firearm to another student in the same course, both under the direction of a WDFW authorized instructor is almost nil.

Even if instructors are comfortable with this, I wonder how many students/parents will not be?

I won't be at all comfortable with this.
I understand, although you wouldn't be treaking the law - the student(s) would.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Hi-Liter on December 03, 2014, 03:40:12 PM
I don't like the new law at all. However, I think the odds of a student in an authorized hunter education course be cited for an illegal "transfer" by handing a firearm to another student in the same course, both under the direction of a WDFW authorized instructor is almost nil.

Even if instructors are comfortable with this, I wonder how many students/parents will not be?

I won't be at all comfortable with this.
I understand, although you wouldn't be treaking the law - the student(s) would.

That is what you call a yo-yo law. Laws are all for one and one for all. As stated before this will be challenged.

Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Song Dog on December 03, 2014, 05:56:29 PM
Been teaching Hunters Ed for over twenty years, just resigned today.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 03, 2014, 06:00:45 PM
Been teaching Hunters Ed for over twenty years, just resigned today.

Thanks for your service.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: ghosthunter on December 03, 2014, 06:10:40 PM
I don't like the new law at all. However, I think the odds of a student in an authorized hunter education course be cited for an illegal "transfer" by handing a firearm to another student in the same course, both under the direction of a WDFW authorized instructor is almost nil.

Even if instructors are comfortable with this, I wonder how many students/parents will not be?

Hunter Ed staff will not allow that. It is either legal or not. Once they decide on a policy that it is not legal ,you as a instructor are required to make sure the policy is adhered to in your classes. Or risk de-certification.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: ghosthunter on December 03, 2014, 06:13:43 PM
There is already a policy manual a 1/2 inch thick. How much more can be piled on?
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 03, 2014, 06:17:32 PM
I don't like the new law at all. However, I think the odds of a student in an authorized hunter education course be cited for an illegal "transfer" by handing a firearm to another student in the same course, both under the direction of a WDFW authorized instructor is almost nil.

Even if instructors are comfortable with this, I wonder how many students/parents will not be?

Hunter Ed staff will not allow that. It is either legal or not. Once they decide on a policy that it is not legal ,you as a instructor are required to make sure the policy is adhered to in your classes. Or risk de-certification.
If the transfers are done at an established shooting range, or between students under age 18 it is legal. If neither of these conditions is met, it would be best to not allow firearm transfers between students.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Elk329 on December 03, 2014, 06:27:12 PM
There is already a policy manual a 1/2 inch thick. How much more can be piled on?
This is included at the last of the E-mail.
Hopefully they don't add another 1/4 of an inch.

We will be releasing more detailed information soon, and will do our best to address all the situations that you as instructors will encounter.  Please continue to check the Hunter Education Instructor website for updates. If you need the login ID or password, please call Jan at or email her
We will also be slightly modifying the Hunter Education Instructor Policy Manual to provide additional clarity around the transfer of firearms for hunter education purposes. More information will be provided in the near future.
Again, thank you for all that you do.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: huntrights on December 03, 2014, 10:38:25 PM

I-594 created a bad law that will continue to result in unintended consequences until it can be amended or repealed, or perhaps they were intended consequences.  It's a shame that we have to wait two years for a simple majority to fix this mess legislatively; a 2/3 super majority would be difficult to obtain prior to the two-year limit.  Hopefully some judicial/legal remedies can be imposed to fix some of the major issues with I-594 in the near future.

This is what happens when those who vote get their heads filled with propaganda funded by a few anti-gun billionaires.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Dave Workman on December 04, 2014, 07:08:59 AM
But it seems to defeat the purpose of I-594 and the limited set of exemptions.


Uhh, pay attention to that letter and read "the small print" about firearm exchanges and students over 18 years of age....
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Dave Workman on December 04, 2014, 07:11:11 AM
Been teaching Hunters Ed for over twenty years, just resigned today.

Contact me off list, ASAP please

Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 04, 2014, 07:28:29 AM
But it seems to defeat the purpose of I-594 and the limited set of exemptions.


Uhh, pay attention to that letter and read "the small print" about firearm exchanges and students over 18 years of age....

Yeah, I saw that.  The point is that I-594 authors provided an unworkable exemption for HEP, and the WDFW (an agency with LE authhority) chose to use the more generous LE exemption, in effect, advocating the the HEP conduct "straw transfers" to facilitate hunter education, the raison d'etre of I-594.

I find that ironic.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 04, 2014, 07:34:26 AM
But it seems to defeat the purpose of I-594 and the limited set of exemptions.


Uhh, pay attention to that letter and read "the small print" about firearm exchanges and students over 18 years of age....

Yeah, I saw that.  The point is that I-594 authors provided an unworkable exemption for HEP, and the WDFW (an agency with LE authhority) chose to use the more generous LE exemption, in effect, advocating the the HEP conduct "straw transfers" to facilitate hunter education, the raison d'etre of I-594.

I find that ironic.

Inert guns for adults. I predict that it will be 100% inert guns when we have the spring in-service. There will be no more live fire. Hunting and firearm accidents will increase. For the imperceptible change this law will make in gun crime, a very perceptible change will occur in the safety record of hunters. And, the people who really pushed this bill will be glad to see it happen because then they'll be able to claim hunting is unsafe, too.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 04, 2014, 07:44:24 AM
I don't see live fire going away in most cases. If it is done at an "established shooting range" it is exempt. We plan to continue with live fire.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 04, 2014, 07:46:18 AM
I don't see live fire going away in most cases. If it is done at an "established shooting range" it is exempt. We plan to continue with live fire.

We don't have a shooting range available for the classes I participate in. We go to WDFW hunting land in Vancouver. Because that's not an established range, we're out of luck.

I wrote to the commission about this about a month prior and asked them to make an impact statement. I also copied the director and emailed to the "wildthing" address, as well. They should've made themselves heard on the impacts this would have on Hunter Education and they stayed silent. It wouldn't have been a statement in support or opposition. It could've been just a statement about impact. They could've done the same with hounds and baiting. But they didn't. Instead of figuring out a way to show how these things would impact hunter education, wildlife management, etc., they took the easy route. I'm thoroughly disgusted with the commission and the administration for their lack of intestinal fortitude and their complete inability to do what is right for the hunters of this state.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 04, 2014, 07:52:08 AM
I don't see live fire going away in most cases. If it is done at an "established shooting range" it is exempt. We plan to continue with live fire.

We don't have a shooting range available for the classes I participate in. We go to WDFW hunting land in Vancouver.
Yes, that appears to be a problem that 594 has created.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: csaaphill on December 04, 2014, 08:58:43 AM
Been teaching Hunters Ed for over twenty years, just resigned today.
good hope more follow.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Dave Workman on December 04, 2014, 09:07:17 AM
Friendly request:  If everyone who reads and comments here could cut-and-paste their remarks over to Examiner, it would help readers across the country understand fully what we're up against.

I-594: They passed it, now we get to see what’s in it

 :bash:  :bash:  :bash:

As provisions of Initiative 594 kick in today, the first signs of what this legislation means are beginning to show up exactly where the anti-gun proponents insisted they would not: Hunter Education and promoting firearms safety, according to a discussion unfolding right now on the Hunting-Washington forum that begins with a Tuesday memo from the Department of Fish and Wildlife.

http://www.examiner.com/article/i-594-they-passed-it-now-we-get-to-see-what-s-it (http://www.examiner.com/article/i-594-they-passed-it-now-we-get-to-see-what-s-it)



maybe that professor Gruber could explain how this happened, eh? He did so well with Obamacare...
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: timberfaller on December 04, 2014, 10:47:45 AM
Reading with interest :yike: one issue hasn't been touched,  in my classes lately its getting 50/50 over 18, Soooo on range day, real guns used, over 18 is considered adults,  Sooooo can't transfer :bdid:  Right????

After 25 years, I don't have much faith in the Commission or Directors "helping" much correcting this!!! :bash:
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 04, 2014, 10:52:15 AM
Reading with interest :yike: one issue hasn't been touched,  in my classes lately its getting 50/50 over 18, Soooo on range day, real guns used, over 18 is considered adults,  Sooooo can't transfer :bdid:  Right????

After 25 years, I don't have much faith in the Commission or Directors "helping" much correcting this!!! :bash:
It has been addressed. You can transfer real firearms if your live fire is conducted at an established shooting range.

Even if they wanted to, the Commission can't change an initiative.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: timberfaller on December 04, 2014, 11:08:12 AM
"You can transfer real firearms if your live fire is conducted at an established shooting range."

 :dunno: Last paragraph on page 2, of the letter from Dave W. leaves a LOT of wiggle room.  From the way its is worded, "Adults" are still in limbo over I-594's wording.   And WDFW have not gotten confirmation yet, if we can pass off a real firearm to them.  :dunno:

Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 04, 2014, 11:16:57 AM
"You can transfer real firearms if your live fire is conducted at an established shooting range."

 :dunno: Last paragraph on page 2, of the letter from Dave W. leaves a LOT of wiggle room.  From the way its is worded, "Adults" are still in limbo over I-594's wording.   And WDFW have not gotten confirmation yet, if we can pass off a real firearm to them.  :dunno:
I go by I-594, not what someone else states.

(4) This section does not apply to:
(f) The temporary transfer of a firearm (ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located.

The WDFW memo also addresses this:

"I-594 contains limited specific exemptions for certain temporary transfers of firearms kept at shooting ranges and temporary transfers of firearms to persons under the eighteen for educational purposes. Although Hunter Education instruction is an educational purpose and may occur at a shooting range, these two exemptions do not limit or override the broader background check exemption applicable to law enforcement agencies. Therefore, within
the constraints described above, transfers of firearms between volunteer Hunter Education Instructors and students are exempt by virtue of WDFW being a law enforcement agency, regardless of the age of the student, and regardless of whether the firearm is removed from a shooting range."
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: timberfaller on December 04, 2014, 11:27:27 AM
Ok Bob,

But then in Dave's letter to "instructors" he writes this:

"I am very pleased with the outcome of the analysis, which is attached. I hope this will provide you with certainty to move forward with classes.  Having said that, please read carefully the paragraph addressing student-to-student firearm transfers; that is the only area with any remaining uncertainty at this time. We will address that very soon."

"Soon" hasn't happened yet.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: KFhunter on December 04, 2014, 11:32:31 AM
Been teaching Hunters Ed for over twenty years, just resigned today.
good hope more follow.

hope not, hard enough to get kids their cards.

 
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 04, 2014, 11:34:13 AM
Ok Bob,

But then in Dave's letter to "instructors" he writes this:

"I am very pleased with the outcome of the analysis, which is attached. I hope this will provide you with certainty to move forward with classes.  Having said that, please read carefully the paragraph addressing student-to-student firearm transfers; that is the only area with any remaining uncertainty at this time. We will address that very soon."

"Soon" hasn't happened yet.
There is some uncertainly about adult student-to-student transfers, but not when the transfers occur at an established shooting range. Your comment was about range day. If it occurs at an established shooting range, there is no uncertainty.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: timberfaller on December 04, 2014, 01:09:40 PM
I'll go back to the "memo"

"...exempt, if the transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at the range."

We use "ranges", they don't store the firearms, so the transfer by the writing up of I-594, we can not legally "transfer" to a adult student and said student can't transfer to 18 year or less student.

No uncertainty there.

What a mess!!!! 
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Oldguy on December 04, 2014, 02:13:18 PM
I'll bet the "Felons" are quacking in their boots today as the new law is in place. Now if we can get another initiative to control the transfer of knives and clubs our communities will really be safe.  :bash:    :bdid:
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 04, 2014, 02:15:48 PM
I'll bet the "Felons" are quacking in their boots today as the new law is in place. Now if we can get another initiative to control the transfer of knives and clubs our communities will really be safe.  :bash:    :bdid:
That will be a fun one to read through...background checks every time a little-leaguer goes up to bat.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Hi-Liter on December 04, 2014, 03:49:34 PM
Been teaching Hunters Ed for over twenty years, just resigned today.
good hope more follow.


You know I agree with you that you should quit teaching over 594. But, isn't this exactly what the anti-guns want from us? is to quit. Quit owning guns, quit teaching etc.  If we don't have good HE instructors like you then what do we do next? I think you should re-consider and keep moving forward. I am sure you are a great instructor for the last 20 years.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Windwalker on December 04, 2014, 04:55:43 PM
More muddy waters - some question the WDFW definitions
http://thecluemeter.blogspot.com/2014/12/washington-state-violates-letter-of.html (http://thecluemeter.blogspot.com/2014/12/washington-state-violates-letter-of.html)

A few comments bring up good points - http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Initiative-594-group-calls-for-new-gun-measures-284801571.html (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Initiative-594-group-calls-for-new-gun-measures-284801571.html)

Many questions, conflicts and rumors to dispel.
Bottom line is the Attorney General needs to issue an advisory opinion interpreting it.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Dave Workman on December 04, 2014, 05:41:15 PM
I reiterate:

Friendly request:  If everyone who reads and comments here could cut-and-paste their remarks over to Examiner, it would help readers across the country understand fully what we're up against.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: SWWSurplus on December 05, 2014, 09:38:30 AM
I have to say, don't necessarily believe guidance from Law Enforcement Officers as to what is and is not legal. We get cops in our shop all the time who don't know the law on concealed or open carry of firearms in Washington, and they present non-factual opinion as the law all the time to the public. We get lots of people who tell me their cop neighbor or brother in law told them X when I can read them the law that says Y. We get former or current law enforcement officers in who are surprised or in disagreement when I talk about the laws as I have personally read them.

Some cops back down when confronted with new information. Some, maybe most double down.

The courts and lawyers determine what is legal and interpret the finer point of the law.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 05, 2014, 09:44:29 AM
I have to say, don't necessarily believe guidance from Law Enforcement Officers as to what is and is not legal. We get cops in our shop all the time who don't know the law on concealed or open carry of firearms in Washington, and they present non-factual opinion as the law all the time to the public. We get lots of people who tell me their cop neighbor or brother in law told them X when I can read them the law that says Y. We get former or current law enforcement officers in who are surprised or in disagreement when I talk about the laws as I have personally read them.

Some cops back down when confronted with new information. Some, maybe most double down.

The courts and lawyers determine what is legal and interpret the finer point of the law.

Good point and welcome.  This is somewhat different, though, as an official statement from someone with authority to make it.   That said, there are still many pitfalls, and nobody ever got rich betting that a public official would stick his/her neck out for some regular schmo.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2014, 09:51:29 AM
I have to say, don't necessarily believe guidance from Law Enforcement Officers as to what is and is not legal. We get cops in our shop all the time who don't know the law on concealed or open carry of firearms in Washington, and they present non-factual opinion as the law all the time to the public. We get lots of people who tell me their cop neighbor or brother in law told them X when I can read them the law that says Y. We get former or current law enforcement officers in who are surprised or in disagreement when I talk about the laws as I have personally read them.

Some cops back down when confronted with new information. Some, maybe most double down.

The courts and lawyers determine what is legal and interpret the finer point of the law.

Welcome to the forum. Are you the new location over on 4th Plain? If so, I've been a customer of yours for years, both on Andresen and the new place.

And you're very correct; a lot of cops are lacking in their knowledge of the law. A good example would be one requiring you to surrender your firearm upon request for no reason other than his own mental discomfort.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 05, 2014, 01:20:35 PM
As a previously assumed fallout, I tried to buy 12ga arial boating flares today. Westmarine pulled them from shelves and would not sell me any. I tried Wholesale and same thing, I called Wally world and was told they have not been given guidance yet on how to sell them... :bash:............this should get interesting. Wonder if I can rent a concrete nail gun???Think i will call my local rental store.

I can see it now, Im sorry sir you are a convicted felon, have a DV conviction and are on a Mental health watch list, I cannoy rent you a nail gun and most certaintly will not sell you flares..
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: woodswalker on December 05, 2014, 01:44:46 PM
yeah i was waiting for that...wonder what the CG is going to do about boaters who cannot BUY the required equipment...likely ticket them.  so doubled down with stupid.  I'm waiting for the lawsuits to fly.

In addition, I think that the first person verifiably harmed needs to file a civil rights suit against the supporters and financiers of the initiative...a suit for whole number mulitples of the net worth of all signers/contributors whose contribution exceeds say $100...

After all, that works for the DOJ right?
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 05, 2014, 01:57:28 PM
The actual flares or the kit with a gun and flares?  When I looked through 594 I only saw firearms, not ammo.  There are already laws for selling ammo to a prohibited person.  Odd that as it is now, ammo sold to a prohibited person would net the seller a felony, but selling the actual firearm gets a gross misdemeanor (first offense).
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Dave Workman on December 06, 2014, 05:39:40 AM
As a previously assumed fallout, I tried to buy 12ga arial boating flares today. Westmarine pulled them from shelves and would not sell me any. I tried Wholesale and same thing, I called Wally world and was told they have not been given guidance yet on how to sell them... :bash:............this should get interesting. Wonder if I can rent a concrete nail gun???Think i will call my local rental store.

I can see it now, Im sorry sir you are a convicted felon, have a DV conviction and are on a Mental health watch list, I cannoy rent you a nail gun and most certaintly will not sell you flares..

Okay, what on earth does this have to do with the OP? We're talking about HUNTER EDUCATION here and the problems related to that because of I-594...not the other problems that apparently are linked to this asinine piece of legislation.

Let's not hijack or derail a thread. The specific problems relating to HUNTER ED need to be fleshed out without any detours.


Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Dave Workman on December 06, 2014, 05:43:55 AM
I have to say, don't necessarily believe guidance from Law Enforcement Officers as to what is and is not legal. We get cops in our shop all the time who don't know the law on concealed or open carry of firearms in Washington, and they present non-factual opinion as the law all the time to the public. We get lots of people who tell me their cop neighbor or brother in law told them X when I can read them the law that says Y. We get former or current law enforcement officers in who are surprised or in disagreement when I talk about the laws as I have personally read them.

Some cops back down when confronted with new information. Some, maybe most double down.

The courts and lawyers determine what is legal and interpret the finer point of the law.

AMEN. Most of you know I write a book on Washington gun laws, and I've had some, er, interesting conversations with people in law enforcement about gun laws, not only in WA but elsewhere.  I've chatted with high-rankers who had never heard of the FOPA. Others who insisted you need a CPL in this state to openly carry a handgun. 

Now, adding to the confusion:

More I-594 fallout as DOL, Revenue issue advisories

Yesterday’s advisory from the Washington Department of Licensing (DOL), following Thursday’s “Special Notice” from the Department of Revenue on “Tax Implications of Firearms transfers” have raised more questions about what voters handed to gun owners with passage of Initiative 594.

http://www.examiner.com/article/more-i-594-fallout-as-dol-revenue-issue-advisories (http://www.examiner.com/article/more-i-594-fallout-as-dol-revenue-issue-advisories)



Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 06, 2014, 08:58:10 AM
Wind walker raises a good point above whether WDFW is extending the LE exemption beyond statutory authority granted in I594 and existing RCWs.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Dave Workman on December 08, 2014, 09:01:56 AM
Wind walker raises a good point above whether WDFW is extending the LE exemption beyond statutory authority granted in I594 and existing RCWs.

Perhaps the e-mail from David Whipple, quoted herein, will provide an answer.  Then again.... :dunno:


Gun control drumbeat starts in Arizona as Washington enters new phase
 
Saturday saw the first steps toward Michael Bloomberg-style gun control in Arizona with the Brady Campaign joining “community leaders and activists” to protest a so-called “bad apple gun dealer,” while the Washington Arms Collectors (WAC) launched its $10 background check program in Monroe, which continues this coming weekend in Puyallup.
 
http://www.examiner.com/article/gun-control-drumbeat-starts-arizona-as-washington-enters-new-phase (http://www.examiner.com/article/gun-control-drumbeat-starts-arizona-as-washington-enters-new-phase)
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: luvmystang67 on December 08, 2014, 10:08:04 AM
When can we launch a new initiative that allows transfer of weapons without background checks for CPL holders? Could that be a new initiative or would that be seen as a modification to the existing initiative with the 2 year limit on it? 

How about also, when you go in to get a background check for a particular sale, you get a card valid for 2 months that allows you to transfer any guns to anyone else with a valid card?

We need to make some "common sense" changes to this ridiculous law.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 08, 2014, 10:16:46 AM
2 year limit applies to the legislature, not citizen initiatives, to my knowledge, and that 2 year limit only means that any legislative changes within 2 years would require 2/3 majority.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: luvmystang67 on December 08, 2014, 10:42:17 AM
We really need to get on our horse, add some BS that voters will like, and roll in no more background checks for CPL holders and run with it.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 08, 2014, 11:10:22 AM
We really need to get on our horse, add some BS that voters will like, and roll in no more background checks for CPL holders and run with it.

Gun control with no expiration date never lessens. Good luck with that. Our only hope is the state Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: huntinguy on December 08, 2014, 11:54:12 AM
The question that has not been addressed is for classes NOT held at a rifle range? Say you teach at an archery range, a sporting good store or a fire department. How do you have the students handle the firearms? The exemption is for "rifle ranges".
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 08, 2014, 12:03:33 PM
The question that has not been addressed is for classes NOT held at a rifle range? Say you teach at an archery range, a sporting good store or a fire department. How do you have the students handle the firearms? The exemption is for "rifle ranges".
You need to reread the memo from WDFW. Transfers between instructors and students are allowed at any location.

"In summary, the transfer/background check exemption I- 594 applies to the following transfers of firearms to or from WDFW Hunter Education Instructors while in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program:
•   Between WDFW employees and Hunter Education Instructors
•   From one Hunter Education Instructor to another Hunter Education Instructor
•   Between Hunter Education Instructors and NGOs
•   Between Hunter Education Instructors and students".
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: huntinguy on December 09, 2014, 06:12:01 AM
The question that has not been addressed is for classes NOT held at a rifle range? Say you teach at an archery range, a sporting good store or a fire department. How do you have the students handle the firearms? The exemption is for "rifle ranges".
You need to reread the memo from WDFW. Transfers between instructors and students are allowed at any location.

"In summary, the transfer/background check exemption I- 594 applies to the following transfers of firearms to or from WDFW Hunter Education Instructors while in formal volunteer status for WDFW and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program:
•   Between WDFW employees and Hunter Education Instructors
•   From one Hunter Education Instructor to another Hunter Education Instructor
•   Between Hunter Education Instructors and NGOs
•   Between Hunter Education Instructors and students".
I did: It also allows for transfer of firearms that are "stored" at the range under specific conditions. As I read it it also allows for transfer between minors while under direct supervision of a Hunters Ed instructor but does not address adults and firearms NOT stored at the range.

•   Although we are still evaluating I-594, it does not initially appear that student-to-student transfers of firearms would fall within the general WDFW exemption for law enforcement agencies. For students under eighteen, however, temporary firearms transfers for educational purposes are exempt if the student is under the direct supervision and control of a responsible adult (such as a Hunter Education Instructor) who may lawfully possess firearms.   Students eighteen and older are not entitled to this exemption. However, regardless of the age of the person, temporary transfers that occur at an established, authorized shooting range are also exempt, if the transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at the range.  If adult student-to-student transfers are not exempt, then adult students may, without triggering I-594’s background check/transfer requirements—

so, IF and instructor has a "real" firearm and teaches at say a fire station or NON gun range. As I  see it the question has not been answered.

hence: "Additionally, student-to-student transfers may also be exempt under the circumstances and for the reasons described above.   Where such transfers are not exempt, we believe that minimal changes to classroom procedures will avoid conflicts with I-594.   "
and I have not seen the policy on that.

Wenatchee should be interesting this year. (I guess I better make my reservations....)
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 09, 2014, 06:20:32 AM
The "kept at all times" refers to the time period of the transfer, not before or after.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: huntrights on December 09, 2014, 07:06:14 AM
 :twocents:
I-594 was severely flawed before it was passed by gullible voters that had their heads filled with emotionally-based propaganda.  At this time, we may need to jump through hoops to figure out what all of the consequences will be due to this badly written law that attacks law-abiding gun-owners.  However, a great deal of time, effort, and $$$ should also be spent figuring out how to get I-594 repealed or significantly amended to remove the most onerous and unneeded sections.  The legal folks really need to jump on this.  We should all be supporting and joining the organizations that are helping to fight this I-594 disaster.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 09, 2014, 09:14:46 AM
Quote
(f) The temporary transfer of a firearm (ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located;

"[K]ept at all times" would likely be read to mean that the firearm is located at a particular place, "at all times" relevant to the "temporary transfer."  To read "kept" to require that the firearm be "stored," or in another way that makes using the exemption nonsensical or impossible would not likely be preferred over one that makes sense and is possible.  That said, the AG/WDFW should opine on the issue to clarify matters, rather than leave it open to speculation.


The "kept at all times" refers to the time period of the transfer, not before or after.

That is how it makes most sense, during the time of the "temporary transfer."  That still does not help adult students at locations other than at an "established shooting range."

The guidance says that the transfer can occur between anyone to HE instructor (under the WDFW/LE exemption and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program), then from the HE instructor to a student. 

Quote
If adult student-to-student transfers are not exempt, then adult students may, without triggering I-594’s background check/transfer requirements—
. . .
-   Hand their functional firearms to an instructor who then hands it to the other student.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 09, 2014, 09:28:30 AM
Since I'm covered under 594 because of my LE status as a Hunter Ed instructor, does that also mean I can make arrests and give citations in places and situations where WDFW LE have jurisdiction? If so, I need a ticket book and a vest.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 09, 2014, 09:33:59 AM
Quote
(f) The temporary transfer of a firearm (ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located;

"[K]ept at all times" would likely be read to mean that the firearm is located at a particular place, "at all times" relevant to the "temporary transfer."  To read "kept" to require that the firearm be "stored," or in another way that makes using the exemption nonsensical or impossible would not likely be preferred over one that makes sense and is possible.  That said, the AG/WDFW should opine on the issue to clarify matters, rather than leave it open to speculation.


The "kept at all times" refers to the time period of the transfer, not before or after.

That is how it makes most sense, during the time of the "temporary transfer."  That still does not help adult students at locations other than at an "established shooting range."

The guidance says that the transfer can occur between anyone to HE instructor (under the WDFW/LE exemption and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program), then from the HE instructor to a student. 

Quote
If adult student-to-student transfers are not exempt, then adult students may, without triggering I-594’s background check/transfer requirements—
. . .
-   Hand their functional firearms to an instructor who then hands it to the other student.
I agree. If "kept at all times" means the gun could never be at a location other than the "established shooting range", no gun would qualify. They started at a  dealer. The gun could never be taken to a gunsmith for repair, etc. The meaning is to disallow a student from being handed a fiirearm at a shooting range in a class, then taking it home for the weekend, and returning it later.

WDFW's opinion is that any student, including adults can be handed a firearm at any location under the supervision of a certified hunter education instructor performing his duties as an instructor. Any student can hand a firearm to an instructor, at any location.  An adult student cannot transfer the firearm to another adult.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Stein on December 09, 2014, 09:37:12 AM
Quote
(f) The temporary transfer of a firearm (ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located;

"[K]ept at all times" would likely be read to mean that the firearm is located at a particular place, "at all times" relevant to the "temporary transfer."  To read "kept" to require that the firearm be "stored," or in another way that makes using the exemption nonsensical or impossible would not likely be preferred over one that makes sense and is possible.  That said, the AG/WDFW should opine on the issue to clarify matters, rather than leave it open to speculation.


The "kept at all times" refers to the time period of the transfer, not before or after.

That is how it makes most sense, during the time of the "temporary transfer."  That still does not help adult students at locations other than at an "established shooting range."

The guidance says that the transfer can occur between anyone to HE instructor (under the WDFW/LE exemption and acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program), then from the HE instructor to a student. 

Quote
If adult student-to-student transfers are not exempt, then adult students may, without triggering I-594’s background check/transfer requirements—
. . .
-   Hand their functional firearms to an instructor who then hands it to the other student.
I agree. If "kept at all times" means the gun could never be at a location other than the "established shooting range", no gun would qualify. They started at a  dealer. The gun could never be taken to a gunsmith for repair, etc. The meaning is to disallow a student from being handed a fiirearm at a shooting range in a class, then taking it home for the weekend, and returning it later.

WDFW's opinion is that any student, including adults can be handed a firearm at any location under the supervision of a certified hunter education instructor performing his duties as an instructor. Any student can hand a firearm to an instructor, at any location.  An adult student cannot transfer the firearm to another adult.

Thank goodness we have cleared up and criminalized this act.  We'll all sleep better now knowing that by further giving up rights we will now be safer as a society.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Fl0und3rz on December 09, 2014, 09:49:00 AM
Since I'm covered under 594 because of my LE status as a Hunter Ed instructor, does that also mean I can make arrests and give citations in places and situations where WDFW LE have jurisdiction? If so, I need a ticket book and a vest.

Asked and answered, at least on the first page.  Your exemptions "under the WDFW/LE exemption" depend on your "acting within the scope of their authority for purposes of the Hunter Education Program . . . ." 

So no exempt, late-night panty raids for you.  And for the love of Pete, please don't shoot anyone's dog.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 09, 2014, 09:58:13 AM
Damn, I already put the blue and red lights in the grill of the Jeep!
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 09, 2014, 10:00:28 AM
Damn, I already put the blue and red lights in the grill of the Jeep!
:chuckle:
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: luvmystang67 on December 09, 2014, 10:08:25 AM
I would say that since its our lawful duty to report wildlife violations, we actually are ALL extensions of WDFW officers and therefore are ALL extensions of LEOs and are all exempt.

It makes about as much sense.

How can we allow laws that are crafted to fit anyone as it is convenient.  More laws only give more power for arresting officers and judges to "interpret" or decide if they like what we did or not.  This is such garbage.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 09, 2014, 10:12:33 AM
I still want to bust people, Stang.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: luvmystang67 on December 09, 2014, 10:43:19 AM
I still want to bust people, Stang.

You should, tell them your rationale, watch them sit baffled and mumbling.   :drool:
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 09, 2014, 10:49:12 AM
"Alright kids, I'm with WDFW LE. I see that you're all underage and in possession or marijuana and craft beers. I'm going to have to confiscate them. This time, I'll leave you with a warning."
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Bob33 on December 09, 2014, 10:52:50 AM
"Class, there's no need to worry. We're all authorized law enforcement agents."
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: huntinguy on December 09, 2014, 11:07:35 AM
The "kept at all times" refers to the time period of the transfer, not before or after.

Keep in mind, most of us people would not think of transfer as handing a firearm to your buddy when you are out shooting either. this is a case of legal wording and not common wording. I think we will find that "kept at all times" will be interpreted as it is done in some places in Europe, you can own a gun but it can NEVER leave the range. Keep in mind places like Bullseye were there are rental guns that never leave the range.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 09, 2014, 12:11:08 PM
The "kept at all times" refers to the time period of the transfer, not before or after.

Keep in mind, most of us people would not think of transfer as handing a firearm to your buddy when you are out shooting either. this is a case of legal wording and not common wording. I think we will find that "kept at all times" will be interpreted as it is done in some places in Europe, you can own a gun but it can NEVER leave the range. Keep in mind places like Bullseye were there are rental guns that never leave the range.

We do now. As a matter of fact, if you picture that transfer in your mind without doing a background check, you may be in violation.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Dave Workman on December 12, 2014, 07:24:25 AM
Because I've been writing about this for 20 months or so, I'm going to throw something out for your consideration.

Is it just possible a state agency is trying to downplay the REAL impacts of 594, simply to make the public believe there is really nothing to worry about?  :dunno:

Is it just possible a certain attorney general's office might not be eager to confirm the fears and concerns of I-594 opponents who believed that this measure WOULD impact hunting and hutner education?   :dunno:

Frogs get boiled because they don't notice the water getting gradually hotter. 

Have a nice day..... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: ghosthunter on December 19, 2014, 05:38:54 PM
In Washington this is a felony now. Stupid.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Man Tracker on December 19, 2014, 05:51:46 PM
Thanks Dave, careful with common sense.  Pianoman-you can have my old ticket book, I'm done w/it!
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: stuckalot on December 19, 2014, 09:38:05 PM
Because I've been writing about this for 20 months or so, I'm going to throw something out for your consideration.

Is it just possible a state agency is trying to downplay the REAL impacts of 594, simply to make the public believe there is really nothing to worry about?  :dunno:

Is it just possible a certain attorney general's office might not be eager to confirm the fears and concerns of I-594 opponents who believed that this measure WOULD impact hunting and hutner education?   :dunno:



Frogs get boiled because they don't notice the water getting gradually hotter. 

Have a nice day..... :rolleyes:

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: stuckalot on December 19, 2014, 10:07:14 PM
The "kept at all times" refers to the time period of the transfer, not before or after.

The initiative was 18 pages long, if that's what their intention was, that's how it would have been written...
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: stuckalot on December 19, 2014, 10:10:53 PM


In Washington this is a felony now. Stupid.

I like the sentiment but this would be exempt if they were legally hunting. If they were going for an armed hike it would be illegal.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: Elk329 on December 19, 2014, 10:58:01 PM


In Washington this is a felony now. Stupid.

I like the sentiment but this would be exempt if they were legally hunting. If they were going for an armed hike it would be illegal.

Or in a Hunter Education Class
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: stuckalot on December 21, 2014, 09:01:19 AM


In Washington this is a felony now. Stupid.

I like the sentiment but this would be exempt if they were legally hunting. If they were going for an armed hike it would be illegal.

Or in a Hunter Education Class
It would only be legal in a hunter Ed class if one of the participants were under 18 or an instructor.
Title: Re: Guidance for Hunter Education instructors regarding I-594
Post by: ghosthunter on December 22, 2014, 12:11:04 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IN9GiyRzKI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IN9GiyRzKI&feature=youtu.be)