Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Bow Hunting => Topic started by: RadSav on March 15, 2015, 08:22:02 PM


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Title: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 15, 2015, 08:22:02 PM
I have been getting an increasing amount of PMs and e-mails asking for help and advise.  Helping is why I felt I needed to become a member of this forum so I do welcome the questions and PMs.  However, I have a growing concern about the number of questions relating to "Buying Success".  While I am in the business of selling archery goods, I also believe I am in the business of helping improve ones enjoyment and success in the archery and bowhunting sport.  I know few bowhunters who attempt to "Buy" big increases to their success annually.  That is not only a sad statement, but one that is not too good for the long term business plan either as most of them give up the sport after they realize it doesn't work.

I thought I might take a little time here and there to put together some little things that will save the pocket book and improve your outlook on your current gear.  Many of these things are free or only minor expenses at the local bow shop.  And while these are cheap little things the results are often HUGE.  And if they result in improved enjoyment of the sport perhaps their worth could be priceless!

The little things will follow in separate posts.  Sorry to start that way but an angry squaw posted this before I was completed :chuckle:  I'll complete the first as soon as I can get it typed.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Becky on March 15, 2015, 08:34:23 PM
Tagging  :hello:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on March 15, 2015, 08:36:47 PM
 :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: j_h_nimrod on March 15, 2015, 08:41:28 PM
While I don't currently archery hunt there are definite comparisons to all hunting means. People are much more inclined to just ask a question for the golden answer then actually practice and work on actually improving skills. I have known more than a few people that would tell me that the gun was shooting OK but could not sight the gun in because they were not strapped to a lead sled!  Really?!?!  If you can't shoot worth a damn without a Lead Sled then you should practice more or hang up the hunting of game.

I am interested in starting the stick and string method so plan to keep my eyes on this thread.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Ddouble on March 15, 2015, 08:43:58 PM
Just got given a bow so I am intrigued.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: HillSlick on March 15, 2015, 08:50:58 PM
Subscribed!


-"Progress once meant hope for the future, now it will destroy it."
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 15, 2015, 09:08:45 PM
Most of the questions I receive are in regards to spending BIG money for a BETTER bow.  Problem is most can not tell me what they do not like about their current bow.  And if you don't know that then how can you determine with confidence the next bow will be any better?  Unless there is a large improvement in speed or a definite change in grip or brace height most people are spending money to end up in the same place.  To me that makes very little sense.

After 30+ years of working on other peoples bows I have noticed one little thing that almost every unsatisfied archer has in common - Their current bow is inconsistent and unforgiving!  This is especially true of Hybrid cam shooters.  Perhaps that is a marketing gimmick of Hoyts.  Think about it...if you have all the top target shooters winning tournaments with Hoyt yet your bow is not consistent or forgiving, maybe you need the new years Hoyt that's even better!!! :dunno: Well, before you go out and drop another house payment (or two) on a new Hoyt let's ask ourselves what those great target shooters are doing to find such great success.

It's easy to conclude that top target shooters and even hunters have a bow that fits them perfectly.  It's also clear to see that the top outdoor shooters have a bow/arrow combination that produces flawless arrow flight.  But you have a bow that fits and gives good arrow flight yet you shoot it good today and not so good tomorrow.  You start off your day hitting center and then later in the day your bow groups low or high.  You adjust your sights for the high POI and then tomorrow it is hitting low.  What are those premier guys doing that you simply can not?  The vast majority of the time it all boils down to "Creep Tuning"

Creep Tuning is a process of finding and tuning your cams to their "Sweet Spot".  That's a spot within the timing of the cam where you can get away with a little too much pressure on the stops or a little too much forward slide into the valley and still remain consistent in your POI.  Every cam system I have played with has one.  Some are wide spots and some (like the Cam 1/2) have narrow spots.  But every single bow I have had in the past 30 years has had a sweet spot!  And luckily it is rather easy to find if you have a bow press or a good quick service shop.

The key is to first get the arrow tune as close to perfect as you can achieve.  Then using a horizontal line you shoot your arrows with a base line group using perfect form and back tension.  You then shoot a group at the same horizontal line using a little too much back tension and another group sliding forward about 1/4" into the valley.  If the groups without the proper back tension rise or fall compared to the base line you are not tuned to the sweet part of the cam.

I am not going to give a step-by-step instruction on how to creep tune since the internet has about 100 different sites that explain it well with pictures and images to help.  A simple Bing or Google search for "Creep Tune"+"Hybrid" (or whatever your cam type is) should produce more than enough sources for you to complete the work easily.  Just remember the further back you can achieve a perfect base line the more accurate your tune will be.  For some that will be 10 or 20 yards and for others that will be 40 or 50 yards.  Be careful not to lie to yourself about your abilities.  A perfect base line at 20 is going to be much better than a false base line at 50.

The human body is an amazing machine adaptable to constant changes.  However, as we fatigue through a day of shooting, as we apply additional clothing for warmth, as we bend to shoot uphill/downhill or left/right the body's answers to adapt usually changes our draw and ability to repeat back tension in a 100% fashion.  So the creep tune gives us the largest amount of physical change before losing our POI.  Whether in the field or on the target line this can make the difference between happy and sad, content and discontent, success and failure.

It seems like such a little thing.  But it often results in one of my biggest rewards!

Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 16, 2015, 12:50:31 AM
Once we have found the Sweet Spot in our cam and have increased our bows forgiveness now is the time to really get aggressive with finding the "Sweet Spot" with our arrows.  I like to call this "Spine Tuning".  It is not an absolute necessity for a modern center shot compound bow to shoot with perfect spine, but it sure lends itself to more flexibility and forgiveness.  Many manly men who want to be known as the resident wiener measuring champions despise Spine Tuning.  Their personal happiness and social standing rests within the digital read out on a Chrony.  And for those guys who proclaim Speed Is Everything this little thing is not for them.  But to those who believe life is more than social endowment this may lead to further enjoyment of the sport through consistent repeatability.

The easiest way to "Spine Tune" is with a broadhead tipped arrow.  I will often times spine tune using a broadhead larger in cutting diameter than what I might shoot in the field.  If these broadheads have an equal weight to my chosen hunting head they will exaggerate the effect of an arrows spine while applying an equal amount of resistance and effect as those I will hunt with.  The more dynamic the effect the easier it is to fine tune the bow to work with a chosen arrow's spine.

A properly spined arrow, or more appropriately, a bow properly tuned to an arrows spine remains more forgiving to changes in point weight, point shape, weather changes, poor releases and breakdowns of shooting form in general.  A major reason I spine tune is that I test so many different broadheads throughout the year.  A proper spine assures my base line remains constant.  It often allows me to use the same arrow for testing 85 grain, 100 grain and 125 grain broadheads.  As a bowhunter it allows me to shoot arrows all day to stay in shape.  I can shoot steel blunts at stumps and dirt, Bludgeon blunts at grouse, Judo points at clumps of grass and any number of small game points at rabbits or other vermin without the need to change point of aim or adjust my sight block.  This really increases my enjoyment during those slow hunting days and greatly improves my odds when off season small game or stumps is my chosen quarry.  Target practice is one way to improve success, but off season and during season field practice will even further assure your success when that trophy presents itself!

Since we have creep tuned we already have a horizontal piece of tape on our target and a target point arrow tuned to hit it's center.  So let's use this as our base line once again.  All we want to do is get our arrows into the center of the horizontal stripe.  So grouping is done by moving along the stripe/tape left to right so we don't ruin arrows with well executed shots.  I use a three arrow row for this base line.  Next step is to shoot our broadhead tipped arrows at the same line once again being careful to group left to right along the horizontal line so we don't ruin arrows with well executed shots.  If our broadheads hit the same place on the stripe as the field points we move on.  If they do not we need to adjust our nock height or arrow rest height.  If we move the nock point or arrows rest in 1/32" increments the broadheads should move at an average rate of 3X that of our target points.  On a true center shot compound arrow spine may reflect in a horizontal or a vertical direction.  So with these bows we need to remain diligent in our ability to take notes and recognize changes.

If a 1/32" adjustment in our nock set or our arrow rest does not narrow the gap between the target points and the broadheads it is likely a spine issue and not a nock height/rest height issue.  So we will address that later.  If the 1/32" adjustment is successful in narrowing the gap we want to continue 1/32" at a time until the gap either stops improving or the two type points both hit in the middle of the horizontal line.  This is where micro adjustable arrow rests really pay off!!

Once we have established our best rest/nock height setting (even if our two arrow points are not yet together) we move on to shooting at a vertical stripe.  A carpenters level is a great way to make sure our line is true vertical! You can use a bright colored string and a plumb bob with good results too.  Here again we want to establish a base line with our target point arrows grouping along the stripe/tape.  Does not matter whether we group in a down to up or an up to down progression.  And once again we want to move our arrow rest 1/32" at a time in an attempt to bring the broadhead point arrows and the target point arrows together but stopping if the 1/32" movement in arrow rest adjustment produces zero change in the gap between the two or the two have successfully come together.

Now we should have our arrow rest and our nock height set to their optimal locations.  Now the magic trick happens!!!

Since our Creep Tuning has resulted in a perfect timing within the cams and limbs the odds are that any improper spine will be reflected in the vertical stripe rather than the horizontal stripe.  But do not be concerned if that is not what your notes and target is telling you.  Regardless as to what direction the spine favors to show itself there should be a clear picture toward which stripe (vertical or horizontal) has the largest remaining gap between broadheads and target points.  At this time we want to once again establish a well defined base line with the target points on which ever stripe proved to possess the largest gap.

I am going to assume for a moment (to save time and typing) that the percentages and laws of force have shown a larger gap between the broadheads and the target points on the vertical stripe.  Under this assumption we can conclude that broadhead tipped arrows hitting to the right of our base line are too weak in spine and broadhead tipped arrows hitting to the left of the base line are too stiff.

If an arrow is spined too weak we want to work in 1/4 turn increments to weaken the poundage of the bow.  It may take a number of adjustments before we start to see the broadhead tipped arrows begin to work their way toward the target points.  It all depends on just how weak the spine was for the bow.  You will want to do the exact opposite for a spine that is showing too stiff.  In this case we want to increase the poundage of the bow in 1/4 turn increments until the two come together.

Be careful to follow the manufacturers advise on how many turns are safe when backing off the limb bolts to reduce poundage!!  If you are unable to decrease or increase the poundage enough to bring the two type points together you may need to change the arrow spine altogether.  If this happens you will need to start the process all over once you possess the appropriate spined arrow.

Once you have the two points on the same line it is time to maximize it's forgiveness just as you did in the "Creep Tune".  To do this you will want to back off poundage until the broadhead tipped arrows POI just begins to leave the base line.  Then counting turns increase the poundage until the broadhead tipped arrow just starts to leave the base line again.  Divide the total number of turns in half and back off the poundage that amount.  Your result should leave you with the most forgiving finely tuned spine for your bow, your chosen broadhead and your shooting style.

Whatever your poundage is and whatever your speed works out to be it should still provide you with a better more enjoyable bow to shoot.  Those in Washington State will need to remember to check their grains per pound to be sure you are still legal because of that ridiculously stupid rule!

This is a labor intensive process and may need multiple days at the range to complete depending on your fatigue level.  As such many feel it is too much work for too little reward.  But to me it is one of those little things that adds mental strength and improves my confidence in big ways.  To me that is an important step toward my enjoyment of the sport.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 16, 2015, 01:27:58 AM
Those were the two biggest little things to explain.  The rest are rather simple little things to show and explain.  I have twelve total written down.  Though I expect more will come to mind as we continue forward.  I will try to post one every day or every couple days as time permits.

Top 10 List:
1 - Creep Tune
2 - Spine Tune
3 - FOC
4 - Helical Fletching
5 - Lower Your Anchor
6 - Old Bows and New Strings
7 - Proper release fit
8 - Warm Up Blind
9 - Why do I shoot Low at close range and High at long range?
10 - Peep Sight - Big or Small
11 - Where is my next arrow
12 - Bowhunter's magic tape
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 16, 2015, 06:21:00 AM
Radsav you da man.   :bow:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: steeliedrew on March 16, 2015, 10:17:10 AM
Radsav you da man.   :bow:

 :yeah:

I'd pay money to hang out at the range for a day and learn from you Radsav!  Sometimes I feel like archery shops want to rush through your tune and get onto the next customer.  I'd love it if there were a place that would take the time to "super tune" like you've been describing.  I suppose I better take notes and get after it though.  I know i'm no where near tuned the way I could be.  We have 6 months til Elk...Time to do work :tup:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on March 16, 2015, 10:24:35 AM
Radsav you da man.   :bow:

 :yeah:

I'd pay money to hang out at the range for a day and learn from you Radsav!  Sometimes I feel like archery shops want to rush through your tune and get onto the next customer.  I'd love it if there were a place that would take the time to "super tune" like you've been describing.  I suppose I better take notes and get after it though.  I know i'm no where near tuned the way I could be.  We have 6 months til Elk...Time to do work :tup:
X2
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 16, 2015, 10:25:11 AM
Radsav you da man.   :bow:

 :yeah:

I'd pay money to hang out at the range for a day and learn from you Radsav!  Sometimes I feel like archery shops want to rush through your tune and get onto the next customer.  I'd love it if there were a place that would take the time to "super tune" like you've been describing.  I suppose I better take notes and get after it though.  I know i'm no where near tuned the way I could be.  We have 6 months til Elk...Time to do work :tup:

He never shows up! I've been watching the door at Archery world every Wednesday for 2 years now and have yet to press the flesh with this man. It might just be me.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 16, 2015, 03:58:03 PM
Sometimes I feel like archery shops want to rush through your tune and get onto the next customer.  I'd love it if there were a place that would take the time to "super tune" like you've been describing.

Most Pro Shop do not have the personnel to spend so much time on a tune.  If they were to charge a going hourly rate for such a tune they would likely see their name on Hunt-Washington...and not in a positive light!!  The "Creep Tune" usually does require a press so often times it needs to be done at a shop with a range.  But it should be much cheaper if not free to do yourself.  Really is quite easy once you understand control cables, power cables and how to advance or retard a chosen cam.

Maybe I should send my Hooter Shooter up to D-Rock for a few months.  It makes short work of Creep Tuning.  I assume with his access to the club maybe he would want to make a little antelope hunting money on the side :dunno: I would need to get my laser fixed first.  But...It could happen, maybe!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: DRENALINJUNKIE on March 16, 2015, 04:06:43 PM
Tag
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: SemperFidelis97 on March 16, 2015, 04:21:15 PM
Tagged as well. :tup:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jarhead Chase on March 16, 2015, 06:35:54 PM
tag
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: addicted2hunting on March 16, 2015, 07:21:32 PM
I too need to get this dialed!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: mountainman on March 16, 2015, 08:19:33 PM
Good idea for a thread Rad! The average pro shop just can't charge enough for super tuning, or I should say, most customers won't pay that much.
Good info so far. Will be returning to this thread regularly. Even some of us" old" guys can learn a thing or two! ☺
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: 6haase6 on March 16, 2015, 08:32:17 PM
Tag
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 16, 2015, 08:36:09 PM
Good info so far. Will be returning to this thread regularly. Even some of us" old" guys can learn a thing or two! ☺

I think the old guys might be willing to try some of the more controversial stuff than the newbies will.  I know I look back at my best years and we did things so different.  I try to use those experiences and revisit them often.  I've fixed a lot of my recent troubles that way even though the techniques go against everything the new generation is trying to teach.  #9 through #12 are all old school little things that might need us old guys with history to fully understand :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lokidog on March 16, 2015, 09:00:14 PM
Hmmm, tagging for when I get back to shooting.....   :sry:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 17, 2015, 06:18:15 AM
"Maybe I should send my Hooter Shooter up to D-Rock for a few months.  It makes short work of Creep Tuning.  I assume with his access to the club maybe he would want to make a little antelope hunting money on the side :dunno: I would need to get my laser fixed first.  But...It could happen, maybe!"
     Dont even know what to think about this.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 17, 2015, 06:50:18 AM
Dont even know what to think about this.

Opportunity!!!

Since you have all that free time, you know :tung:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 17, 2015, 06:59:20 AM
Dont even know what to think about this.

Opportunity!!!

Since you have all that free time, you know :tung:
yep lots of free time.  :chuckle:  was thinking seriously about looking at a building in woodinville.  (Just a dream) :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 17, 2015, 07:03:24 AM
Been there, done that.  Don't do it!! :chuckle:


You'd make more money and have a brighter outlook on the human race if you tune bows for $0.25 an hour!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: steeliedrew on March 17, 2015, 08:07:54 AM
Radsav,

I'll be doing some creep tuning eventually but first I have a bad case of TP that needs to be squashed before baselines can be established.  I shot the other night and for the life of me could not float my pin over the spot.  I could only hold directly below the dot.  Now I'm always holding low.  I've also got a big problem with punching my release.  I picked up a truefire hardcore 4 finger revolution a while back and am going to try and teach myself to shoot it with back tension and do a bunch of blind bale shooting at home.  My wrist strap release is a truefire hardcore fold back that I love but I can't seem to stop punching it.

Standing by for your next installment on bow tuning and also wouldn't mind some words of wisdom about Target Panic. :yike:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 17, 2015, 08:55:55 AM
Been there, done that.  Don't do it!! :chuckle:


You'd make more money and have a brighter outlook on the human race if you tune bows for $0.25 an hour!
after i win a million on lottery than I'll spend it all on my archery shop.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 17, 2015, 09:00:00 AM
Printing, err I mean, Tagging  :hello:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 17, 2015, 09:47:45 AM
I'll be doing some creep tuning eventually but first I have a bad case of TP that needs to be squashed before baselines can be established.  I shot the other night and for the life of me could not float my pin over the spot.  I could only hold directly below the dot.  Now I'm always holding low.  I've also got a big problem with punching my release.  I picked up a truefire hardcore 4 finger revolution a while back and am going to try and teach myself to shoot it with back tension and do a bunch of blind bale shooting at home.  My wrist strap release is a truefire hardcore fold back that I love but I can't seem to stop punching it.

Oh Man!  I'm sorry to hear about that.  It's an ailment you can work through, but if you are like me you will never again be able to relax and shoot a bow again.  For me it only goes away if I'm shooting at animals further than 40 yards.  Terrible affliction :'(

After my big nationwide tour I came back almost ready to quite shooting the bow.  Went from a normal 3rdish place in tournaments to being lastish in one year.  Gave up competitive shooting all together.  Which was fine, I never was going to be a Terry Ragsdale anyway ;)  The worst part was I was missing animals.  I had hunted ten states and missed animals in all but one.  And of course the bigger the animal the worse I missed >:(  Something major needed to be done!

Duke Savora talked me into going to Tempe, AZ and work with Al Hendersen (US Olympic Archery Coach).  First thing coach asked me when he saw my bow was, "What weight and draw are you shooting?"  When I told him 31"/80# he took my bow over to the trash can and threw it in.  Walks back over, grabs my finger glove and throws that in the trash too!   We dug them out after awhile, but he made his point. Later he asked why I was shooting a 31" draw length.  When I told him that was the only way I could get my bow to 80# he says, "I'm not sure I'm going to be able to help you with this mess you built..." 

I'm not sure what the name of the shop was there, but Desert Archery sounds about right.  Good enough for the story anyway.  So we go into Desert Archery and get me measured at 28.5" draw length.  Get a PSE Laser set up at 55#.  And get me a Wilson tab.  We also get a Check-it sight and remove the pin.  Replace it with a pin that has a brass washer soldered to the end...No aiming dot!!  Also get some sight black and make the washer flat black.  We also put a clicker on the bow.  Grabbed a few of those as I was told I'd probably shoot a few of them off the bow.  He was right!  I think I screwed up at least a half dozen.  Years later I found one called a "Klickety Klick" that I couldn't ruin.  Not a very good clicker, but good enough for working on target panic.  Believe you can still get those through Lancaster.

At the range I shot a while with sunglasses on.  Lenses were frosted so I could not see detail at all.  All I could see through the hole in the washer was color.  When the entire hole was yellow I would extend through the clicker using back tension and then release.  Shot some of the best groups of my life that first day.  And ruined a good number of XX75 golds.  Desert Archery was making a killing off of me :chuckle:

After four or five days with Coach I headed back to Oregon to work on things alone.  But, after only a month things were getting bad again and I made one more trip to AZ for a good buck kicking.  Was years before I started using pins again.  And by that time I actually shot cross hairs which didn't seem nearly as bad.  I still shoot an aperture with a ring much better than I do a pin.  Especially when shooting a Vegas face where all I have to do is shoot by color.

These days I spend a full month shooting at close distance before season using a back tension release and a Check-It drop pin with the pin nocked out.  I shoot at HUGE spots and work on form and follow through more than sighting.  My release of choice for doing this is the Carter Attraction.  I start off using it as a true tension release and then switch to using it as a back tension/pinky release.  Everything goes back to the basics I learned from Coach.  Of course I have modified a few things to better fit with our modern equipment.  But the steps pretty much stay the same.

About ten years ago I started struggling really bad.  I'd work on the basics over and over and over.  Started thinking it was time to hang it up.  The wife and I went from an 18" tv, to a 30" tv, to a 46" tv and then a 56" tv and I started thinking that maybe my eyes might have something to do with it.  Duh!! :chuckle:  With a lot of special angry squaw talk she finally talked me into going to see the witch doctor and I came home a much more mature man with four eyes.  Been shooting great ever since and my target panic is really well under control.  Unless I just jinxed myself.

This thread is meant to be about little things.  Believe me when I tell you over coming target panic IS NOT a little thing!!  Perhaps after I'm done with this I'll start a whole new thread dealing with target panic and step by step ways to attack it and keep it under control.  Hopefully there were some little things in the above story that will help until then.  Now go get your eyes checked!!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jellymon on March 17, 2015, 10:10:21 AM
 :)
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: steeliedrew on March 17, 2015, 10:13:21 AM
RadSav,

I really appreciate you taking the time to go off topic and share the above story!  The wife has been after me for quite some time to get the eyes checked out.  I will do that for sure.  :tup:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 17, 2015, 10:21:00 AM
If only men could listen to their wives earlier.  But we just never know when that blah, blah, blah, nag, nag, nag is going to produce something useful :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: stromdiddily on March 17, 2015, 10:26:02 AM
Radsav,
I'll be doing some creep tuning eventually but first I have a bad case of TP that needs to be squashed before baselines can be established.  I shot the other night and for the life of me could not float my pin over the spot.  I could only hold directly below the dot.  Now I'm always holding low.

Not to get Rad's thread too off topic but, do you come down to the target or up to it?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: steeliedrew on March 17, 2015, 10:29:13 AM
If only men could listen to their wives earlier.  But we just never know when that blah, blah, blah, nag, nag, nag is going to produce something useful :chuckle: :chuckle:

I just lol'd on that one!  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 17, 2015, 11:16:22 AM
Not to get Rad's thread too off topic but, do you come down to the target or up to it?

I'm not sure there is really any right or wrong answer to that.  But for myself, when hunting, I drop down.  However, when I'm working on basics to keep target panic at bay I mix it up as often as possible.  The more I can keep my mind busy on something other than the struggle of target panic the better off I am.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: groundhog on March 17, 2015, 11:39:29 AM
It is always the little things.... Thanks for sharing!!!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJD on March 17, 2015, 12:56:10 PM
Little things are like pennies, ya add enough of them together and they add up to something big.
Sometimes, a little thing can make all the difference.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on March 17, 2015, 01:35:26 PM
Had a chief once tell me sweat the small stuff & that will take care of the big stuff. Great thread
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 17, 2015, 01:45:25 PM
Rad, I get panicked thinking about target panic  :yike:  that was a great post that hopefully helps a lot of people.

I have target panic on practice targets but in the woods I've yet to have target panic.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: steeliedrew on March 17, 2015, 01:50:45 PM
I'm ready to take some more notes RadSav. I'm especially looking forward to what you have to say about lowering my anchor.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 19, 2015, 03:41:13 AM
Sorry for the delay.  Just about have all the taxes for 2014 reconciled and completed.  Hope to get a few more off my list before 1Q2015 paperwork starts!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: steeliedrew on March 19, 2015, 10:00:11 AM
No worries Rad. taxes suck!  :sry:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 19, 2015, 10:59:48 AM
No worries Rad. taxes suck!  :sry:

"Start your own business", they said.  "Be your own boss", they said.  "Enjoy the fruits of your labor", they said.  "Owning your own archery company won't even seem like work", they said! 

They forgot to tell me I wouldn't get paid the first three years but would have to pay taxes on fictitious personal income.  They forgot to tell me I'd work 18 to 20 hours a day.  They forgot to tell me I'd spend 80% of my time paying monthly taxes, quarterly taxes twice a quarter and annual taxes four times a year.  They also forgot to tell me I'd be so tired that I'd spend most of my hunting seasons sleeping in the truck while the wife hunted on her own.

At least I know that in five years or less this will be someone else's "dream come true" :tung: :tung: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JBar on March 19, 2015, 01:30:06 PM
Been there, done that.  Don't do it!! :chuckle:


You'd make more money and have a brighter outlook on the human race if you tune bows for $0.25 an hour!
after i win a million on lottery than I'll spend it all on my archery shop.

Not very fond of money are you  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 19, 2015, 01:45:31 PM
I know how to get a small fortune in the archery business.

1)  Get a large fortune doing something else
2)  Go into an archery business
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 19, 2015, 02:36:52 PM
Still nice to go to work each day in sleepers and house pants! :chuckle:  Sleep is over rated anyway.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: mburrows on March 19, 2015, 02:46:27 PM
bump.  information overload
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 22, 2015, 09:51:06 AM
Been there, done that.  Don't do it!! :chuckle:


You'd make more money and have a brighter outlook on the human race if you tune bows for $0.25 an hour!
after i win a million on lottery than I'll spend it all on my archery shop.

Not very fond of money are you  :chuckle:
who needs money when you can play with bows all day.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 22, 2015, 10:45:14 AM
Problem arises when most of the bows in an archery shop are attached to some dumb...  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: earlmarne on March 22, 2015, 10:58:30 AM
This is good stuff.
I love screwin around with my equipment.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 22, 2015, 11:15:28 AM
Closing in on the last of the audit paperwork, reconciling and year end taxes.  Hope to put #3 on the board tomorrow!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Solohunter84 on March 22, 2015, 12:49:42 PM
Tag
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 24, 2015, 07:58:51 PM
Closing in on the last of the audit paperwork, reconciling and year end taxes.  Hope to put #3 on the board tomorrow!

Well...maybe tomorrow :bash:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: wt on March 25, 2015, 10:51:55 PM
tagaroonie
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: stromdiddily on March 26, 2015, 08:50:37 AM
Rad - you see the letter posted by Matt McPherson regarding the alleged sale of Mathews?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 26, 2015, 09:10:53 AM
Rad - you see the letter posted by Matt McPherson regarding the alleged sale of Mathews?

I had a few texts and emails forwarding a letter from Matt.  Not sure if that is the one you are talking about :dunno:  I know Matt was making phone calls a week or more ago asking certain individuals to stop rumors.  My inside Mathews guy also said nothing is changing.  So the letters I saw yesterday seem valid.

Good for Mathews fans.  Good for the industry too, I think!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 28, 2015, 04:28:31 PM
FOC – Front of Center (Part 1 of 2)

As used within the sport of archery “FOC” refers to the percentage of your arrows total weight that resides in the front half.  Seems simple enough, doesn’t it?  I call it one of the little things because it takes very little to transform a poor balanced shaft into a well balanced shaft.  All you really need to do to improve your arrows balance is to either add weight to the front or take weight from the back.

I probably get more PM’s throughout the year dealing with FOC, and why it really matters, than just about any other single topic.  Why is balance so important in an arrow?  Why do I suggest 12-15%?  Can this little thing really make a big difference in my success?  Answers that are easy in the class room using visual aids can be difficult to understand in basic print.  But I will try my best to paint a picture here.

The first thing to understand is that an arrow is not all that much different than a battery.  Uncharged it is nothing more than a paperweight or a stake for your tomatoes.  Once fully charged it holds enough energy to maintain flight and penetrate minor obstacles.  It is charged when the bow transfers its stored energy into the nock upon release where in turn the energy ripples forward into the mass weight of the entire shaft.  Staying there until an opposing force of energy (friction) eventually drains the charge and it once again becomes a stake for your tomatoes.

Charging this arrow with more energy holding cells in the front than in the back basically allows more velocity maintaining power to pull the arrow through the friction.  If we were to try and push from the back all the opposing forces impacting the front would make it difficult to maintain a straight line of flight and maintain a straight rigid shaft.
 
A good visual aid here is to lay a length of string on a table.  First pull the string from one end across the table.  Then try to push the string from one end across the table.

In that visual not only does pulling keep the string straight, but the straight path reduces the amount of friction applied to the string beyond just where the energy is applied.  The less friction applied to the shaft the less energy it loses.  This is also true when the arrow impacts its target.  The more energy stored in the front when we strike an obstacle the less energy there is to ripple forward down the shaft focusing more energy to the point where it is needed and wasting less in the path getting there.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: steeliedrew on March 28, 2015, 06:26:54 PM
Notes being taken... :tup:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: coachcw on March 28, 2015, 07:24:51 PM
So rav have you found a percentage where you loose advantage of foc..?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 28, 2015, 07:33:12 PM
I added 40 grains up front on my hunting arrows last summer and noticed a huge difference in down range arrow grouping.  I was so concerned with getting speed out of my T-Rex arm draw  my foc was way under what it should have been.  I turned my bow up to 67# and added 40 grains up front that put my foc up to about 13.5%.  Speed isn't everything i thought it was.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: pd on March 28, 2015, 07:36:37 PM
Tagged.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 28, 2015, 07:58:21 PM
So rav have you found a percentage where you loose advantage of foc..?
  i've always wondered about this myself.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bullfisher on March 28, 2015, 08:23:51 PM
I've been shooting over 19.5% FOC since 2009. Its hard to achieve and makes FOC the focus of the arrow build from the beginning, but the benefits of doing so are tremendous. The focus today seems to be on 100grn BH's, the lightest inserts and heavy illuminated nocks, resulting in the opposite.  :twocents:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: earlmarne on March 28, 2015, 08:29:06 PM
I just built me an arrow thats sitting at a little over 18.50 % foc. I am not a good enough shot to tell one way or the other but it sure makes getting my broad heads flying with my field points a ton easier.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 28, 2015, 08:39:37 PM
FOC – Front of Center (Part 2 of 2)

While storing energy in the right place is obviously beneficial it is only half of the FOC story.  Leverage is a large part of the FOC equation as well.

If we have an FOC of 10% that means we have 10% more energy stored in the front half of the arrow than we do in the back half with a mechanical leverage of 1.5X on the fletching end of the shaft (60/40=1.5).  It is in that leverage number we really see the difference between magic and troubled flight in varied environments.  The higher the leverage number the more difficult it is for opposing forces impacting the broadhead to affect the stability of the entire shaft.  In my personal opinion there is always a level of compromise wanted between the leverage number and speed/trajectory.  However, there really is no such thing as too high a number unless it adversely affects the arrows spine.

If our arrow were to be balanced dead center it would have an FOC of zero and a neutral mechanical leverage (50/50=1). So not only would the front half of the arrow have no energy advantage, but the back half would have no leverage advantage either.  This is desirable in anemometers and pinwheels but not so much in arrows meant for down range targets.
 
An arrow with an FOC of just 5% (55/45) would have 5% more energy in the front and the fletching would have an approximate 22% leverage advantage over the front.  FOC of 10% the fletching would have an approximate 50% leverage advantage over the front.  And at 15% FOC the fletching would have an approximate 80% advantage.  Knowing that, you can see how fast we can improve the leverage the fletching has with every 1% of FOC we add.

The magic really seems to happen at a mechanical leverage of 1.5.  However, since friction on the broadhead and friction on the fletching are constantly changing the balance of energy so does the virtual fulcrum point of leverage.  From my experience I believe this fulcrum variance usually falls between 2 & 5% depending on broadhead and fetching size (number of blades and fletching as well).  That being the reason I recommend a 12-15% FOC instead of just being happy with 10%.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 28, 2015, 08:57:42 PM
So rav have you found a percentage where you loose advantage of foc..?

If weight and speed remain constant your only loss should be in a weakened spine.  Possibly putting you weak for one arrow yet too stiff for the next arrow.  Gravity is not going to pull any faster just because you have more weight in the front rather than distributed among the length of the shaft.

If you can not simply take from the back and apply to the front there does tend to be a point where the loss of speed is greater than the benefit in return.  I've really not seen any advantage when I've gone above 15% in FOC in a center shot bow.  There does seem to be some advantage up to around 20% in the traditional bows I have shot.  But even then I'm usually fine tuning spine rather than making the most of a few percentage points above 15 FOC.  A good compromise is usually in order...even in traditional bows.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 28, 2015, 09:00:49 PM
Speed isn't everything i thought it was.

Obviously!  Seeing as how you have been shooting a Hoyt the whole time. :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 28, 2015, 09:09:42 PM
Speed isn't everything i thought it was.

Obviously!  Seeing as how you have been shooting a Hoyt the whole time. :chuckle:
can't get anything past you!  As I typed that I said Rads going to rip me for this.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 28, 2015, 09:16:12 PM
All in fun!  I find myself shooting my Bear Truth2 and Dark Horse more often than not.  I think those are rated at 318 or something close.  I'll take accuracy over speed any day.  Although I do refused to pay $1,400.00 for a bow that is neither more accurate nor faster than the one I have just to improve my social standing among range commandos' :tung:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 29, 2015, 06:18:28 AM
I am surprised the new Hoyt Nitrum hasn't been talked up more this year.  Seems Prime and Elite are taking much of that Hoyt talk away from the usual sources.  Sort of a shame since Hoyt finally stepped up speed without going to a 6" brace.  While at the same time honestly improving rigidity and system torque.  I haven't seen a Hoyt this good in decades.  I wonder if folks are just getting tired of the companies arrogance, if they've finally realized fit and finish does matter for that much money or if they just hate that new limb and vibra-slapper :dunno:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on March 29, 2015, 09:02:09 AM
Wow Rad, awesome info as usual  Thanks!! :tup:
So a question to follow up.  Could ask PM, but figure others can learn from it...

Given the choice If you can maintain proper spine and FOC do you favor a heavier slower arrow or a faster lighter arrow within Legal parameters? (6grain/#)

Quote
I got a new bow last year, Bowtech Carbon Knight 60#, 30.5" draw. (360grain min legal)
I have 2 different arrows currently
  • When I got it I had arrows from my previous bow that still worked.
    Vital Impact 300 (300spine made by GT for Sportsmans WH), AMO length: 30.625, 400grain with 100grain field tip, Std nocks, 11.43FOC
  • Then I picked up some of these @ Sportco when they had a sale going ($40/doz).
    Archer Edge 7595 (by GT), AMOlength: 30.625, 415grain with 100grain tip, std nocks, 10.82FOC.

The challenge I ran into was the Vitals shot great with regular nock and FT.  As the season approached I added BH and Nocturnals and things went "sideways"  I had my bow looked at and they did a paper tune got her sending the arrow out cleanly which helped some.  Back home and started tinkering with tip/nock combinations on both arrows. 
The Vital 300's shot better which was the problem I had 4 left when I got the Archers choice and I lost 2 more of them to arrow strikes during practice forcing me to migrate to the Archers choice as the season was starting.
I ended up with a Archers choice that flew pretty well, I revaned with 2" blazes and 3* helical,  This helped drop tail weight and improved FOC marginally, they shot a little better.  They were lower velocity due to a large increase in weight (445grain) to get them to make 11FOC.
    Here were the final numbers with nocturnals and 100G BH:
    • The Vitals are 407Grain @ 11.63FOC, 292fps over chrono.
    • The Archers Choice are 445grain (a +20grain insert weight added to maintain FOC) @11.0FOC, 272fps
I am looking at buying new arrows and relegate the Archers choice to being practice arrows only.  They will be something to send down range and work on consistency with field points without concern about arrow loss.

Do I go with the Vitals again or since even they are well over Min weight do I look for something a bit lighter..  Something to allow me to improve FOC even more with inserts or insert weights if even needed and still be near min weight? (I have GT screw in weights I use for the Archers Choice)  Vitals are really economical ($37/6) but flatter shooting and better FOC is very tempting.  If I could get to ~360-370grain AND 12-15FOC I think that might be the sweet spot and probably put me around 300fps on the nose, KE change is only -2 going lighter and faster.

My thinking is that a faster shooting, higher FOC will be flatter shooting which will be forgiving if ranging errors and better ability to put an arrow thru smaller shot windows as well as being more consistent overall?  Thoughts on spine? 300 or 340?[/list]
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 29, 2015, 04:37:14 PM
Wow, that was a little confusing.  Are those weights and FOC numbers with Nockturnals and broadheads or without?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on March 29, 2015, 06:08:47 PM
Wow, that was a little confusing.  Are those weights and FOC numbers with Nockturnals and broadheads or without?

Sorry about that Rad.
The last numbers were nockturnals and broadheads.  Early number were original std nocks and field tips.  I added a little to post to clarify..
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 29, 2015, 06:52:33 PM
I haven't found the Nockturnals to be as accurate as my Easton nocks.  Seems they might stick or push the plunger down at different rates.  So if you are like me that could be some of your inconsistency once you put those on. :dunno:  Still one of the better ones I've tried though.

I'd say you want the 300 spine at that length.

If you use a range finder the over/under is so minimal at the speed differences you are talking about I wouldn't worry.  Might be a different story if you were guessing yardage on a 3-D course.  But in real hunting conditions it doesn't make a hill of beans worth of difference.  So go with what shoots most accurate and let velocity fall where it may.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 29, 2015, 07:49:18 PM
Vibra slapper :bash:  i had a long conversation about that with the hoyt rep told him it was the dumbest thing I've ever seen.  I took mine off first thing replaced them with the old limb savers (See pic below).  Hoyt rep told me I was wrong and the virbra slappers were better.  He also told me hoyt would never make a turbo version of a carbon bow I guess he was wrong  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 29, 2015, 07:54:16 PM
Best part of that bow is the super sexy stabilizer :tup:  I can not for the life of me figure out why that isn't the most popular stabilizer out there.  Guess guys would rather have a back up bar stool attached to there bow :chuckle:

I think that vibra-slapper would have worked just fine if they had spent the money and made it out of Sims Navcom instead of Santoprene. :dunno:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 29, 2015, 08:07:01 PM
Wish i could find another one of those stabilizers.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 29, 2015, 08:08:49 PM
Best part of that bow is the super sexy stabilizer :tup:  I can not for the life of me figure out why that isn't the most popular stabilizer out there.  Guess guys would rather have a back up bar stool attached to there bow :chuckle:

I think that vibra-slapper would have worked just fine if they had spent the money and made it out of Sims Navcom instead of Santoprene. :dunno:
you must have not seen the sweet peep i have on this bow.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 29, 2015, 08:47:19 PM
Wish i could find another one of those stabilizers.

What color are you looking for?  I'm sure Cory could come up with one if we ask him.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 29, 2015, 08:55:10 PM
Wish i could find another one of those stabilizers.

What color are you looking for?  I'm sure Cory could come up with one if we ask him.
camo or black im easy
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on March 29, 2015, 09:34:00 PM
Thanks Rad!!

I just messed with the Vital Impacts I have left.
usable for sure, but I will see if there are any arrows that are lighter shaft without breaking the bank.  I will check out the Easton nocks as well.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 29, 2015, 10:07:41 PM
  • When I got it I had arrows from my previous bow that still worked.
    Vital Impact 300 (300spine made by GT for Sportsmans WH), AMO length: 30.625, 400grain with 100grain field tip, Std nocks, 11.43FOC
  • Then I picked up some of these @ Sportco when they had a sale going ($40/doz).
    Archer Edge 7595 (by GT), AMOlength: 30.625, 415grain with 100grain tip, std nocks, 10.82FOC.


Here were the final numbers with nocturnals and 100G BH:
  • The Vitals are 407Grain @ 11.63FOC, 292fps over chrono.
  • The Archers Choice are 445grain (a +20grain insert weight added to maintain FOC) @11.0FOC, 272fps

I'm sorry I still remain confused.  It sounds as though you only added 7 grains to your arrow when you added the Nockturnal.  While that is odd the fact you gained in FOC while adding to the back of the arrow is even more odd.  Did you change fletching at the same time?  That might make a difference in my figures, but it would still seem as though the weight was added to the back which should decrease the FOC number, shouldn't it?

Then adding 20 grains to the insert you gained just one percent in FOC.  Numbers seem to not be adding up.  Unless I'm reading wrong.  Are you getting these weight figures from actual measurements or from a program like Archers Advantage?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 30, 2015, 08:48:43 AM
I just messed with the Vital Impacts I have left.
  • Blazer vanes, 100g Razor trick, Std nockl, 20grain insert weight, 427grains, 12.86FOC
  • Blazer vanes, 100g Razor trick, Nockturnal, 20grain insert weight, 436grains, 11.43FOC
usable for sure, but I will see if there are any arrows that are lighter shaft without breaking the bank.  I will check out the Easton nocks as well.

Going to be tough finding an arrow lighter than the Vital/GT Vapor.  Those speed and weight numbers do not seem out of line for a 30.625" arrow.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on March 30, 2015, 09:19:52 AM
  • When I got it I had arrows from my previous bow that still worked.
    Vital Impact 300 (300spine made by GT for Sportsmans WH), AMO length: 30.625, 400grain with 100grain field tip, Std nocks, 11.43FOC
  • Then I picked up some of these @ Sportco when they had a sale going ($40/doz).
    Archer Edge 7595 (by GT), AMOlength: 30.625, 415grain with 100grain tip, std nocks, 10.82FOC.


Here were the final numbers with nocturnals and 100G BH:
  • The Vitals are 407Grain @ 11.63FOC, 292fps over chrono.
  • The Archers Choice are 445grain (a +20grain insert weight added to maintain FOC) @11.0FOC, 272fps

I'm sorry I still remain confused.  It sounds as though you only added 7 grains to your arrow when you added the Nockturnal.  While that is odd the fact you gained in FOC while adding to the back of the arrow is even more odd.  Did you change fletching at the same time?  That might make a difference in my figures, but it would still seem as though the weight was added to the back which should decrease the FOC number, shouldn't it?

Then adding 20 grains to the insert you gained just one percent in FOC.  Numbers seem to not be adding up.  Unless I'm reading wrong.  Are you getting these weight figures from actual measurements or from a program like Archers Advantage?
I was pulling that info from a spreadsheet I did last year, let me check when I get home and see if it was a typo.  That 407 does sound low based on the numbers that I got lastnight working on things.  I wonder if I looked at the wrong entry in my sheet and pulled std nock data for that 407 in my previous post, based on data below that would appear to be the case...

I have one Vital Impact left with factory fletching and one with 2" blazers, the blazers are heavier.  The last post I did with data was accurate and taken while sitting there at my desk on one actual arrow, just changing the nock.  I have not run either of the last two configurations over the chrono yet.

FYI curious which format you use for FOC?  I have seen two, one is AMO method and the other I think is maybe GT's method?

Hrmm was hoping I might find something lighter, I didn't think these sportsman rebranded arrows would be on the light side of spectrum..  I know many people hate the 6grn/# WA law as it is restrictive, but I cannot even get close to it to be a concern.  Blasted long orangatun arms!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 30, 2015, 11:05:03 AM
There is a nitpicky method that takes end of nock to tip of point, find center and then balance point.  That is the exact FOC way. For years that was the method I used. However, since FOC is going to vary to some degree either will be good enough for what we need. 

I use Archers Advantage a lot.  Simple quick and unless the broadhead is extremely long it's going to be close enough to get us in the ball park.  There is no absolute number set in stone.  My only real concern is making sure I have more than 10% forward.  Whether my 12-15% ends up being 11.5 - 14.5 or 13-16% isn't a big concern to me.  If I ended up 6-9% well then I'd be concerned.

I did not see the Vapor Pro on GoldTip's website last night.  So if you can find the SW Vital Impact on the shelf it might not be a bad idea to buy a few extra.  Just to be safe.  I'm not positive that is the same shaft, but they do match up closest in weight and performance from what I can tell.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on March 30, 2015, 11:34:40 AM
Thanks AGAIN RadSav!! :bow:

I will stop by tonight and see what they have.  You are making me nervous that they might discontinue!  They sure seem hard to beat for the price.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Smossy on March 30, 2015, 12:22:08 PM
How have I missed this thread? Good info Rad. Gonna all go into my Archery Journal.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: gaddy on March 30, 2015, 02:13:25 PM
D-Rock, What arrows are those in the picture? they look like the ones that came with this bow I got.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Smossy on March 30, 2015, 02:15:07 PM
D-Rock, What arrows are those in the picture? they look like the ones that came with this bow I got.
Pretty sure they're Goldtip XT Hunter's in 5575
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 30, 2015, 03:35:23 PM
D-Rock, What arrows are those in the picture? they look like the ones that came with this bow I got.
Pretty sure they're Goldtip XT Hunter's in 5575
smossy is right
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: gaddy on March 30, 2015, 03:48:46 PM
Just wondering. these are Beman, ICS Hunter 340's? The green pattern on the logo looked similar. Lots for me to learn here. Are the Bemans decent for learning with ? Most are field points, but the broad-heads are SKYBOLT XS 100 Grain.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Smossy on March 31, 2015, 02:54:32 AM
Just wondering. these are Beman, ICS Hunter 340's? The green pattern on the logo looked similar. Lots for me to learn here. Are the Bemans decent for learning with ? Most are field points, but the broad-heads are SKYBOLT XS 100 Grain.
The Beamin ICS hunter's are great arrows to learn and hunt with, specially for the price.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on March 31, 2015, 08:37:27 AM
Are the Bemans decent for learning with ? Most are field points, but the broad-heads are SKYBOLT XS 100 Grain.

I am quite fond of the Beman ICS shafts.  There are usually a few in every batch that need to be culled, but for the price they are a good shaft.  Also come with Easton nocks which is a plus.  The important thing when first learning to shoot the bow is to shoot often and challenge yourself at some distances.  If you are breaking and loosing $100 in shafts every other day you tend to not challenge yourself much.  So ICS Hunters fit that bill very well.

As far as broadheads...friends don't let friends shoot Allen broadheads ;)
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Band on March 31, 2015, 01:06:47 PM
As far as broadheads...friends don't let friends shoot Allen broadheads ;)
Not sure any Allen product is worth buying. :peep:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Fullabull on April 04, 2015, 04:43:58 PM
Last year I purchased more FMJ's, asked to have them cut to 28 1/4. Started shooting my normal setup with 100 grn tips but for some reason my groups were less tight than before.I kept thinking something was going on with my bow and just couldn't figure out what was going on. At one point I shot off one of the vanes and set that arrow down next to my older arrows, hum something didn't look right. I picked up one of each and laid them next to each other and sure enough the new arrow was shorter than the other. Dang, now it maid sense! I had to change to 125 grn heads on the shorter arrows to get a better foc which made the difference.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on April 04, 2015, 04:48:41 PM
Last year I purchased more FMJ's, asked to have them cut to 28 1/4. Started shooting my normal setup with 100 grn tips but for some reason my groups were less tight than before.I kept thinking something was going on with my bow and just couldn't figure out what was going on. At one point I shot off one of the vanes and set that arrow down next to my older arrows, hum something didn't look right. I picked up one of each and laid them next to each other and sure enough the new arrow was shorter than the other. Dang, now it maid sense! I had to change to 125 grn heads on the shorter arrows to get a better foc which made the difference.

How much shorter were these arrows?  Must have been quite a bit to see a spine change of any significance!  Were they fletched with the same amount of helical/offset?  That is usually where you see a difference in batch to batch arrows within reasonable length of each other.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on April 04, 2015, 04:50:26 PM
Most all my paperwork is caught up.  Need to get broadheads caught up since I had to put them on the back burner while I got all reconciliation and taxes completed.  I think by mid week I should be able to have enough time to knock the rest of these twelve topics out before turkey season starts.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Fullabull on April 04, 2015, 06:27:48 PM
I think your right Rad, they are just over 1/2" shorter than the old arrows. Just did the FOC calculator and got in the 8% range on both arrows. I put the 125grn tips on and got them in the 10% range. Never realized my foc was that low! With the 125s my total arrow weight will be almost 500 grns. I shoot Montec BHs which only go to 125 grns. What else can I do to increase my foc without changing to even heavier BHs?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on April 04, 2015, 06:29:33 PM
Change your insert to a heavier one
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on April 04, 2015, 07:11:18 PM
Change your insert to a heavier one
Do the FMJ's have GT inserts?  If so he can maybe use the GT weight system to screw weight into the back of the insert.  Saves cutting(making FOC even worse) and putting new inserts in.  I had to do that on my arrows when I added lumenocks and my FOC was to low.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gold-Tip-Point-Weight-Screw-Combo-20gr-12-pk/361045539921?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D30084%26meid%3D3fb2e155e4fb487da91c60dc4fbe16ff%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D281648807938&rt=nc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gold-Tip-Point-Weight-Screw-Combo-20gr-12-pk/361045539921?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D30084%26meid%3D3fb2e155e4fb487da91c60dc4fbe16ff%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D281648807938&rt=nc)
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on April 04, 2015, 08:27:03 PM
I think your right Rad, they are just over 1/2" shorter than the old arrows. Just did the FOC calculator and got in the 8% range on both arrows. I put the 125grn tips on and got them in the 10% range. Never realized my foc was that low! With the 125s my total arrow weight will be almost 500 grns. I shoot Montec BHs which only go to 125 grns. What else can I do to increase my foc without changing to even heavier BHs?

Did you check the fletching?  Are the offsets the same?

1/2" can be quite a bit.  Especially with small diameter arrows and if you are on the edge of having too much or not enough spine.  So it could be a spine issue as well as the FOC issue.  It's rather dangerous to replace inserts in FMJ arrows.  Very easy to damage the bond between the aluminum and carbon.  If you do try I suggest getting as long a field point as possible and heat the point not the shaft.  also good to place a few washers between the shoulder of the point and the shaft so as you rotate it you won't be twisting at the face cut.

If it were me I'd refletch with as much helical as I could get on those skinny shafts and call the 10% good enough until I could afford replacements and some heavier inserts.

Title: Re: The little things
Post by: raydog on April 05, 2015, 08:00:25 PM
Tag and patiently waiting for the helical topic :)
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Fullabull on April 06, 2015, 11:23:40 AM
Rad, Helical is pretty much that same but with the 125grn heads on the new arrows, they seem to group more like the older longer arrows that have 100grn tips on them. I just didn't realize that even my old arrows were so low in FOC. They have been great to shoot and group well out to 70 yards or so. I'm going to use the 125s on both now and like you said live with the 10%. Both arrows shoot very well, the new ones were just a little bigger on groupings before putting the 125s on.
Thanks for the help and you posts... Great Idea!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Fullabull on April 17, 2015, 03:30:39 PM
Hey Rad, sorry if I hijacked your excellent Post :(
I'm sure we are all awaiting you next Little Thing. These are great tips for saving money :)

Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on April 17, 2015, 04:49:20 PM
I will try to work on the helical topic shortly after getting back from turkey hunting.  CL has been having a rough time finding Toms.  We will be home either way Saturday night.  So probably Sunday or Monday.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on April 30, 2015, 09:03:26 PM
Hey Rad do you ever experiment with offsetting your vanes? Any spin or other gains from doing this?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 01, 2015, 05:37:27 PM
Perhaps I'm not understanding the question :dunno:  Helical vanes are offset vanes.  They just follow the contour of the shaft rather than trying to put a square peg in a round hole.  No molded spin kicker, flap or gimmick is going to give you what a well fletched full helical vane will.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on May 01, 2015, 05:42:41 PM
Sorry I meant more like this
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 01, 2015, 05:56:20 PM
That would hurt my brain :yike:


I did shoot these for a lot of years..
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: raydog on May 01, 2015, 07:15:32 PM
Sorry I meant more like this
I don't see the benefit? Looks like it was fletched wrong! :twocents:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 01, 2015, 09:02:22 PM
Sorry I meant more like this
I don't see the benefit? Looks like it was fletched wrong! :twocents:

Yeah, I can not fathom a benefit either.  I will think on it a bit, but at first glace the only thing I see are negatives.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 02, 2015, 07:24:56 AM
Looks like a D-rock fletch job.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 02, 2015, 01:48:22 PM
Sorry I meant more like this
I don't see the benefit? Looks like it was fletched wrong! :twocents:
Yeah, I can not fathom a benefit either.  I will think on it a bit, but at first glace the only thing I see are negatives.

Thought about it last night and through a restless nights sleep.  I can not think of a single thing that fletching in such a way would benefit.  There are three rather strong reasons not to fletch in such a way - Increased wind drift, reduced force compression and staggered rotational force.  IMO the biggest advantage of the Blazer vane is the reduction of wind drift.  Why would a person want to mess that up with fletching that looks like the arrowsmith was on crack?

Back 20 or 25 years ago we shot over draws and TM Hunter rests.  Back then having your arrow fall off the rest was a definite concern.  Many of us would fletch with the 4" vanes a little further from the nock so the cock vane would sit between the prongs making sure it would stay put before we started to draw.  That would be the only thing I could think of as a benefit.  Though I doubt a 2" Blazer would ever sit far enough forward to accomplish that.  Plus, very few people ever shoot the TM Hunter and overdraws in the field any longer.

So often seamheads try to fix things that aren't broken in an attempt to find a solution to a problem no one knew existed.  In the process they find discontent in everything and then wonder why they no longer enjoy their sport the way they did in the past.  I think that fletching might be a warning sign :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: kentrek on May 02, 2015, 02:35:14 PM
Sorry I meant more like this
I don't see the benefit? Looks like it was fletched wrong! :twocents:

Yeah, I can not fathom a benefit either.  I will think on it a bit, but at first glace the only thing I see are negatives.

I think I saw one of the guys on Tv fletch up arrows like this....can't remember exactly what show but I think it was jim burnsworth

Can't remember what the reason was
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on May 02, 2015, 04:16:03 PM
Actually that is where I got the hair brained idea from. Apparently it's supposed to be more stable out at longer distances & a bit more spin   
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 02, 2015, 04:32:31 PM
There is no benefit that i could see to staggered vanes like that... but no real noticeable con either.. except looking like a doof. Side wind force is exactly the same as all 3 aligned.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Johnb317 on May 08, 2015, 04:47:29 PM
Tag. Waiting for more!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 08, 2015, 04:52:25 PM
Tag. Waiting for more!

Sorry it has been taking so long.  Work, wife's b-day and "fun with flatulence" have been clouding my thoughts. :chuckle:  I will really try to get something more going very soon. 

Some good news on the broadhead front though.  We will start shipping four blade Madman broadheads tomorrow.  Plus I just got the first prototype run of the DelMastro and Vandyke 125 grain broadheads.  Look very good!  I think we will be able to start shipping those by July 1st.  I think D-Rock will have some for final testing and review by Tuesday!  Sure been exciting around here.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 09, 2015, 11:49:54 AM
Tag. Waiting for more!

Sorry it has been taking so long.  Work, wife's b-day and "fun with flatulence" have been clouding my thoughts. :chuckle:  I will really try to get something more going very soon. 

Some good news on the broadhead front though.  We will start shipping four blade Madman broadheads tomorrow.  Plus I just got the first prototype run of the DelMastro and Vandyke 125 grain broadheads.  Look very good!  I think we will be able to start shipping those by July 1st.  I think D-Rock will have some for final testing and review by Tuesday!  Sure been exciting around here.
it's to bad I'm not going to make it down that way as planned court date moved again now June 30th.  Pretty exited to one of these broadheads thru a world class spike elk come September.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 09, 2015, 02:38:24 PM
I thought today was Friday :chuckle:  Maybe I slept a full 24 hours :dunno:  So maybe you will have those heads Wednesday.  There will be a couple of them and your autographed book shipped out on Monday.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 09, 2015, 05:46:58 PM
I thought today was Friday :chuckle:  Maybe I slept a full 24 hours :dunno:  So maybe you will have those heads Wednesday.  There will be a couple of them and your autographed book shipped out on Monday.
thanks Radsav your the best!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 09, 2015, 05:49:16 PM
I need to read that book by this weekend before the state 3-D shoot.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 10, 2015, 05:28:26 AM
Helical Fletching: Part 1

One of the easiest ways to improve your "in field" accuracy is getting your arrow to spin.  Ask any football fan what happens when a quarterback doesn't get good spin on the ball and they will tell you it usually results in a wounded duck.  The same thing can be said for an arrow that does not spin enough to use force for stability.

The physics of rotating forces is rather confusing so I usually simplify the technical with the term gyro stability.  In reality (simplified) resistive force upon the fletching supplies energy to rotate the shaft on it's axis creating a rotating force of momentum.  The opposing reaction of this centripetal force results in an outward centrifugal force.  The influence of the radially outward force is proportional to the mass of the shaft wall, the distance of the mass from the axis of the shaft and the square of the angular velocity.

The smaller the diameter or the lighter the arrow the faster it must spin to achieve equal stability.  This explains why it was so easy for us to gain stability in the old 2413 and 2213 aluminum shafts as the mass was concentrated further from the axis of the shaft and our mild offset fletching was enough.  Todays carbon arrows are not only lighter, but the mass is less concentrated and located much closer to the shafts axis as well.  We routinely got 1.5" broadheads to fly well on our 2216 shafts back in the mid eighties.  Try doing that today with a 300 fps arrow and a micro diameter carbon shaft.  It's not such a routine endeavor anymore!  Faster arrows do spin faster, but the amount of speed increase is not usually within proportion of the reduce weight and mass orientation of these modern carbon arrows.

These small diameter shafts of today also pose a challenge when it comes to achieving proper offset.  Offset of the fletching regulates the path of shaft rotation.  The more offset the less distance a shaft must travel to complete a rotation.  The less distance a shaft must travel per revolution the faster it spins.  But on such a small diameter a straight/flat clamp can not wrap the fletching around the shaft enough to put an appropriate offset.  The Helical clamp on the other hand rotates the vane base closely enough to the allow for a much greater offset and still make solid contact between the shaft and the vane base.  Some of the newer helical jigs really allow this to occur to a point of perfection.  Bohning's Blazer Helix and Helix tower, Arizona's EZ Mini and EZ Helical Pro are ones I have used that really get you maximum rotation and dang near perfect base to shaft adhesion.  They each have their quirks, but once you get the hang of it they work great!

 
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 10, 2015, 06:23:19 AM
Helical Fletching:  Part 2

In the FOC section we covered pulling the arrow and the benefits that created.
FOC – Front of Center (Part 1 of 2)…

Charging this arrow with more energy holding cells in the front than in the back basically allows more velocity maintaining power to pull the arrow through the friction.  If we were to try and push from the back all the opposing forces impacting the front would make it difficult to maintain a straight line of flight and maintain a straight rigid shaft.
 
A good visual aid here is to lay a length of string on a table.  First pull the string from one end across the table.  Then try to push the string from one end across the table.

In that visual not only does pulling keep the string straight, but the straight path reduces the amount of friction applied to the string beyond just where the energy is applied.

Well, your fletching works best when it is also pulling.  Only this time the fletching is pulling in the opposite direction.  As the fletching absorbs energy to transfer into the rotation of the shaft it creates a pull, or more appropriately, a drag.  If we add that drag or opposing force of energy to the string example from FOC suddenly the string becomes straight and taut.  The more drag in a shorter amount of time and the arrow shaft and flight path straightens faster and the shot does a better job of holding true.  It also has an effect equal to an increase in dynamic spine.

Helical fletching creates a natural cup effect as it rotates around the shaft.  This cupping effect helps increase the drag upon the back end of the arrow until a maximum rotation velocity and energy transfer has occurred.  During this time of extreme opposing forces, maximum energy transfer forward and maximum drag, the arrow quickly recovers from its paradox.  The more drag the faster the recovery - assuming there is also proper energy forward.

Upon such time as the arrow reaches its peak rotational velocity the helical fletch and an offset fletch exert nearly equal amounts of drag.  This continues until the apex of the parabolic curve is reached and the arrow goes into its transition from being force motivated to gravity motivated.  During that transition the cupped effect of the helical fletched arrow helps stabilize the arrow once more by adding that little extra drag not present in a simple offset fletch.

I personally have not used a straight offset fletch while hunting in over 30 years.  I see absolutely no benefit to a straight offset vane.  Its effect on velocity is nearly nonexistent and its benefits scream loud and clear!  It may be a simple little thing, but it remains as one of the most important details in my arsenal. 
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Band on May 10, 2015, 05:39:02 PM
Hang on while I go get a physics degree so I can re-read that.  Better yet, I'm going to make it easy on myself and just get helical fetching because Rad endorses it. ;)
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Vo2max on May 14, 2015, 08:40:43 AM
Let me begin by saying "thank you" to RadSav for this Great post and wealth of knowledge! I'm learning a lot and I've been into archery for 25yrs.

Anyway, I have a question: I am trying to bring up my FOC on my Easton FMJ 300 arrows. I currently calculate an 8.4% FOC using archeryadvantageonline.com. I'm contemplating a 75grain insert which will bring FOC to 14% or if I cut the insert down to 50grains it would bring the FOC to 12%... With to do?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 14, 2015, 08:53:51 AM
Anyway, I have a question: I am trying to bring up my FOC on my Easton FMJ 300 arrows. I currently calculate an 8.4% FOC using archeryadvantageonline.com. I'm contemplating a 75grain insert which will bring FOC to 14% or if I cut the insert down to 50grains it would bring the FOC to 12%... With to do?

I'd say it depends on broadhead size and fletching.  If you have enough fletching, enough offset and an average broadhead I doubt you will see much difference between 12 and 14%.  If you are fletching with a jig that doesn't give you a real good helical offset, your fletching is small and/or your broadhead is big I'd go with the 14%.  FMJ's are nice arrows but they are not inherently stable with broadheads.  And they can be a pain to get full rotation due to small diameter combined with heavy weight close to the axis.  When I shot them I went 12.5% with right angle four fletch Blazers just under 3% os.  They flew great!!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Gringo31 on May 14, 2015, 08:56:07 AM
Tagging to soak this up at a later date...

Thx Rad!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Vo2max on May 14, 2015, 09:17:08 AM
I'd say it depends on broadhead size and fletching.  If you have enough fletching, enough offset and an average broadhead I doubt you will see much difference between 12 and 14%.  If you are fletching with a jig that doesn't give you a real good helical offset, your fletching is small and/or your broadhead is big I'd go with the 14%.  FMJ's are nice arrows but they are not inherently stable with broadheads.  And they can be a pain to get full rotation due to small diameter combined with heavy weight close to the axis.  When I shot them I went 12.5% with right angle four fletch Blazers just under 3% os.  They flew great!!
[/quote]

Thank you for the reply...
I shoot two different broadheads and both a bit different... first, the Slick trick 100grain standards and second, the Muzzy Mx-3's. As long as I have the 3 blades lined up with my three fletches using the MX-3's they fly great. And, as long as the FOC is a bit farther forward my FMJ's fly great using these broadheads. If the FOC is a bit back (5-6%) I do not get very good flight. I use a 6degree (I believe... could be 3% however but I do not recall off the top of my head) helical using the Arizona EZ fletch. I've considered moving to the slick trick 125grain magnums but tried not to spend even more money in broadheads! Any input welcomed.

ERIK
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 14, 2015, 09:28:18 AM
If that is the Arizona Mini it should be 4% if I remember correctly.  Nice if you can keep your fletching on!

If rotating your broadheads makes any difference at all you have problems somewhere.  And it usually isn't the broadhead! 

MX-3 and Slick Trick standards should be very much equal to one another.  The extra blade is about equal to the added width of the three blade.  Myself I'd choose the Slick Trick without a second thought.  Might be hard for me to not go with the 14% with those choices though.  Use some Blue stick on two arrows and try them both on a windy day.  Winner gets a chicken dinner and some real glue after that!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Vo2max on May 14, 2015, 05:34:53 PM
If that is the Arizona Mini it should be 4% if I remember correctly.  Nice if you can keep your fletching on!

If rotating your broadheads makes any difference at all you have problems somewhere.  And it usually isn't the broadhead! 

MX-3 and Slick Trick standards should be very much equal to one another.  The extra blade is about equal to the added width of the three blade.  Myself I'd choose the Slick Trick without a second thought.  Might be hard for me to not go with the 14% with those choices though.  Use some Blue stick on two arrows and try them both on a windy day.  Winner gets a chicken dinner and some real glue after that!

Thanks for the help RadSav! The EZ fletch has been great for me actually... have others had issues?

Oh, calling me out with my bow tuning abilities?  :). Call away man! I could probably use the help. Just within the last two years have I begun to truly focus on tuning and the finite details it takes to become more consistent and proficient with the stick and string... too much school, job(s), moving, kids, life etc got in the way before.

Anyway, Thanks for the advice on the Slick Tricks... any belief that the magnums would be better? I'm going to get the 75grain inserts which will bring the FOC to 14% and see how they go. wish me luck.

Thanks again,
ERIK
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 14, 2015, 06:04:19 PM
Oh, calling me out with my bow tuning abilities?  :). Call away man! I could probably use the help.

Not calling you out at all.  When rotating broadheads makes a difference even in the slightest, I first look at spine, then bow tuning, then FOC, then fletching.  Any difference with broadhead alignment is going to happen in the first five yards of flight.  It's not that the alignment is making a difference - it's just that you have found a consistent point of failure.  That failure has nothing to do with the broadhead.  Perhaps a larger broadhead makes the failure more evident than another head would, but that's about it.

Unless your arrow is excessively long you can probably rule out fletching.  The Mini and the Blazers should be a fine combination.  Unless you are shooting an excessively long arrow and some monster poundage the 300 spine should not be flexing too much.  So now we are talking bow tune and FOC.  8.4% is not excessively light, but combined with a large broadhead in the MX-3 and the small diameter arrow it could certainly be enough.  Absolutely not optimal!  8.4% plus an ever so slight tuning issue would be my best guess.

Myself I would creep tune and bump up the FOC.  If you still see a difference I'd then take another look at the rest.  If the rest proves to be tuned to perfection and the rotation of a broadhead is still making a difference?  Then blame the fletching and step up to a Max Hunter or four fletch.  Though I doubt you will need to get much further than the simple FOC improvement. Unless, once again, you have very long arrows and are shooting Safari level poundage.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 14, 2015, 06:09:13 PM
What length are your arrows?  What bow/poundage/draw length are you shooting?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on May 14, 2015, 06:41:42 PM
reading through all this makes me feel stoopid... I am having a hard time visualizing what you are saying. I know now that my bow is not tuned correctly though....HELP!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 14, 2015, 06:45:37 PM
reading through all this makes me feel stoopid... I am having a hard time visualizing what you are saying. I know now that my bow is not tuned correctly though....HELP!

Which part are you having difficulty visualizing?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on May 14, 2015, 06:46:34 PM
The first three posts is all I got through before I went cross eyed.... :bash: what I really need is to take my bow to someone that understands this process and show me how, I am a more hands on type of learner in cases like this
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 14, 2015, 07:13:48 PM
What is your opinion of Steve's Archery.  He has always struck me as a guy that understands the fine details rather well.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on May 14, 2015, 07:19:11 PM
What is your opinion of Steve's Archery.  He has always struck me as a guy that understands the fine details rather well.
Seems like a great guy but I get the feeling he gets annoyed of all my stupid questions.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Muleyman27 on May 14, 2015, 07:39:10 PM
I just went to Steve's archery for the first time yesterday. Seems very nice and very knowledgable. answered all of my questions that I had. I took my bow in there to see if it needed tuning or not and he checked the cam timing . and looked it over and everything was good!! I got myself some arrows and broadheads and the foc came out to 11.7%. I would recommend Steve's archery over any other bow shops I have been to yet
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 14, 2015, 07:51:01 PM
Good to hear.  I just sent him a care package of broadheads.  He was a lot of help when we were trying to buy Martin.  Plus he is always polite and factual at the shows.  I have not been in his shop, but I've always thought highly of his knowledge.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 14, 2015, 08:28:04 PM
What is your opinion of Steve's Archery.  He has always struck me as a guy that understands the fine details rather well.
Seems like a great guy but I get the feeling he gets annoyed of all my stupid questions.

That's a side effect of working retail.  The longer you work retail the more you lose faith in the human race!  I get annoyed just thinking about going back into retail. :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Vo2max on May 15, 2015, 09:00:25 AM
What length are your arrows?  What bow/poundage/draw length are you shooting?

30" arrow, Hoyt Faktor 34, 75lbs draw, 32" draw (6'6" wing span and 6'3" tall... positive ape index :) )
I think your conclusion about the rest is where my glitch may be. I need to do another tune and see where that takes me along with bumping up the FOC as you've suggested. Thanks again for the help.

ERIK
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 15, 2015, 09:07:22 AM
Why did you choose to shoot a 32" draw instead of 31"?

I also think with those numbers you may very well see an improvement by stepping up to the AAE MaxHunter vane.  Fantastic product.  I shoot it on all my three fletched arrows even when I don't need to!

Also according to my program you are WAY light on spine with that 300 shooting that length of arrow, draw length and the Safari poundage.  Looks like you would need to drop ten to 15 pounds of draw weight to reach optimal spine deflection with those numbers.  Needing Safari arrows for safari bows and gorilla arms ;) 

You can get a .001" Black Eagle - Rampage 250 with 56 grain stainless half-outs that would put your current FOC at 13%!  While keeping that small diameter of the FMJ and optimizing dynamic spine.

Also in checking the numbers I see the FOC numbers in my system telling me you are closer to 7.8% on your FOC.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Vo2max on May 15, 2015, 09:59:55 AM
Why did you choose to shoot a 32" draw instead of 31"?

I also think with those numbers you may very well see an improvement by stepping up to the AAE MaxHunter vane.  Fantastic product.  I shoot it on all my three fletched arrows even when I don't need to!

Also according to my program you are WAY light on spine with that 300 shooting that length of arrow, draw length and the Safari poundage.  Looks like you would need to drop ten to 15 pounds of draw weight to reach optimal spine deflection with those numbers.  Needing Safari arrows for safari bows and gorilla arms ;) 

You can get a .001" Black Eagle - Rampage 250 with 56 grain stainless half-outs that would put your current FOC at 13%!  While keeping that small diameter of the FMJ and optimizing dynamic spine.

Also in checking the numbers I see the FOC numbers in my system telling me you are closer to 7.8% on your FOC.

32" draw chose me! the 31" in draw Faktor is what i purchased... with D-Loop and release it made up for difference that I may have needed in needing a longer draw bow like the Hoyt Faktor 34 Long Draw.

Noted on the vane... I will get some and see how they go.

Based on the archeryadvantageonline.com site my spine, per the specs I entered, should be what i need. I have worked with Riverside Archery with the bow selection, arrow choice etc but cannot drive the 35min each way from Bellingham to have them figure all of this out as often as I would like to so I have taken to trying to learn and attempt it myself. Perhaps I should have them take a look again?

I am interested in which program you utilize for your calculations... if I can be more accurate with another program I'll use it instead. I could stand to cut the arrow down by a half an inch if needed... thought I'd try to see about bringing the kinetic energy up would help me... wanted complete pass throughs on elk (success thus far with first cow last September atleast). Archersadvantageonline.com says that my FOC was 8.4% with the set up I currently have. Interesting that they are different... Learning something in a big way throughout this conversation and thank you for the help.

ERIK
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 15, 2015, 10:35:38 AM
I get complete pass thrus with 64# and 400 grain arrows  :chuckle: 

I think the last elk that I did not get a pass through on was around '95 when I was shooting 240 fps and 2115 arrows with a 72# Hoyt.  Shot a spike twice behind the shoulder - once at 35 yards and once at 90 yards.  Both hit ribs and never broke through the opposite side.  A third arrow at 50 yards went right up the stink eye and out the throat...go figure :dunno:

Last good bull I killed was with the Bowtech Admiral, 62#, A/C/C Pro Hunter at 18 yards.  Broke both shoulders and the arrow was laying on the ground where he stood at impact.  I didn't mean to hit him in the shoulders but I got excited and smashed the release...Man did he come in fast!! :o

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the Rampage is going to be WAY more than enough.  And with the 56 gain half-out would give you the same weight and speed as what you have now.  Plus better spine and FOC.  30 fps edge over the 250 FMJ DG.


I've been running Archer's Advantage for quite a few years.  Not as accurate on FOC as doing it with a calculator and tape, but I've found them to be close enough and dang near perfect on dynamic spine.  And I have never had a bad sight tape on about 30 bows since signing up for the software.

... with D-Loop and release it made up for difference that I may have needed in needing a longer draw bow like the Hoyt Faktor 34 Long Draw

You lost me there.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Vo2max on May 15, 2015, 08:38:43 PM
I get complete pass thrus with 64# and 400 grain arrows  :chuckle: 

I think the last elk that I did not get a pass through on was around '95 when I was shooting 240 fps and 2115 arrows with a 72# Hoyt.  Shot a spike twice behind the shoulder - once at 35 yards and once at 90 yards.  Both hit ribs and never broke through the opposite side.  A third arrow at 50 yards went right up the stink eye and out the throat...go figure :dunno:

Last good bull I killed was with the Bowtech Admiral, 62#, A/C/C Pro Hunter at 18 yards.  Broke both shoulders and the arrow was laying on the ground where he stood at impact.  I didn't mean to hit him in the shoulders but I got excited and smashed the release...Man did he come in fast!! :o

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the Rampage is going to be WAY more than enough.  And with the 56 gain half-out would give you the same weight and speed as what you have now.  Plus better spine and FOC.  30 fps edge over the 250 FMJ DG.


I've been running Archer's Advantage for quite a few years.  Not as accurate on FOC as doing it with a calculator and tape, but I've found them to be close enough and dang near perfect on dynamic spine.  And I have never had a bad sight tape on about 30 bows since signing up for the software.

... with D-Loop and release it made up for difference that I may have needed in needing a longer draw bow like the Hoyt Faktor 34 Long Draw

You lost me there.

Ok, ok... I hear ha ;) r: pass throughout etc. 75lbs is not a challenge for me to pull back really. Even in horrible weather conditions so I automatically go for more pull than less... Perhaps I'm still old school... Or old habits die hard!

Anyway, having difficulty seeing how a 300 spine is too light... Shaft selector chart on Eastons site notes an FMJ 300 is just fine. If I upped the FOC through a a brass insert, changed the vanes per your suggestions I'm feeling confident I'd get the flight a bit more toward optimal. Or am I way off? Sorry to take so much of your time. If you prefer a PM or to tel me to take a hike I'll do either :).
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 15, 2015, 09:06:52 PM
My personal belief is that the Easton chart is way to generic these days.  They focus on static spine and often disregard variations of dynamic spine within a spine category.  Modern programs like Archer's Advantage really get down and dirty with dynamic spine.  For instance - they show the Rampage 250 as Optimal for your set up but don't even list the FMJ DG 250.  Same static spine, but drastically different performance in dynamic spine.

I was not sold on the program based spine charts over the Easton spine charts for the first couple years.  How could the Giant in arrows shaft history be so different and lacking, I thought.  Then over the years I began to see real life glaring results with the AA system over Easton's chart.  Not just for myself, but nearly 100% of the compound shooters I've helped over the years.  The system is so good that I have started to become lazy knowing I don't have to do the math...just type in the details and let them do it for me.  It really has been impressive.

Only down fall to the system is I have to accept that those guys are WAY smarter than I am :chuckle: :chuckle: :tung:

Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Vo2max on May 16, 2015, 10:14:59 PM
One thing I've learned is that the more I learn, the more I realize I know nothing!

Thank you for the help and advice RadSav. I'm going to go with your suggestions across the board. To argue/debate with someone who has your experience and knowledge would be ridiculous. I'll let know how the arrows turn out.

Thanks again.

Erik
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 16, 2015, 11:23:34 PM
Just to clarify.  I do like the FMJ shafts.  Shot them for a few years and they shot great for me.  Quite a few animals down and never the slightest issue with penetration or stability.  Some say the new ones don't stay as straight as the old ones, but I do not have any information to make that claim myself.  I am only suggesting the stiffer shaft based on spine deflection and what I think will be a much more stable and better balanced arrow for your set-up. 

Going stiffer and improving the FOC while maintaining the exact same weight is just a bonus.  I am not a huge fan of the construction of most the cheap carbon arrows on the market.  In all carbon arrows I prefer the Carbon Express or Carbon Tech construction best.  But there are so few options in the 250 spine category sometimes a compromise must be made.  And with the straightness of the top end Rampage I think that is a very good compromise.  One that should treat you well, I believe.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Vo2max on May 18, 2015, 09:27:08 AM
Thanks again and I just put in my order for the Rampage 250's along with the canes and inserts. Again, much appreciated.

Erik
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on May 31, 2015, 02:29:33 AM
Lower Your Anchor

Far too often I see shooters of short bows raising their anchor point up to the corner of their mouth so they can reach their nose to the string.  While this idea may seem good in achieving a secondary reference point it often causes many more issues than the one problem it solves. 

Many of these shooters have made the change from a longer axle-to-axle bow to one much shorter.  They focus so much on the secondary point of reference that their anchor point is floating at a set distance.  Then in a fit of madness they exclaim that their new bow just doesn’t shoot as well as the old one.  But it is rarely the bow at fault.  It is usually the primary anchor (or lack thereof) that is to blame.

There is a reason the tip of the nose is considered a “Secondary Reference” and not the “Primary Anchor” point.  A secondary reference helps maintain consistency in left/right grouping and the consistency of the head in relation to the bow, but it has no structure to maintain a vertical anchor.  Dropping your anchor to a solid reference on the jaw bone is one of the most advantageous little things you can do for your consistency.  And best of all…this little thing is absolutely free!

There is really no set-in-stone method of where and how to anchor.  As long as it is solid and repeatable is all that really matters.  The jaw bone is easily defined even with gloves or a hand numb from the cold.  My personal preference with an index finger release is to cup the jaw bone in the gap between the thumb and index finger.  With a T-Handle release I prefer to rotate my thumb down and place the gap between the index knuckle and the middle knuckle hard into the jaw bone.  Before going to a D-Loop I shot a Wynn glove type of release that would allow me to shoot with my middle finger.  Trigger travel was horrible with this release, but I was able to use the same rock solid index/middle anchor as I have with my target T-Handle release.  That combination put a lot of dead animals on the wall and still does put all the wife’s animals in the freezer.

One of the fringe benefits of this lower anchor point is that it raises the peep sight.  This in turn raises the sight bracket.  And when that happens you have more room between the pin guard and the arrow.  This does two things: 
#1 - It allows you to have longer sight marks sometimes reaching as much as 120+ yards.  That leads to some exceptionally fun and beneficial practice .
#2 – The increased distance between the sight and the arrow keeps clanging of the arrow to a minimum.  When those excited hands get a little shaky in the presence of a trophy with keen hearing that can be a real benefit!

Once you find that perfect solid anchor then you can worry about second reference points.  You don’t want to lengthen the draw length as it relates to the position of your arm.  However, you can lengthen the draw length by shortening the D-Loop or using a release with a more forward mounted trigger.  On my own short bows I end up doing both by shooting the Carter Quickie release, a D-Loop as short as possible without allowing interference between the arrow nock and the release hook, and I go even further by placing the trigger as deep into the hand as possible while still allowing my finger to be placed behind it during draw.  This will usually give me ¼ to ½” more draw length without effecting my form or adding tension to my shoulders.

There are other forms of secondary reference points as well.  The most popular of which is the use of a kisser button.  Archers have been using kisser buttons for longer than I have been shooting a bow.  They are very effective and most are easy to install.  There are small ones, large ones and even kissers made from a simple short serving of thread with a nock set crimped on.  A person could even use a kisser up the string to contact the nose if they should so desire.  Just be sure to tie them in place very well as they will slip easily if not located over some serving thread or tied into place with some attention to detail.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: steeliedrew on June 01, 2015, 10:49:26 AM
RadSav,

I've been shooting with the string to the very tip of my nose for almost 4 years now.  I'm going to have to anylize everything again.  haha

For reference, I shoot a 33" axle to axle bow.  Care to enlighten us on what a "short bow" is exactly? :hello:

Thanks for the knowledge.

Drew
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 01, 2015, 11:38:57 AM
RadSav,
For reference, I shoot a 33" axle to axle bow.  Care to enlighten us on what a "short bow" is exactly? :hello:

Depends on the height of the shooter!

Myself, I rate anything over 40" as long, anything under 36" to be short and anything under 30" ridiculous. ;)

My wife with her 24.5" draw length rates bows under 30" short and sweet, 36" bows long and clunky and 40" bows ridiculous. :chuckle:

As an engineer I see 40" bows as pretty sweet, 36" bows dang near perfect and anything under 32" a mechanical nightmare! :o
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 01, 2015, 12:13:56 PM
I like to keep my bows right around the 35 ATA length if I can. 
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: whacker1 on June 01, 2015, 12:29:41 PM
Love it, tagging along to see what I can retain and return to retain more.

Thank you
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Band on June 01, 2015, 12:46:43 PM
As an engineer I see 40" bows as pretty sweet, 36" bows dang near perfect and anything under 32" a mechanical nightmare! :o
I'll bet I'm not the only one who dropped everything they were doing to go measure their bow. :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 01, 2015, 06:08:11 PM
I've had two 30" bows in here recently for some custom strings and tuning.  I don't know why I even bother telling friends I will work on these bows.  After a few days of playing with them the same thing happens.  I grab the hair on my head, scream in frustration and yell "I hate these F*&#@ng things!!" 

PSE single cam bows with their asymmetric idler wheel are about the only ones I can tolerate.  My Bear Assault, which I shoot very well (avatar), is 31" and I had to put PSE's idler wheel on it before I could handle the mental anguish. Even building a decent looking string on these short bows is a major challenge.

The wife absolutely loves her Hoyt Kobalt and it's 28" A2A.  And of course she tears up strings faster than I can find the time to make them.  I keep buying her faster bows, lighter bows, longer bows, more expensive bows, prettier bows and all she wants is to shoot her little Kobalt.  String is almost all serving, the bottom cam leans like the Tower of Pisa, timing has to be absolutely dead nuts perfect and yet she shoots the thing Crazy Good...pisa me off but good!  I know her Bear bow shoots just as good, faster, quieter and never goes out of tune.  I know for certain her Hoyt twisted Carbon Pretzel with the horrendous block hubcaps shoots faster, quieter and has dang near zero lower cam lean.  I'm beginning to think, other than the fantastic grip, the only reason she likes the Kobalt is that she knows it drives me nuts. 

I'd like to get her to use a shoot through cable system on that darn bow.  Then I could sleep at night :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on June 02, 2015, 06:31:09 PM
As an engineer I see 40" bows as pretty sweet, 36" bows dang near perfect and anything under 32" a mechanical nightmare! :o
I'll bet I'm not the only one who dropped everything they were doing to go measure their bow. :chuckle:
What is the Alien X A2A Measurement?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 02, 2015, 06:36:02 PM
What is the Alien X A2A Measurement?

I think the X was 31.5 and the XL was 33.25"  Would have to download Martins old catalogs to find out for sure per year of your bow.  But that is the length of the model years I had.  If I recall those were '12 model year.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on June 02, 2015, 06:47:02 PM
I think I bought mine in 2010
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: j_h_nimrod on June 08, 2015, 01:53:03 PM
This thread was well timed. After a long hiatus I am stepping back into the sport in a small way. Since I last shot everything has changed and I was a bit lost trying to figure it all out. This thread has helped a lot in my understanding and getting my bow properly tuned. Thanks, RadSav.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on June 12, 2015, 07:10:22 PM
I need arrow recommendations. Since I have been shooting my bow I have been using the green label quickstrike arrows that Steves Archery sells. I shoot a 2010 Rytera Alien X 70# and maxed out on the draw length (bow says 29'' I am 6'4") anywho, I am down to my last 3 arrows and want to get new ones. I think I want to change to something that would be a little more common to find in sporting good stores. The quickstrikes are pretty expensive and honestly hardly anyone carries them.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 12, 2015, 08:39:30 PM
If Steve set you up with that bow I doubt it is still set at 29"  -  6' 4" is usually between 30 and 30.5".  Why don't we measure for "True Draw Length" first.  Draw the bow back and have someone mark the shaft at the plunger hole.  Then measure the arrow from the crotch (bottom of the saddle) to the mark.  That will be the bows "True Draw" length.  Take that number and add 1.75" and you have the bows AMO draw length.  From there we can be more qualified and accurate with recommendations.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: scoutdog346 on June 13, 2015, 07:15:54 AM
Radsav where is ur shop?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 20, 2015, 03:33:48 AM
Old Bows and New Strings  (Part 1 of 2):

I had originally planned on this little segment to be about sleeves and collars.  It is a little thing that needs some attention as even slight pressure against a collar or bow arm sleeve can effect the shot drastically.  But, I have been seeing a lot of bowhunters selling one bow to buy another.  I've also been noticing quite a few hunters with no backup string for the one bow they do have.  IMO these are both mistakes that waste valuable time in the field.  So I thought maybe "Old Bows and New Strings" should take priority as we close in on a new season.

When I am getting ready for a hunt one of the very first things I pack is a back-up bow.  In most cases this bow shares a common arrow, exact same draw length, peep location, draw weight and usually shares the same quiver (to save on space) as my primary bow.  In many cases they are the exact same bow as I do like to buy everything I shoot well in twos (usually one in black and another in camo).


1984 - My friend Roger and I drive all night from Lincoln City, OR to Sumpter, OR for a long awaited elk hunt.  Our plan is to go light saving lots of room for meat on the return home.  We plan to both sleep in the back of the Datsun pickup just out of town.  As usual I tried to get every piece of gear I needed into a large cooler.  That way I could pull into camp, unload one item that I could leave outside, and then place my bow in the cab for the night.  Roger's gear was in a duffle bag, a few grocery bags and no bow case for his bow.  So when packing gear I made the decision to leave the backup bow six hours away at home.

All went as planned and other than having a hard time finding comfort with two men trying to keep their distance from one another in the back of a small truck all was good.  Next morning I fixed breakfast as Roger put all the gear in the truck and off we went.  I heard something slide across the top of the pickup as we turned onto the main road but I thought little about it.  As we came close to the turnoff I said, "You probably want to get your bow up front as shooting light is only a few minutes away."  Oh my!  The amount of foul language coming from his mouth I instantly knew something was wrong..."My (^*&* bow!!", he says, "I left it on top of the @#%^( truck!!"

I did my best Duke Boys impression as I raced back to where I had heard it fall off the roof.  We only passed one truck, a logging truck, so our hopes were high it would be laying on the side of the road when we got there.  When we did get there is was on the side of the road...and in the middle of the road...and in the ditch...and on the other side of the road!  I don't think that loaded logger missed a single tire running over that thing.  It was destroyed beyond the definition of destroyed!! 

As we were picking up the pieces my other hunting partner Bone drives by.  He kindly stops and helps us pick everything up.  I tell Roger, "I've killed enough elk I'm not worried about being the caller as long as we trade my bow back and forth throughout the trip."  That put Roger in a better mood. 

I was still tired from all the driving when we got to our spot so I told Bone and Roger where to go, how to hunt this draw and that I was going to take a nap and would have some hot grub for them when they came back for lunch.  Roger takes a few shots with my bow, tells me he likes it better than his anyway and off they go!

I wake up about four hours later, break out the camp stove and get a head start on some corn beef hash.  I hear a bugle from behind me and don't pay it much never mind.  Just the guys working their way back.  As the bugles get closer I start to thinking Roger has gotten a whole heck of a lot better at bugling!  At 50 yards away I know for certain I'm on the path of a bull elk looking for some trouble.  The bull walks right down the middle of the spur road stopping every 30 yards or so to bugle.  Not wanting to spook him I try to stay hidden in the trees as he stops at the truck to sniff the cooking hash, look in the windows and continue on his way.  If only I had made a spear I could probably have killed that bull :chuckle: :chuckle:

If you hunt long enough accidents are going to happen.  The best way I know to recover from an equipment accident and get back in the field is to have a back up bow.  And for me the best backup is one you know well and shoot well.  That's usually your old bow!  Resale value is not very high on a bow, trade-in value is even worse.  So don't be so quick to sell or give away your bow when you upgrade.  Even an old bow is better than a broken one!!  IMO that's cheap hunt insurance!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 20, 2015, 04:43:10 AM
Old Bows and New Strings  (Part 2 of 2):

So what do you do if you have only one bow and a second bow is not in the budget?

If a back up bow is not in the budget you should look at the parts of the bow that most often fail in the woods.  You should also look at the things that take the most time to get tuned when replacements are needed.  Middle of a hunt is not the time to be trying to tune arrows, rests and strings.  So in those odd occations where I am traveling and do not take a second bow I always have an extra tuned rest, an already sighted in second sight and a set of used bowstring and cables.  These are the three things that tend to get cut or broken during the season.

This means that at least 30 days before the season you need to buy a new string for your bow!  Make sure to tell the shop doing the work that you want to save the old string.  Also let them know it is important for them to keep the old string in the exact same condition it was when they took it off the bow - same amount of twists, same peep and silencer position...everything!  The 30 days should give you enough time to shoot the new string in and get everything perfect. 

The MOST important part of this is to absolutely be certain that the old string was tuned perfect and you do not move the arrow rest when tuning your arrow flight with the new string.  You should also be sure to slide the peep when setting the first pin on the bow instead of moving the pin if at all possible. This way if you do happen to damage the string in the field you can go to the nearest shop, have the old string put on and be back in the woods before the evening hunt or next mornings hunt.  New strings may change the further pins or pin settings, but as long as you have the first pin set you are at least back to hunting even if your range has been limited to some extent.  You can fine tune the others as time allows!

Now here is why I like to buy things in twos and like Hairy Holes and Hostage rests when traveling!  In my pack I have a duplicate arrow rest set to the exact same setting as the one on the bow.  I can take off one, align marks on the riser, and shoot the other one dead on first shot.  I also have a second sight that has been sighted in and ready to go.  If I break a housing or even fibers on a pin I can just remove one and replace it with another.  I'm never out of action for more than a few minutes if I have a rest or sight failure on a hunt.  And don't forget the back up release!!!  An old crappy release that works is much better than one that is lost or broken.


1986 (I think) - First bowhunt with Duke Savora.  Knowing I had done some guiding work Duke wanted me to take him and a friend to the Oregon coast for some elk hunting.  He wasn't asking for a guided hunt, but wanted me to put them in some good country while I hunted myself.  I had just left shooting for Golden Eagle to start shooting for Jennings a month or two before the season started.  So I only had the one prototype UniStar.  If I broke the bow that was going to be it.  So I prepared for the worst and hoped for the best!

Opening morning I spot a nice bull working his way out of a clearing.  I had spotted the bull across a steep draw by glassing through some tall old growth timber.  My only chance for success was to run and cut him off.  So run I did!  I was hurdling deadfall and salal like an Olympic athlete.  The down hill path had me reaching the ragged edge of staying on course and complete destruction. 
As I cleared some salmon berries suddenly there was no ground beneath me...I had just jumped off a cliff :yike: 

I remember throwing the bow clear before I hit the rocks below.  At some point my Browning Magnum boots caught in a crack and ripped the sole off my left foot.  Lucky for me as that probably saved me from a badly broken leg.  When I was finally able to get air back in my lungs and wipe the blood from my eyes I realized my hunt was over for the morning.  The bow quiver was broken, all five arrows were broken, sight broken, the arrow rest was lost for ever and the bow string was being held by only a few strands.  I found the sole to my boot, strapped it to my foot with duct tape and limped my way back to camp.  I was sore, bruised and bloody, but nothing was broken on me or the main part of the bow.  And best of all I had no broadheads sticking out of my torso :o

The old teardrop cable bows were easy to replace the strings in the field so I didn't need a pro shop or a press.  I pulled the 3M tape off the back of a replacement rest and positioned it with the help of a bow square. Then replaced the sight, quiver, 2117 arrows and Savora Swept-Wing 4 blade broadheads.  Took three shots at 50 yards and all hit dead center...less than an hour and I was 100% back in business!  So I took some Tylox and passed out until everyone returned back to camp and woke me up thinking I had killed an elk due to all the blood!

That evening, wearing white sneakers, I killed a spike bull with two arrows at 70 yards.  Second arrow wasn't needed as the first had done it's job. But heck, if one is good two is even gooder :chuckle:  What could have been an accident that ended my hunt with the mentor of a lifetime instead ended in success!  All because I had taken the time to do the little things in preparation for the worst.  It wasn't my biggest bull, but it is certainly one of my most memorable!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lokidog on June 20, 2015, 09:41:22 AM
"I've also been noticing quite a few hunters with no backup string for the one bow they do have."

 
You talking to me?   :chuckle:

Where were y hunting in 86?  That was my first year elk hunting, I was in Coos Bay.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 20, 2015, 12:57:05 PM
Where were y hunting in 86?  That was my first year elk hunting, I was in Coos Bay.

We were between Sealion Caves and Yachats.

You talking to me?   :chuckle:

Had been thinking about this before our earlier conversation.  That just brought it back to the top of my priority list.  Timing was about right since now is the time bowhunters should start thinking of these things.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on June 20, 2015, 01:39:44 PM
Thanks for the reminder Radsav!  I have a spare set of strings just sitting here that I need to get installed and set-up.  Need to get out and put some splinters downrange and make sure the bow is dialed as it sits and then do that.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: elkslayer99 on June 20, 2015, 09:09:10 PM
tag
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: YoungGun9 on June 23, 2015, 11:01:01 PM
I love reading all your tips! Thanks for all the help :tup:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 24, 2015, 02:33:00 AM
Proper release fit:

"My name is RadSav and I have target panic."

It's been over 30 years since I contracted the awful affliction.  Too high of poundage, too long of draw length, too much undisciplined practice, too many pins/clutter on the sight, too much emphasis on holding solid on the spot, too much anticipation of the shot...hard to point at one thing as the straw that broke the camels back.  But, after years of fighting, working and study I do know for certain that their are specific triggers that allow it to get out of control and consume me once again.  None bigger than sight clutter and anticipation of the shot. 

Fortunately both are easy to address.  To be clear there are no cures for target panic.  But, by eliminating triggers and poor habits it can be managed.  And by avoiding poor behavior those who have yet to be bitten can hopefully avoid it.  Both afflicted and non-afflicted archers can experience great success and improve performance by addressing these little things.

The sight clutter is a simple fix by shooting a single or triple pin slider.  Nothing special to it.  Just simply replace the seven pin sight with a less cluttered slider and give the possessed abomination away...preferably to someone you hate!!  Problem solved. :chuckle:

Anticipation of the shot takes a bit more effort.  And the most important thing to address here is to get your release sized and fit properly to your hand and fingers.  Doesn't matter whether you are shooting a wrist strap or a T-Handle release - proper trigger position is going to make or break anticipation.

I do not know how many times I've read a Randy Ulmer article where he's mentioned "Surprise Release".  It's been a good number of them, for sure.  And after more than 30 years of fighting my demons I have to admit Ulmer's term is the best.  This has nothing to do with Lock Time, Trigger Travel, Trigger Pull or so many other common terms about whose release is best and why.  It is about holding the release in such a way that you find yourself Surprised when it goes off.  And that only happens when you have a back tension, true tension or any release placed in the less sensitive area of the hand or fingers.

In my early years of shooting releases for hunting I started to notice that even though I carried a wrist strap most often more of my kills were when I had a hand held release.  I also started to notice that when I did take an animal with the wrist strap release the shot placement was almost never as good as it was with my hand held releases.  That all changed after meeting Randy Ulmer for the first time.  He was kind enough to spend about five minutes with me one day at some random event.  And like a palm reader showed me where my release should be located in the hand and how I should trigger the shot.  Probably the same as he had done for hundreds of archers before.  All of whom I can believe were transformed into better archers on their given day!

On any given hunt I might be shooting a T-Handle release or a Wrist Strap release.  I enjoy both, have been successful with both and find both to be just what I need when I have them in hand.  Set up the way they are I never really pull the trigger on either.  I find I shoot the T-Handle as a Back Tension release and I shoot the Wrist Strap as a True Tension release.  It's all made possible by proper fit.

Wrist strap releases are the more difficult as you need to have the strap set tight enough that the release head can return to a repeatable position.  The head has to be far enough forward as to allow the finger to be placed behind the trigger during draw as a safety feature.  Then the release must not be out too far as to be placed at the tip where you are the most sensitive and the tendency to anticipate the shot and punch the trigger.  When the top of the trigger is placed in the crease of the knuckle closest to the palm you now have it in the least sensitive part of the finger, you have almost completely eliminated the ability to punch the trigger and if you pay very close attention you have also given yourself the ability to fire the release by simply wrapping your finger around the trigger then increasing the tension on the strap itself (True Tension style).

It is important to have two releases in you bag.  I keep three identical releases in mine.  One set for shooting with no glove on, one for shooting with a lightweight glove, and yet another for shooting with a winter glove on.  Each marked clearly.  Each sized and fitted for use with whatever hand wear the weather conditions require.  You can get away with just one, but you want to be sure to anticipate in field changes as the need arises.  In doing so marking the adjustments in such a way that they do not get rubbed off and adjustments can be made quickly.  I personally like the Tarantula wrist strap option on the Carter Quickie!  Makes adjustments easy, repeatable and they never budge once set.


Most of the T-Handle releases I use are target style and not hunting style.  So most of the time the adjustments are easier.  Some hunting releases can be modified though.  My favorites in the Hunting category would be the Tru-Ball Fang, Champ, and my favorite the Max Pro.  Max Pro is basically the Boss X target release without the cocking lever.  I've killed a few freezers full of animals with the Boss X but the Max Pro is quieter and faster on follow up shots.

On T-Handle releases the very first thing I do is remove the thumb post and toss it in the trash.  I see guys all the time putting the very tip of their thumb on that darn thing.  For some reason thinking that if they can contact the knurled knob with the absolute peak of sensitivity on their thumb it will somehow improve the shot.  And it does look cool so  :dunno:  However, it is my belief if you want to be the cool kid in the hunting lodge horns rule the roost!  And shooting with the tip of your finger or the tip of your thumb isn't going to improve your scores or your hunting odds.

Once the knurled knob is removed you should be able to place the trigger/plunger all the way down into the base of the thumb.  The tip of the thumb then resting on the end of the release.  To fire the trigger you either rotate with back tension or rotate with your pinky.  As the release rotates the plunger is pressed into the base of the thumb and the release goes off.  If done right this almost guarantees you that Surprise Release.



I'll try to dig out some pictures of releases I use an how they are set.  Might take me a few days. 

Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 24, 2015, 02:58:33 AM
A couple poor pics with the cell phone showing position I prefer with the wrist strap release. 

Top relaxed as it rides in my hand / Middle as it usually is when attached to the D-Loop / Bottom where the release ends up with tension
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 25, 2015, 02:43:16 AM
Here is another crummy cell phone pic.  Under tension the release is much further out on the fingers and the plunger is slightly further out on the thumb.  But at least you can get the idea of how you can rotate the plunger into the less sensitive area of the thumb using either the pinky or back tension.  Also note how the knurled knob has been removed!

This is a Carter Attraction release that I use as a practice release only.  It can be shot as a true tension release or as a thumb release with just a simple Allen wrench adjustment.  For those, like me, who are always challenged by the affliction of target panic I can not recommend this release highly enough.  Every time I feel that I'm loosing my battles with TP I pick up this release and hit the range.  After a few weeks worth of work with this release I've usually got things back under control.  It's always a battle, but this really does help me get the upper hand.

Once I have an opportunity to get someone to take some pictures at full draw I'll edit this section with more detailed/real situational type photos. I haven't yet pulled my Tru-Ball hunting releases out of the pack from last season so I'll include those then.  For now I hope these one handed phone pictures can give you enough ideas that your imagination can fill in the blanks.  I apologies for not having the better pics available before posting.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 25, 2015, 06:11:34 AM
Warm Up Blind:

Most new bowhunters struggle with accuracy in the field even though the claims of pie plate sized groups at 100 yards in common amongst internet sites.  While much of those claims are "Once In Awhile" groups and not every day groups the fact remains that new bowhunters struggle shooting animals with that one and only chance.  Give them an opportunity to warm up and most are more than adequate shooters.  In my opinion this is because most new archers have not yet developed consistent repeatable mechanics.  Without proper development of shot mechanics shooters must warm into a rhythm as their shooting sessions progress.  A luxury we don't get in the field.

Your shot execution and form needs to become ingrained into the subconscious.  From the point you draw the bow to the point at which the arrow leaves the bow needs to become second nature.  Once a bowhunter is able to reach this point then that first shot no longer needs to be forced.  Rather the execution can be allowed to just happen and all your conscious mind needs to worry about is using the right pin, picking a spot and allowing that pin to float in the zone until the arrow is on it's way.

The problem with trying to develop this during regular visits to the range is that we enjoy shooting.  Since we enjoy it so much we tend to over indulge and shoot long after our muscles and mind can be consistent.  So the mind starts off confused, then picks up on the successes of the middle session and then that positive feedback is largely lost with the mistakes we make during the fatigue filled final moments of our shooting session.  How can the mind understand what is good mechanics input and what is bad mechanics input?  It can't!  And so we continue to develop a confused subconscious that must constantly adjust over time.

Luckily, if we eliminate visual distractions, we can tell our brain when to choose the most relevant input.  Warming Up Blind can seem like such a little thing, but it really does make a big difference in how the brain receives shot mechanics input.  It's sort of like putting a large fluorescent file at the front of the subconscious drawer.  Makes all the good stuff easiest to find and reference!

For me Warming Up Blind means shooting my first dozen arrows of the day with my eyes closed.  I stand only a few yards away from the target and execute each shot from finding my anchor through proper form, proper back tension, proper release and proper follow through.  All executed with my eyes closed.  No worrying about aiming.  No worrying about groups.  Everything revolves around performing the perfect progression of shot mechanics. 

One of the most important things is to take your time!!  You won't get extra credit for speed.  So your only concern should be to break all the elements of a shot down one by one.  And when you know you have executed the perfect shot...keep your eyes closed and just relish in the after glow for a few long moments.  In those moments of ecstasy the mind knows you done good.  It knows that is an experience it wants to repeat.  Allow it to fully sink in so your subconscious mind becomes addicted to the euphoria of the well executed shot.  After a while it will want to make sure that is the way shot #1 and shot #100 should feel.  No more confusion, no more need to find a rhythm and no more need to validate the little mistakes we make later on during open practice.

Once those proper fundamentals become second nature you can get good shots off faster too!  You no longer need to think about how to make the shot.  Simply find the right pin, find a small spot to aim at, float the pin in that zone and let the rest just happen.  For me there is no better feeling in the world than experiencing life in slow motion during a perfectly executed shot.  It's as if the world stops spinning for just a moment and everything around you just falls into place.  After what seems like minutes the arrow hits and time races forward to catch up to reality.  Once you experience it you will never forget the feeling.  It's truly wonderful!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: headshot5 on June 25, 2015, 06:28:37 AM
Sound advice!  Thanks once again Rad. 
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 25, 2015, 07:01:53 AM
RadSav, you are the man.  Anybody who hunts archery and who isn't on this thread is wrong  :tup:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 25, 2015, 08:51:18 AM
Side track...

How many of you have experienced slow motion during a perfectly executed shot?

I remember my first time!  2X2 blacktail buck.  35 yards up hill.  About 7 a.m. on a prefect cool late August morning.  He was on the edge of a field looking down into the trees where I was shadowing him.  I was shooting a Jennings Unistar, Savora Cam-Shaft 2117 arrows, 4 blade Swept-Wing broadheads, three five inch natural Barred feathers, HuntMaster 2000 rest, Fine-Line sight, Fine-Line peep, Golden Eagle stabilizer, two piece Pegasus four arrow quiver and a Wynn Freeflite release.

I remember the 30 yard pin floating dead center on his chest.  I remember feeling my thumb rolling around my neck before I realized the string jumping forward.  I could practically count the rotation of the fletching as the arrow climbed up the hill.  I remember the bucks eyes were focused on the arrow as it rose up to him.  His muscles went tight just before the arrow disappeared into his chest.  I remember the bow jumping straight forward, the wrist sling coming tight and the bow rotating limb forward as if my hand had been the axle of a windmill.  And most of all I remember the silence.  As if in some sort of time warp vacuum there was absolutely no noise at all.

The slow motion continued as the buck turned and completed his first jump.  Then both time and audio rushed forward as if spreading from my chest outward.  Starting slow and hitting full throttle as it reached the fleeting deer.  It must have created some sort of cosmic blast wave as the young buck went down in a cloud of dust as this wave of rushing time passed him.  I rolled back on my heals, expelled a full breath and asked myself, "Did that just happen?" 

I had never experienced post shot shakes before that day.  I remember finding it difficult to make my way up the hill as the knee knocking and heart pounding robbed my strength and coordination.  What a wonderful feeling that was!



Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 25, 2015, 09:25:13 AM
 My first archery kill was a whitetail a couple years back.  It was a blur until that moment the pin floated right behind the shoulder.  I knew he'd drop at the shot so I held low.  I remember the 40 pin floating over the shadow behind his shoulder.  I remember the bow snapping and watching the lime green vanes slowly stabilize.  Then like clockwork, like I'd predicted, he dropped about 8 inches and the arrow buried itself behind his shoulder.  He tried to run uphill but slipped and stumbled, turned to run the other way and just fell in a pile.  Quickest kill I've seen.

Last spring I killed a tom with my bow.  Called in to 32 yards.  I felt my heart pounding in my ears and I thought my bow was broken because I pulled 71# but it felt like 20#  The tom spun in a circle, full strut and I drew while his fan obstructed his view of me.  I fixated on a big red nodule above his beard.  He was facing me directly.  I placed the 30 yard pin only high enough to where I could still see that red dot on his neck.  When I shot I remember his feathers retreating and him crouching down to dash away.  The arrow still found it's mark, he took it through the throat, I saw the arrow ping-pinging away behind him.  He jumped straight up 10' into the air in slow motion and then flapped a huge dust cloud in the morning light.

Last year I spotted a bull elk at 112 yards.  He was a small 2x3 but in the NE he might as well have been a 7x7 to me.  It was about an hour until dark.  Pouring rain but the horizon was clear and golden.  One of those strange phenomenon with lighting that makes everything darker but more vivid.  His black mane and buff body were glowing on the hillside above me.  He'd seen my movement but acted more curious than alerted.  I slowly shifted behind a tree and pulled an arrow.  It fell of the string $%^$@*@*!  It clanged on some rocks and I prayed in the wind and rain he hadn't heard the strange sound.  I picked it up and waited a few moments to let out a cow call.  I peeked behind this burnt pine and saw him picking his way along the trees...looking for the sound source.  OMG!  He's actually falling for it.  I hit the call again, a few times...pleading.  From this point forward I remember it all in slow motion.  He weaved through the trees and let out a little squeal and grunt at 67 yards but wouldn't move.  It was hours that I watched him stand there.  Probably only a few seconds.  Then he committed.  He ran at me!  I will never know how I prepared for the shot as he ran straight at me.  I drew and shot as he ran just out of arms-length from me.  It was surreal.  He ran up the hill and stared back down for a few minutes.  He was streaming from a deadly (albeit far back) hit.  He then walked away in the timber.  Walked, never ran.  I walked behind him a few hundred yards.  It was the most touching and bizarre experience of my hunting career.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: kentrek on June 25, 2015, 12:17:12 PM
Lots of these stories are familiar....I've for got how many times I've shot with a rifle more then a fwe times ! Even last year's whitetail I had one extra empty laying on the ground....more then a couple occasions I won't remember taking off the safety!  Once with a musket I forgot which way the elk was facing....back at the house telling the story my dad was a bit confused  :chuckle:

Had some archery shots that have time nearly stop....a 18 yard shot that I watched the bull turn and roll away before my arrow got there....almost seems like I can remember my string wobbling around...but split seconds later it's amazing how fast everything goes and all of a sudden I can hear noise again !! Things go quite when my pins are finding there spot

Also pretty sure I've forgot to breath on my 2013 bull....it was next level focus I guess  :dunno:

Great thread
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2015, 12:35:09 AM
Why do I shoot Low at close range and High at long range?  #1 of 2


..."I don't understand it", the guy says to me, "I had a good rangefinder reading, the bull just stood there until the arrow hit and the shot felt great!  How could I have shot so high?"

..."He was so close!", the hunter tells me, "So close I knew I could just center punch the heart.  But the shot struck him extremely low and now I've been blood trailing for hours.  I'm thinking of giving up this archery stuff!"


Sound familiar?  These are actual stories from guys I met in the field.  Both after 2004.  Stories like this repeat often.  It is concerning that they seem to be multiplying at a rather accelerated rate with the popularity of the round pin guard.  So much so that I have begun preaching the use of single pin or triple pin slider sights more than ever before.  It really has nothing to do with the sight itself, but rather the way hunters use them in the field.  The popular trend in centering the pin guard in the peep creating so many confusions and field troubles.  Add to this the crazy notion of needing seven pins when hunting really adds to the margin of error. 

I was there myself in 2006.  Three friends and myself spending the night in the woods following drop after drop of blood looking for an elk that should have been dead within seconds of an easy shot.  Transfer blood all high on the branches told us my shot had gone high.  But, as good stewards we crawled and stumbled forward in the hot September darkness.  Hoping to get lucky and find my elk before the early season heat turned it into sour coyote bait.  Everyone's time wasted, blood spilled, muscles bruised, equipment lost...all for nothing. 

But I was lucky!  The next day while glassing across the canyon I was able to identify the same elk feeding together with his harem.  Peace of mind could replace that sick feeling in the pit of the stomach.  The nightmares could stop.  The constant images of a slow death and rotting flesh could once more be turned into plans for another battle on another day.  Besides a long gash across his back and the blackness bearing witness of a flesh wound he was just fine.  Only thing on his mind was grabbing small amounts of vegetation and routinely checking his cows urine for signs of possible breeding acceptance.  I still felt horrible, but at least that night I was able to sleep knowing the ravens and coyotes had to find other sources of sustenance.

Earlier that year I had decided maybe everyone was right.  Maybe I was "Old School" and needed to learn the "Modern Way."  It ended up being the year I changed they way I diagnosed missed shots in the field.  Prior to that year most long shots that went high and short shots that went low were thought to be form related issues.  And in the years prior to 2002 they largely were.  High shots at known yardage were putting too much heal into the grip, punching the release or dropping the draw arm elbow.  Low shots at known distances were collapse of back tension, watching the arrow and lack of follow-thru.  That year taught me that everything was changing.  And that the "Modern Way" wasn't necessary a good thing!!!

For the most part prior to 2002 our peep sights were small.  We looked through them and not at them. Our pin guards were rectangle in shape.  When we shot - the appropriate pin was our center of focus, our minds could be at rest, our focus could be uncluttered, and our bodies could be allowed to simply do what was natural human nature.  When we made a shot we allowed our minds instinctive nature to center things on it's own.  Our only focus was on the pin and our peripheral focus was on knowing where on the target that pin was floating.  The only un-natural thing about the shot was concentrating on the pin rather than the target.  For those who chose to focus on the target it still had little effect on our ability to hit high and low.

Note: Modern technology has changed where our point of focus is to some degree.  Lighted and fiber pins have really opened the door to allowing us to focus on the target more and less on the pin.  There is really no set-in-stone point of focus anymore.   Military and competition rifle shooters will likely perform best focused on the pin while most new bowhunters likely do better focusing on the target. I have found with these new pins I focus more and more on the target since my vision and depth of field isn't what it used to be!  That was tough thing to accept after being trained to shoot by an old marine sniper.  Either way, don't worry about it too much.  Just take a little time and find what works best for you.

I have never been a premier target shooter like so many of my friends.  But for some odd reason those guys, who were obviously better shots than I, had started to struggle more and more in hunting situations.  There was some little thing that I possessed that swung the odds in my favor while hunting.  We always assumed it was that I never get very excited prior to a shot.  Maybe it was that I had spent so much time in the presence of wildlife I was just able to shoot at relaxed animals where they didn't always have that luxury.  Or maybe, as was the common consensus, that I just had a knack for knowing when to shoot and when not to. :dunno: 

It is my honest and deepest belief that in that 2006 season, after my failure to kill that bull, we finally broke the code and figured it out.  It ended up being such a simple little thing that my 3-D friends refused to believe it could make a difference.  But one by one I talked most into giving my theory a try.  As success rose some still refused to believe it was my theory of human nature.  Instead giving credit to advances in equipment.  Either way, I'm just glad we can sit around a fire these days and share success stories instead of the wounded ones that got away stories!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2015, 02:05:35 AM
Why do I shoot Low at close range and High at long range?  #2 of 2


Though I like to call this little thing "Human Nature - The Theory of Success" to make it sound important enough for reluctant target shooters to actually try it.  In all seriousness it is really nothing more than "Center the Pin"!


We as human beings have certain things that come natural.  Things we don't have to think about like breathing, pulling our hand away from a hot plate and smiling when we are happy.  Similarly our minds naturally track the simplicity of a straight line better than one curved.  We instinctively centers things in a circle.  And, we naturally fall back on instinct when startled, panicked or stressed.  These are the most basic laws of human nature.  To do otherwise takes conscious thought, discipline and dexterity.  We know these things to be true.  And our day to day lives benefit greatly by our instinctive nature.

We also know it to be true that when shooting a bow - tension and tightness robs accuracy.  When our form is perfect we need almost no tension to keep our balance.  We need no tightness in our shoulders, arms, wrists or hips.  We are more solid, more stable and actions are more repeatable when we are in a relaxed state.  Only keeping the minimum amount of tightness needed to draw, hold anchor, keep back tension, adjust for sight location and trigger the release.

So why is it we feel that adding stress to the brain is beneficial?  Somehow the modern method of sighting has decided that we can no longer shoot consistent by allowing our natural tendencies to center things in a circle and follow a straight line.  We try to focus on a peep sight close to our eye, line up that blurry image with another blurry circle, then bend our focus to an out of center pin, then bend focus one more time to line that off center pin with another distant blurry target.  All of it unnatural, all of it causing mental distress, all of it creating a virtual tension in the mind.  How can this tension be beneficial?  And most importantly, how can this be repeatable and reliable in moments of situational stress and panic?

We practice this process of ignoring human nature.  It gets easier and easier as time goes by.  We practice on the range under controlled conditions and find success with it under the controlled stress of competition.  And we succeed in this environment and believe it is better.  Our over-analytical behavior thinking "more is better!"  We fall into a trap of thinking we can consciously look at this while looking at that, while bending thought and vision to that, while lining all of this up with a further bending of that.  All because more points of reference, consciously manipulated, has got to be better than two?  For many on the target line that might actually be a resemblance of a truth.

But what happens in the field, in the heat of the moment, is so often different than on the target line.  We find ourselves startled, panicked, stressed in that situational moment of truth.  We find ourselves in a shooters version of "fight or flight".  And in that situation so many great target line shooters lose conscious focus and revert to the mind and bodies natural nature.  If at that moment your bow is sighted in using the convoluted, focus bending, mind over instinct aiming method...you only have one single pin sighted in correctly.  That being the one in the center!

When your instinctive nature over rides the mental chaos of the modern aiming process your short yardage pin gets centered in the peep and your long yardage pin gets centered in the peep.  Actually the whole dang lot of pins are going to be centered in the peep if they are the ones being used to aim.  When this happens the pins located above center will shoot low and the pins located below center will shoot high.  The further the pins are located from your sights center the larger the margin of error will be.

Single pin sliders are no more accurate than multiple pin sights.  However, the pin is always sighted in as the center pin regardless of yardage.  So even though you may have sighted in the bow using the mental chaos method and end up shooting in an instinctive nature you are still on target.  Thusly, if you have a three pin sight with the middle pin centered the margin of error between the two is less and shots can be much more effective than that of a five or seven pin model.

Good news is you do not need a different sight to handle those in field stress filled moments of excitement.  Just simply sight the bow in using the method that follows the body and minds natural nature...Center the Pin!  All you need to do is know you are looking through the peep and not the gaps above and below it, focus on the pin you need for that distance and let that pin float on the intended target while you execute the perfect shot.

This little thing might not help you tear up the target circuit.  But if you are like me and care more about putting meat in the freezer and horns on the wall it just might be your answer to shooting Low at close range and High at long range while hunting.  I, myself, will never center a sight guard ever again on a hunting bow!!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on June 26, 2015, 02:08:53 AM
Warm Up Blind:

Most new bowhunters struggle with accuracy in the field even though the claims of pie plate sized groups at 100 yards in common amongst internet sites.  While much of those claims are "Once In Awhile" groups and not every day groups the fact remains that new bowhunters struggle shooting animals with that one and only chance.  Give them an opportunity to warm up and most are more than adequate shooters.  In my opinion this is because most new archers have not yet developed consistent repeatable mechanics.  Without proper development of shot mechanics shooters must warm into a rhythm as their shooting sessions progress.  A luxury we don't get in the field.

Your shot execution and form needs to become ingrained into the subconscious.  From the point you draw the bow to the point at which the arrow leaves the bow needs to become second nature.  Once a bowhunter is able to reach this point then that first shot no longer needs to be forced.  Rather the execution can be allowed to just happen and all your conscious mind needs to worry about is using the right pin, picking a spot and allowing that pin to float in the zone until the arrow is on it's way.

The problem with trying to develop this during regular visits to the range is that we enjoy shooting.  Since we enjoy it so much we tend to over indulge and shoot long after our muscles and mind can be consistent.  So the mind starts off confused, then picks up on the successes of the middle session and then that positive feedback is largely lost with the mistakes we make during the fatigue filled final moments of our shooting session.  How can the mind understand what is good mechanics input and what is bad mechanics input?  It can't!  And so we continue to develop a confused subconscious that must constantly adjust over time.

Luckily, if we eliminate visual distractions, we can tell our brain when to choose the most relevant input.  Warming Up Blind can seem like such a little thing, but it really does make a big difference in how the brain receives shot mechanics input.  It's sort of like putting a large fluorescent file at the front of the subconscious drawer.  Makes all the good stuff easiest to find and reference!

For me Warming Up Blind means shooting my first dozen arrows of the day with my eyes closed.  I stand only a few yards away from the target and execute each shot from finding my anchor through proper form, proper back tension, proper release and proper follow through.  All executed with my eyes closed.  No worrying about aiming.  No worrying about groups.  Everything revolves around performing the perfect progression of shot mechanics. 

One of the most important things is to take your time!!  You won't get extra credit for speed.  So your only concern should be to break all the elements of a shot down one by one.  And when you know you have executed the perfect shot...keep your eyes closed and just relish in the after glow for a few long moments.  In those moments of ecstasy the mind knows you done good.  It knows that is an experience it wants to repeat.  Allow it to fully sink in so your subconscious mind becomes addicted to the euphoria of the well executed shot.  After a while it will want to make sure that is the way shot #1 and shot #100 should feel.  No more confusion, no more need to find a rhythm and no more need to validate the little mistakes we make later on during open practice.

Once those proper fundamentals become second nature you can get good shots off faster too!  You no longer need to think about how to make the shot.  Simply find the right pin, find a small spot to aim at, float the pin in that zone and let the rest just happen.  For me there is no better feeling in the world than experiencing life in slow motion during a perfectly executed shot.  It's as if the world stops spinning for just a moment and everything around you just falls into place.  After what seems like minutes the arrow hits and time races forward to catch up to reality.  Once you experience it you will never forget the feeling.  It's truly wonderful!
Thanks for putting this up 8) wow! Some light put on a few more of the why's. I used to always read some terry Wunderle in north american whitetail mag to get me back on track I'll have to incorporate this with my bare bale shooting. Thank you once again rad   
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 26, 2015, 08:00:06 AM
Rad, do you recommend those of us who are sticking to multiple pins focus on centering the pin?
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2015, 08:57:26 AM
Rad, do you recommend those of us who are sticking to multiple pins focus on centering the pin?

Think of it as friendly urging.  No real reason to change if you are shooting a single pin.   

Nice think about it for us aging bowhunters is the fact we can go back to shooting smaller peep sights too!  Not only does a 1/8, 5/32 or 3/16" aperture peep make it easier for our peripheral focus to find center...it also improves our depth of field.  An often over looked benefit of smaller peep apertures. I moved from the 7/32" aperture I'd used from 2000-2006 to the 5/32" on most bows.  Large enough to gather light and still still see my bubble - small enough to help see detail on a distant target.  Only bow I currently shoot that is different is the super short A2A Bear Assault where I shoot a 3/16" aperture.  The steeper string angle puts the peep further from my eye and the sight picture is about the same as my longer bows with the 5/32". 

Note:  The Bear Attack is the only bow I currently use with a five pin sight too.  My draw length is 28.5"
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2015, 09:13:35 AM
After the wife's multiple eye surgeries she switched from a 1/4" aperture to a 3/16" peep.  She is shooting really well! 

She told me last week she wanted to try shooting with a 5/32" to see if it would improve her vision even further.  With her limited low light vision we will need to do some tall timber/low light practice to see at which point the smaller apertures begin to limit her already limited daylight hours.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 26, 2015, 09:24:27 AM
Makes sense really  :tup: so far my checklist goes like this...

1)  Draw/anchor
2)  Level
3)  Center Peep on Sight
4)  Aim
5)  Squeeze

#3 could be rolled together with #4 and cut down time-wise if I'm looking through a smaller hole.  Does a smaller hole get more difficult in low light conditions?  Not that I'd EVER shoot an animal in low light conditions  :rolleyes: but you know, hypothetically.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2015, 10:55:46 AM
Does a smaller hole get more difficult in low light conditions? 

For myself - My eyes, my draw length, my anchor point...I have not noticed a difference with 5/32" or larger.  I did notice some with 1/8", but only in the darkest of timber in final minutes of legal light.

This brings up something I do during practice.  Part of my, "Expect the worst/Hope for the best" preparation.  When I shot my first bear my peep tubing broke as I pulled my bow up into my stand.  Didn't notice until I was ready to shoot :bash:  Luckily I was shooting fingers back then and just shot him instinctively.  Could have been much worse had I only practiced looking through the peep.

Peep tubing breaks, tubing posts break, strings rotate and debris finds it's way into aperture holes.  When you least expect problems Murphy always seems to pay a visit.  I now practice shooting both eyes open with a blacked out peep.  If I reach full draw and realize I can not look through my peep...no problem.  I know I can allow the left eye to take over and simply adjust my left right for the less dominant eye shot.  I'm not likely to take a long shot this way.  But I've practiced enough that shots 40 yards and under I feel very confident I can kill whatever big game animal I'm shooting at this way.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 26, 2015, 11:24:38 AM
Sweet  :tup:  I don't even use peep tubing.  Too many horror stories.  I know I'll have a string rotate eventually when a shooter is in range so I guess it's six of one and half a dozen t'other
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on June 26, 2015, 11:59:55 AM
Wow,
Such a great amount of info, specially these last few pages!

 :drool:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2015, 12:16:52 PM
Sweet  :tup:  I don't even use peep tubing.  Too many horror stories.  I know I'll have a string rotate eventually when a shooter is in range so I guess it's six of one and half a dozen t'other

For every tubing story I usually hear five "my peep rotated" stories.  And most tubing stories end with the admittance of old tubing.  For $0.75 I think I'd replace my tubing before hunting season ;) ;).  Only benefits to non-tubing peeps IMO are less glare and less noise.  BIG benefits for sure, but not the end of the world scenario most who have never used a tubing peep make it sound.

Here is my approach...set your tubing peep without tubing first.  Then if tubing breaks unexpectedly you are left with just another non-tubing peep.  Some impact height changes at long distance, but nothing that's going to end a hunt.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on June 26, 2015, 12:24:25 PM
I currently shoot with only one eye open.  Any tips or tricks I can try to help work on both eyes open?  Soon as I open the off eye I loose the sight picture.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: coachcw on June 26, 2015, 12:38:37 PM
It sounds like your off eye might be dominant , I know mine is so i just close it .
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: stromdiddily on June 26, 2015, 01:22:07 PM
Rad, it's mind boggling, the wealth of knowledge you possess and come here to share...really appreciate it.

 :brew:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on June 26, 2015, 01:25:37 PM
It sounds like your off eye might be dominant , I know mine is so i just close it .
Could very well be, I am one of those freaks that was Ambidextrous when I was young so my wiring is all sorts of messed up :jacked:..  Now I do sports (throw, shoot, kick etc) righty, but lefty for writing and fine motor skills. :bash:

Need to figure out a way to somehow get down to Vancouver and get some Radsav bootcamp training one of these days...
 :archery_smiley:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2015, 01:54:50 PM
Need to figure out a way to somehow get down to Vancouver and get some Radsav bootcamp training one of these days...
 :archery_smiley:

I lost my range when a relative passed away.  So no tutoring for a while until I find a new place.  I will let folks know once I do find the right property.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2015, 01:57:01 PM
I currently shoot with only one eye open.  Any tips or tricks I can try to help work on both eyes open?  Soon as I open the off eye I loose the sight picture.

Only trick I know is the wear dark sunglasses that allow you can remove one lens.  Frost a lens with steel wool if you need to.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 26, 2015, 02:18:31 PM
I can't shoot with glasses on.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on June 26, 2015, 02:20:37 PM
Same, nose piece blocks my sight thru peep

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2015, 02:44:21 PM
I can't shoot with glasses on.

Just wait!  You'll be getting old soon enough.  Then you will be just like me. :chuckle:

Same, nose piece blocks my sight thru peep

You need different glasses or a shorter draw length.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: wiremonkey on June 26, 2015, 04:19:15 PM
tag
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: earlmarne on June 26, 2015, 04:27:42 PM
may have to try this blind warm up.I can shoot some amazing groups sometimes but seems like every couple days I go out and shoot 60 where I had them stocking on the dot the day before I will be consistently 5 or 6 inches left, and then right, or a touch high or low.Always chasing my groups around
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on June 26, 2015, 04:57:44 PM
I've been trying to pick apart the mechanics of my shot process. When I do make a good shot I don't know what I just did too repeat it. & I seem to be more solid out @ 60 & 70yrds than I am @ 40 think I just need a run down on proper pin float execution     
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 26, 2015, 06:32:34 PM
I've been trying to pick apart the mechanics of my shot process. When I do make a good shot I don't know what I just did too repeat it. & I seem to be more solid out @ 60 & 70yrds than I am @ 40 think I just need a run down on proper pin float execution   

So are you wanting to pick apart shot mechanics or how to aim?  Seems like you are talking two different things. :dunno:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on June 26, 2015, 07:20:43 PM
I've been trying to pick apart the mechanics of my shot process. When I do make a good shot I don't know what I just did too repeat it. & I seem to be more solid out @ 60 & 70yrds than I am @ 40 think I just need a run down on proper pin float execution   

So are you wanting to pick apart shot mechanics or how to aim?  Seems like you are talking two different things. :dunno:
Think if I can get this pin float & when to take the shot properly down I'll finally be able to break this plateau & become a better archer but we are our own worst critic 
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 27, 2015, 12:36:18 AM
When I started shooting sights I just got worse and worse the more I practiced.  Sometime during the depths of my despair I was invited to a big archery event to talk bear hunting and while there I got to meet Dee Wilde (this was back when he and Dean Pridgen were tearing up the target circuit).  When I asked him why I was going down hill his answer was, "You are trying too hard to be perfect!"

...Whaaaaat???

Of course he was absolutely right!  I was trying so hard to hold the pin rock solid perfect on the spot my whole body was tense.  The more tense I got the more the pin would dance around.  The more the pin would dance around the harder I would try to hold solid.  The more I tried to hold solid the more tense I would become...  It eventually turned into a vicious ever multiplying circle of self destruction.  Eventually I started to punch the release, anticipate touching off the trigger as soon as the pin hit the center and all kinds of nasty bad habits.

I found that the only thing that needed to be rock solid was my focus.  Some how the mind and body teamed up to put the arrow wherever my focus was at the moment of the shot.  At least as long as my muscles remained relaxed, my core was passively rigid and my release and follow-thru was executed properly. 

You may be different, but I find trying to hit a spot or "X" is very difficult for me.  If I can shoot for the center of a circle the mind finds that comforting and natural.  Makes little difference if I'm focused on the pin or on the target.  I just want to have a circular zone and let the pin float in that zone.  Again, the minds natural tendency is to center things in a circle.  So don't try to force the pin into the center just let it find it's way.  Your subconscious will find center as you are concentrating on extension and getting the release to break. 

Just don't lose focus on the zone while concentrating on the extension.  Again this reiterates the importance of Blind Practice and getting your shot mechanics down to a subconscious level.  The conscious mind can do one thing well, but it does multiple things poorly.  Meanwhile the subconscious has a wide range of things it can do well simultaneously.  Let focus be that one conscious act and let the rest just happen!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 27, 2015, 12:49:05 AM
may have to try this blind warm up.I can shoot some amazing groups sometimes but seems like every couple days I go out and shoot 60 where I had them stocking on the dot the day before I will be consistently 5 or 6 inches left, and then right, or a touch high or low.Always chasing my groups around

You and my wife may be related :chuckle: :chuckle:  Trying to sight in her bow can be a lesson in futility! 

For her it is usually one of three things:

#1 - Inconsistent anchor point (Segment #5  "Lower Your Anchor")
#2 - Grip on the bow (Hand pressure/gripping the handle/tight wrist sling)
#3 - Lack of back tension (Segment #1 "Creep Tuning")


Here shortly I will get to the "Where is my next arrow" segment.  That will explain a possible forth.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: earlmarne on June 27, 2015, 09:57:55 AM
may have to try this blind warm up.I can shoot some amazing groups sometimes but seems like every couple days I go out and shoot 60 where I had them stocking on the dot the day before I will be consistently 5 or 6 inches left, and then right, or a touch high or low.Always chasing my groups around

You and my wife may be related :chuckle: :chuckle:  Trying to sight in her bow can be a lesson in futility! 

For her it is usually one of three things:

#1 - Inconsistent anchor point (Segment #5  "Lower Your Anchor")
#2 - Grip on the bow (Hand pressure/gripping the handle/tight wrist sling)
#3 - Lack of back tension (Segment #1 "Creep Tuning")


Here shortly I will get to the "Where is my next arrow" segment.  That will explain a possible forth.
After shooting last night I think it is all in tension in my hand.I have not moved my sight here in a week or so.Went n shot and was to the right on my first 3.Focused  on really relaxing that grip and my next couple groups piled right in there.
That stuff drives me nuts.I hate when my results are not repeatable though.We will see over the next couple days if I can keep em there.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: lamrith on June 27, 2015, 11:31:36 AM
may have to try this blind warm up.I can shoot some amazing groups sometimes but seems like every couple days I go out and shoot 60 where I had them stocking on the dot the day before I will be consistently 5 or 6 inches left, and then right, or a touch high or low.Always chasing my groups around

You and my wife may be related :chuckle: :chuckle:  Trying to sight in her bow can be a lesson in futility! 

For her it is usually one of three things:

#1 - Inconsistent anchor point (Segment #5  "Lower Your Anchor")
#2 - Grip on the bow (Hand pressure/gripping the handle/tight wrist sling)
#3 - Lack of back tension (Segment #1 "Creep Tuning")


Here shortly I will get to the "Where is my next arrow" segment.  That will explain a possible forth.
After shooting last night I think it is all in tension in my hand.I have not moved my sight here in a week or so.Went n shot and was to the right on my first 3.Focused  on really relaxing that grip and my next couple groups piled right in there.
That stuff drives me nuts.I hate when my results are not repeatable though.We will see over the next couple days if I can keep em there.
New to this myself and this may not work for you but it seems to for me...  When I started I was gripping like the bow was going to rip out of my hands and was all over the place.  I switched to open hold and was much better but struggled with inconsistency with that as well as I would pinch with my thumb or not hold my hand the same way on some sessions causing shots to be off session to session.  Deadi-on on Monday, left Tuesday, right Thursday..
:bash:

Smoene at a shop recommended I try this and it is working so far.  What I have started doing is for my bow hand just touching the tip of my pointer finger to the tip of my thumb.  Not pinching them together or gripping tight, just touching like making the "OK" sign and I let the other fingers just hang there not really touching the bow..  This acts as a physical reference and making sure my hand is shaped the same way each shot, almost like an anchor point for my bow hand.  I am much more confident now that when I set my anchor point, do that with my hand and touch my nose to the string the shot so going to go wherever the pin is held.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Special T on July 01, 2015, 01:08:04 PM
Just found this thread. Interesting and insightful.  2 points I want to make. Practice and video recording it are 2 things that improve a shooter. From talking with a couple of pro shops many shooters subsitute "tuning" for form practice. I witnessed a shooter come into a pro shop and asked for it to be tunned because the bow was shooting in consistant. The pro picked up the bow shot it wrong handed with too short of draw and put 3 arrows in the bullseye.
It made me think that every shop/club should own a hooter shooter. 2c

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on July 01, 2015, 01:42:46 PM
After picking up a bow after 20yrs that's one of the first lessons I learned was that it was me ie my form not the bow!!  I wish someone woulda told me I need to approach it as I was doing it for the first time
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on July 01, 2015, 06:30:09 PM
I can't shoot with glasses on.

Just wait!  You'll be getting old soon enough.  Then you will be just like me. :chuckle:

Same, nose piece blocks my sight thru peep

You need different glasses or a shorter draw length.
my glasses problem is always with thick framed Sun glasses.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on July 01, 2015, 07:32:07 PM
I don't think I have ever had a problem with shooting a bow with eyewear on. I do have that problem when shooting a rifle in the prone with a helmet and eyewear, I usually have to swipe the eyepro down my face to get a clear look at my front sight  :bash:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Vo2max on July 01, 2015, 08:38:32 PM
In regard to optimal hand-bow interface, back tension, floating the pin; I learned a huge lesson this afternoon... I've been shooting bows since I was 11yrs old and hunting since 14,
Now just shy of 39 yo... Was at range today dialing some new arrows and sight tape that RadSav took a lot of time helping me with (thanks again brother!). I was at 70yds and was all over the place with my group. I then went through the basics... "Bubble level, stiff arm, no true grip on the handle, press the the at eminence into the handle, pull the opposite elbow back, anchor, float my single pin up and onto the target.... Thwap! Winner, winner, chicken dinner! Amazing feeling to pinwheel the X and know why. Especially good after running the archery range (2.5) miles and then shooting long distances at a dot. Anyway, a small tweak one way or another, Inconsistencies with your anchor point, punching the trigger, not breathing (a whole other topic in and of itself) can create havoc. Dial those shooting techniques in now people...
The elk and deer would rather be dead quickly than to die a slow death resulting from being wounded I assure you.

We owe it to the game we hunt to be as accurate as possible and to know our limits.

Erik
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Todd_ID on July 16, 2015, 09:34:22 AM
Keep on going here RAD. This has helped plenty of folks a bunch.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: northcoast on July 16, 2015, 12:27:04 PM
my glasses problem is always with thick framed Sun glasses.

Sun glasses or beer goggles? :P
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on July 21, 2015, 07:16:43 PM
I dropped my bow off with Steve this morning, unfortunately due to spending almost all night watching a fire burn and making sure my friends place was packed up I woke up later than I wanted and didn't have time to learn anything from Steve. He is going to re-string my bow and hopefully help me find some new arrows.

---UPDATED---------------------------
Picked up my bow from Steve this Morning, he had it done by 5pm yesterday, he also found me a dozen arrows and got them cut to size fletched and inserts in, I am almost back in business. now to find a place to shoot the danged contraption. I was informed recently that the city of walla walla has a "Projectile Ordinance"
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on July 28, 2015, 03:15:24 AM
Peep Sight – Big or Small

It seems each week I receive a PM, email or letter asking me to suggest the proper peep aperture size for someone.  While it is almost impossible to pick a peep aperture out of thin air to work best for each archer there are some rules and guidelines that can help narrow the personal choice.  Of course if you are one of the growing masses that choose to shadow the sight guard worried about little else the choice is simple.  Just choose a little smaller or larger depending on what view you see with your current peep.  But if you have chosen to center the pin then peep aperture size can address many different issues besides just what we shadow.

Myself, I don’t care to shadow anything.  I prefer to look right through the peep when hunting and allow my minds corrective instinct to find center.  And when I was younger that was about all I needed to improve success.  I manufactured my first peep for personal use to be what I called .22 caliber.  It allowed maximum view in low light yet small enough for my mind to recognize it as round and find center.  But as I aged problems started to arise and I began to question whether I was using the right peep.  Luckily for me I had plenty to test and study my results with each.

What I found surprised me at first.  I had looked through the lens of conjecture along with so many others and did not recognize the facts.  As I compiled more data and more data it became difficult to ignore the evidence and follow the erroneous common consensus.   The answers were there!  All I had to do was open my mind and accept the science.  I felt pretty darn stupid when I finally let it all sink in.


How many times have you read or heard an older archer say, “My eyes aren’t what they used to be.  I need a bigger peep.”?  Well, I hear that a lot.  And I can honestly say now, “That is likely the wrong way to go!”


As we age or get thicker glasses we do begin to lose some of our night vision.  And if that were our only lying trouble the larger peep scenario would be correct.  But rarely is our low light vision through the peep our only challenge.  As we age we also lose definition and depth of field.  Both of which are made worse by increasing our peep aperture!

Like most aging archers I struggled most with the loss of my depth of field.  As the pin grew blurry I concentrated more on it.  As the target got blurry I struggled to concentrate on it.  After a while my brain got confused and I’d see three dots for every pin and two targets beyond the plethora of dots.  While I could tell early on which dot was brightest and which target was fullest it became more difficult as time went on and my eyes continued to deteriorate.  Eventually my target panic ran out of control and I tried to come to grips with how I would run an archery company when I couldn’t hunt with the bow any longer.

I dropped my favorite .22 caliber peep (by then known as our 7/32”) and went back to the 3/16” aperture.  I instantly saw improvement!  I then dropped the aperture size again to our 5/32” and all started to become right with the world again.  Suddenly the second target disappeared and all I had was one single blurry dot.  I could actually feel the tension in my head relax along with tension in my neck and shoulders that I didn’t realize had become tight as well.

Each time I dropped my aperture 1/32” I saw improvement to my depth of field and the clarity of my pin.  Had I been a 3-D shooter or someone that only hunts in wide open spaces in full light I likely would have settled in on a 3/32” aperture as the best for me.  Unfortunately, with my maturity spectacles I easily lost sight of targets in shadows.  I also had difficulty with target acquisition in low light under a heavy canopy.  So I worked my way back up in aperture size practicing in the last hour of shooting light in tall timber.  I didn’t find enough benefit to the 1/8” over the 5/32” to warrant choosing the 1/8” just yet.  But, it wouldn’t surprise me if a 1/8” is in my not too distant future.

My conclusion was that our eyes through a peep are like the image through a camera’s iris.  While the film will show far greater depth of field with a small iris opening sometimes we cannot gather enough light to show that detail in the resulting picture.  So we must sacrifice some depth if shooting in low light by opening up the iris to maximize light, definition and depth.  With an acceptable compromise we can be happy with the end result.

I know for me, those 2/32nds of an inch were the little things that changed my bowhunting future.  Maybe going larger or smaller could improve your success and enjoyment as well!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bowtechian on July 28, 2015, 05:10:55 AM
So what is the rule of thumb for your sight picture when your looking through the peep @ the sight? Always thought you we're supposed to just see the inside of the ring
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on July 28, 2015, 05:29:09 AM
So what is the rule of thumb for your sight picture when your looking through the peep @ the sight? Always thought you we're supposed to just see the inside of the ring

That seems to be the new wave of how to use a sight.  I do not attend that school of thought myself. (See previous topic: Why do I shoot Low at close range and High at long range?)  I could care less if my pin guard was round, square or triangle shaped.  I want the pin AND the target to be in the center of my focus.  Same as the mind wants it too!

I'm in no way telling people to change.  Just bring up the possibility that you may find yourself more successful in the woods if you center the pin.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on July 29, 2015, 04:40:02 PM
New question! I switched arrows from Quickstrikes to Vapors. Both arrows take an "H" nock. My Nocturnal nocks do not fit very tightly in the arrows, I took a regular nock and tried it in both my old and new arrows and it fit nice and snug, The Nocturnal nocks are so loose that you can easily pull the knock off just by pulling the arrow off the string. Is there any way to help them out to be a little tighter? I considered putting string wax on the nock but wasn't sure if this is a good Idea
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on July 29, 2015, 08:35:24 PM
New question! I switched arrows from Quickstrikes to Vapors. Both arrows take an "H" nock. My Nocturnal nocks do not fit very tightly in the arrows, I took a regular nock and tried it in both my old and new arrows and it fit nice and snug, The Nocturnal nocks are so loose that you can easily pull the knock off just by pulling the arrow off the string. Is there any way to help them out to be a little tighter? I considered putting string wax on the nock but wasn't sure if this is a good Idea

Easiest fix is to ditch the Nockturnals :tung:

But, if you have your heart set on lighted nocks I do have a solution.  Took quite a while before I found a fix for the old Carbon Express nocks that were too loose also.  The solution I came up with was dental tape.  I took four pieces of floss and fed them into the shaft and let them hang over the outside of the shaft.  Then simply pushed the nocks in.  Worked really well!  Another option is one a friend of mine did in Oregon.  He just glued them in with rubber/contact cement.  I have not done that, but he claims you can still remove broken nocks and the shafts clean up with alcohol and a gun cleaning brush.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on July 30, 2015, 08:40:55 PM
I have a horrible time seeing my arrow in flight, the lighted knocks will help me a little. I have the same problem even with golf balls off a tee
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on July 31, 2015, 03:29:30 AM
Where Is My Next Arrow!

As bowhunting season draws near archers start to increase their practice/shooting routines in hopes of hitting stride at the optimum moment.  But all too often archers hit a plateau or even experience a loss of consistency in the final two or three weeks before opening day.  Entering into their season with a loss of confidence and worried about when the opportunity for that one shot presents itself.

These little tortures are often a result of shooting and not practicing.  This culprit is so often over looked as a source of failure the archer never realizes it is happening.  All they know is their time and effort is not paying off.  They make last minute changes to their bow, release, sight, arrows, string, their rest…  All in an attempt to purchase a solution to a problem caused by no mechanical issue whatsoever!

The solution is so darn simple most students immediately claim, “That’s not it!” or “I’m not doing that!” when I advise them of the issue.  But if I show them a short blip of a video from my phone the response is usually, “Wholly cow.  I can’t believe I’m doing that!”  This Little Thing is what I refer to as - Where is my next arrow?



Shooting is important in the early stages of archery development.  Our muscle memory needs to become ingrained in the subconscious, our muscles need to strengthen and our trajectory needs to become ingrained into the mind’s eye.  But once those things are developed shooting leads to habits.  Unfortunately many of those habits are bad.  To avoid those bad habits we need to transition from Shooting to Practicing.  Especially in those days and weeks before hunting season!

Practicing means slowing things down – A LOT!  We want to focus on the individual motions.  Shooting each arrow one by one.  No longer are we in a nock the arrow, draw the bow, aim and shoot mode.  We want to break every single element down to its basic form.  Nock the arrow, then think about it.  Attach the hook to the D-Loop, think about it.  Breath, think about it.  Draw the bow and settle into our anchor in a single smooth motion, think about it...  And the deliberate step-by-step doesn’t stop when we touch off the release!  We need to be sure we take the time to think about each shot even after the arrow hits the target.  We don't get this luxury in the field so we need to take advantage at the range.

I like the last moment before I start the process over to be a series of questions to myself.  I ask, “Was that a good shot?  How did that feel?” Most importantly…wait for an honest answer!!  If my honest answer is, “No” then I review each step in the process and try to figure out where it went wrong.  I could care less where the arrow went or if I even know where it landed on the target.  I know if I made the right shot the arrow will be there.  My concern is whether I want to repeat as just completed or if I want to adjust the approach. 

What happens when we abandon practice and just shoot is that we rush.  We rush so much that we do not recognize the bad when it bites.  And worst of all we reach for the next arrow to shoot before we have finished the current shot.  For right handed shooters that breakdown usually results in strings going high left or flyers going low right.  Though complete random shotgun patterning can also result if it gets bad enough.

After watching hundreds of shooters I am willing to bet well over half break away from the shot early reaching for the next arrow.  Leaving the archer with only one arrow in a quiver representing their true form and accuracy.  That being their last arrow knowing they no longer need to find the next one! 

Archers that use a ground quiver on their draw arm side are usually bit the worst.  I believe the biggest disservice archery shops do to their customers is supply traffic cones and/or ground quivers on their range.  Besides being poor business when your business is to sell target quivers, field quivers, side quivers and bow quivers.  These free use ground quivers breed collapse in form and destructive habits.  Do yourself and your shop a favor and buy a quiver! (or two as will be explained below - #3)


If you are like my wife you love to shoot and hate to practice!  And even more so she hates to load and unload her bow quiver while having a fun day of shooting.  If that sounds like you, I do have some solutions that will help keep the shooting demons at bay.  I like to mix these up so she never gets used to doing this the same way and form a bad habit.  Here they are:

#1 – I walk around behind her being her personal caddie.  Sometimes I’m on her left side, sometimes I’m on her right side and sometimes I am right behind her.  I make sure she never knows where the next arrow is coming from.  Without her turning around I have her ask, “Where is my next arrow?”Hence the reference!  If she asks too soon I will withhold giving her the next arrow for a moment or two.  This is by far the best scenario.  Unfortunately it takes two people and usually ends in an argument if the shooting session goes on too long! :chuckle:

#2 – I will stick arrows in the ground at random distances from the shooting line.  Making sure each is located behind and to her left as she is a right handed shooter.  This way she cannot simply reach for the next arrow.  She needs to locate and find where the next arrow is after each shot.  This doesn’t always get her to shoot slower, but it does stop the habitual reaching before the shot has been completed.  This works best if I place the random arrows, but she can do it herself if she remains disciplined.

#3 – I have her wear a left handed target or field quiver on her left hip.  With this method she must completely let go of the bow with the left hand between shots as the bow hand is now also the arrow retrieving hand.  Truly amazing how effective this is!  And it can be easy for someone wanting to curb the itch to reach when shooting alone.

#4 – And finally there is the best bowhunting practice/shooting method.  Of course beyond 25 yards this is the wife’s least favorite.  This is to show up at the range with a single arrow.  No helper needed.  Just a lot of walking back and forth to the target.  Shoot one perfect arrow, walk to the target and pull it, walk back to the line and repeat!

So there you have one of my little things that will help you continue to improve in those important days and weeks before hunting season.  It may seem like an insignificant Little Thing, but it pays off in a very Big way!

Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 31, 2015, 07:22:38 AM
Thanks Rad.  I've been self-correcting this problem this year.  I found myself rapid firing and that my groups were plateauing because I was draw-shoot-nock-draw-shoot-nock-draw-shoot.  I suppose if I were in Henry VIII's army then I would be a good archer  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: JJB11B on July 31, 2015, 02:24:49 PM
I may have copy and pasted that last post into word and printed it so that I can refer back to it
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on August 02, 2015, 05:31:30 AM
Bowhunter's Magic Tape

It’s about time to hit the woods for early archery season!  Which also means it’s time to address all those things on our bows that shake loose, rattle, and spook game.  We put moleskin or Navcom on our risers, we paint over the shiny parts and we tighten up all the screws, bolts and peep serving so nothing comes loose bouncing up the gravel roads to our hunting spots.

There are few things in the bowhunter’s life more frustrating than missing due to a loose screw, a rattling broadhead or an animal coming unglued after hearing the clunk of a stabilizer as the bow sling adjusts just before the draw.  Thanks to a Little Thing called plumbers thread seal tape all these annoying noises can be eliminated for about $0.99 at the local Lowe’s store.  It’s such an important step in my own pre-season bow preparation I call it the “Bowhunter’s Magic Tape”! 

As a young bowhunter I spend most of my early hunting seasons within view of the ocean.  And while it is still one of my favorite places to hunt the moist salt air played heck on my equipment.  Screws locked into the riser and stripped the threads when you wanted to remove something.  Broadheads seemed to literally weld themselves into inserts.  I used silicone RTV, grease and a number of anti-seize remedies.  And while most would stop the effects of corrosion they caused problems when trying to keep those screws tight and those annoying rattles at bay.

One day while hunting with our local plumber I had a quiver almost fall off during a shot at a nice rag horn bull.  After my cursing subsided he shared with me his little secret.  Just two or three wraps of Teflon thread tape and all your worries go away!  No more rattles from screws coming loose, no more ruined threads due to corrosion, and no more arrow points that need to be retightened after every shot.  This guy was a genius!!! 8)

One of the additional benefits to this White Magic was the way it fixed broadheads that would not spin true.  Since it is nearly impossible for a screw machine to make an aluminum ferrule crooked or an insert with a crooked hole it should not matter whose broadhead or insert you choose to use.  But each run of parts and mixtures of suppliers often lead to wide tolerances between the ferrule and the insert.  Running a few wraps of thread tape on the parallel section of the ferrule as well as the threads usually fills that void left by the tolerance variation.  With a simple application of just those few wraps even the cheapest of broadheads and inserts can spin like a Titanium Savora ;) ;)

It’s amazing how this little thing can work absolute miracles on a bow and arrows!  Tomorrow my top three hunting bows get broken down and reassembled with a new batch of magic.  My peep sights will get a new batch of serving, my limb pivots will get a new batch of grease, my e-clips will get a new batch of RTV, my strings will get a new coating of Scorpion Venom and my little prides of joy will be ready to bring home natures premium protein!

Good luck everyone!  Pick a spot, follow through and have the time of your lives :hello:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 02, 2015, 08:22:44 AM
"My top three hunting bows"  seriously who says that. :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: MR5x5 on August 02, 2015, 09:52:44 AM
Same idea different method - Bees Wax.  Buy a block and drag the threads across it before install.  Works like a champ.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on August 02, 2015, 04:27:36 PM
"My top three hunting bows"  seriously who says that. :chuckle:

Blind bow - All Black, no attached quiver, longer stabilizer
Stand bow - Camo, no attached bow quiver, longer stabilizer, used as backup to either of the others.
Still/Stalking bow - Fast, maneuverable, balanced carry, more durable accessories, attached bow quiver, shorter stabilizer

Not much different than having a grouse gun, upland gun and a duck gun.  Or a brush rifle, mountain rifle and a long range rifle.   Even a carry weapon, bear defense weapon and a home defense weapon.  :dunno:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 02, 2015, 08:19:23 PM
"My top three hunting bows"  seriously who says that. :chuckle:

Blind bow - All Black, no attached quiver, longer stabilizer
Stand bow - Camo, no attached bow quiver, longer stabilizer, used as backup to either of the others.
Still/Stalking bow - Fast, maneuverable, balanced carry, more durable accessories, attached bow quiver, shorter stabilizer

Not much different than having a grouse gun, upland gun and a duck gun.  Or a brush rifle, mountain rifle and a long range rifle.   Even a carry weapon, bear defense weapon and a home defense weapon.  :dunno:
so I have 3 bows already so what I've gathered is I need more guns.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on August 02, 2015, 09:17:40 PM
Yes!  At least two more.  You can tell the wife I said so :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: earlmarne on August 03, 2015, 05:16:49 PM
I need to work on acquiring myself 3 bows.
I like the idea of the teflon tape.I am horrible about stripping out screw heads tightening them down too tight, and recently stripped out a head on my hamskea due to applying lock tight.I really stress on screws coming loose.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: kyle dillehay on August 30, 2015, 08:34:38 PM
I am new to archery and do not have near the experience nor accuracy as most of you guys but so truly appreciate this info that RadSav is sharing with us.  I went out practicing this morning, after trying to digest this whole thread, and started out terribly, but kept thinking about all I had read and concentrating on centering the pin, relaxing my grip, finding my anchor point, and slowing down and thinking about repeatability.  Soon the shafts were getting closer and closer until, on my last volley, I split an arrow.  First time ever doing that, only shooting at 20 yards but can't help but wonder if this was dumb luck or if all of "the little things" really did help out.  Then, of course, I was too excited to shoot anymore, and also bummed because I just ruined a $7 arrow, from Walmart, but still $7.
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Todd_ID on March 07, 2016, 08:24:32 PM
Even though this is a sticky thread, and stays at the top, it's still a must read for most of us bowhunters out there!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: loneduck on March 24, 2016, 10:58:16 PM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: White Pass Outfitters on June 29, 2016, 05:00:20 PM
Some good reading here. As an outfitter the only thing I can suggest is practice  and practice. And I dont mean standing up nice and tall while shooting every time. Kneel  down one knee then both knees shoot up hill and down hill. You dont always get that perfect set up, so make sure you dont require that perfect set up to make a kill shot.
Good luck on all your hunting adventures.
White Pass Outfitters
www.whitepassoutfitters.com
kd@whitepassoutfitters.com
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bracer40 on June 29, 2016, 08:02:40 PM
Some good reading here. As an outfitter the only thing I can suggest is practice  and practice. And I dont mean standing up nice and tall while shooting every time. Kneel  down one knee then both knees shoot up hill and down hill. You dont always get that perfect set up, so make sure you dont require that perfect set up to make a kill shot.
Good luck on all your hunting adventures.
White Pass Outfitters
www.whitepassoutfitters.com
kd@whitepassoutfitters.com
Great advice. One of my the best ways I know to replicate real life hunting "practice" is stump shooting. Great fun with a good partner!
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: RadSav on June 29, 2016, 11:53:36 PM
Stump shooting was a lot more enjoyable when our arrows used to cost $2.25! :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: Eric M on June 30, 2016, 12:03:57 AM
good thread here
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: bracer40 on June 30, 2016, 07:35:28 AM
Stump shooting was a lot more enjoyable when our arrows used to cost $2.25! :chuckle:
Just need to be more selective in picking out my "trophy stump" :chuckle:
Title: Re: The little things
Post by: elkboy on July 04, 2016, 11:18:56 AM
Thanks for all the great advice, Rad!  I am returning to archery after a long hiatus (13 years), and reading your advice is really helping me tighten up those groups.  The "blind bale" practice is especially helpful, and the difference between "shooting" and "practicing".   Keep the great advice coming! 

Can't wait for September...
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