Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: boneaddict on December 30, 2017, 07:15:15 PM

Title: More blood and guts
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2017, 07:15:15 PM
At Clover Springs.  Man thatís frustrating.  Oh well.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on December 30, 2017, 07:20:36 PM
shooting a lots of does and fawns and elk up in the Wenas and numbers are way down.I think issued cow tags up in 342 and 340 are down almost 80 per cent this past year.

last week saw a cow elk dead next too road. I guess too much work to drag it down to your steel horse i mean truck

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 07:20:47 PM
They (USFS and WDFW) are working on getting a closure order surrounding the feed site to make all public entry illegal surrounding the feeding station. Hasn't been signed yet as far as I know.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2017, 07:31:27 PM
Thatís basically how they shut down the killing at oak creek.   Itís too bad though.  Great place for kids to enjoy wildlife.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 07:36:03 PM
Thatís basically how they shut down the killing at oak creek.   Itís too bad though.  Great place for kids to enjoy wildlife.


It would only be south of the road for a bit so they wouldn't be able to shoot elk off the alfalfa is how I under stand it. Could be more area,but that is what I know. Wish they'd gate it right where Matson's property ends, but the public would be pissed.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 30, 2017, 07:59:19 PM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it! 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: h20hunter on December 30, 2017, 08:04:15 PM
Sounds like more slaughtering than hunting.  Being done at a feed station/area? Deplorable whomever is involved.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2017, 08:09:43 PM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it!

I couldnít tell you who did it.  Not sure I know anyone ballsey enough to pull it off other than someone who can legally do it.

Though I canít believe anyone is that worthless to shoot an animal at a feeding station
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on December 30, 2017, 08:09:56 PM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it!

Apparently for some reason you can't call a spade a spade on the net or it's "native bashing" or "hate speech"
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: mfswallace on December 30, 2017, 08:11:21 PM
Any pics?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 08:12:49 PM
There was a silver dodge with native plates that drove the same route every morning early December. Always went by when I was out chukar hunting.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2017, 08:18:06 PM
Any pics?
I do but they were taken by a young gal and her name is on the screen (screen shot).
I donít feel like processing them.
Quite frankly, why bother.  People say put it in the press.  Why?  Political pressure? Ya, I donít think so.  Send em to the WDFW. Iím sure they know. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 30, 2017, 08:22:27 PM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it!

Apparently for some reason you can't call a spade a spade on the net or it's "native bashing" or "hate speech"
exactly, thatís what pisses me off the most.  Itís not hate, itís the damn truth!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Rainier10 on December 30, 2017, 09:04:49 PM
Wow.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 30, 2017, 09:06:15 PM
We can talk about tribal issues on Hunting Washington, these are the rules for doing so:

Tribal hunting and fishing accounts for a substantial percentage of the hunting and fishing that occurs in Washington and many other states. There is a great deal of controversy and hard feelings regarding what percentage of the resources each side thinks they should receive. The fact is that the agencies and courts decide these percentages. Hunters and fishers on either side of the issue understandably hunt and fish as much as they are allowed by the agencies and courts which are in control. The individual hunters and fishers don't determine who gets what percentage so it makes little sense to blame each other for the decisions made by the courts and agencies.

Because these are hunting and fishing issues discussion should be allowed on a hunting and outdoors forum, but any trash talk or instigating from either side of the conversation will no longer be allowed. If you comment in a tribal topic you must follow the same rules as all other topics or face the consequences. Members on both side of the issue deserve equal respect!



That said, Bone doesn't know who shot the Elk.  It could have been legal which would make it tribal OR it could have been illegal.   Until we know, let's not point fingers.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Rainier10 on December 30, 2017, 09:08:30 PM
Was it deer? Why is this in elk hunting? :dunno:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 30, 2017, 09:10:30 PM
Was it deer? Why is this in elk hunting? :dunno:

I edited my post, I read ribka's 1st reply and started thinking about deer - mybad
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 09:11:32 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unless it is in his own yard.

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Rainier10 on December 30, 2017, 09:12:52 PM
Was it deer? Why is this in elk hunting? :dunno:

I edited my post, I read ribka's 1st reply and started thinking about deer - mybad
:tup:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on December 30, 2017, 09:14:02 PM
Was it deer? Why is this in elk hunting? :dunno:

I edited my post, I read ribka's 1st reply and started thinking about deer - mybad

do you want me to delete posts? Do folks living over 200 miles away know what is happening where we live every day? :dunno:

sorry to report what is occurring in wintering grounds of deer and elk :dunno:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 30, 2017, 09:14:41 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unlese it is in his own yard.

I don't disagree, it probably was tribal but we don't know for sure
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: mfswallace on December 30, 2017, 09:15:22 PM
Any pics?
I do but they were taken by a young gal and her name is on the screen (screen shot).
I donít feel like processing them.
Quite frankly, why bother.  People say put it in the press.  Why?  Political pressure? Ya, I donít think so.  Send em to the WDFW. Iím sure they know.

U probably know better than most but--
You know her name could be edited out. If the blatant abuses of a dwindling resource are exposed as much as possible, maybe, just maybe, action will be taken to stop the inequity and changes will occur to bring all people to the same page in regards to resource management...

In this case, is huntings enemy(enviro/greenies) an adversary  that could help stop the native slaughters  :dunno:
probably blasphemous to even think but so goes the mind when in such dire straights
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 30, 2017, 09:15:56 PM
Was it deer? Why is this in elk hunting? :dunno:

I edited my post, I read ribka's 1st reply and started thinking about deer - mybad

do you want me to delete posts?

sorry to report what is occurring in wintering grounds of deer and elk :dunno:

why?  You didn't do anything wrong, deer are getting hammered too. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on December 30, 2017, 09:17:21 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unlese it is in his own yard.

I don't disagree, it probably was tribal but we don't know for sure

not super smart but the Yak plates are kind of a clue but again i am not very bright :dunno:

Every year i make calls to lock gates so the animals cannot be molested when most stressed

never changes

mods feel free to delete my posts
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 09:22:19 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unlese it is in his own yard.

I don't disagree, it probably was tribal but we don't know for sure

not super smart but the Yak plates are kind of a clue but again i am not very bright :dunno:

I know a guy whose been seeing tons of Yakamas up there and he lives right on that road. Pretty good evidence, eh?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 30, 2017, 09:24:12 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unlese it is in his own yard.

I don't disagree, it probably was tribal but we don't know for sure

not super smart but the Yak plates are kind of a clue but again i am not very bright :dunno:

Every year i make calls to lock gates so the animals cannot be molested when most stressed

never changes

mods feel free to delete my posts

We all know what happens here. A bloodbath. Every year. You should put a decoy out and see if an Indian stops and takes a serious look at it.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 30, 2017, 09:26:28 PM
We need pics, otherwise itís all heresay. But I believe we all know whatís going on! 😡
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on December 30, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Any pics?
I do but they were taken by a young gal and her name is on the screen (screen shot).
I donít feel like processing them.
Quite frankly, why bother.  People say put it in the press.  Why?  Political pressure? Ya, I donít think so.  Send em to the WDFW. Iím sure they know.

U probably know better than most but--
You know her name could be edited out. If the blatant abuses of a dwindling resource are exposed as much as possible, maybe, just maybe, action will be taken to stop the inequity and changes will occur to bring all people to the same page in regards to resource management...

In this case, is huntings enemy(enviro/greenies) an adversary  that could help stop the native slaughters  :dunno:
probably blasphemous to even think but so goes the mind when in such dire straights

Would never happen, too hard a target! 

Too much money, too much political and legal protection, instead, they like going after soft targets they can split and get in-fighting going, you know...hunters!!

Much easier to get what they want that way...

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 30, 2017, 09:32:05 PM
Every year its the same. 


I used to advocate for feeding stations here, but HW changed my mind  :bash:        I'd loose my junk if I seen that here, on top of the wolves, a feeding station would just be a slaughter fest over here.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 31, 2017, 11:37:22 AM
Wish I lived closer, Iíd video whatís going on in the feed station.  If someone has pics and or video they should send it to the local news and donít mention natives, theyíll probably report it as poaching by white hunters.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on December 31, 2017, 03:56:25 PM
Should just open the whole state to whatever the native rights are. I thought people were about equality nowadays?  :dunno:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on December 31, 2017, 04:00:27 PM
Should just open the whole state to whatever the native rights are. I thought people were about equality nowadays?  :dunno:

 :yeah:   I think that might be the only way to get the natives to work with us in the conservation of our state's deer and elk.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 31, 2017, 04:05:42 PM
Should just open the whole state to whatever the native rights are. I thought people were about equality nowadays?  :dunno:

 :yeah:   I think that might be the only way to get the natives to work with us in the conservation of our state's deer and elk.
YES, Iíve been saying this for years!  Open it up state wide, same rules as the tribe has in those units, including fishing!  It will wipe out our herds and fish but will finnaly force the natives to the bargaining table!  Itís a great idea!!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on December 31, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
In the last native bashing thread I posted that we should turn management of fish and game to the tribes that have hunting rights in certain ceded areas, since we can't manage them let them manage us. 

We would buy a tribal hunting license for those tribal managed ceded areas and since the treaties say "in common with" then all the bag limits, all the rules, would be the same for us white folk and for Indian folk.   We would all be Indians in essence, in ceded areas. 



Of course to hunt on the reservation a person would still need a tribal ID card for that reservation.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 31, 2017, 04:16:11 PM
In the last native bashing thread I posted that we should turn management of fish and game to the tribes that have hunting rights in certain ceded areas, since we can't manage them let them manage us. 

We would buy a tribal hunting license for those tribal managed ceded areas and since the treaties say "in common with" then all the bag limits, all the rules, would be the same for us white folk and for Indian folk.   We would all be Indians in essence, in ceded areas. 



Of course to hunt on the reservation a person would still need a tribal ID card for that reservation.
The cases where it is already in play are actually quite a bit better than any of the shared areas.  A couple rivers on the westside and a bear hunting area.  The fishing areas have tons more fish, but they also get limited to the amount of people that can show up.  The bear hunting spot you can hunt over bait.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bearpaw on December 31, 2017, 04:28:56 PM
Should just open the whole state to whatever the native rights are. I thought people were about equality nowadays?  :dunno:

 :yeah:   I think that might be the only way to get the natives to work with us in the conservation of our state's deer and elk.

 :yeah: Equal Seasons, Equal Bag Limits! That's the most fair statement I think I have ever heard regarding how to deal with the current situation. All parties would have equal opportunity! All parties would have to come together to save the resources!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: boneaddict on December 31, 2017, 05:45:40 PM

"in common with"


Thatís the huge part missed in most of this
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 31, 2017, 10:34:12 PM
There's an Indian stuck somewhere off of the 1701/1712 with one cow killed. I know I'm not going up those icy roads.

He's asking for help on a few Facebook pages :chuckle:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Jimmer on December 31, 2017, 11:47:57 PM
There's an Indian stuck somewhere off of the 1701/1712 with one cow killed. I know I'm not going up those icy roads.

He's asking for help on a few Facebook pages :chuckle:
That's too bad....
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on December 31, 2017, 11:59:06 PM

"in common with"


Thatís the huge part missed in most of this
In legal terms that part meant 50% of the resource when it was litigated.
thats your interpretation , did you get my lump of coal in your stocking?  In common with means exactly what it says, doesnít take a genius to figure that part out.  Now if I got to hunt under their rules, I might feel diferently, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 01, 2018, 12:00:44 AM
I hope he gets help.

A difference of opinion is one thing;   his safety is a totally different matter. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on January 01, 2018, 12:06:24 AM
I hope he gets help.

A difference of opinion is one thing;   his safety is a totally different matter.

Not worth putting other people in harm over a stupid decision to go on icy roads. Sounds like family members are going up to try to get him.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 01, 2018, 09:24:50 AM

"in common with"


Thatís the huge part missed in most of this
In legal terms that part meant 50% of the resource when it was litigated.
thats your interpretation , did you get my lump of coal in your stocking?  In common with means exactly what it says, doesnít take a genius to figure that part out.  Now if I got to hunt under their rules, I might feel diferently, but I doubt it.
Well, in this day and age you shouldn't be too surprised about interpretations.  Think about all the confusion caused by 'Shall not be infringed'.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on January 01, 2018, 10:39:59 AM
I hope he gets help.

A difference of opinion is one thing;   his safety is a totally different matter.

Not worth putting other people in harm over a stupid decision to go on icy roads. Sounds like family members are going up to try to get him.

I saw your original unedited statement prior to 11:31pm, hoping the guy doesn't get rescued that no one goes up there for him, and I debated doing something about it but decided to let your comments speak for themselves. 

 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bearpaw on January 01, 2018, 10:50:28 AM
If I was closer I would go help the guy. He was hunting a season that is open for him to hunt, he is no different than any other hunter going out when the season is open.  :dunno:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on January 01, 2018, 11:07:25 AM

"in common with"


Thatís the huge part missed in most of this

 :tup:

Ive helped Yaks in the past get out cow elk in the Wenas so most of us aren't just bashing them for the sake of bashing.Its about our shared resources. That was almost 10 years ago. Now cow tags are down I think about 80 per cent up in 342 340 in 2017 and deer numbers are way down so am not so apt to help out. And more and more wolves are coming into the stressed Yakima herd

No problem helping someone stuck get out. That is an unwritten rule up in the mountains. No doubt naches would stop to help someone

I had some issues in the past when wdfw was allowing muckleshoots to hunt elk up in the Nile during late archery. It was a schit show. The mucks were jumping of trucks and shooting down in the canyons at groups of running elk and there were bow hunters  was one of them)  hunting down in those same canyons. The mucks knew this and were purposefully doing this endangering hunters. I was was one of them and heard bullets flying past me.I hiked out and called YSO to stop it. The mucks were just laughing.

so much for working together. I dont think the Yakamas would ever do this



Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JM on January 01, 2018, 11:42:08 AM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unless it is in his own yard.

You guys do know that it's not just white people that hunt public ground.

I'm white, but it makes this thread sound kind of ignorant when I keep reading about white people vs natives.

I don't know why you need to see pictures? We've all seen dead deer and elk and we all know that this goes on, the real unfortunate thing is that we live next to one of the greediest tribes in the state if not country and they do whatever they want whenever they want and don't give any thought to where the majority of the funding for these resources is coming from. The Yakamas have done a lot for the salmon and steelhead, but they are raping and pillaging our deer and elk herds without a second thought.

I know of a guy that was in a meeting with the Yakamas about the Muckleshoot tribe coming over the pass and hunting. In that meeting one of the Yakama elders told the whole meeting that the Yaks will have to shoot every deer and elk so that the Muckleshoots won't come over and hunt their ceded land. That kind of sums up the thought process that goes on over there. I'm not saying that all of them are like this, but the ones that are have branded natives with a horrible reputation in most of the outdoor communities
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 01, 2018, 12:04:59 PM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unless it is in his own yard.

You guys do know that it's not just white people that hunt public ground.

I'm white, but it makes this thread sound kind of ignorant when I keep reading about white people vs natives.

I don't know why you need to see pictures? We've all seen dead deer and elk and we all know that this goes on, the real unfortunate thing is that we live next to one of the greediest tribes in the state if not country and they do whatever they want whenever they want and don't give any thought to where the majority of the funding for these resources is coming from. The Yakamas have done a lot for the salmon and steelhead, but they are raping and pillaging our deer and elk herds without a second thought.

I know of a guy that was in a meeting with the Yakamas about the Muckleshoot tribe coming over the pass and hunting. In that meeting one of the Yakama elders told the whole meeting that the Yaks will have to shoot every deer and elk so that the Muckleshoots won't come over and hunt their ceded land. That kind of sums up the thought process that goes on over there. I'm not saying that all of them are like this, but the ones that are have branded natives with a horrible reputation in most of the outdoor communities
sounds like at least one of the elders has the same idea as a couple of us on here, open the season up to all, kill everything so they have to deal with us.  Interesting!  And a great idea!!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Green broke on January 01, 2018, 08:07:10 PM
Wish I lived closer, Iíd video whatís going on in the feed station.  If someone has pics and or video they should send it to the local news and donít mention natives, theyíll probably report it as poaching by white hunters.
If you want to paint hunting in a poor light with your media blitz, expect reciprocation. It would not be a tall task to video and document some bad behavior during the state season.  Think for a second about demographics and the state where we live.  I'm sure all the bleeding hearts you want to contact would love to see non true spikes left to rot and your WDFW would love to hang sportsman out to dry and pile it on.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 01, 2018, 08:19:00 PM
Wish I lived closer, Iíd video whatís going on in the feed station.  If someone has pics and or video they should send it to the local news and donít mention natives, theyíll probably report it as poaching by white hunters.
If you want to paint hunting in a poor light with your media blitz, expect reciprocation. It would not be a tall task to video and document some bad behavior during the state season.  Think for a second about demographics and the state where we live.  I'm sure all the bleeding hearts you want to contact would love to see non true spikes left to rot and your WDFW would love to hang sportsman out to dry and pile it on.
trust me, we would be on the same side if you had a chance to video non natives poaching. When ever there are non natives caught poaching itís all over this forum, which is good.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Green broke on January 01, 2018, 08:25:22 PM
Wish I lived closer, Iíd video whatís going on in the feed station.  If someone has pics and or video they should send it to the local news and donít mention natives, theyíll probably report it as poaching by white hunters.
If you want to paint hunting in a poor light with your media blitz, expect reciprocation. It would not be a tall task to video and document some bad behavior during the state season.  Think for a second about demographics and the state where we live.  I'm sure all the bleeding hearts you want to contact would love to see non true spikes left to rot and your WDFW would love to hang sportsman out to dry and pile it on.
trust me, we would be on the same side if you had a chance to video non natives poaching. When ever there are non natives caught poaching itís all over this forum, which is good.
TheYakamas are legally hunting, not poaching. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: h20hunter on January 01, 2018, 08:31:12 PM
Slaughtering. Not hunting.  Fish in a barrel.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 01, 2018, 09:07:42 PM
Wish I lived closer, Iíd video whatís going on in the feed station.  If someone has pics and or video they should send it to the local news and donít mention natives, theyíll probably report it as poaching by white hunters.
If you want to paint hunting in a poor light with your media blitz, expect reciprocation. It would not be a tall task to video and document some bad behavior during the state season.  Think for a second about demographics and the state where we live.  I'm sure all the bleeding hearts you want to contact would love to see non true spikes left to rot and your WDFW would love to hang sportsman out to dry and pile it on.
trust me, we would be on the same side if you had a chance to video non natives poaching. When ever there are non natives caught poaching itís all over this forum, which is good.
TheYakamas are legally hunting, not poaching.

Green Broke is right.

People don't need to like it, but there is a world of difference between poaching and hunting a legal season. 

Heck, I don't like that some White people own thousands of acres and get to hunt their own private dream land (and get depredation permits for over the Winter) but that doesn't make it poaching.   They were just born with a different birthright than me.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: cryder on January 02, 2018, 06:10:22 AM
Say it AGAIN ! HUH ? OH ! O K ! One day we will all end up on the same and last legal trail left to hunt , we will all cross paths and realize it is over as we liked it , and will realize it's time to turn the page . Turn  ( your ) missle launchers , muzzies , crime guns , and bows into just plinking toys , man was never meant to be meat eaters anyways so we will then be victims of fish n feathers and full circle reality the more I get out there the more ahead of the inevitable knee buckling bender curve ball that we all no is comeing , the count is 3 n 2 and it's time to give it your best swing , before the clown we elected finds a profitable motion to take it away 🤣😂😂😂  j ( just kiddn ? ) Don't wanna light any fires , well at the risk of repeating myself again I'll stop thinking , anyways , everybody , welcome back from the sindacated financial season , and until the next walk of shame to the tag counter , Happy Easter ? Or is that the stride of pride ? U decide 😂😂🤡🤡
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 02, 2018, 06:35:51 AM
Same issue every year. Unless something is done about it they are going to evoke "Their Right". It's just sad that they feel the need to do it in such a defenseless area.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: MarkTrail on January 02, 2018, 07:02:07 AM
Dan-o, your comparison to large private landowners is a joke right? Birthright? Wow, as a landowner with "special rules" I am allowed one deer with regular state tag and another with my special depredation kill permit. With that privilege I have to pay property, sales, income tax etc.
   You people who do not live in the general areas will never understand. I can assure you that the Washington sportsman is not harvesting 50% of the branch bulls. The "natives" are killing way more than we legally harvest. The huge reduction in cow tags was certainly not in response to winter kill. I hike our mountains way more than the average person and I found very few winter kills. Get your heads out of the sand people this a bad situation getting worst.
   I could and do rant forever but I will leave you intelligent supporters with one thought. How many deer, elk are the tribes killing? I will answer for you, don't know! They have no accountability towards management. Zero reporting or limits. Just consider it unlimited gov tags everyday.
   Legal poaching! That's what it is...
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 07:13:51 AM
Dan-o, your comparison to large private landowners is a joke right? Birthright? Wow, as a landowner with "special rules" I am allowed one deer with regular state tag and another with my special depredation kill permit. With that privilege I have to pay property, sales, income tax etc.
   You people who do not live in the general areas will never understand. I can assure you that the Washington sportsman is not harvesting 50% of the branch bulls. The "natives" are killing way more than we legally harvest. The huge reduction in cow tags was certainly not in response to winter kill. I hike our mountains way more than the average person and I found very few winter kills. Get your heads out of the sand people this a bad situation getting worst.
   I could and do rant forever but I will leave you intelligent supporters with one thought. How many deer, elk are the tribes killing? I will answer for you, don't know! They have no accountability towards management. Zero reporting or limits. Just consider it unlimited gov tags everyday.
   Legal poaching! That's what it is...
"BOOM"  :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:  Perfectly said!!!!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 02, 2018, 07:23:57 AM
Dan-o, your comparison to large private landowners is a joke right? Birthright? Wow, as a landowner with "special rules" I am allowed one deer with regular state tag and another with my special depredation kill permit. With that privilege I have to pay property, sales, income tax etc.
   You people who do not live in the general areas will never understand. I can assure you that the Washington sportsman is not harvesting 50% of the branch bulls. The "natives" are killing way more than we legally harvest. The huge reduction in cow tags was certainly not in response to winter kill. I hike our mountains way more than the average person and I found very few winter kills. Get your heads out of the sand people this a bad situation getting worst.
   I could and do rant forever but I will leave you intelligent supporters with one thought. How many deer, elk are the tribes killing? I will answer for you, don't know! They have no accountability towards management. Zero reporting or limits. Just consider it unlimited gov tags everyday.
   Legal poaching! That's what it is...
"BOOM"  :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:  Perfectly said!!!!

I'm ashamed I even play the point game! I can't wait to draw so I never put another dime into their programs. I've been applying for easy stuff. Luckily antlerless deer is zeroed out. Onto everything else now
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 02, 2018, 07:37:28 AM
I am thinking there is a wolf in sheep's cl0othing trying to make us believe its not just legalized poaching.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JM on January 02, 2018, 08:49:50 AM
Dan-o, your comparison to large private landowners is a joke right? Birthright? Wow, as a landowner with "special rules" I am allowed one deer with regular state tag and another with my special depredation kill permit. With that privilege I have to pay property, sales, income tax etc.
   You people who do not live in the general areas will never understand. I can assure you that the Washington sportsman is not harvesting 50% of the branch bulls. The "natives" are killing way more than we legally harvest. The huge reduction in cow tags was certainly not in response to winter kill. I hike our mountains way more than the average person and I found very few winter kills. Get your heads out of the sand people this a bad situation getting worst.
   I could and do rant forever but I will leave you intelligent supporters with one thought. How many deer, elk are the tribes killing? I will answer for you, don't know! They have no accountability towards management. Zero reporting or limits. Just consider it unlimited gov tags everyday.
   Legal poaching! That's what it is...

I agree with you 110% on everything that you said except for the reduced # of cow tags. I can only speak for the Cowiche unit, but the main reason for the reduced number of cow tags for 368 is due to the number of cows harvested with depredation permits. I sure as hell can't be upset though because I was one of the people that put a depredation tag on a cow in January. The real dumb thing about this is that the elk being harvested on these permits in the Cowiche are either from the Rez herds or from the local herd from behind the store. Like I said earlier I can only speak for the Cowiche unit.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: cavemann on January 02, 2018, 08:51:30 AM
The last go around of secret mediated meetings to sidestep the public for fishing rights and complete refusal to report harvest numbers has destroyed any credibility the tribes have.  As I've stated before WDFW gets lit up like a Christmas tree here because of there lack of credibility not prejudice..  The same goes for the tribes for me now.  If we want to continue to respect original land rights and use lets do it.  Let the Muks, Yaks, Skoks and all of them fight it out like they used to.  Why force them to work together, lets the best tribe win.  The double standard of them unifying for their benefit and screwing us over is ludicrous.

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: vandeman17 on January 02, 2018, 09:09:07 AM
So much to say but not worth the time.

What's the definition of insanity...?  :bash:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2018, 11:10:59 AM
And no - my comparison was not a joke. 

 "our" government made a deal with "their" government.

Now most of us don't like the terms.    I don't either, by the way.

But our government made a treaty.   The Yakama's are hunting legally. That is not poaching.   It is not close. And most of us that hunt have tried to use weather to our advantage when possible. I've shot some mighty difficult elk, and some mighty easy ones over the years.   An easy hunt doesn't make it poaching, either. 

For the record:   I would LOVE for the treaty to be renegotiated, but I am not in favor of unilaterally breaking an agreement. Not with the Yakama's.  I believe in the rule of law...... and you can't really have that if you walk away from agreements when they no longer favor you. 

What I think would be constructive:    the US gov't doing anything and everything legally possible to compell the tribes to renegotiate. And I mean everything. Including discretionary Federal funds. 

I'd love to see a level playing field; but I won't fault the Yakama's for the fact that their ancestors made a treaty with the US that is now working well for them in some regards.

Be well. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 02, 2018, 11:18:22 AM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it!

I couldnít tell you who did it.  Not sure I know anyone ballsey enough to pull it off other than someone who can legally do it.

Though I canít believe anyone is that worthless to shoot an animal at a feeding station

Not much different than baiting. Just on a larger scale.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 02, 2018, 11:22:40 AM
Or like shooting the neighborhood deer, sporting. Then cut the horns off and walk away.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: vandeman17 on January 02, 2018, 11:32:53 AM
shooting a lots of does and fawns up in the Wenas and numbers are way down

so much for worshipping nature in a toyota tacoma  with a lift kit, a bed full of empty beer cans shooting from the road
are you guys talking about natives? Seriously, if this is about native hunting, then just say it!

I couldnít tell you who did it.  Not sure I know anyone ballsey enough to pull it off other than someone who can legally do it.

Though I canít believe anyone is that worthless to shoot an animal at a feeding station

Not much different than baiting. Just on a larger scale.

Comparing this to baiting, give me a break.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: MarkTrail on January 02, 2018, 11:38:54 AM
Jm, I absolutely agree with your assessment in regards to 368. The state does a poor job of maintaining the elk fence in some areas. The south end of the yakima herd and the north end(ellensburg) got pounded last winter by depredation tags. The state lead us to believe it was winter kill.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: B4noon on January 02, 2018, 12:27:04 PM
The hardest pill to swallow in the great debate weather you agree with the treaty rights or not personally I would rather see more oversight and have co-management to prevent over harvest the sour stomach gets you when you live in the area and have first hand knowledge that its not for subsistence the majority of it is for profit which I don't believe their ancestors negotiated a treaty on the basis of profit more so on the basis of subsistence.  There is great money being made by selling trophy antlers they aren't stacking them in the garage or putting them on the wall rather selling for profit.  The excess meat is a bi product and for years it's been no secret in yakima where to go to buy an elk carcass for $100.  It's not as much a practice of taking what we need from the environment to survive it has morphed into dollars running around in the woods and paychecks to cash which in turn desimates populations like anything else there is certainly a few bad apples giving them a black eye when you have 1 or 2 individuals taking over 100 trophy animals a year that's where the tribe needs to step in for their own sake and have some regulation on the raping of the land
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: cavemann on January 02, 2018, 12:39:48 PM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2018, 12:52:59 PM
Cavemann,

I think we agree.

As I said, I think the US gov't should use EVERY available lever to renegotiate the treaties.   

And I certainly don't think that having a few people harvest wayyyyyyy more than what they need is an OK plan. 

But, a deal is a deal. So let's use the leverage we have to renegotiate......   because we can't just walk away from the treaty. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 01:36:07 PM
The hardest pill to swallow in the great debate weather you agree with the treaty rights or not personally I would rather see more oversight and have co-management to prevent over harvest the sour stomach gets you when you live in the area and have first hand knowledge that its not for subsistence the majority of it is for profit which I don't believe their ancestors negotiated a treaty on the basis of profit more so on the basis of subsistence.  There is great money being made by selling trophy antlers they aren't stacking them in the garage or putting them on the wall rather selling for profit.  The excess meat is a bi product and for years it's been no secret in yakima where to go to buy an elk carcass for $100.  It's not as much a practice of taking what we need from the environment to survive it has morphed into dollars running around in the woods and paychecks to cash which in turn desimates populations like anything else there is certainly a few bad apples giving them a black eye when you have 1 or 2 individuals taking over 100 trophy animals a year that's where the tribe needs to step in for their own sake and have some regulation on the raping of the land
If I knew for 100% Iíd say the names of those bad apples, and if you can go buy an elk for $100, there should be an undercover investigation!  I completely agree with what your saying!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 01:38:08 PM
Cavemann,

I think we agree.

As I said, I think the US gov't should use EVERY available lever to renegotiate the treaties.   

And I certainly don't think that having a few people harvest wayyyyyyy more than what they need is an OK plan. 

But, a deal is a deal. So let's use the leverage we have to renegotiate......   because we can't just walk away from the treaty.
Id be willing to support a pay off, give each member 100,000 to follow state rules off the reservation, including all waters.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: B4noon on January 02, 2018, 02:34:33 PM
The names of the few are pretty well known, and undercover buys have been done multiple times by our enforcement only to hit the upper levels of enforcement with a directive not to prosicute for fear of creating more costly court orders in other areas brought on by the tribe.  The few successful stings have only resulted in non-tribal purchasers getting prosicuted.  Not all tribes are unregulated and the colvilles wold not stand for their members abusing their rights in this way.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 02, 2018, 02:42:25 PM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 02:56:18 PM
The names of the few are pretty well known, and undercover buys have been done multiple times by our enforcement only to hit the upper levels of enforcement with a directive not to prosicute for fear of creating more costly court orders in other areas brought on by the tribe.  The few successful stings have only resulted in non-tribal purchasers getting prosicuted.  Not all tribes are unregulated and the colvilles wold not stand for their members abusing their rights in this way.
wow!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on January 02, 2018, 03:04:22 PM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.


Serious question, not meant in any way to be confrontational, but what could possibly be out there to offer beyond (more?) money from the government, ability to make money from things like casinos, and hunting & fishing rights?

Sorry, but really can't come up with anything that could possibly get them to give anything they currently have up...
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: WSU on January 02, 2018, 03:11:41 PM
How about all the land back?
Title: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on January 02, 2018, 03:32:13 PM
Did they own all the land to begin with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 03:46:39 PM
Did they own all the land to begin with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
nope, they took it from somebody.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: goldenhtr on January 02, 2018, 03:59:15 PM
I think non-Tribal casinos should be legal. Hit them in the pocket book. See how long it takes them to see the light.

How's it go (What's good for the goose is good for the gander)
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Gringo31 on January 02, 2018, 04:04:45 PM
I suppose "tis the season"....



Frankly, I think it does good for people to actually listen to and make their points.  It makes them think a little more than just sitting around a campfire with only those who agree with them.   :twocents:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2018, 04:12:01 PM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.


Serious question, not meant in any way to be confrontational, but what could possibly be out there to offer beyond (more?) money from the government, ability to make money from things like casinos, and hunting & fishing rights?

Sorry, but really can't come up with anything that could possibly get them to give anything they currently have up...
we lost a great opportunity back when tribes started putting in casinos, they probably would have given up somethingís for complete freedom of them, no restriction on certain games.  I personally think we could still bargain with them if the natives didnít have the democrats in their pocket!  We should let non natives open casinos with no gaming restrictions, that would piss off the natives and possible bring them to the bargening table?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: meatwhack on January 02, 2018, 04:22:33 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on January 02, 2018, 04:24:45 PM
And no - my comparison was not a joke. 

 "our" government made a deal with "their" government.

Now most of us don't like the terms.    I don't either, by the way.

But our government made a treaty.   The Yakama's are hunting legally. That is not poaching.   It is not close. And most of us that hunt have tried to use weather to our advantage when possible. I've shot some mighty difficult elk, and some mighty easy ones over the years.   An easy hunt doesn't make it poaching, either. 

For the record:   I would LOVE for the treaty to be renegotiated, but I am not in favor of unilaterally breaking an agreement. Not with the Yakama's.  I believe in the rule of law...... and you can't really have that if you walk away from agreements when they no longer favor you. 

What I think would be constructive:    the US gov't doing anything and everything legally possible to compell the tribes to renegotiate. And I mean everything. Including discretionary Federal funds. 

I'd love to see a level playing field; but I won't fault the Yakama's for the fact that their ancestors made a treaty with the US that is now working well for them in some regards.

Be well.

I think the tribes are not in compliance with the 50% take rulings or the treaty, can you prove me wrong? 

Nor could I prove you wrong, thus we need to investigate this and take it back to court and force some kind of inventory and tracking to see what 50% is and if they're taking too much.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on January 02, 2018, 04:28:51 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.


Kind of like our old 1 drop rule huh?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 02, 2018, 04:40:40 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.


Kind of like our old 1 drop rule huh?

I'd guess that when the treaties were written, they didn't expect a bunch of 3/4 or 7/8 white folk being considered tribal members.
Should Elizabeth Warren have gotten preference for college admissions by identifying as a Cherokee?  Should some 3/4 white guy that looks really white get special bids for federal contracts?  Extra fishing/hunting?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on January 02, 2018, 04:47:47 PM
I can't answer that question, what if some mostly white guy was raised on the reservation and that was the only life they knew, embraced the heritage and identified fully as Indian? 

on the other hand

Is it fair to have mostly white people running around with special birth rights and privileges when our country is so antithetical to birth right privileges?  I mean, how very British..


Tough question, and I don't know where to draw the line.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 02, 2018, 04:51:32 PM
yeah, it is a tough one.  Kind of a "so, you want to inherit from 1/4 of ancestors what the other 3/4 of ancestors were trying to kill and take?"
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 02, 2018, 07:06:44 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.

 :yeah: none of the Indians alive at the treaty signing are alive today. It's over. Done
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2018, 07:27:58 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.

 :yeah: none of the Indians alive at the treaty signing are alive today. It's over. Done

So if your grandfather left you a birthrght and then died.....    It's over.   Done.???

Really?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2018, 07:29:21 PM
1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.

Interesting.

I don't know if the treaties address this or not.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on January 02, 2018, 07:35:42 PM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.


Serious question, not meant in any way to be confrontational, but what could possibly be out there to offer beyond (more?) money from the government, ability to make money from things like casinos, and hunting & fishing rights?

Sorry, but really can't come up with anything that could possibly get them to give anything they currently have up...

Great question......   I do not know the answer.

I don't know what kind of discretionary federal funds flow to the tribes (if any), I don't know about federal road projects, or other commerce-enabling things.   

Casinos..... seems like some tribes make a ton of money on casino's.   I don't know the logic behind not letting non-Natives compete in that arena.....  but I'm sure it's decided politically.   Seems like one more lever in negotiating.

In the end, I think there are only two possible outcomes:
  *  Continue on with the treaties as-is.
  *  Renegotiate (which implies both sides negotiate).

I don't see the US Gov't just walking away from the treaty, so why spend time and energy on that thought?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dvolmer on January 02, 2018, 08:16:35 PM
This pretty well sums it all up!  Even with all of the free stuff and super-hero rights, they are still in most cases miserable and unhappy.  Nothing will ever change.  It will always be the same.  They will go out and shoot it all up with there guns and trucks that have been bought with the tax payer money.  Sure there are exceptions.  Some who want to do whats right.  But that is few and far between.  When you try to change things to make it right, they will show up to court dancing in there furs, feathers, and moccasins.  Every liberal court in our state will side with them.  Just go for a drive through any of the reservations in our state and the facts above are easily verified.  But nothing and i mean nothing will ever change.  When the liberals finally win and take the hunting and gun rights away from Sportsman, the Indian will still be allowed to do as they please.  Go back over the last 300 to 500 years and there is nobody alive in this country that has ancestry that hasn't been conquered and treated unfairly.  We all should be getting a free ride because we all have been mistreated somewhere or at some time.  My question is, When is it all going to be done and everyone treated fairly???  Wow, I'm sounding like a liberal!!!!! ha ha (I wish it was really funny but its really not!!)
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on January 02, 2018, 09:03:09 PM
The bashing never ends.   So sad.  You canít pick your parents, when or where you are born. Some are born to privilege some to poverty.   Some are working and never getting ahead, some have no worries or wants. Just because it is not fair to you doesnít mean itís not fair. Get educated and stop the hate. Yes Iím 100% European decent. My family moved onto the Yakama Rez in 1917 on my motherís side. 1931 on my fathers side. I am the 4 th generation of Satus area farmers. I have no more rights on the Rez than someone living in Seattle . I have seen the good and bad in Native and non Native. Itís easy to point fingures at the Natives cause they do hunt in the daytime within their treaty rights . There is way more damage done at night by non natives. I shake my head at how fast members of this forum throw out the whole box when itís a limited few who are rotten.   SO SAD. NUFF SAID
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jnordwell on January 02, 2018, 09:31:53 PM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 02, 2018, 10:22:46 PM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

Just let them do it, who cares anymore. Kill everything off and eventually we won't buy tags. We can just go camping for a week at a time. Then WDFW won't have any money.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 03, 2018, 05:21:24 AM
Well its good to know that in his taking of 10 or so elk he is probably also killing a fair amount of pregnant cows. Kind of a warm, cozy feeling.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: MADMAX on January 03, 2018, 06:03:19 AM
fishing and hunting around this state sucks anymore
Unbelievable

Killing on wintering grounds, and netting the rivers has done this.
Needs to stop

Oh how about some trash dumping up in the woods also

Sad how its become
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 03, 2018, 06:22:49 AM
The bashing never ends.   So sad.  You canít pick your parents, when or where you are born. Some are born to privilege some to poverty.   Some are working and never getting ahead, some have no worries or wants. Just because it is not fair to you doesnít mean itís not fair. Get educated and stop the hate. Yes Iím 100% European decent. My family moved onto the Yakama Rez in 1917 on my motherís side. 1931 on my fathers side. I am the 4 th generation of Satus area farmers. I have no more rights on the Rez than someone living in Seattle . I have seen the good and bad in Native and non Native. Itís easy to point fingures at the Natives cause they do hunt in the daytime within their treaty rights . There is way more damage done at night by non natives. I shake my head at how fast members of this forum throw out the whole box when itís a limited few who are rotten.   SO SAD. NUFF SAID
I love it when someone throws out the racial card on this topic, no hate for the tribe as a whole here, it's about the resources and the lack of responsibility by a few.  Hate is Adolph Hitler, wanting to make us all equal is about as far from hate as you can get! I was given a vacation last time someone accused us (me) as being a racist, so I'll refrain from what I really want to say, you can probably guess.  As far as non natives poaching at night (or anytime), at least our law enforcement can do something about it and is.  The penalties that are given are not sufficient but at least something can be done.  I'd say most on this thread care about their fellow man just the same, the rotten apples ruin it on both sides, maybe we just care more about OUR fish and game then you do apparently? 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 03, 2018, 06:26:53 AM
Well its good to know that in his taking of 10 or so elk he is probably also killing a fair amount of pregnant cows. Kind of a warm, cozy feeling.
I wonder if its one of a couple that actually take 100 plus elk a year, imagine the impact two or three guys doing that yearly?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Jpmiller on January 03, 2018, 06:38:47 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Magnum_Willys on January 03, 2018, 06:49:37 AM
Tribal Hunting = one more predator and the only one able to help us control the others..... how can we encourage tribal hound hunting of bear, cougar and wolves? 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Ccortez on January 03, 2018, 06:54:41 AM
Tribal Hunting = one more predator and the only one able to help us control the others..... how can we encourage tribal hound hunting of bear, cougar and wolves?

Some tribes are able to hound hunt but finding someone with hounds is difficult to find
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 03, 2018, 07:05:38 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.
Used to fish the Frazier river with a guide up in Canada, not sure about their hunting feelings, but they are not fond of the native fishing rights.  He used to run over their nets with his boat.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on January 03, 2018, 08:06:54 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.


In Wyoming there are a lot more recourses and a lot less people,.600,00 in Wyoming .  7 million in wa. The game in Wyoming is scattered over the whole state.

Native American population in Washington is Appx 130,000
Native American population in Wyoming is appx 13,000

Of course they donít have the same problems in Wyoming as we do. 

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jackelope on January 03, 2018, 08:14:05 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.
Used to fish the Frazier river with a guide up in Canada, not sure about their hunting feelings, but they are not fond of the native fishing rights.  He used to run over their nets with his boat.

I'm not really a boat expert, but also not sure this would be a great idea. A big old net wrapped up in a prop sounds like a gigantic headache.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 03, 2018, 08:17:40 AM
What if its a Jet motor?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Timberstalker on January 03, 2018, 08:21:24 AM
Well its good to know that in his taking of 10 or so elk he is probably also killing a fair amount of pregnant cows. Kind of a warm, cozy feeling.

 :yike: :yike: :yike:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Southpole on January 03, 2018, 08:32:06 AM
I have been told, that in Idaho, the natives still have to use dip nets to catch their share of fish out of rivers  :dunno:.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 03, 2018, 08:39:48 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.
Used to fish the Frazier river with a guide up in Canada, not sure about their hunting feelings, but they are not fond of the native fishing rights.  He used to run over their nets with his boat.

I'm not really a boat expert, but also not sure this would be a great idea. A big old net wrapped up in a prop sounds like a gigantic headache.
I should have said that he runs jet motors, your correct, a prop would be a mess.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 03, 2018, 08:42:03 AM
I have been told, that in Idaho, the natives still have to use dip nets to catch their share of fish out of rivers  :dunno:.
not sure about that but they take more than their share of big elk in the blues, on our side of the boarder. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jmscon on January 03, 2018, 10:23:39 AM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.


In Wyoming there are a lot more recourses and a lot less people,.600,00 in Wyoming .  7 million in wa. The game in Wyoming is scattered over the whole state.

Native American population in Washington is Appx 130,000
Native American population in Wyoming is appx 13,000

Of course they donít have the same problems in Wyoming as we do.

Registered natives in this state number around 61,000, less than half of what you stated.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Elkcollector82 on January 03, 2018, 10:28:25 AM
Tribal Hunting = one more predator and the only one able to help us control the others..... how can we encourage tribal hound hunting of bear, cougar and wolves?

Some tribes are able to hound hunt but finding someone with hounds is difficult to find

Iím sure their are people willing to use their dogs and haul around a native.  Play the Iím just the white guy riding along and itís his dogs game. Funny thing is. Highly doubt you will get the out rage. If a native piled up 20 bears or cougars. Like you do over elk and deer.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: cavemann on January 03, 2018, 10:33:03 AM
Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.

There is plenty emotion and opinion on each side.  My frustration is current  to today's situation an d in reference to public perception based off of current actions.  While I understand things have been frustrating, I'm not looking to continue to argue and debate the merits of frustrations from years, decades and centuries ago.  If that is the case we all will be stuck righting wrongs for much more than Tribal rights.... 

My opinion stands and I don't feel guilty for expressing it.  I'm not calling them poachers or bashing Tribal members.  I'm expressing an opinion based off of the break down of current status because that is the reality of today, not 1850, 1900, 1950 or even 1970...  There has been plenty of positives the Tribes have brought to the table and I appreciate and respect that.  I'm bowing out, in no way is my opinion based off of anything other than public perception as I have stated clearly.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dvolmer on January 03, 2018, 12:53:29 PM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

Outside of Washington, on most of the reservations in Montana, Wyoming, and other western states, is that the Indians can only hunt on there respective reservations.  In Montana and Wyoming a native american cant just go hunt anywhere he wants too.  He can only hunt on the reservations.  If he hunts off of them, then he has to follow the rules of the state that he lives in.  Somehow the treaty that was made with the Indians in our region was for areas way outside of their reservations.  WDFW quit trying to fight this because every time they arrest or ticket a native, they simply go to our liberal court systems and it gets thrown out.  Your tax money and license money was being wasted fighting a fight that could never be won.  Not only are we paying for the lawyers to fight this but we are paying the lawyers to fight for the Indians.  One of my close friends who works as a biologist for WDFW and shares an office with the wardens told me that the WDFW has given up trying to prosecute the natives because it costs so much and they always loose.  They will hunt with the most modern weapons and equipment but show up in court in feathers and beads smoking the pipe.

Not only are they not going to fight or prosecute this, WDFW is told to not talk about it to the everyday sportsman and not to blame the lack of special permits and reduced animal numbers to the everyday sportsman because they dont want to referee a holy-war!  If the fisherman and hunters in this state really realized the cost of all of this they would go bizerk!  The sportsman is flipping the bill for all of the management and resource and a small number of individuals due to race are glutting themselves due to the loop holes of the law.  This problem is much much bigger than most people on this forum really understand and know.  WDFW is totally frustrated and has there hands tied and on top of this, told to keep their mouths shut.  you guys talk about them selling the meat for profit.  Just think what a set of Boone and Crockett antlers fetch on the market.  Just a decent 6x6 bull elk in the 300 inch class brings hundreds and hundreds of dollars. 

They can drive right down to the feeding stations.  Cut the locks off of the gates.  drive right in.  Shoot 5 to 10 elk right in front of the 5th grade class field trip.  Load them in their truck.  Drive out and sell them.  AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU OR WDFW CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!!  NOTHING!!!!

How can a resourse ever be managed like this.  It cant!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: sockeye66 on January 03, 2018, 02:59:40 PM
I think non-Tribal casinos should be legal. Hit them in the pocket book. See how long it takes them to see the light.

How's it go (What's good for the goose is good for the gander)
my thoughts exactely :bash: :bash:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 03, 2018, 04:31:51 PM
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 03, 2018, 04:34:04 PM
Now is the time to move on casinos. Trump wants equality, which is all we want as well. Not give one group of people a bunch of special privileges then tell the other group of people they have to live amongst each other and be ok with it.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dvolmer on January 03, 2018, 05:25:40 PM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

Outside of Washington, on most of the reservations in Montana, Wyoming, and other western states, is that the Indians can only hunt on there respective reservations.  In Montana and Wyoming a native american cant just go hunt anywhere he wants too.  He can only hunt on the reservations.  If he hunts off of them, then he has to follow the rules of the state that he lives in.  Somehow the treaty that was made with the Indians in our region was for areas way outside of their reservations.  WDFW quit trying to fight this because every time they arrest or ticket a native, they simply go to our liberal court systems and it gets thrown out.  Your tax money and license money was being wasted fighting a fight that could never be won.  Not only are we paying for the lawyers to fight this but we are paying the lawyers to fight for the Indians.  One of my close friends who works as a biologist for WDFW and shares an office with the wardens told me that the WDFW has given up trying to prosecute the natives because it costs so much and they always loose.  They will hunt with the most modern weapons and equipment but show up in court in feathers and beads smoking the pipe.

Not only are they not going to fight or prosecute this, WDFW is told to not talk about it to the everyday sportsman and not to blame the lack of special permits and reduced animal numbers to the everyday sportsman because they dont want to referee a holy-war!  If the fisherman and hunters in this state really realized the cost of all of this they would go bizerk!  The sportsman is flipping the bill for all of the management and resource and a small number of individuals due to race are glutting themselves due to the loop holes of the law.  This problem is much much bigger than most people on this forum really understand and know.  WDFW is totally frustrated and has there hands tied and on top of this, told to keep their mouths shut.  you guys talk about them selling the meat for profit.  Just think what a set of Boone and Crockett antlers fetch on the market.  Just a decent 6x6 bull elk in the 300 inch class brings hundreds and hundreds of dollars. 

They can drive right down to the feeding stations.  Cut the locks off of the gates.  drive right in.  Shoot 5 to 10 elk right in front of the 5th grade class field trip.  Load them in their truck.  Drive out and sell them.  AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU OR WDFW CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!!  NOTHING!!!!

How can a resourse ever be managed like this.  It cant!
Dvolmer your claims are far from reality.  You really must pay a lot of attention to media sensationalizing a story.  Can you provide any facts to base your claims? Your, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy said doesn't hold merit other than to rally the mob.

First of all,  i hunt every year in Washington, Montana, and Wyoming.  My hunting partner who was born and raised here in West Richland graduated from college in Fishing and Wildlife Biology.  He currently works for the state of Montana and i hunt with him every year in Montana and Bi-yearly in Wyoming.  He knows what is going on in Montana with native issues.  My hunting partner here in Washington lives in the Tri-Cities and works for WDFW as a biologist.  Non of these two individuals are friends of friends of my uncles lost cousin.  They are current on the issues that address them in their jobs and in their passion of hunting and fishing.  This thread doesn't even start to address the issues that are way way out of control with native fishing and hunting issues in this state and in Oregon.  Drink all the Kool-Aid you want!  Stick your head in the sand!  Heck, sniff all the glue you want too as far as I care.  Liberals, Wolves, Grizzlies, and natives will be the end of our states hunting before you know it!  Happy hunting!!!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Elkcollector82 on January 03, 2018, 05:42:11 PM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

Outside of Washington, on most of the reservations in Montana, Wyoming, and other western states, is that the Indians can only hunt on there respective reservations.  In Montana and Wyoming a native american cant just go hunt anywhere he wants too.  He can only hunt on the reservations.  If he hunts off of them, then he has to follow the rules of the state that he lives in.  Somehow the treaty that was made with the Indians in our region was for areas way outside of their reservations.  WDFW quit trying to fight this because every time they arrest or ticket a native, they simply go to our liberal court systems and it gets thrown out.  Your tax money and license money was being wasted fighting a fight that could never be won.  Not only are we paying for the lawyers to fight this but we are paying the lawyers to fight for the Indians.  One of my close friends who works as a biologist for WDFW and shares an office with the wardens told me that the WDFW has given up trying to prosecute the natives because it costs so much and they always loose.  They will hunt with the most modern weapons and equipment but show up in court in feathers and beads smoking the pipe.

Not only are they not going to fight or prosecute this, WDFW is told to not talk about it to the everyday sportsman and not to blame the lack of special permits and reduced animal numbers to the everyday sportsman because they dont want to referee a holy-war!  If the fisherman and hunters in this state really realized the cost of all of this they would go bizerk!  The sportsman is flipping the bill for all of the management and resource and a small number of individuals due to race are glutting themselves due to the loop holes of the law.  This problem is much much bigger than most people on this forum really understand and know.  WDFW is totally frustrated and has there hands tied and on top of this, told to keep their mouths shut.  you guys talk about them selling the meat for profit.  Just think what a set of Boone and Crockett antlers fetch on the market.  Just a decent 6x6 bull elk in the 300 inch class brings hundreds and hundreds of dollars. 

They can drive right down to the feeding stations.  Cut the locks off of the gates.  drive right in.  Shoot 5 to 10 elk right in front of the 5th grade class field trip.  Load them in their truck.  Drive out and sell them.  AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU OR WDFW CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!!  NOTHING!!!!

How can a resourse ever be managed like this.  It cant!
Dvolmer your claims are far from reality.  You really must pay a lot of attention to media sensationalizing a story.  Can you provide any facts to base your claims? Your, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy said doesn't hold merit other than to rally the mob.

First of all,  i hunt every year in Washington, Montana, and Wyoming.  My hunting partner who was born and raised here in West Richland graduated from college in Fishing and Wildlife Biology.  He currently works for the state of Montana and i hunt with him every year in Montana and Bi-yearly in Wyoming.  He knows what is going on in Montana with native issues.  My hunting partner here in Washington lives in the Tri-Cities and works for WDFW as a biologist.  Non of these two individuals are friends of friends of my uncles lost cousin.  They are current on the issues that address them in their jobs and in their passion of hunting and fishing.  This thread doesn't even start to address the issues that are way way out of control with native fishing and hunting issues in this state and in Oregon.  Drink all the Kool-Aid you want!  Stick your head in the sand!  Heck, sniff all the glue you want too as far as I care.  Liberals, Wolves, Grizzlies, and natives will be the end of our states hunting before you know it!  Happy hunting!!!

Donít forget to add miss management of wildlife from wdfw. They are towards the top of that list.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: meatwhack on January 03, 2018, 07:22:58 PM
How about we all just self identify as natives.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on January 03, 2018, 07:33:48 PM
How about we all just self identify as natives.
Whats really sad to me.. is my Father, who is completely against what we have seen tribal members do in our hunting grounds, is now doing a dna test to see how much "native" we have in us so that he might be able to claim something and be able to hunt like they do. He has all but given up on trying to hunt the way our WDF&Wolves wants us to. There is only so many times you can be driving in the hills during early archery season and see 3-4 tribal members jump out of vans/trucks with rifles and drop 8-10 deer then only take backstraps and hindquarters before you either give up or snap. We have seen it 2 times and found multiple other kill sites. Elk are almost non existent in the woods I grew up hunting with my father, south rainer GMU 513. You can drive down into packwood and see the elk but up in 513 if you see 1 elk in a year you are doing pretty dang good! Its very sad that our state has come to this point. Both from poachers and tribal members abusing the rights given to them by our liberal government. hell I have been laughed at up in the white river unit by tribal members while they were gutting a bull elk that they shot in the middle of the road! I have been putting in for that unit for qual and any bull for a long time and have yet to draw! I still go up every year and hunt bears up there but the mucks go up there and shoot elk like no other and now I'm considering investing my points in a different unit!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: KFhunter on January 03, 2018, 07:58:17 PM
I would do it.   I wouldn't hunt the feed lot or sell it, but I'd get a tribal license in a heart beat and hunt my way. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on January 03, 2018, 08:16:17 PM
I would do it.   I wouldn't hunt the feed lot or sell it, but I'd get a tribal license in a heart beat and hunt my way.
It kind of breaks my heart though that it has come to this point for him though. It is what it is I guess. Maybe I will get to hunt the white river unit a lot sooner lol!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: MarkTrail on January 03, 2018, 09:01:24 PM
Dvolmer, trophyhunt, you two guys have seen or heard from people close enough too realize just a small portion that is going on. Thanks for standing up and speaking out.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Elkcollector82 on January 04, 2018, 04:17:44 AM
How about we all just self identify as natives.
Whats really sad to me.. is my Father, who is completely against what we have seen tribal members do in our hunting grounds, is now doing a dna test to see how much "native" we have in us so that he might be able to claim something and be able to hunt like they do. He has all but given up on trying to hunt the way our WDF&Wolves wants us to. There is only so many times you can be driving in the hills during early archery season and see 3-4 tribal members jump out of vans/trucks with rifles and drop 8-10 deer then only take backstraps and hindquarters before you either give up or snap. We have seen it 2 times and found multiple other kill sites. Elk are almost non existent in the woods I grew up hunting with my father, south rainer GMU 513. You can drive down into packwood and see the elk but up in 513 if you see 1 elk in a year you are doing pretty dang good! Its very sad that our state has come to this point. Both from poachers and tribal members abusing the rights given to them by our liberal government. hell I have been laughed at up in the white river unit by tribal members while they were gutting a bull elk that they shot in the middle of the road! I have been putting in for that unit for qual and any bull for a long time and have yet to draw! I still go up every year and hunt bears up there but the mucks go up there and shoot elk like no other and now I'm considering investing my points in a different unit!

Seriously one elk a year in 513 :o  :bash: I think you should seriously change your hunting tactics before coming on here and bashing the natives.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 04, 2018, 05:17:31 AM
Are you doubting his hunting methods or abilities?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: deerlick on January 04, 2018, 01:14:25 PM
How about we all just self identify as natives.


this is what I have been saying. take that to court, how is it possible to loose.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Elkcollector82 on January 04, 2018, 01:31:31 PM
Are you doubting his hunting methods or abilities?

Both. Only seeing one elk a year in 513.  :chuckle: must have super dark tinted windows.  :dunno:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 04, 2018, 01:35:22 PM
 :chuckle:that could be I have never hunted that area before sounds like u see a few more
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 04, 2018, 02:08:25 PM
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.
There is no legal off reservation hunting under treaty rights by natives in Wyoming.  That is a current fact the Crow Nation heavily contests, and may be changed at some point in the future but to date the state has prevailed. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: meatwhack on January 04, 2018, 02:52:37 PM
If a tribe actually managed wildlife they would have more than enough to hunt and sustain themselves on their reservation if they desired to do so. Instead most tribes have slaughtered everything on their reservations due to unregulated hunting and therefore hunt off the reservation where the animals have been managed. Itís pretty easy to see the tribes that care about wildlife management because they have some of the best hunting in the country on their reservations.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on January 04, 2018, 04:38:47 PM
Are you doubting his hunting methods or abilities?

Both. Only seeing one elk a year in 513.  :chuckle: must have super dark tinted windows.  :dunno:
I hike quite a bit in that unit. I also guarantee that I spend more time in that unit than you do every year. Maybe you should take your crappy comments elsewhere and let the grown ups have a conversation instead of trying to bash my comments. Ohh and btw.. with a 15% or lower blacktail kill percentage in that unit I have killed deer in there every year except for this year when I hunted Kapowsin instead. I have seen with my own eyes the "natives" killing more animals up in those hills than you probably have seen in a whole year of scouting and hunting up there.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jackelope on January 04, 2018, 05:06:19 PM
Keep it on track and leave the personal attacks out of it.

 :peep:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on January 04, 2018, 05:50:26 PM
Keep it on track and leave the personal attacks out of it.

 :peep:
you got it. My bad. I shouldn't have let him pull me into that.

Back on topic. We have FAR too many variables ticking away at our herds of animals. Poachers being a big one and the excessive taking of game from other groups as well as the wolves and other apex predators in this state. We need EVERYONE to start reporting the animals they harvest and I mean that as in not just us sportsmen and women but also tribal.
Title: More blood and guts
Post by: Elkcollector82 on January 04, 2018, 07:44:13 PM
Are you doubting his hunting methods or abilities?

Both. Only seeing one elk a year in 513.  :chuckle: must have super dark tinted windows.  :dunno:
I hike quite a bit in that unit. I also guarantee that I spend more time in that unit than you do every year. Maybe you should take your crappy comments elsewhere and let the grown ups have a conversation instead of trying to bash my comments. Ohh and btw.. with a 15% or lower blacktail kill percentage in that unit I have killed deer in there every year except for this year when I hunted Kapowsin instead. I have seen with my own eyes the "natives" killing more animals up in those hills than you probably have seen in a whole year of scouting and hunting up there.

 You blame the natives for driving around and jumping out and shooting 8-10 elk. Well that statement is most likely false. That area is to brushy near the roads. To be able to pull that off. Unless itís in a thinned out area. Even then it most likely was 2-3. Thatís some pretty good shooting to dump 8-10 elk on a dead run through the timber. Should of asked them for shooting tips. You also claim that elk/deer numbers went down over the years. That I agree with. But natives have been doing what they do for a very long time. So letís look at what other things have changed and accured.

 Back in 96. Hound hunting was banned. Banning of hounds to hunt bears and cougars. Noticeably in the first few years nothing was noticed. Letís say year 10 after the ban took place. Everyone started to notice the lack of elk/deer numbers. Now I know your scratching your head at this point. The over population of predators does far more damage to the elk/deer numbers then ANY truck load of natives could do. One single cougar kills an elk/deer a week. Bears do their part on fawns/calfís. Washington state quota is what a few hundred cougars a year. Early season starts September 1st tell December 31. Then late season starts January tell April. But half the units are closed come January 1st.  So in those areas the cougars donít even get a dent put in them. You take 5 cougars out of letís say unit 101. For the 5 taken. How many more Cubs are born. Way more then 5. So the predators will always grow in this state. Bears are a little better managed. But yet season is over November 15th. The wdfw offer very little spring bear tags and only for a select number of units. Thatís a problem. Should be more tags and every unit has a spring bear season. So before you go bashing the natives for shooting an elk on feeding grounds. Maybe you should educate yourself on just how much damage the predators are doing. Thatís not even considering the over population of coyotes and then the wolves.

 Also last year. The wdfw some how miss placed half million fish on cowlitz. Thatís gonna have a huge impact. Again way more then any native can dip, catch or whatever method they use. The wdfw says their hands are tied. Iím sure to a point thatís correct. Yet if the natives are in the spot light to us hunters. It takes it off of wdfw.
 
  You can take it for what itís worth. Are the tactics that a hand full of natives do effect the elk/deer numbers. Yes but very small part.  But the bigger problem is predators hands down. Without predator control. Our elk/deer have no chance.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on January 04, 2018, 07:52:02 PM










Keep it on track and leave the personal attacks out of it.

 :peep:
you got it. My bad. I shouldn't have let him pull me into that.

Back on topic. We have FAR too many variables ticking away at our herds of animals. Poachers being a big one and the excessive taking of game from other groups as well as the wolves and other apex predators in this state. We need EVERYONE to start reporting the animals they harvest and I mean that as in not just us sportsmen and women but also tribal.




x2  :tup:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: cryder on January 06, 2018, 07:04:12 AM
I have a native friend that keeps asking me to go elk hunting with him on tribal lands , never have cuz of the jail time factors , but what would you guys do ? Is this a no no I'm not a state legislature guru , so I don't no , I'll try to find the end of this jiggernot , to check your info , very interested , he gets elk every year so , I'm somewhat interested , or I could just go fishing ?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jennabug on January 06, 2018, 07:58:10 AM
I have a native friend that keeps asking me to go elk hunting with him on tribal lands , never have cuz of the jail time factors , but what would you guys do ? Is this a no no I'm not a state legislature guru , so I don't no , I'll try to find the end of this jiggernot , to check your info , very interested , he gets elk every year so , I'm somewhat interested , or I could just go fishing ?

I suspect it would depend on the tribe. My father in law is registered Yakama, and my husband can go with him on tribal land as a family helper.

P.S. they've hunted elk together for 3 years there and have yet to bring one home.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: h20hunter on January 06, 2018, 09:05:44 AM
 :yeah:

If he is your friend and an ethical hunter I say why not go.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dscubame on January 06, 2018, 10:27:22 AM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Jpmiller on January 06, 2018, 12:34:57 PM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.

Me too.

Until I realized I could make deer and elk a maistsy of my diet. I probably wouldn't eat much beef again. My family could go through at least a few deer and an elk in a year.

Come to think of it my mom would probably thing having a deer and elk in her freezer was nice too so I could get her some as well.

It's real easy for my to see how one person shoots multiple animals a year.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 06, 2018, 12:57:46 PM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.

Me too.

Until I realized I could make deer and elk a maistsy of my diet. I probably wouldn't eat much beef again. My family could go through at least a few deer and an elk in a year.

Come to think of it my mom would probably thing having a deer and elk in her freezer was nice too so I could get her some as well.

It's real easy for my to see how one person shoots multiple animals a year.
There's more than a few on here that travel to three or more states a year killing elk in all three as well as deer.  But they also have to report harvests so numbers can be used for management.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Jpmiller on January 06, 2018, 04:31:13 PM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.

Me too.

Until I realized I could make deer and elk a maistsy of my diet. I probably wouldn't eat much beef again. My family could go through at least a few deer and an elk in a year.

Come to think of it my mom would probably thing having a deer and elk in her freezer was nice too so I could get her some as well.

It's real easy for my to see how one person shoots multiple animals a year.
There's more than a few on here that travel to three or more states a year killing elk in all three as well as deer.  But they also have to report harvests so numbers can be used for management.

In a perfect world there would be record but hunting without a license year round makes data gathering difficult. I also don't like the stories I hear of animals being sold or of waste of meat, but I think the taking of multiple animals at a time or over the course of a year is more understandable than outrageous.
Title: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on January 06, 2018, 07:29:45 PM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.

Me too.

Until I realized I could make deer and elk a maistsy of my diet. I probably wouldn't eat much beef again. My family could go through at least a few deer and an elk in a year.

Come to think of it my mom would probably thing having a deer and elk in her freezer was nice too so I could get her some as well.

It's real easy for my to see how one person shoots multiple animals a year.
There's more than a few on here that travel to three or more states a year killing elk in all three as well as deer.  But they also have to report harvests so numbers can be used for management.

In a perfect world there would be record but hunting without a license year round makes data gathering difficult. I also don't like the stories I hear of animals being sold or of waste of meat, but I think the taking of multiple animals at a time or over the course of a year is more understandable than outrageous.

My cousin worked as a prison guard in Orofino Idaho for 20+ years and use to clean up the reservation houses on projects. Said there would be stacks of rotten untouched carcuses in the backyards of these homes. Stewards of the land my ó-
Title: More blood and guts
Post by: ribka on January 06, 2018, 09:10:29 PM
I would hunt year around if I could but not at the bait station aka feed lot.  It would result in one dead elk every 1.5 years as that is what my family consumes.

Me too.

Until I realized I could make deer and elk a maistsy of my diet. I probably wouldn't eat much beef again. My family could go through at least a few deer and an elk in a year.

Come to think of it my mom would probably thing having a deer and elk in her freezer was nice too so I could get her some as well.

It's real easy for my to see how one person shoots multiple animals a year.
There's more than a few on here that travel to three or more states a year killing elk in all three as well as deer.  But they also have to report harvests so numbers can be used for management.

In a perfect world there would be record but hunting without a license year round makes data gathering difficult. I also don't like the stories I hear of animals being sold or of waste of meat, but I think the taking of multiple animals at a time or over the course of a year is more understandable than outrageous.

My cousin worked as a prison guard in Orofino Idaho for 20+ years and use to clean up the reservation houses on projects. Said there would be stacks of rotten untouched carcuses in the backyards of these homes. Stewards of the land my ó-.

i grew up next to a chippewa rez in NW WI and used to play on rez

Revealing how dogs, horses and sometimes children are treated , plus the game wastage, - Take a drive out sometimes on the special land and let your eyes and ears take in what is really happening -real shame

replying to your stewards of the land remark
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on January 31, 2018, 03:03:50 AM
I'm going to leave this here and say no white guy will specifically drive to the Nile feeding station to shoot elk in the daylight.

If a white guy poaches deer or elk on public land this time of year, he does it at night unless it is in his own yard.

You guys do know that it's not just white people that hunt public ground.

I'm white, but it makes this thread sound kind of ignorant when I keep reading about white people vs natives.

I don't know why you need to see pictures? We've all seen dead deer and elk and we all know that this goes on, the real unfortunate thing is that we live next to one of the greediest tribes in the state if not country and they do whatever they want whenever they want and don't give any thought to where the majority of the funding for these resources is coming from. The Yakamas have done a lot for the salmon and steelhead, but they are raping and pillaging our deer and elk herds without a second thought.

I know of a guy that was in a meeting with the Yakamas about the Muckleshoot tribe coming over the pass and hunting. In that meeting one of the Yakama elders told the whole meeting that the Yaks will have to shoot every deer and elk so that the Muckleshoots won't come over and hunt their ceded land. That kind of sums up the thought process that goes on over there. I'm not saying that all of them are like this, but the ones that are have branded natives with a horrible reputation in most of the outdoor communities
I doubt that was ever said, an I am pretty sure that this meeting never happened in the first place
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on January 31, 2018, 03:20:48 AM
Cavemann,

I think we agree.

As I said, I think the US gov't should use EVERY available lever to renegotiate the treaties.   

And I certainly don't think that having a few people harvest wayyyyyyy more than what they need is an OK plan. 

But, a deal is a deal. So let's use the leverage we have to renegotiate......   because we can't just walk away from the treaty.
Id be willing to support a pay off, give each member 100,000 to follow state rules off the reservation, including all waters.
If any member took the money, they would no longer be a member either
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on January 31, 2018, 03:36:33 AM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

This is an interesting point...the other day I spoke with an enrolled member down here on the yakama res who told me he asked someone on the council whether he could sell the meat from elk he shoots and was told if he is selling it to feed his family it is just another way he is providing a living....which I guess in principle I do agree with but the problem I have with it is the extremely finite nature of the resource he is utilizing. Wild game can be so easily overharvested, and cannot be propagated to match harvest in the same ways domesticated livestock can...

I asked the fellow how hard it would be for him to harvest say, 10 elk in a year,  and he kind of just chuckled and said 10? That's easy.

In all fairness I do believe this man is providing meat for several families not just his own, however, he had a medium sized cow elk in his truck bed and told me he shot a 6x7 bull as well as another bull at the same time way up oak creek somewhere the week before. And had already bagged multiple cows before these... But he only had until the 1st to take cows so he was going back up..........

I say all of this not to incite jealousy or hatred, but simply to state the obvious: if there are even only one or two dozen members of every tribe "playing by the rules" which this man is, doing this and harvesting upwards of a dozen elk every year or more, how can we hope to see and enjoy a thriving population of these animals for generations to come?
I can bet that no councilmen ever said that about selling game, it's  against our law to do so
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on January 31, 2018, 03:38:16 AM
The bashing never ends.   So sad.  You canít pick your parents, when or where you are born. Some are born to privilege some to poverty.   Some are working and never getting ahead, some have no worries or wants. Just because it is not fair to you doesnít mean itís not fair. Get educated and stop the hate. Yes Iím 100% European decent. My family moved onto the Yakama Rez in 1917 on my motherís side. 1931 on my fathers side. I am the 4 th generation of Satus area farmers. I have no more rights on the Rez than someone living in Seattle . I have seen the good and bad in Native and non Native. Itís easy to point fingures at the Natives cause they do hunt in the daytime within their treaty rights . There is way more damage done at night by non natives. I shake my head at how fast members of this forum throw out the whole box when itís a limited few who are rotten.   SO SAD. NUFF SAID
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Thank you
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on January 31, 2018, 03:39:44 AM
Well its good to know that in his taking of 10 or so elk he is probably also killing a fair amount of pregnant cows. Kind of a warm, cozy feeling.
So the master hunters are excluded? They kill pregnant cows as well
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on January 31, 2018, 03:52:06 AM
o
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

Outside of Washington, on most of the reservations in Montana, Wyoming, and other western states, is that the Indians can only hunt on there respective reservations.  In Montana and Wyoming a native american cant just go hunt anywhere he wants too.  He can only hunt on the reservations.  If he hunts off of them, then he has to follow the rules of the state that he lives in.  Somehow the treaty that was made with the Indians in our region was for areas way outside of their reservations.  WDFW quit trying to fight this because every time they arrest or ticket a native, they simply go to our liberal court systems and it gets thrown out.  Your tax money and license money was being wasted fighting a fight that could never be won.  Not only are we paying for the lawyers to fight this but we are paying the lawyers to fight for the Indians.  One of my close friends who works as a biologist for WDFW and shares an office with the wardens told me that the WDFW has given up trying to prosecute the natives because it costs so much and they always loose.  They will hunt with the most modern weapons and equipment but show up in court in feathers and beads smoking the pipe.

Not only are they not going to fight or prosecute this, WDFW is told to not talk about it to the everyday sportsman and not to blame the lack of special permits and reduced animal numbers to the everyday sportsman because they dont want to referee a holy-war!  If the fisherman and hunters in this state really realized the cost of all of this they would go bizerk!  The sportsman is flipping the bill for all of the management and resource and a small number of individuals due to race are glutting themselves due to the loop holes of the law.  This problem is much much bigger than most people on this forum really understand and know.  WDFW is totally frustrated and has there hands tied and on top of this, told to keep their mouths shut.  you guys talk about them selling the meat for profit.  Just think what a set of Boone and Crockett antlers fetch on the market.  Just a decent 6x6 bull elk in the 300 inch class brings hundreds and hundreds of dollars. 

They can drive right down to the feeding stations.  Cut the locks off of the gates.  drive right in.  Shoot 5 to 10 elk right in front of the 5th grade class field trip.  Load them in their truck.  Drive out and sell them.  AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU OR WDFW CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!!  NOTHING!!!!

How can a resourse ever be managed like this.  It cant!
So much for the rules here, bashing even by the moderators
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on January 31, 2018, 04:57:16 AM
BASH. BASH. BASH. WOW. HOW SAD.  Educate vs Hate. Different tribes have different treaties.  Some tribes can hunt only within their Rez boundaries.  Other tribes retained their traditional hunting and gathering areas outside of their Rez boundaries. I still believe  that the hate is rooted in envy. I know I would love to have their fishing and hunting rights. I tried to give a nice farm cow that had just broken itís leg to my Native neighbors  they declined. Said they never eat beef. Only deer and elk. I thought cool. Thatís great.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 31, 2018, 05:37:03 AM
Everyone needs to take part in Wildlife conservation.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 31, 2018, 06:10:50 AM
BASH. BASH. BASH. WOW. HOW SAD.  Educate vs Hate. Different tribes have different treaties.  Some tribes can hunt only within their Rez boundaries.  Other tribes retained their traditional hunting and gathering areas outside of their Rez boundaries. I still believe  that the hate is rooted in envy. I know I would love to have their fishing and hunting rights. I tried to give a nice farm cow that had just broken itís leg to my Native neighbors  they declined. Said they never eat beef. Only deer and elk. I thought cool. Thatís great.
Envy, get over yourself.  This is about conservation of OUR resources, this whole racist crap doesn't have any affect, the word is over used.  If you pay attention it's about the deer and elk herds being managed so there is enough for all of us to harvest them.  Most people on this thread realize that it's a small majority that take more than their god given right, it's a joke to those members.  I'll say because of your naive stance that your either uneducated about what really happens within the small pocket of tribal members, your a member or you have the sneaky privilege to hunt within that group??   
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 31, 2018, 06:16:12 AM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

This is an interesting point...the other day I spoke with an enrolled member down here on the yakama res who told me he asked someone on the council whether he could sell the meat from elk he shoots and was told if he is selling it to feed his family it is just another way he is providing a living....which I guess in principle I do agree with but the problem I have with it is the extremely finite nature of the resource he is utilizing. Wild game can be so easily overharvested, and cannot be propagated to match harvest in the same ways domesticated livestock can...

I asked the fellow how hard it would be for him to harvest say, 10 elk in a year,  and he kind of just chuckled and said 10? That's easy.

In all fairness I do believe this man is providing meat for several families not just his own, however, he had a medium sized cow elk in his truck bed and told me he shot a 6x7 bull as well as another bull at the same time way up oak creek somewhere the week before. And had already bagged multiple cows before these... But he only had until the 1st to take cows so he was going back up..........

I say all of this not to incite jealousy or hatred, but simply to state the obvious: if there are even only one or two dozen members of every tribe "playing by the rules" which this man is, doing this and harvesting upwards of a dozen elk every year or more, how can we hope to see and enjoy a thriving population of these animals for generations to come?
I can bet that no councilmen ever said that about selling game, it's  against our law to do so
Ok, so lets talk about selling the game being against your law.  let me ask you an honest question then,  Do you guys enforce that law?  I'll answer that for you, hell no!  I'm sure you've heard of the Jerky guy, AW. How much does he make a year on selling jerky?  I just saw a facebook photo with him standing in front of a full smoker full of elk meat.  And him saying he was all sold out and needs to resupply.  What does a guy do with 25 to over 100 bull elk a year, he sells it.  How about the tribal members that killed elk and deer weekly and drove to Tacoma to sell it to a big time criminal?  Please don't tell me the tribe or the elders didn't know about that one!!!!!!!  Be honest here, these are perfectly honest questions, no bashing or racist remarks were said. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on January 31, 2018, 06:51:51 AM
BASH. BASH. BASH. WOW. HOW SAD.  Educate vs Hate. Different tribes have different treaties.  Some tribes can hunt only within their Rez boundaries.  Other tribes retained their traditional hunting and gathering areas outside of their Rez boundaries. I still believe  that the hate is rooted in envy. I know I would love to have their fishing and hunting rights. I tried to give a nice farm cow that had just broken itís leg to my Native neighbors  they declined. Said they never eat beef. Only deer and elk. I thought cool. Thatís great.
Envy, get over yourself.  This is about conservation of OUR resources, this whole racist crap doesn't have any affect, the word is over used.  If you pay attention it's about the deer and elk herds being managed so there is enough for all of us to harvest them.  Most people on this thread realize that it's a small majority that take more than their god given right, it's a joke to those members.  I'll say because of your naive stance that your either uneducated about what really happens within the small pocket of tribal members, your a member or you have the sneaky privilege to hunt within that group??


I am neither a tribal member nor do I have any more privilege than you. I should be the one who feels wronged. Yet I donít    I have spent my whole life on the Yakama Rez. 4 th generation non native farmer I rent ground from Yakama Nation   I get my irrigation water through a B I A project Wapato Irrigation. NAIVE. NO.  I have a lifetime of experience. As with any group of people.  Most are very good    There are unfortunately a small few who make the rest look bad.   
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on January 31, 2018, 07:04:32 AM
BASH. BASH. BASH. WOW. HOW SAD.  Educate vs Hate. Different tribes have different treaties.  Some tribes can hunt only within their Rez boundaries.  Other tribes retained their traditional hunting and gathering areas outside of their Rez boundaries. I still believe  that the hate is rooted in envy. I know I would love to have their fishing and hunting rights. I tried to give a nice farm cow that had just broken itís leg to my Native neighbors  they declined. Said they never eat beef. Only deer and elk. I thought cool. Thatís great.
Envy, get over yourself.  This is about conservation of OUR resources, this whole racist crap doesn't have any affect, the word is over used.  If you pay attention it's about the deer and elk herds being managed so there is enough for all of us to harvest them.  Most people on this thread realize that it's a small majority that take more than their god given right, it's a joke to those members.  I'll say because of your naive stance that your either uneducated about what really happens within the small pocket of tribal members, your a member or you have the sneaky privilege to hunt within that group??


I am neither a tribal member nor do I have any more privilege than you. I should be the one who feels wronged. Yet I donít    I have spent my whole life on the Yakama Rez. 4 th generation non native farmer I rent ground from Yakama Nation   I get my irrigation water through a B I A project Wapato Irrigation. NAIVE. NO.  I have a lifetime of experience. As with any group of people.  Most are very good    There are unfortunately a small few who make the rest look bad.
And that is what we are talking about here, the small few that create such conflict.  It's not about the entire tribe, we are not a bunch of racist here, just guys/gals who want equal balance.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: gaddy on January 31, 2018, 04:04:17 PM
Equal balance= playing by the same rules
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on January 31, 2018, 06:46:25 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. To instill change you have to prove the unbalance. Nobody right now is doing that, nobody. To show the impact of a few bad apples, to show the impact of someone who abuses our rights by selling, to show the impact of selling whole game in general whether here on or around our rez or further you've got to show the impact it's having.

Nobody and I mean nobody is doing it.

I DO NOT SUPPORT REPEAL, CHANGE OR ABOLISHMENT OF MY RIGHTS OR ANY OTHER YAKAMA MEMBER, BUT I do support science proving that abuse and violation of OUR laws needs to be taken seriously.

I agree and see it first hand that subherds and herds cannot support the specific targeting of a single sex, but it's going to take science to open the eyes of those in charge.

If there's 4 bulls in 1 subherds and all 4 bulls are taken there's nothing left to increase the subherd, therefore pushing them out of the area or slowly dying and decreasing over time due to the nonreplenishment of a male specie.

You take 4 bulls out of a herd and continue to decrease the single sex specie pretty soon there is no herd over time.

That's science, but I'm not a scientist and I can scream to the high heavens as I've done before and nothings going to happen as I don't have some paper on my wall.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Naches Sportsman on January 31, 2018, 07:15:25 PM
Plat, as a whole, how would you feel if someone based a thesis off of a tribes hunting statistics and studied what the impacts of that tribe may be against elk and deer? I think talking about hunters and tribal harvest would be a good study to see what the real impacts are. It may be tough as there isn't a solid way to get harvest numbers, but if one did have a way, they'd be in good luck.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Jpmiller on January 31, 2018, 07:16:32 PM
I, along with most on this site, get upset about predator management, tag allocation, season dates, bag limits, closed units, etc. Why would any native group chose to give up it's hunting rights to be governed by Wdfw? Would any of you do so in their situation?

There are some bad non native poachers, should our hunting rights as non natives change due to that?

I would love to see a harvest report from natives but logistically that's a pretty tall order. I think some self reporting would help even in a limited capacity but honestly who here thinks Wdfw can do anything useful with whatever information the tribes would give them?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on January 31, 2018, 07:49:41 PM
Really, why is science needed when all it takes is common sense to know right from wrong? Especially in cases where the natives are in blatant violation of THEIR OWN LAWS!  (selling deer and elk meat)

The Yakama tribe is the only tribe I know of that has a year around season on deer and elk with absolutely no limit to how many each person can kill. Some members kill only what they need to feed their families, but others kill as many as they can and sell the meat, and the heads/antlers.

A while back a great solution was posted in another thread. The WDFW needs to simply adopt the same hunting seasons and regulations that the Yakama's go by, for the areas that they hunt. It makes perfect sense, since according to the treaty the tribe and citizens of the United States are supposed to hunt "in common" with each other.

So to me that means we all should go by the same rules. Since the Yakama tribe don't follow our seasons and rules when hunting off the reservation, then we have no choice but to follow theirs.

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ctwiggs1 on January 31, 2018, 07:59:02 PM
There are some bad non native poachers, should our hunting rights as non natives change due to that?

The difference is that we enforce our laws (kind of).

That being said, I am with PlateauNDN: I do think that the treaties that are signed need to be honored the same as our constitutional rights.  You canít talk big about 2A in one breath and then talk about how the tribes shouldnít have what they have in the next. 

There are a lot of complex issues especially on the wet side.  Tribes take all the fish, but it turns out that tribes also run hatcheries better.

Tribes kill a LOT of elk over here, but the Muckleshoot just made a massive purchase into logging grounds that they will likely retain forever.  Iím not wild about it, but it does show that their focus isnít just casinos and fireworks.

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on January 31, 2018, 08:01:29 PM
Common sense??? We're gonna use common sense to be the rule of law now? Ok, well common sense tells me that the US is wasting BILLIONS on ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS so let's round them all up and deport them, NOW.

Common sense tells me, oh man I can go on and on...
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: ctwiggs1 on January 31, 2018, 08:10:25 PM
Common sense??? We're gonna use common sense to be the rule of law now? Ok, well common sense tells me that the US is wasting BILLIONS on ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS so let's round them all up and deport them, NOW.

Common sense tells me, oh man I can go on and on...

To be fair, we are wasting even more billions on our own citizens.....
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on January 31, 2018, 08:17:59 PM
Ok, true equality, fine, let's do away with the constitution and the treaties altogether and submit to a similar state like a communist state. All citizens treated equal.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 06:09:39 AM
Can anyone show me where to look up the region 3 elk damage kill permits from last year? Is that scientific management? Killing pregnant cows because they cross an imaginary line onto historic winter range,  not some detrimental feeding station...... Talk about more blood and guts!
So your comparing 25 permits for master hunters to what goes on in the natches area?  That's quite a stretch TbaR. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 06:10:51 AM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

This is an interesting point...the other day I spoke with an enrolled member down here on the yakama res who told me he asked someone on the council whether he could sell the meat from elk he shoots and was told if he is selling it to feed his family it is just another way he is providing a living....which I guess in principle I do agree with but the problem I have with it is the extremely finite nature of the resource he is utilizing. Wild game can be so easily overharvested, and cannot be propagated to match harvest in the same ways domesticated livestock can...

I asked the fellow how hard it would be for him to harvest say, 10 elk in a year,  and he kind of just chuckled and said 10? That's easy.

In all fairness I do believe this man is providing meat for several families not just his own, however, he had a medium sized cow elk in his truck bed and told me he shot a 6x7 bull as well as another bull at the same time way up oak creek somewhere the week before. And had already bagged multiple cows before these... But he only had until the 1st to take cows so he was going back up..........

I say all of this not to incite jealousy or hatred, but simply to state the obvious: if there are even only one or two dozen members of every tribe "playing by the rules" which this man is, doing this and harvesting upwards of a dozen elk every year or more, how can we hope to see and enjoy a thriving population of these animals for generations to come?
I can bet that no councilmen ever said that about selling game, it's  against our law to do so
Ok, so lets talk about selling the game being against your law.  let me ask you an honest question then,  Do you guys enforce that law?  I'll answer that for you, hell no!  I'm sure you've heard of the Jerky guy, AW. How much does he make a year on selling jerky?  I just saw a facebook photo with him standing in front of a full smoker full of elk meat.  And him saying he was all sold out and needs to resupply.  What does a guy do with 25 to over 100 bull elk a year, he sells it.  How about the tribal members that killed elk and deer weekly and drove to Tacoma to sell it to a big time criminal?  Please don't tell me the tribe or the elders didn't know about that one!!!!!!!  Be honest here, these are perfectly honest questions, no bashing or racist remarks were said.
Still waiting for an answer Time?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 06:54:58 AM
Yes and no to the questions. Do they know about every little thing going on? No. Is 1 member on their radar for selling animals in Tacoma? No. Why would they know about it? Wdfw never came down and said here, this member is selling over in puget sound.

I can honestly say I brought the book and case up to 1 council member and they didn't know what i was talking about a couple years ago.

Do they know a tribal member is selling jerky? Probably. Do they plan to stop it? Probably not. Last I heard he actually had a business license for his jerky.

Again, as I said before, you have to affect change at a cultural level with science.

Most don't know this is a renewable resource that is a slow renewal resource. They don't believe it can be impacted enough to be detrimental. 

But, hey what do I know, I don't have a piece of paper on my wall
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: 92xj on February 01, 2018, 07:01:33 AM

Most don't know this is a renewable resource that is a slow renewal resource. They don't believe it can be impacted enough to be detrimental. 

But, hey what do I know, I don't have a piece of paper on my wall

Indians don't know about bison?
Weird.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 07:09:10 AM
Honestly, I've given you honestly. I know for a fact several council members didn't know about the person going back and forth to puget sound. Please, someone explain to me why they would know about it? Hell, I didn't know so why should they know?

There was a conviction, a book, newspaper articles and I didn't know until HW brought it up. But somehow our leaders are supposed to know?

There wasn't an article here in our area showing names of crimes and people involved? I don't recall hearing wdfw forwarding info to our l.e. dept for possible charges.

The person was never arrested so how can it be expected that we know what occurred a couple hundred miles away?

We are the largest tribe in wa. State and I don't know even a quarter of the people, but somehow I'm expected to know who's doing what and how?.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 07:10:37 AM
Yes and no to the questions. Do they know about every little thing going on? No. Is 1 member on their radar for selling animals in Tacoma? No. Why would they know about it? Wdfw never came down and said here, this member is selling over in puget sound.

I can honestly say I brought the book and case up to 1 council member and they didn't know what i was talking about a couple years ago.

Do they know a tribal member is selling jerky? Probably. Do they plan to stop it? Probably not. Last I heard he actually had a business license for his jerky.

Again, as I said before, you have to affect change at a cultural level with science.

Most don't know this is a renewable resource that is a slow renewal resource. They don't believe it can be impacted enough to be detrimental. 

But, hey what do I know, I don't have a piece of paper on my wall
I appreciate you responding Plat, I always want to hear your opinion.  I still a bit confused about the selling of elk jerky even with a business license.  If they were farmed elk that would make sense, but these are wild state owned elk that he is profiting from.  I'm not sure that is covered in the treaty?  I can't  believe it was one member only killing and selling deer and elk to the Tacoma guy, but I could be wrong. Again, I appreciate your comments.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 07:11:35 AM

Most don't know this is a renewable resource that is a slow renewal resource. They don't believe it can be impacted enough to be detrimental. 

But, hey what do I know, I don't have a piece of paper on my wall

Indians don't know about bison?
Weird.

Most do. You're not comprehending what I'm saying. If wdfw is saying the elk herds are flourishing in the colockum and are over capacity are they correct?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 07:13:44 AM
The Yakima elk herds are over capacity per wdfw. Now, a lawmaker reads and hears that they're not going to be concerned.

So tell me, what's it going to take to change that?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 07:14:32 AM
How do you show that a herd is not healthy just because numbers say different?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 07:23:51 AM
Can anyone show me where to look up the region 3 elk damage kill permits from last year? Is that scientific management? Killing pregnant cows because they cross an imaginary line onto historic winter range,  not some detrimental feeding station...... Talk about more blood and guts!
So your comparing 25 permits for master hunters to what goes on in the natches area?  That's quite a stretch TbaR.
Not at all, those are master hunter draw tags.  I was referring very specifically to kill permits. (Quite possibly the just behind permit cuts and archery season alteration)
Ok, I'm not familiar with kill permits. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 07:27:51 AM
How do you show that a herd is not healthy just because numbers say different?
I don't have a piece of paper on the wall either so my thoughts are just what they are, but this was one of the worst years for seeing elk during early and late archery seasons that we have seen in many years.  And the deer are just gone.  My dad and I, and yes he's a road hunter, only saw one elk all early season.  The late season was better the first couple days but after that it was a ghost town.  Something is going on, the numbers seem way down to our group.  I would find it very hard to believe the elk are over populated in the nile, bumping and natches.  but again, no paper on my wall either.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 07:42:55 AM
We can agree that wdfw saying the Yakima elk herd is over capacity, but how do you prove it? How do you say and show the herd is unhealthy? Wdfw is praising their seasons, bag limits and restrictions they out in place and say they've managed the herds to oversustainable numbers, but people here are saying different?

What do you, as a group, do to prove them wrong? How do you change the opinion of the people put in charge of monitoring and regulating the herds? How do you dispel them? Because to everybody above them that's in charge, the policy makers, everything is on the up & up.

They'll look at the reports and numbers and say how can anyone user group be causing such a detrimental impact as you've said but it doesn't show here in these reports? Wdfw would counter and say, "theyre animals and always moving, theyre changing habits based on pressure."

They'd also say, "the oportunity to harvest is there and it's not a guarantee to fill your permit just because you have 1."
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on February 01, 2018, 07:47:39 AM
I don't believe they're saying there's too many elk. Antlerless permits were drastically cut last year, and this year the proposal shows no antlerless early archery season in any of the 300 units except 334 and 335. That's a pretty major change to a season that people have become accustomed to hunting over many years.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on February 01, 2018, 07:57:01 AM
I don't believe they're saying there's too many elk. Antlerless permits were drastically cut last year, and this year the proposal shows no antlerless early archery season in any of the 300 units except 334 and 335. That's a pretty major change to a season that people have become accustomed to hunting over many years.
Those changes were because of "winter kill" aka lead poisoning by kill permits.

Well whatever the reason, there's obviously no longer too many elk, or antlerless hunts wouldn't be cut down to almost nothing.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 07:59:00 AM
I read it here all the time. These herds those herds this herd has numbers to support a season and tags. Hell, so who's right? The lawmakers of HW or wdfw? I hear it all the time on here, "just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there" or "they're pressured, go deep & steep". Well, if they're not historically there then where'd they go?

If numbers are down, why did wdfw open up a late season in the wenas?

Let's say goats? The blazed ridge herd has way more goats to support hunts, but no hunts. The alpine wilderness can support hunts but no hunts.

We see the numbers cuz we're there, but how do we change the opinion of wdfw?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 08:00:14 AM
Wdfw changes seasons as they see fit, is that nothing new? How me a report that doesn't say the yakima herd is in dire straights?

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: baker5150 on February 01, 2018, 08:11:59 AM
Plat,

I think we can all agree, that any report, regardless of who drafted it, will not be, and never will be accurate unless WDFW and the Tribes REQUIRE ALL hunters to report their harvest. 

It's simple, no license without first reporting.  Lets get some real numbers.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 08:46:10 AM
Is anybody going to connect the dots on what I'm saying?  Science by wdfw says there's plenty of game. But people here say there is not, so who's right?

People say the abuse and illegal activity by members of my tribe are having an adverse affect but can anyone prove it?

You want change, you want things to get dealt with then prove thru science that the pact by so few is having a detrimental impact.

Because right now science says it's not and the herds are thriving.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on February 01, 2018, 08:54:59 AM
Atta Boy to you Plat NDN. Itís emotion not science. Even if there is ď Scientific evidence ď. If your mind is already  made up, a person will say the evidence is biased because it doesnít line up with their beliefs. aka. Donít bother me with the facts. My minds already made up. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on February 01, 2018, 09:05:05 AM
It's not all about science. In fact the majority of wildlife management is not and never will be based on science. It's based on basically what people want. And we, as hunters, want elk to be plentiful so we can hunt them, and eat them. Now farmers on the other hand, in general, want less elk, as elk can cost them money.

Anyway, it's more about right and wrong. Is it right for one person to kill, let's just say, 30 trophy bull elk, in one year, for the purpose of selling the heads/antlers? Perhaps not even taking the meat, or if he does take the meat, he sells it too.

So this is the kind of thing that happens, and it's legal, at least according to the Washington state law. So is this right, even if it can't be scientifically proven to be detrimental to the state's elk populations?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 01, 2018, 09:23:15 AM
Really?  WDFW likes science?  Look at the cougar seasons and quotas or no OTC spring bear hunt.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 09:29:46 AM
So scientific methods used to set seasons or policy for that matter isn't what wdfw uses? Hmmmm.......ok, my mistake
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 10:03:33 AM
Right, wrong, yes or no? Since when did emotion become apart of how regulations are set? Sure we know greed, liberal agenda and other activist type groups have an impact and voice on how things are set but can you prove they are?

Can you prove ranchers/farmers are funneling funds to get what they want from policy makers? You know it's happening but can it be proven?

Knowing and proving are two different things.

I know what happens as far as abuse and illegal activity but can I prove it? Sure, with enough time, money and resources I could but do I have enough time to do so? No, I dont.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 10:13:55 AM
It's not all about science. In fact the majority of wildlife management is not and never will be based on science. It's based on basically what people want. And we, as hunters, want elk to be plentiful so we can hunt them, and eat them. Now farmers on the other hand, in general, want less elk, as elk can cost them money.

Anyway, it's more about right and wrong. Is it right for one person to kill, let's just say, 30 trophy bull elk, in one year, for the purpose of selling the heads/antlers? Perhaps not even taking the meat, or if he does take the meat, he sells it too.

So this is the kind of thing that happens, and it's legal, at least according to the Washington state law. So is this right, even if it can't be scientifically proven to be detrimental to the state's elk populations?
agree, that is the point.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 10:36:42 AM
I wish Plat could be chief!!!   
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Gringo31 on February 01, 2018, 11:34:48 AM
Quote
You want change, you want things to get dealt with then prove thru science that the pact by so few is having a detrimental impact.

I appreciate you gentlemen having an honest discussion with only limited amounts of knuckle dragging going on.  I will say with the quote above that to prove through science, you need data.  It's hard to guess with data when there are poor records of actual harvest.  There is a separate but equal attitude (and that might be a stretch) but it's not unless both sides share actual numbers that someone could make sound decisions.   :twocents:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 11:46:55 AM
You prove it by showing the, you know what...forget it. If some can't look and comprehend what I'm saying then why keep trying...
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Gringo31 on February 01, 2018, 11:53:58 AM
Plat,
I appreciate your view AND voice.  My hope would be to work together on this.  I think the forum may be one of the very few opportunities to even communicate the issue.  I do understand that having to hear all the native bashing year after year gets old, but I think progress has been made in educating many to the rights, treaties etc. 

My greatest pet peeve is making someone upset accidentally.  I'm ok if I do it on purpose, but hate accidental  :chuckle:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on February 01, 2018, 01:17:04 PM
100 percent agree.   

Plat, you know how many of us value your voice andd perspective.   

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 01:30:20 PM
100 percent agree.   

Plat, you know how many of us value your voice andd perspective.
I told you plat!!!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on February 01, 2018, 01:42:58 PM
100 percent agree.   

Plat, you know how many of us value your voice andd perspective.
I told you Joe!!!

Do tell!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Rainier10 on February 01, 2018, 02:33:23 PM
How about we look at it from this angle?

Nobody wants to give up their rights.  I know if I had the right to hunt longer and for more animals I would not want to give that option up.  I also know that I don't want to give up my right to free speech or my right to bear arms.

Do I think that there should be some limits on the right to bear arms? Yes, in today's day and age definitely yes.  It just makes sense.


So if the tribes want to put some sort of limit on what they take based on today's day and age I think that is something that could be addressed without giving up their tribal rights.

One more thing that I think is really important is I think there is over harvest by some natives but I would bet a ton of money that there is more over harvest done by non natives.  I also believe that we have rules about that over harvest and we are not enforcing them.  Just look at the guy from operation cody that many here say was buying elk from natives and selling that.  He got home arrest for a few months for being involved in the taking of hundreds if not thousands of game animals.  We really need to lobby to have the rules we have enforced better.

How about we get our house in order before we get so amped up over what others are doing?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Bows4huntn on February 01, 2018, 03:40:26 PM
Plat, maybe I'm misunderstanding one of the posts you have made and if so please feel free to correct me. It seems that many people are aware of a certain person from your tribe who is selling elk jerky,which seems to be against tribal law. And In reading one of your posts you stated something to the effect of the tribe was probably not going to do anything about it. And you seemed to justify this lack of enforcement being just fine because of wdfw saying this herd is above carrying capacity and there seems to be no scientific proof that this individual is having a negative effect on the herd. Since when is it ok to break the law as long as no one can prove you caused any damage while doing it? Would be the same as saying we shouldn't charge all the non native elk poachers because the herd size hasn't been impacted!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: baker5150 on February 01, 2018, 03:52:21 PM
How about we look at it from this angle?

Nobody wants to give up their rights.  I know if I had the right to hunt longer and for more animals I would not want to give that option up.  I also know that I don't want to give up my right to free speech or my right to bear arms.

Do I think that there should be some limits on the right to bear arms? Yes, in today's day and age definitely yes.  It just makes sense.


So if the tribes want to put some sort of limit on what they take based on today's day and age I think that is something that could be addressed without giving up their tribal rights.

One more thing that I think is really important is I think there is over harvest by some natives but I would bet a ton of money that there is more over harvest done by non natives.  I also believe that we have rules about that over harvest and we are not enforcing them.  Just look at the guy from operation cody that many here say was buying elk from natives and selling that.  He got home arrest for a few months for being involved in the taking of hundreds if not thousands of game animals.  We really need to lobby to have the rules we have enforced better.

How about we get our house in order before we get so amped up over what others are doing?

Basically the same angle...

And thinking there is an overharvest by natives or non-natives is irrelevant, opinions don't matter.  Like Plat said, over, and over, and over, there needs to be scientific proof.

Which is why we need to REQUIRE harvest reporting for every single hunter, including Tribal hunters. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: mfswallace on February 01, 2018, 04:12:04 PM
How about we look at it from this angle?

Nobody wants to give up their rights.  I know if I had the right to hunt longer and for more animals I would not want to give that option up.  I also know that I don't want to give up my right to free speech or my right to bear arms.

Do I think that there should be some limits on the right to bear arms? Yes, in today's day and age definitely yes.  It just makes sense.


So if the tribes want to put some sort of limit on what they take based on today's day and age I think that is something that could be addressed without giving up their tribal rights.

One more thing that I think is really important is I think there is over harvest by some natives but I would bet a ton of money that there is more over harvest done by non natives.  I also believe that we have rules about that over harvest and we are not enforcing them.  Just look at the guy from operation cody that many here say was buying elk from natives and selling that.  He got home arrest for a few months for being involved in the taking of hundreds if not thousands of game animals.  We really need to lobby to have the rules we have enforced better.

How about we get our house in order before we get so amped up over what others are doing?

Basically the same angle...

And thinking there is an overharvest by natives or non-natives is irrelevant, opinions don't matter.  Like Plat said, over, and over, and over, there needs to be scientific proof.

Which is why we need to REQUIRE harvest reporting for every single hunter, including Tribal hunters.

 :yeah:  best scientific/common sense solution
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on February 01, 2018, 04:37:01 PM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

This is an interesting point...the other day I spoke with an enrolled member down here on the yakama res who told me he asked someone on the council whether he could sell the meat from elk he shoots and was told if he is selling it to feed his family it is just another way he is providing a living....which I guess in principle I do agree with but the problem I have with it is the extremely finite nature of the resource he is utilizing. Wild game can be so easily overharvested, and cannot be propagated to match harvest in the same ways domesticated livestock can...

I asked the fellow how hard it would be for him to harvest say, 10 elk in a year,  and he kind of just chuckled and said 10? That's easy.

In all fairness I do believe this man is providing meat for several families not just his own, however, he had a medium sized cow elk in his truck bed and told me he shot a 6x7 bull as well as another bull at the same time way up oak creek somewhere the week before. And had already bagged multiple cows before these... But he only had until the 1st to take cows so he was going back up..........

I say all of this not to incite jealousy or hatred, but simply to state the obvious: if there are even only one or two dozen members of every tribe "playing by the rules" which this man is, doing this and harvesting upwards of a dozen elk every year or more, how can we hope to see and enjoy a thriving population of these animals for generations to come?
I can bet that no councilmen ever said that about selling game, it's  against our law to do so
Ok, so lets talk about selling the game being against your law.  let me ask you an honest question then,  Do you guys enforce that law?  I'll answer that for you, hell no!  I'm sure you've heard of the Jerky guy, AW. How much does he make a year on selling jerky?  I just saw a facebook photo with him standing in front of a full smoker full of elk meat.  And him saying he was all sold out and needs to resupply.  What does a guy do with 25 to over 100 bull elk a year, he sells it.  How about the tribal members that killed elk and deer weekly and drove to Tacoma to sell it to a big time criminal?  Please don't tell me the tribe or the elders didn't know about that one!!!!!!!  Be honest here, these are perfectly honest questions, no bashing or racist remarks were said.
We can sell jerky legally, but only member to member of any enrolled tribe, I didn't know about these people shooting game and driving to the west side to sell it to said criminals, until I read the book, how would the elders know about these people selling game? I know they'd be very against it, what can the elders do about it? Now riddle me this, why di you guys always bring up the elders in these post? They're not law enforcement, what can the elders do about these select few? If you aren't so racist let's go hunting sometime, invite me over to eat dimner, or just hang out? Not that I would anyways but why don't you instead of instilling your hate on here?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: h20hunter on February 01, 2018, 05:04:30 PM
Pot meet kettle.

"Not that I would"

I've shared the table with all colors, creeds,  gay and straight....saying you would not attend even if asked is more racist than what I've seen so far im this thread.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 05:19:38 PM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

This is an interesting point...the other day I spoke with an enrolled member down here on the yakama res who told me he asked someone on the council whether he could sell the meat from elk he shoots and was told if he is selling it to feed his family it is just another way he is providing a living....which I guess in principle I do agree with but the problem I have with it is the extremely finite nature of the resource he is utilizing. Wild game can be so easily overharvested, and cannot be propagated to match harvest in the same ways domesticated livestock can...

I asked the fellow how hard it would be for him to harvest say, 10 elk in a year,  and he kind of just chuckled and said 10? That's easy.

In all fairness I do believe this man is providing meat for several families not just his own, however, he had a medium sized cow elk in his truck bed and told me he shot a 6x7 bull as well as another bull at the same time way up oak creek somewhere the week before. And had already bagged multiple cows before these... But he only had until the 1st to take cows so he was going back up..........

I say all of this not to incite jealousy or hatred, but simply to state the obvious: if there are even only one or two dozen members of every tribe "playing by the rules" which this man is, doing this and harvesting upwards of a dozen elk every year or more, how can we hope to see and enjoy a thriving population of these animals for generations to come?
I can bet that no councilmen ever said that about selling game, it's  against our law to do so
Ok, so lets talk about selling the game being against your law.  let me ask you an honest question then,  Do you guys enforce that law?  I'll answer that for you, hell no!  I'm sure you've heard of the Jerky guy, AW. How much does he make a year on selling jerky?  I just saw a facebook photo with him standing in front of a full smoker full of elk meat.  And him saying he was all sold out and needs to resupply.  What does a guy do with 25 to over 100 bull elk a year, he sells it.  How about the tribal members that killed elk and deer weekly and drove to Tacoma to sell it to a big time criminal?  Please don't tell me the tribe or the elders didn't know about that one!!!!!!!  Be honest here, these are perfectly honest questions, no bashing or racist remarks were said.
We can sell jerky legally, but only member to member of any enrolled tribe, I didn't know about these people shooting game and driving to the west side to sell it to said criminals, until I read the book, how would the elders know about these people selling game? I know they'd be very against it, what can the elders do about it? Now riddle me this, why di you guys always bring up the elders in these post? They're not law enforcement, what can the elders do about these select few? If you aren't so racist let's go hunting sometime, invite me over to eat dimner, or just hang out? Not that I would anyways but why don't you instead of instilling your hate on here?
so, you and your elders never heard about the biggest poaching ring in our stateís history, that was heavily supplied by a yakama tribal member?  I have a copy of the book or I will buy you a copy if you send me an address to send it to.  Send me a pm.  Iíve always thought the elders had a big influence on the tribe?  I figured they were held up with the highest respect amongst members? Thatís why I bring them up.  And this isnít about racism, itís on my bucket list to meet up with Joe over a beer and talk.  You can come if you want, thatís if your ok to be seen with a white dude.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jmscon on February 01, 2018, 05:22:09 PM
I wouldn’t go over to some members houses for dinner if I was invited either, just sayin’
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 05:24:02 PM
I also wonder if the state could get real accurate harvest numbers from the yakamas if that would help aleive tention from false numbers being rumored?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on February 01, 2018, 05:51:23 PM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

This is an interesting point...the other day I spoke with an enrolled member down here on the yakama res who told me he asked someone on the council whether he could sell the meat from elk he shoots and was told if he is selling it to feed his family it is just another way he is providing a living....which I guess in principle I do agree with but the problem I have with it is the extremely finite nature of the resource he is utilizing. Wild game can be so easily overharvested, and cannot be propagated to match harvest in the same ways domesticated livestock can...

I asked the fellow how hard it would be for him to harvest say, 10 elk in a year,  and he kind of just chuckled and said 10? That's easy.

In all fairness I do believe this man is providing meat for several families not just his own, however, he had a medium sized cow elk in his truck bed and told me he shot a 6x7 bull as well as another bull at the same time way up oak creek somewhere the week before. And had already bagged multiple cows before these... But he only had until the 1st to take cows so he was going back up..........

I say all of this not to incite jealousy or hatred, but simply to state the obvious: if there are even only one or two dozen members of every tribe "playing by the rules" which this man is, doing this and harvesting upwards of a dozen elk every year or more, how can we hope to see and enjoy a thriving population of these animals for generations to come?
I can bet that no councilmen ever said that about selling game, it's  against our law to do so
Ok, so lets talk about selling the game being against your law.  let me ask you an honest question then,  Do you guys enforce that law?  I'll answer that for you, hell no!  I'm sure you've heard of the Jerky guy, AW. How much does he make a year on selling jerky?  I just saw a facebook photo with him standing in front of a full smoker full of elk meat.  And him saying he was all sold out and needs to resupply.  What does a guy do with 25 to over 100 bull elk a year, he sells it.  How about the tribal members that killed elk and deer weekly and drove to Tacoma to sell it to a big time criminal?  Please don't tell me the tribe or the elders didn't know about that one!!!!!!!  Be honest here, these are perfectly honest questions, no bashing or racist remarks were said.
We can sell jerky legally, but only member to member of any enrolled tribe, I didn't know about these people shooting game and driving to the west side to sell it to said criminals, until I read the book, how would the elders know about these people selling game? I know they'd be very against it, what can the elders do about it? Now riddle me this, why di you guys always bring up the elders in these post? They're not law enforcement, what can the elders do about these select few? If you aren't so racist let's go hunting sometime, invite me over to eat dimner, or just hang out? Not that I would anyways but why don't you instead of instilling your hate on here?
so, you and your elders never heard about the biggest poaching ring in our stateís history, that was heavily supplied by a yakama tribal member?  I have a copy of the book or I will buy you a copy if you send me an address to send it to.  Send me a pm.  Iíve always thought the elders had a big influence on the tribe?  I figured they were held up with the highest respect amongst members? Thatís why I bring them up.  And this isnít about racism, itís on my bucket list to meet up with Joe over a beer and talk.  You can come if you want, thatís if your ok to be seen with a white dude.
Read my comment again, the elders are held high, but they can not over see everyone, not everyone is our religion either, they have their choice of religion to follow, that is where the elders would come into play, lol I have white friends, also I have been seen with them. Read it a little slower an comprehend what I have said about the book. You just got all bent outta shape about my comment to sit an chat
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 06:03:47 PM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

This is an interesting point...the other day I spoke with an enrolled member down here on the yakama res who told me he asked someone on the council whether he could sell the meat from elk he shoots and was told if he is selling it to feed his family it is just another way he is providing a living....which I guess in principle I do agree with but the problem I have with it is the extremely finite nature of the resource he is utilizing. Wild game can be so easily overharvested, and cannot be propagated to match harvest in the same ways domesticated livestock can...

I asked the fellow how hard it would be for him to harvest say, 10 elk in a year,  and he kind of just chuckled and said 10? That's easy.

In all fairness I do believe this man is providing meat for several families not just his own, however, he had a medium sized cow elk in his truck bed and told me he shot a 6x7 bull as well as another bull at the same time way up oak creek somewhere the week before. And had already bagged multiple cows before these... But he only had until the 1st to take cows so he was going back up..........

I say all of this not to incite jealousy or hatred, but simply to state the obvious: if there are even only one or two dozen members of every tribe "playing by the rules" which this man is, doing this and harvesting upwards of a dozen elk every year or more, how can we hope to see and enjoy a thriving population of these animals for generations to come?
I can bet that no councilmen ever said that about selling game, it's  against our law to do so
Ok, so lets talk about selling the game being against your law.  let me ask you an honest question then,  Do you guys enforce that law?  I'll answer that for you, hell no!  I'm sure you've heard of the Jerky guy, AW. How much does he make a year on selling jerky?  I just saw a facebook photo with him standing in front of a full smoker full of elk meat.  And him saying he was all sold out and needs to resupply.  What does a guy do with 25 to over 100 bull elk a year, he sells it.  How about the tribal members that killed elk and deer weekly and drove to Tacoma to sell it to a big time criminal?  Please don't tell me the tribe or the elders didn't know about that one!!!!!!!  Be honest here, these are perfectly honest questions, no bashing or racist remarks were said.
We can sell jerky legally, but only member to member of any enrolled tribe, I didn't know about these people shooting game and driving to the west side to sell it to said criminals, until I read the book, how would the elders know about these people selling game? I know they'd be very against it, what can the elders do about it? Now riddle me this, why di you guys always bring up the elders in these post? They're not law enforcement, what can the elders do about these select few? If you aren't so racist let's go hunting sometime, invite me over to eat dimner, or just hang out? Not that I would anyways but why don't you instead of instilling your hate on here?
so, you and your elders never heard about the biggest poaching ring in our stateís history, that was heavily supplied by a yakama tribal member?  I have a copy of the book or I will buy you a copy if you send me an address to send it to.  Send me a pm.  Iíve always thought the elders had a big influence on the tribe?  I figured they were held up with the highest respect amongst members? Thatís why I bring them up.  And this isnít about racism, itís on my bucket list to meet up with Joe over a beer and talk.  You can come if you want, thatís if your ok to be seen with a white dude.
Read my comment again, the elders are held high, but they can not over see everyone, not everyone is our religion either, they have their choice of religion to follow, that is where the elders would come into play, lol I have white friends, also I have been seen with them. Read it a little slower an comprehend what I have said about the book. You just got all bent outta shape about my comment to sit an chat
Not sure why you think Iím bent out of shape, Iím fine. Iím trying to have a two way conversation. You said until you read the book, read and read are pronounced differently but spelled the same, I thought you said you were going to read it.  Do I need to throw in emojiís to convey that Iím not angry?!  😜🤣😁😆
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Rainier10 on February 01, 2018, 06:15:52 PM
I also wonder if the state could get real accurate harvest numbers from the yakamas if that would help aleive tention from false numbers being rumored?
Based on many posts I have seen on Huntwa I know the state doesnít have accurate harvest numbers for what non natives do or harvest.

Just sayiní not picking a fight just saying it goes both ways. Get our yard in check before complaining about the neighbors.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 06:35:15 PM
I also wonder if the state could get real accurate harvest numbers from the yakamas if that would help aleive tention from false numbers being rumored?
Based on many posts I have seen on Huntwa I know the state doesnít have accurate harvest numbers for what non natives do or harvest.

Just sayiní not picking a fight just saying it goes both ways. Get our yard in check before complaining about the neighbors.
Damn, Iím not picking a fight, I thought it was a good place to start.  I will go out on a limb and say the non native harvest reports are much better than the zero reports we get from the yakama tribe?  True or not, should I throw in another happy emoji to show Iím not mad??  🙂
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on February 01, 2018, 06:41:53 PM
 :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)   :)
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 01, 2018, 07:41:49 PM
Plat, maybe I'm misunderstanding one of the posts you have made and if so please feel free to correct me. It seems that many people are aware of a certain person from your tribe who is selling elk jerky,which seems to be against tribal law. And In reading one of your posts you stated something to the effect of the tribe was probably not going to do anything about it. And you seemed to justify this lack of enforcement being just fine because of wdfw saying this herd is above carrying capacity and there seems to be no scientific proof that this individual is having a negative effect on the herd. Since when is it ok to break the law as long as no one can prove you caused any damage while doing it? Would be the same as saying we shouldn't charge all the non native elk poachers because the herd size hasn't been impacted!

Just to clarify, I never said selling jerky was illegal. I was bunching abuse and illegal activity together, much like what occurs here, bunch everything together and point and blame everyone.

His business is a legitimate business, the abuse is what would apply in this case.

I didn't know about the biggest poacher in state history until I read it here so why would you expect our elders to know?

Did members on here know about him, or the ring from s.w. washington, or the kid from Aberdeen?

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Rainier10 on February 01, 2018, 07:44:41 PM
I also wonder if the state could get real accurate harvest numbers from the yakamas if that would help aleive tention from false numbers being rumored?
Based on many posts I have seen on Huntwa I know the state doesnít have accurate harvest numbers for what non natives do or harvest.

Just sayiní not picking a fight just saying it goes both ways. Get our yard in check before complaining about the neighbors.
Damn, Iím not picking a fight, I thought it was a good place to start.  I will go out on a limb and say the non native harvest reports are much better than the zero reports we get from the yakama tribe?  True or not, should I throw in another happy emoji to show Iím not mad??  🙂
Glad youíre not mad bro.😁

I agree it would be a great place to start and we have to start somewhere.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 01, 2018, 07:54:44 PM
I also wonder if the state could get real accurate harvest numbers from the yakamas if that would help aleive tention from false numbers being rumored?
Based on many posts I have seen on Huntwa I know the state doesnít have accurate harvest numbers for what non natives do or harvest.

Just sayiní not picking a fight just saying it goes both ways. Get our yard in check before complaining about the neighbors.
Damn, Iím not picking a fight, I thought it was a good place to start.  I will go out on a limb and say the non native harvest reports are much better than the zero reports we get from the yakama tribe?  True or not, should I throw in another happy emoji to show Iím not mad??  🙂
Glad youíre not mad bro.😁

I agree it would be a great place to start and we have to start somewhere.
👍🏻
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 02, 2018, 08:11:21 AM
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

This is an interesting point...the other day I spoke with an enrolled member down here on the yakama res who told me he asked someone on the council whether he could sell the meat from elk he shoots and was told if he is selling it to feed his family it is just another way he is providing a living....which I guess in principle I do agree with but the problem I have with it is the extremely finite nature of the resource he is utilizing. Wild game can be so easily overharvested, and cannot be propagated to match harvest in the same ways domesticated livestock can...

I asked the fellow how hard it would be for him to harvest say, 10 elk in a year,  and he kind of just chuckled and said 10? That's easy.

In all fairness I do believe this man is providing meat for several families not just his own, however, he had a medium sized cow elk in his truck bed and told me he shot a 6x7 bull as well as another bull at the same time way up oak creek somewhere the week before. And had already bagged multiple cows before these... But he only had until the 1st to take cows so he was going back up..........

I say all of this not to incite jealousy or hatred, but simply to state the obvious: if there are even only one or two dozen members of every tribe "playing by the rules" which this man is, doing this and harvesting upwards of a dozen elk every year or more, how can we hope to see and enjoy a thriving population of these animals for generations to come?
I can bet that no councilmen ever said that about selling game, it's  against our law to do so
Ok, so lets talk about selling the game being against your law.  let me ask you an honest question then,  Do you guys enforce that law?  I'll answer that for you, hell no!  I'm sure you've heard of the Jerky guy, AW. How much does he make a year on selling jerky?  I just saw a facebook photo with him standing in front of a full smoker full of elk meat.  And him saying he was all sold out and needs to resupply.  What does a guy do with 25 to over 100 bull elk a year, he sells it.  How about the tribal members that killed elk and deer weekly and drove to Tacoma to sell it to a big time criminal?  Please don't tell me the tribe or the elders didn't know about that one!!!!!!!  Be honest here, these are perfectly honest questions, no bashing or racist remarks were said.
It would be nice if claims were made about someone (Aaron), he would be allowed to defend himself.
Its right on his Facebook. I donít think a guy who kills multiple- dozens of bulls each year to make money will get much support on here, but he will have some support thatís for sure.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: h20hunter on February 02, 2018, 01:20:49 PM
It's a free site, he is welcome to join.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: chinookie23 on February 02, 2018, 01:37:31 PM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2015/reports/deer_combo_dist_all.php

This is almost as much as the whole Washington native American population...... I highly doubt the tribes even come close to this amount of harvest.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: chinookie23 on February 02, 2018, 02:16:42 PM
https://nwifc.org/downloads/big-game-harvest-report-2015-2016/

hope this works but here we go.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jackelope on February 02, 2018, 03:33:02 PM
It's a free site, he is welcome to join.
Check his status......

If Aaron wants to be able to represent himself and remain a member in good standing, he should learn to control himself and not throw insults and name calling around. It's his own fault that he's not here. He knows the rules, and it's not the first time he's been banned for the exact same reason.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 02, 2018, 04:32:22 PM
So that allows rumors (unrepresented info) to become acceptable?
ask him, and if he hasnít killed at least a dozen bulls, Iíll apologize.  But itís not rumor. The fact is, he doesnít want the real number of kills to be known. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jackelope on February 02, 2018, 06:50:24 PM
So that allows rumors (unrepresented info) to become acceptable?

It doesnít disallow people to talk. All kinds of gossip goes on on forums.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: mfswallace on February 02, 2018, 10:05:50 PM
https://nwifc.org/downloads/big-game-harvest-report-2015-2016/

hope this works but here we go.

 :chuckle:  this was a joke correct  :dunno: if not I got a piece of ocean front property in north Dakota I'll sell ya
1 elk killed for region 3
800 total deer state wide

Oh and there are only 115 wolves in Washington  :yike:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 03, 2018, 07:44:47 AM
https://nwifc.org/downloads/big-game-harvest-report-2015-2016/

hope this works but here we go.

 :chuckle:  this was a joke correct  :dunno: if not I got a piece of ocean front property in north Dakota I'll sell ya
1 elk killed for region 3
800 total deer state wide

Oh and there are only 115 wolves in Washington  :yike:
Complete joke, Wdfw probably believes this load of crap.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: jennabug on February 03, 2018, 07:48:52 AM
So that allows rumors (unrepresented info) to become acceptable?

It doesnít disallow people to talk. All kinds of gossip goes on on forums.

Forum rules state...
Quote
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, name calling, belittling, threatening, unproven accusations, trashes topics or other members, trashes the forum, intentionally instigates trouble, obscene, profanity or intended profanity, sexually oriented, adult material, invasive of a person's privacy, or in violation of any International, State, or United States Federal law. You
How fine is the line between gossip and spreading false information? Defamatory? Inaccurate?
I don't know these people, but I do know how I feel about unsubstantiated rumors and grudges.
Title: More blood and guts
Post by: jackelope on February 03, 2018, 08:16:00 AM
So that allows rumors (unrepresented info) to become acceptable?

It doesnít disallow people to talk. All kinds of gossip goes on on forums.

Forum rules state...
Quote
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, name calling, belittling, threatening, unproven accusations, trashes topics or other members, trashes the forum, intentionally instigates trouble, obscene, profanity or intended profanity, sexually oriented, adult material, invasive of a person's privacy, or in violation of any International, State, or United States Federal law. You
How fine is the line between gossip and spreading false information? Defamatory? Inaccurate?
I don't know these people, but I do know how I feel about unsubstantiated rumors and grudges.

Itís posted on his own Facebook page apparently.
Iím not sure what youíre saying.  There is no doubt the guy sells jerky. Heís wide open about it. And thatís all that was brought up.

If Aaron wants to come back and civilly discuss this without cursing and swearing and calling people names, Iím wide open to discussing with the other mods and admins about lifting his ban. Traditionally heís not been able to do that.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: mfswallace on February 04, 2018, 10:05:09 PM
I don't Facebook, anyone able to screenshot his page?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 05, 2018, 05:27:19 AM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 05, 2018, 06:08:14 AM
The pic is of him standing in front of all the smoked jerky, he talks about having it all sold and needs to get more.  And for the record, I never mentioned full names only initials.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: chinookie23 on February 05, 2018, 12:27:47 PM
is it just me or did this whole blood and guts thread turned into a virtual campfire thread
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 05, 2018, 12:56:38 PM
Without pics itís just another discussion, nothing ever changes.  The treaty rights topic will always be disagreed on, I see no fix, ever.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dvolmer on February 05, 2018, 10:22:53 PM
Moderator, Please close down this thread so I wont be tempted to open it in the future.  The ignorance on this issue is beyond any kind of belief!  If the public only really knew.  Sad, Sad, Sad.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 05, 2018, 10:32:34 PM
Why close it down? I see no reason to? There's been civil discussion on both sides and new things/concepts/ideas learned from both sides.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be closed down? Sure, there's been disagreements, but overall it's been a good discussion.

If you can't handle a civil debate/discussion then ignore it. I mean, I know you don't want me to come out here dressed up in my feathers and buckskin atempting to garner some sympathy right?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Tbar on February 05, 2018, 10:56:33 PM
Moderator, Please close down this thread so I wont be tempted to open it in the future.  The ignorance on this issue is beyond any kind of belief!  If the public only really knew.  Sad, Sad, Sad.
If they knew what?  :tinfoil: Do tell!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 06, 2018, 05:45:00 AM
Why close it down? I see no reason to? There's been civil discussion on both sides and new things/concepts/ideas learned from both sides.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be closed down? Sure, there's been disagreements, but overall it's been a good discussion.

If you can't handle a civil debate/discussion then ignore it. I mean, I know you don't want me to come out here dressed up in my feathers and buckskin attempting to garner some sympathy right?
That leads to a terrible picture. Please pretend it's winter and your in your Teepee covered up.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 06, 2018, 06:10:08 AM
Why close it down? I see no reason to? There's been civil discussion on both sides and new things/concepts/ideas learned from both sides.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be closed down? Sure, there's been disagreements, but overall it's been a good discussion.

If you can't handle a civil debate/discussion then ignore it. I mean, I know you don't want me to come out here dressed up in my feathers and buckskin attempting to garner some sympathy right?
That leads to a terrible picture. Please pretend it's winter and your in your Teepee covered up.  :chuckle:
I didn't want to say it but since you did, I agree!! :chuckle:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 06, 2018, 06:24:36 AM
On a serious note, in the past few years I've learned a lot from these kinds of threads.  Plat's input and private conversations have been eye opening, more natives and non natives should listen to what he has to say.  Both can learn from him.  But, I will always feel we should be on the same level and have the same rules when it comes to fish and wildlife, too much has changed in the past 200 years to keep this up.  I understand the need for tradition, but we all have tradition and only some of us had to conform.  Not sure what the answer is like I've said before, but when either side abuses their rights or gets caught in a major poaching ring, tempers flare.  That's just going to continue to happen.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dscubame on February 07, 2018, 12:09:42 PM
I would wager a large sum that way more poaching kills occur with non natives than those kills legally by natives under their treaty.  Because it is not necessary for the natives to hide themselves due to their treaty rights and non native poaching goes hidden or attempted so because it is illegal.  Spend enough time on the peninsula around Aberdeen/Shelton or in the NE up by Colville/Republic and you will be certain that my wager will pay.

Although I am sick of the constant squawking about the natives treaty it is a small price to pay for what happened and how it happened to their ancestors.  Predators and non native poachers have a serious impact on the game population, the regular native killed elk at a feed lot out in the open or native guy that kills a dozen a year, not so much.

And who the heck is Aaron, are we using his forum name or his personal name like the inner hunt WA circle likes to do?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on February 07, 2018, 05:42:40 PM
I would wager a large sum that way more poaching kills occur with non natives than those kills legally by natives under their treaty.  Because it is not necessary for the natives to hide themselves due to their treaty rights and non native poaching goes hidden or attempted so because it is illegal. 


 :yeah: :yeah:

This has been my point as well. 

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Dan-o on February 07, 2018, 06:14:29 PM
I would wager a large sum that way more poaching kills occur with non natives than those kills legally by natives under their treaty.  Because it is not necessary for the natives to hide themselves due to their treaty rights and non native poaching goes hidden or attempted so because it is illegal. 


 :yeah: :yeah:

This has been my point as well.

 :yeah:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Duckslayer89 on February 07, 2018, 08:32:19 PM
I would wager a large sum that way more poaching kills occur with non natives than those kills legally by natives under their treaty.  Because it is not necessary for the natives to hide themselves due to their treaty rights and non native poaching goes hidden or attempted so because it is illegal.  Spend enough time on the peninsula around Aberdeen/Shelton or in the NE up by Colville/Republic and you will be certain that my wager will pay.

Although I am sick of the constant squawking about the natives treaty it is a small price to pay for what happened and how it happened to their ancestors.  Predators and non native poachers have a serious impact on the game population, the regular native killed elk at a feed lot out in the open or native guy that kills a dozen a year, not so much.

And who the heck is Aaron, are we using his forum name or his personal name like the inner hunt WA circle likes to do?

Iím sick of people crying about what happened to their ancestors. It was wrong I get it. But itís happened to every race of people in all areas of the world at some point. I donít see everyone else getting special privileges out of it
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Jpmiller on February 07, 2018, 09:14:50 PM
I would wager a large sum that way more poaching kills occur with non natives than those kills legally by natives under their treaty.  Because it is not necessary for the natives to hide themselves due to their treaty rights and non native poaching goes hidden or attempted so because it is illegal.  Spend enough time on the peninsula around Aberdeen/Shelton or in the NE up by Colville/Republic and you will be certain that my wager will pay.

Although I am sick of the constant squawking about the natives treaty it is a small price to pay for what happened and how it happened to their ancestors.  Predators and non native poachers have a serious impact on the game population, the regular native killed elk at a feed lot out in the open or native guy that kills a dozen a year, not so much.

And who the heck is Aaron, are we using his forum name or his personal name like the inner hunt WA circle likes to do?

Iím sick of people crying about what happened to their ancestors. It was wrong I get it. But itís happened to every race of people in all areas of the world at some point. I donít see everyone else getting special privileges out of it

They negotiated their special priveledge with our government. Why should they not get what they negotiated for?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 07, 2018, 09:23:16 PM
Whos crying? I'm not. I'm discussing my rights and why I have them. Yes, atrocities happen to every race, but why should I give up mine if we negotiated for them?

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on February 08, 2018, 11:45:45 AM
DUCKSLAYER 89.  Right or wrong. Treaties are legal documents.  How do you feel about the 2 nd amendment    There are people who think that our ancestors wrote that law but it shouldn't apply now because it's a different era.  Just because you don't like a law or treaty doesn't mean it should be discarded 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Rainier10 on February 08, 2018, 11:58:23 AM
DUCKSLAYER 89.  Right or wrong. Treaties are legal documents.  How do you feel about the 2 nd amendment    There are people who think that our ancestors wrote that law but it shouldn't apply now because it's a different era.  Just because you don't like a law or treaty doesn't mean it should be discarded
You are spot on with this point of view.  Basically the same thing and none of us are willing to give up our 2A rights.

Now have they been restricted as times have changed?  Yes.  Is it worth looking at restricting the native harvest or at least tracking it better?  Maybe.  Every time legislation comes out to restrict 2A rights (bump stops or something like that) do we fight it?  Yes.  Is there generally a compromise?  Yes.

Hopefully a compromise can be reached on the native harvest.

And for the millionth time I still think that non native harvest and predators have a more significant effect on game populations than native harvest.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 08, 2018, 12:00:25 PM
So that allows rumors (unrepresented info) to become acceptable?

It doesnít disallow people to talk. All kinds of gossip goes on on forums.

Forum rules state...
Quote
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, name calling, belittling, threatening, unproven accusations, trashes topics or other members, trashes the forum, intentionally instigates trouble, obscene, profanity or intended profanity, sexually oriented, adult material, invasive of a person's privacy, or in violation of any International, State, or United States Federal law. You
How fine is the line between gossip and spreading false information? Defamatory? Inaccurate?
I don't know these people, but I do know how I feel about unsubstantiated rumors and grudges.

Itís posted on his own Facebook page apparently.
Iím not sure what youíre saying.  There is no doubt the guy sells jerky. Heís wide open about it. And thatís all that was brought up.

If Aaron wants to come back and civilly discuss this without cursing and swearing and calling people names, Iím wide open to discussing with the other mods and admins about lifting his ban. Traditionally heís not been able to do that.

Food for thought, maybe we can save the discussion regarding this certain member for when he is able to return and provide a rebuttal?

I'm not defending him, but I for one do not like someone trashing my name when they don't know a thing about me.

Those that talk about others really have know clue about them unless they speak to them face to face or in this case on the forum.

I know I've been spoken about and name trashed, but does it benefit me or anybody around me to stoop to that persons level in an attempt to bolster their self-esteem?

No, not really. I may not always agree, but I'm not going to stand on the sidelines while as a whole, a people, a tribe we are bashed carelessly, thoughtlessly and recklessly by others.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 08, 2018, 12:14:30 PM
DUCKSLAYER 89.  Right or wrong. Treaties are legal documents.  How do you feel about the 2 nd amendment    There are people who think that our ancestors wrote that law but it shouldn't apply now because it's a different era.  Just because you don't like a law or treaty doesn't mean it should be discarded

I agree, and will add that even with it being a right you still have to police yourself to some degree.  Doesn't mean you have to give anything up (per se).  Like for the 2nd, how many of the anti-gun haters are brought about by people doing really stupid stuff like shooting up in the air in populated areas on New Years or using tracers in a drought in August or shooting down roads for your shooting lanes or walking around the capitol building with guns, trench coats and gas masks or shooting up TVs, computers, appliances and leaving them there?  Kind of the same deal imo.  A handful of people are bringing about the heat for the larger group. 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on February 08, 2018, 08:40:49 PM
I would wager a large sum that way more poaching kills occur with non natives than those kills legally by natives under their treaty.  Because it is not necessary for the natives to hide themselves due to their treaty rights and non native poaching goes hidden or attempted so because it is illegal.  Spend enough time on the peninsula around Aberdeen/Shelton or in the NE up by Colville/Republic and you will be certain that my wager will pay.

Although I am sick of the constant squawking about the natives treaty it is a small price to pay for what happened and how it happened to their ancestors.  Predators and non native poachers have a serious impact on the game population, the regular native killed elk at a feed lot out in the open or native guy that kills a dozen a year, not so much.

And who the heck is Aaron, are we using his forum name or his personal name like the inner hunt WA circle likes to do?

Iím sick of people crying about what happened to their ancestors. It was wrong I get it. But itís happened to every race of people in all areas of the world at some point. I donít see everyone else getting special privileges out of it
Im not cryin about what happened, but I wont forget it or let people like you use that against us, the only ones who cry about it seem to be you an your buddys on here, "get over it" is what you all seem to run too an bring up, our rights are reserved by our Treaty, Treaties are supreme law of the LAND......
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 09, 2018, 05:13:37 AM
I don't believe you want to go down that road here.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 09, 2018, 06:33:33 AM
I don't agree with the 2nd amendment being compared to the treaties, that amendment covers all of us who are citizens of this country.  I'd consider Plat, time and the other natives, citizens of this country, especially the one's who joined the military.  We are under constant attack on our 2nd, especially when someone goes on a shooting spree.  Now matter how many elk are killed by one person in a feeding ground or where ever, it only ends up on hunting forums, no attacks on the treaties have ever been made in the news.  For the record, I only put up initials of a certain person, another member that supported him brought up the full name.  The inner circle that know of this guy know that he kills a lot of bulls and he IS known for being the "jerky guy", that is all factual.  The average elk hunter kills a bull once every ten years, the average.  When someone kills two dozen or more a year, that is what we call excessive.  And that is taking advantage of the treaty and shows lack of respect for the herd, Truth.  I agree number wise that probably more non natives poach more animals per year than natives, but you have to consider the much higher number of non natives to natives.  Now if 1% of the population takes X amount of animals, and you compare that with the number of animals each non native takes,  I bet the kill percentage number starts to even out.  This topic is getting tired and boring..........  But I have to chime in when I see people defending this BS.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 06:52:08 AM
As a whole, im defending the whole, not individualism. Now, with that said. Our treaty is always under attack, its just rarely publicized. Recent examples, the states numerous attempts to tax us on petroleum products. Its gone thru 3 different levels of the judicial system amd is now pending the highest level of the land, the supreme court.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 09, 2018, 07:10:00 AM
As a whole, im defending the whole, not individualism. Now, with that said. Our treaty is always under attack, its just rarely publicized. Recent examples, the states numerous attempts to tax us on petroleum products. Its gone thru 3 different levels of the judicial system amd is now pending the highest level of the land, the supreme court.
Ahh, yeah I never hear of attacks, I can't imagine your treaties ever going away though.  And I absolutely understand you defending your tribe, that is completely understandable.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Odell on February 09, 2018, 07:30:27 AM
As a whole, im defending the whole, not individualism. Now, with that said. Our treaty is always under attack, its just rarely publicized. Recent examples, the states numerous attempts to tax us on petroleum products. Its gone thru 3 different levels of the judicial system amd is now pending the highest level of the land, the supreme court.

Good. Everyone should pay some taxes. The fact that the casinos don't pay but benefit from roads and services is maddening
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 07:38:44 AM
Our casinos donate a bunch of money annually. The local municipal pd has a ton of new equipment, personnel and funds to provide services all provided by the big bad tribal dollars.

Again, why should we pay? Is it my fault my ancestors were better negotiators and got the better end of the deal?

Why not ask the millioms of illegal immigrants to pay their share? Theyre costing the state and feds billions a year. Not just aid dollars, but the countless lives that are ruined due to identity theft, tax evasion, homicide etc. Etc. Etc.

Wasnt there a recent death of an l.e.o. by an illegal immigrant that was deported twice? Why arent you up in arms about that?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on February 09, 2018, 07:49:48 AM
We are up in arms about all the illegal immigrants, thatís why we have Trump! 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 07:51:09 AM
Are you? Because i dont hear you being vocal about it. All i hear you cry about is tribal issues.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 07:56:30 AM
So getting up in arms over tribal corporations getting "tax breaks" which probably gets into a million maybe but corporations getting multi-millions and counting and negatively affecting the local economy amd citizens is okay?

We might save a little with our tax breaks but its pennies when compared to big corporations. 

But its okay, keep boycotting amd hating i think we'll be fine without a dozen people not coming thru our doors or utilizing our funds donated annually.

Oh wait, second thought. Why dont some of you look and see if your local municipality or county government is getting funds from a local tribe to assist with services amd then complain.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 08:09:27 AM
To still think we dont pay taxes sbows that some are either not believing or caring to try and verify whats said or are just being ignorant. Oh well, damn the big bad tribes for taking away from corporations that would do worse.

Looking at just last year, our pact had us distribute nearly half a million in community grants and you would not believe who the person at the casino is the one doing it. :chuckle:

Last year as well, not pact required we donated nearly a million to area non-profits/charities.

But hey, damn those indians....... :bash:
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on February 09, 2018, 08:15:44 AM
The tribe over here where I live has bought up lots of property off their reservation and then they open businesses and refuse to pay property taxes. Even though they, and their customers, use all the things that those taxes pay for, such as roads, police, fire department, schools, etc.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 08:30:57 AM
So now that we're becoming economically sustainable amd buying back land that was once ours its a problem? Have you checked to see if the tribe has a paid contract to access those services or are you just saying theyre using them without paying because you havent looked?

I know a tribe near you does pay the county for services as well as a few other westside tribes. But what do i know, its not like ive ever been in those types of meetings.

I know, it sucks that the tribes are buying up land. Why cant they just stay on the reservations that the feds put them on. Theyre just being greedy, they dont need all that land, we just just take it from them amd exterminate them or move them to crappy unusable land!

Oh, does it not sound the same when we say it versus the federal government? Im sorry, my bad.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Tbar on February 09, 2018, 08:32:15 AM
The tribe over here where I live has bought up lots of property off their reservation and then they open businesses and refuse to pay property taxes. Even though they, and their customers, use all the things that those taxes pay for, such as roads, police, fire department, schools, etc.
I would lay money against your claim that they do not contribute.  Appendix X is voluntary taxation.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 08:38:18 AM
I know what whats going to be said before its said, "get over it, thats 200 years ago, times have changed". But have they? Less than a century ago we werent considered citizens, 2nd class and now we're still facing the same type of hate and discrimination that was supposedly ended decades ago.

The states and feds are still trying to do away with us and implement manifest destiny but in different forms and tactics.

ASSIMILATE! Why? Why should i assimilate? Why should i forget where i come from? Where my ancestors are from? Thats my identity amd my childrens identity.

Where the feds went wrong is by not exterminating us, instead they negotiated treaties and lost. So now we're the bad guys by following our treaties and taking full advantage of it.

We laid down our arms once before and look what that got us. There for sure isnt going to be a second time.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dreamingbig on February 09, 2018, 08:38:33 AM
The Yakima elk herds are over capacity per wdfw. Now, a lawmaker reads and hears that they're not going to be concerned.

So tell me, what's it going to take to change that?
Well according to the proposed reduction in anterless harvest to zero for Archery hunters the Yakima herd MUST no longer be over objective.  Or they have to save the rest for the jerky guy and wolves?

Can the Native Americans do us all a favor and shoot every wolf that makes its weigh into the central and southern cascades?  You canít get in trouble.  Please and thank you. 😁


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
Rights are rights, whether its a right to free speech, assembly, bear arms etc. Im not giving up my rights just as any sane non-tribal member would give up theirs.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Tbar on February 09, 2018, 08:54:38 AM
The Yakima elk herds are over capacity per wdfw. Now, a lawmaker reads and hears that they're not going to be concerned.

So tell me, what's it going to take to change that?
Well according to the proposed reduction in anterless harvest to zero for Archery hunters the Yakima herd MUST no longer be over objective.  Or they have to save the rest for the jerky guy and wolves?

Can the Native Americans do us all a favor and shoot every wolf that makes its weigh into the central and southern cascades?  You canít get in trouble.  Please and thank you. 😁


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Was that reduction in accordance with herd objectives? Or was it human management not wildlife management? Was it at the request of the district bio or the rpm? Or even a politician speaking on behalf of influential stakeholders?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dreamingbig on February 09, 2018, 08:56:16 AM
I didnít ask you too and completely agree that any identified group would abuse an unlimited harvest approach.

BUT can you please hunt and shoot some wolves?  Thank you. 🙏


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Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: bobcat on February 09, 2018, 09:04:04 AM
Rights are rights, whether its a right to free speech, assembly, bear arms etc. Im not giving up my rights just as any sane non-tribal member would give up theirs.

Nobodyís asking you to give up your rights. Could the tribe not put a limit on how many deer and elk each member kills without taking away your rights? Youíd still get to hunt as your right guaranteed by your treaty. Why does one person need to kill dozens or even hundreds of deer and elk each year? Why? Only reason would be itís his business, itís what he does for a living. And hey, I canít say I blame the guy. Or even the tribe. I blame MY government for allowing it to happen. Just like they allow tribes with casinos to not pay taxes, and tribal members to not pay gas tax, and not pay property taxes. If theyíre not going to pay like everyone else does, then our government should take away all the things those taxes support. Education, roads, emergency services, etc. Again, I donít have anything against you or any tribal member. The blame lies totally with our government.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 09:16:48 AM
Nobody ever asks. Did the fed govt ask? Nope. Are they trying to ask now? Nope. Is the state asking? Nope. Are the going to ask? Nope. You may not individually, but many others on Hw are demanding it. Assimilate, abolish, forget and move on.

You dont like being singled out just as much as i dont. It might not be you saying it but its affecting you. Just like when hw members lump all of us together and belittle and use derogatory worda/comments about us all.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 09, 2018, 09:20:36 AM
I would like to know what the Native Americans think about the wolf issue. Are they ok with the wiping out of the game animal populations by the wolves. If not why hasn't their been a public stand by them made?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: dscubame on February 09, 2018, 09:25:31 AM
Perhaps the natives support the wolves as the non natives do.  It was the non natives that reintroduced them and continue to do so.  "We" non natives support the wolf and it's true as evidence by our actions reintroducing them.  "Our" legislatures represent us and "we" are for the wolf by default.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on February 09, 2018, 09:33:25 AM
I don't believe you want to go down that road here.
Ill go down any road I please, including green dot or no green dot
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on February 09, 2018, 09:35:22 AM
Nobody ever asks. Did the fed govt ask? Nope. Are they trying to ask now? Nope. Is the state asking? Nope. Are the going to ask? Nope. You may not individually, but many others on Hw are demanding it. Assimilate, abolish, forget and move on.

You dont like being singled out just as much as i dont. It might not be you saying it but its affecting you. Just like when hw members lump all of us together and belittle and use derogatory worda/comments about us all.
GET OVER IT!!!!
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 09, 2018, 09:57:21 AM
I know what whats going to be said before its said, "get over it, thats 200 years ago, times have changed". But have they? Less than a century ago we werent considered citizens, 2nd class and now we're still facing the same type of hate and discrimination that was supposedly ended decades ago.

The states and feds are still trying to do away with us and implement manifest destiny but in different forms and tactics.

ASSIMILATE! Why? Why should i assimilate? Why should i forget where i come from? Where my ancestors are from? Thats my identity amd my childrens identity.

Where the feds went wrong is by not exterminating us, instead they negotiated treaties and lost. So now we're the bad guys by following our treaties and taking full advantage of it.

We laid down our arms once before and look what that got us. There for sure isnt going to be a second time.
I might be the odd ball on this, but I actually hope you do have the option of keeping an identity and continuing a culture.  A few on here want to do the same, but don't have that ability, and have to find something as close to it as they can.  I'd imagine there's a few that would like to still be running hounds, baiting bears, keeping salmon and steelhead.
If you don't think people are upset about illegals, there's a couple threads in off topics.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 10:20:51 AM
Jimmy, tbose are some prime examples of losing rights/privileges. Some didnt want to and the affects are felt by the ussr vroups and amimals alike(especially the prey).

Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 09, 2018, 10:29:52 AM
Plateau how does your people feel about the wolves?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 10:38:15 AM
Its a mix of answers. I for 1 am not happy that theyve been allowed to gdt to the numbers that they are now. The attitude taken towards them is troubling to say the least from the liberal side. They need to catch a bunch and move them west of the cascades for disbursement to start management.

The feds need to hurry and delist them statewide and stop interferring.
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: Time Immemorial 1855 on February 09, 2018, 12:39:40 PM
Plateau how does your people feel about the wolves?
Kill the wolf, save the hide.......
The only good wolf is a dead wolf......
Smoke a pack a day........
Those are my feelings
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 09, 2018, 01:51:40 PM
Plateau how does your people feel about the wolves?
Kill the wolf, save the hide.......
The only good wolf is a dead wolf......
Smoke a pack a day........
Those are my feelings
Amen!!  Can you guys kill them and get away with it?? 
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 09, 2018, 02:17:21 PM
What sound does a snake make?
Title: Re: More blood and guts
Post by: trophyhunt on February 09, 2018, 02:22:13 PM
What sound does a snake make?
lol, love it!