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Big Game Hunting => Other Big Game => Topic started by: MerriamMagician on January 25, 2018, 01:45:24 PM


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Title: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: MerriamMagician on January 25, 2018, 01:45:24 PM
Many of you are probably aware that WDFW opened a public comment timeframe yesterday to comment on 2018-2020 hunting season proposals and quotas.
One thing that quickly stood out to me was the reduction on youth antlerless moose tags. The current proposal reduces it from 18 tags down to just 1.
To me this is the destruction of a very unique and awesome opportunity for youth hunters. I drew one of those tags myself when I was younger (2004 or so) and have helped 3 other youth hunters who drew tags harvest their moose over the last few years. My own hunt and the other hunts I have been on were truly great hunts that will forever be ingrained in my memory and the other kids as well. I strongly oppose the proposal to reduce these tags. Youth hunts provide great initiative for newer hunters to become lifelong hunters, something very important in a world that continues to become more anti-hunting. I can understand if the units giving out the most youth tags (Mostly Mt. Spokane) have declining moose populations, but there are many other good units that could support youth tags. Heck I even think the overall number of youth moose tags should be increased. This is my own opinion on the matter, but I would suggest other hunters make their voices heard to oppose this proposal. I don't want to see a excellent youth opportunity that has been around for over 10 years disappear at the cost of todays and future youth hunters.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 25, 2018, 01:47:33 PM
Someone told me years ago to prove that wolves will reduce hunter opportunity, seems I was right.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: skeeter 20i on January 25, 2018, 01:52:28 PM
It's sad how they always seem to come back to restricting hunting opportunities for "Hunters 65 and Over, Disabled, or Youth"
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: benhuntin on January 25, 2018, 02:12:59 PM
All cow tags need to be taken away or we will not have a season in 3 years.


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Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Dan-o on January 25, 2018, 02:23:51 PM
All cow tags need to be taken away or we will not have a season in 3 years.


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Ben,

I'm assuming you know much more about NE WA moose populations than I do - seriously - so I'm not trying to argue.   I am trying to understand your comment. 

Haven't moose harvests remained fairly steady?
What makes you predict this catastrophic ending?
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 25, 2018, 02:26:49 PM
I agree with benhuntin


Wanna go snowmobiling in huckleberry, calispel, sherman and 49 north units?   You'll see why.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: JoeE on January 25, 2018, 02:51:24 PM
I’ve noticed a pretty big decline in moose in 101. I also talked to a border patrol agent who patrols that country and he said he has noticed a big drop off of moose numbers in that area too.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: steeleywhopper on January 25, 2018, 03:09:09 PM
I don’t know if it was a typo but one area gets a proposed 74 Antlerless permits! :yike:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 25, 2018, 04:07:32 PM
What chaps my hide even more than the moose is they took away all of the late-season youth Whitetail doe hunting. I can't see any reason why they would do that. We continue to chip chip away equality opportunities for our youth. Our younger generation is the future of our hunting heritage and the greed of grown men will be the end of this past time that we love so much. We're literally chopping our own heads off.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: hunter399 on January 25, 2018, 04:27:10 PM
What I commented to them,or why should youth suffer do to there mismanagement of predators.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: mkcj on January 25, 2018, 04:37:57 PM
All cow tags need to be taken away or we will not have a season in 3 years.


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 :yeah:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 25, 2018, 04:45:45 PM
I've got to agree with benhuntin as well.  I have a 10 year old that I would LOVE to see draw a youth moose tag, but when I go home to visit family and friends (I grew up in Kettle Falls), the moose population just isn't there anymore.  My BIL works for the highway dept in Steven's Co.  He keeps an eye out for them, and has seen a drastic reduction in numbers.  2 of my buddies that are loggers (and have max points for moose) say the same thing.  We are all a little scared to draw a tag right now to be honest.  There are still bulls out there, but not nearly what there were 5 or 6 years ago.
The truth is that if the moose aren't at carrying capacity, you have to rebuild the population by not killing the cows.  Youth tags are cow tags.   :dunno:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: jamesfromseattle on January 25, 2018, 05:04:49 PM
What chaps my hide even more than the moose is they took away all of the late-season youth Whitetail doe hunting. I can't see any reason why they would do that. We continue to chip chip away equality opportunities for our youth. Our younger generation is the future of our hunting heritage and the greed of grown men will be the end of this past time that we love so much. We're literally chopping our own heads off.

I fully agree with this.  I understand cutting moose tag, but I think they should add additional deer and elk opportunities to compensate for this.  A doe deer is a trophy to most kids, anyways.  Would love to see a small number of youth antlerless tags added in each of the other westside units as well.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on January 25, 2018, 06:02:54 PM
The most important thing is to rebuild moose numbers if they truly are down that much. But I really don't like that they plan to reduce the youth tags to just 1, from 18. Why not at least 3, or 5? It's almost not even worth my daughter applying for it now.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Bob33 on January 25, 2018, 06:10:30 PM
How many of you hunted moose before the age of 16?

I'd rather see very hard to draw permits like moose go to those who've applied for 20 plus years. Youth have an entire life ahead to draw.

Deer yes, but not moose.

If we're losing youth hunters because they can't hunt moose, they would quit anyway.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Miles on January 25, 2018, 06:17:55 PM
The best Washington moose hunting days have passed.   I’ve personally witnessed moose problems in other states, and a couple years ago I made a prediction (here on HW) that Washington would see the same fate.  This prediction was based off many similarities that I saw in varying locations(states).   Washington bios had their blinders on, and obviously weren’t observing what was happening in other parts of the country, think Minnesota, New Hampshire,Maine, Vermont.  Too bad the college grad experts that studied this stuff can’t make predictions...  they’d rather wait till they can prove a problem exists. 

Wolves aren’t your only problem with moose.   The ticks will kill more than wolves ever will.   
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bearpaw on January 25, 2018, 06:50:19 PM
my moose comments to WDFW:

Disease and wolves are negatively impacting our moose herds in the northeast, it's a good idea to make the moose permits bulls only to save the cows that reproduce. I strongly suggest eliminating all cow harvest in all units experiencing wolf predation on the moose herd.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 25, 2018, 07:44:57 PM
I don't consider moose to be an entry level animal for youth, especially being an OIL species in WA.  I'd rather see it be a disabled vet or senior hunt than a youth hunt, and only then if the carrying capacity of the land has been exceeded or met for a number of years and the cows need reduced.

Other than that, keep the predators at bay and build the herd, not shoot the breeders.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: buglebrush on January 25, 2018, 08:14:31 PM
No surprise here the Wolves are decimating the moose. 
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: NRA4LIFE on January 25, 2018, 08:31:14 PM
I drew the 2016 Mount Spokane North cow permit.  I made 4 scouting trips and spent 14 days afield and seen a total of 4 moose.  And I put a LOT of boot miles on all trips.  And glassed a million square miles probably.  I did get a moose but after a butt load of work.  My avatar shows my cow.  If I recall, there were 7 cow permits and 8 youth cow permits.  I have to admit that was way too many.  I am not in total agreement of eliminating all permits, but I would be an advocate of maybe 1 or 2 cow permits total in that area.  When I drew the permit I thought I'd see moose everywhere.  Not the case.  And, there are no wolves there, according to WDFW.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Miles on January 25, 2018, 08:34:46 PM
No surprise here the Wolves are decimating the moose. 


Moose are and have been struggling in locations that are wolf free.  While wolves certainly will have an impact, it’s the ticks WA should also  be concerned with. 
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: idaho guy on January 25, 2018, 08:45:06 PM
I drew the 2016 Mount Spokane North cow permit.  I made 4 scouting trips and spent 14 days afield and seen a total of 4 moose.  And I put a LOT of boot miles on all trips.  And glassed a million square miles probably.  I did get a moose but after a butt load of work.  My avatar shows my cow.  If I recall, there were 7 cow permits and 8 youth cow permits.  I have to admit that was way too many.  I am not in total agreement of eliminating all permits, but I would be an advocate of maybe 1 or 2 cow permits total in that area.  When I drew the permit I thought I'd see moose everywhere.  Not the case.  And, there are no wolves there, according to WDFW.

There are wolves on the Idaho side of the border in that exact area. I guess wdfw has been so accurate in documenting wolves I wouldn’t second guess them on this one. I own property on the idaho side and can guarantee their are wolves there but they must not cross borders
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 25, 2018, 08:47:27 PM
ticks have been around forever, it's not a new player in the moose mortality cycle nor can we control them.  Wolves are new, and controllable.   

I suppose we could fly around darting moose with ivomec. 

Or we need more gray jays and magpies  :dunno:

Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: idaho guy on January 25, 2018, 08:55:43 PM
No surprise here the Wolves are decimating the moose. 


Moose are and have been struggling in locations that are wolf free.  While wolves certainly will have an impact, it’s the ticks WA should also  be concerned with.

I agree with the ticks being a factor but I also remember people on this exact site predictions that moose would be in serious decline when the wolves showed up in Washington and also Idaho. There was also a lot of members on this site saying the anti wolf crowd were blowing everything out of proportion and that everything would be fine. Their exact prediction was the need to limit hunter opportunities and tags. I guess the guys crying wolf weren’t that far off after all.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Stein on January 25, 2018, 11:28:22 PM
Give them to the kids.  I’ll give up my opportunity any day if it means either a better future or more opportunity for kids.


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Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 25, 2018, 11:29:32 PM
No surprise here the Wolves are decimating the moose. 


Moose are and have been struggling in locations that are wolf free.  While wolves certainly will have an impact, it’s the ticks WA should also  be concerned with.

I agree with the ticks being a factor but I also remember people on this exact site predictions that moose would be in serious decline when the wolves showed up in Washington and also Idaho. There was also a lot of members on this site saying the anti wolf crowd were blowing everything out of proportion and that everything would be fine. Their exact prediction was the need to limit hunter opportunities and tags. I guess the guys crying wolf weren’t that far off after all.

I remember them saying it will make us better hunters
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 26, 2018, 06:57:42 AM
The issue we have in this state and many other states is we have effectively cut off our youth from having any real chance of drawing any of these tags in their lifetime. They are so behind the rest of us on points that they will never catch up. These youth cow tags are a unique opportunity for a few kids to have a special hunt for a special animal. If it's truly for preservation of the species then why are we hunting any of them at all right now?  To make the statement that if kids can't go moose hunting they'll quit hunting anyways is a fairly shallow thought. The reason we will lose youth is lack of success at all. This is a very difficult state for youth to be successful in so having some permit opportunities outside of the norm is a great way for a handful of them to find some success afield.

Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 26, 2018, 08:14:00 AM
The issue we have in this state and many other states is we have effectively cut off our youth from having any real chance of drawing any of these tags in their lifetime. They are so behind the rest of us on points that they will never catch up. These youth cow tags are a unique opportunity for a few kids to have a special hunt for a special animal. If it's truly for preservation of the species then why are we hunting any of them at all right now?  To make the statement that if kids can't go moose hunting they'll quit hunting anyways is a fairly shallow thought. The reason we will lose youth is lack of success at all. This is a very difficult state for youth to be successful in so having some permit opportunities outside of the norm is a great way for a handful of them to find some success afield.

I agree with Karl in as much as this:  If we are going to cut cow tags because moose are below carrying capacity, we should start with cutting tags for adults first.
Unfortunately, working the numbers, it appears that only about 1700 kids put in for 18 youth cow tags.  At least 7,000 adults are putting in for 33 cow tags.  Adults pay $7.10 for an application.  Kids pay $3.80.  That means the state is making just under $50,000 in non-refundable application fees on the adult applications, and only about $6,500 on youth apps.  That's probably why they are talking about cutting youth tags first.  Sad, but probably factual.

Whenever WDFW does something that I think I don't understand, I always ask myself: "How does this affect their revenue stream?"...

...and I usually find my answer pretty quickly  :(
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 26, 2018, 08:18:42 AM
 :yeah: unfortunately you are spot on.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: B4noon on January 26, 2018, 08:54:05 AM
Karl's right on fortunately i have had kids draw the youth moose and the experience has been incredible, I would love nothing more then the opportunity for myself to hunt a moose of any kind however i would gladly reduce my odds if it gave another youth the opportunity and experience my kids received.  WDFW is missing the boat and although it is reduced revenue now being that the kids get in at a lot cheaper rate if you get those kids hooked early WDFW would receive a lifetime of revenue.  Same with the Clemans ewe tags 10 tags great why not kick 2 of those over to youth and provide more opportunity.  Now they want to eliminate the opportunity to buy points until youth pass hunters ed not only does this reduce revenue in the short term but also long term.  I started buying points the year my kids were born which allowed them to have some great opportunity at an early age.  If you allow the option to buy points for youth that aren't hunting yet not only is it free revenue for the state but also creates an extremely high percentage of return customers who are committed and invested in the system.  I will add that benhuntins and bearpaws observations are unfortunately correct and in 3 to 5 years it probably wont matter what user group they allocate the tags for cause you will have to go to northwest trek to even see a moose the Idaho side of the border in unit 2 is crumbling along with it.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: X-Force on January 26, 2018, 09:25:22 AM
The issue we have in this state and many other states is we have effectively cut off our youth from having any real chance of drawing any of these tags in their lifetime. They are so behind the rest of us on points that they will never catch up. These youth cow tags are a unique opportunity for a few kids to have a special hunt for a special animal. If it's truly for preservation of the species then why are we hunting any of them at all right now?  To make the statement that if kids can't go moose hunting they'll quit hunting anyways is a fairly shallow thought. The reason we will lose youth is lack of success at all. This is a very difficult state for youth to be successful in so having some permit opportunities outside of the norm is a great way for a handful of them to find some success afield.

I agree with Karl in as much as this:  If we are going to cut cow tags because moose are below carrying capacity, we should start with cutting tags for adults first.
Unfortunately, working the numbers, it appears that only about 1700 kids put in for 18 youth cow tags.  At least 7,000 adults are putting in for 33 cow tags.  Adults pay $7.10 for an application.  Kids pay $3.80.  That means the state is making just under $50,000 in non-refundable application fees on the adult applications, and only about $6,500 on youth apps.  That's probably why they are talking about cutting youth tags first.  Sad, but probably factual.

Whenever WDFW does something that I think I don't understand, I always ask myself: "How does this affect their revenue stream?"...

...and I usually find my answer pretty quickly  :(

Its not revenue though you make a pretty compelling argument for that being the case. There is no such thing as "adult tags" everyone can put in for antlerless tags. Having more permits for a subgroup of hunters than are available to the general population is unproductive for the entire group. That is what would of happened had WDFW kept the youth permits at the same level. They had to reduce tags somewhere and WDFW chose to reduce youth cow permits to a level inline with other subgroups.

Master Hunter any moose permits went from 10 to 0 and no one is complaining about that?

Youth moose and sheep opportunities are so limited that this reduction will in no way be detrimental to the future of hunting or to an individual child's enjoyment of the woods.

If people want to really change draw odds for the better and to improve hunter/youth recruitment for permit applications do some math and have WDFW employ Idaho's system... or even more strict only one species (deer or elk) and dramatically increase odds.

This is all coming from a guy with 2 girls and who has been buying points for them since they were born.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 26, 2018, 09:32:17 AM
Increasing the herd means more tags for everyone.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 26, 2018, 09:39:52 AM
Increasing the herd means more tags for everyone.
that's why there shouldn't be any tags.  If it's really that dire of a situation then there needs to be a moratorium for a few years.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bearpaw on January 26, 2018, 09:47:17 AM
Increasing the herd means more tags for everyone.
that's why there shouldn't be any tags.  If it's really that dire of a situation then there needs to be a moratorium for a few years.

I don't think it hurts to harvest bulls, unless cows weren't being bred, we aren't at that point with the bulls!
Do the math on taking out 10 cows a year and their reproductive potential over a course of 10 years, I know it isn't all that simple, but they conveys the reasoning for saving cows when a herd needs to grow.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: huntnphool on January 26, 2018, 09:50:13 AM
The issue we have in this state and many other states is we have effectively cut off our youth from having any real chance of drawing any of these tags in their lifetime. They are so behind the rest of us on points that they will never catch up.

 I would think attrition will help today's kids soon enough, the average age of Washington state hunters has to be increasing yearly.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: hunter399 on January 26, 2018, 09:57:54 AM
I guess my problem is why not reduce these tags the past few years ,instead of cutting it completely.I just don't like idea of make as much money as we can,then oops populations in trouble let's cut it type attitude.

I do agree revenue ,selling tags does play a part in management when it should not ,herd health,herd populations should be a concern every year not every three years. :twocents:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 26, 2018, 10:06:30 AM
Increasing the herd means more tags for everyone.
that's why there shouldn't be any tags.  If it's really that dire of a situation then there needs to be a moratorium for a few years.

I wonder if they made the change to upfront the tag fee's it used to be that way. It appears that other states require that to put in for the draws they have as well. And some of those are a lot more funds.

But I have been in favor of this since the start.    :tup:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bearpaw on January 26, 2018, 10:08:10 AM
Increasing the herd means more tags for everyone.
that's why there shouldn't be any tags.  If it's really that dire of a situation then there needs to be a moratorium for a few years.

I wonder if they made the change to upfront the tag fee's it used to be that way. It appears that other states require that to put in for the draws they have as well. And some of those are a lot more funds.

I doubt they would do that, the more who apply the more they make! Which explains why we have so many categories to draw for!
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 26, 2018, 10:09:50 AM
Sadly I know that!!!  :yeah:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: goosehunter12 on January 26, 2018, 11:20:09 AM
I Agree, this is not right for our youth, I have know 2 kids that have drawn in the last 5 years and it was the highlight of their fall, told my 11 year old this and he also agreed it isn't right.  Below is the comment I submitted, had to shorten it a bit because you are only allowed 1,000 characters max


As a parent of youth hunters we do not need to loose any opportunities for our youth.  Last summer when the first surveys came out a question on balancing the antlerless tags between all the user groups.  What is currently being proposed is not balanced at all and only hurts our youth hunters.  In 2017 there where the following number of applicants per group, antlerless 8,383, 65 and over 1,478, disabled 863, youth 1,838.  Youth make up almost 15% of the total applicants, more than the 65 and over and disabled groups.  So why was the youth group so drastically reduced to only 1 tag if the intent was balance the tags between all the user groups?  It appears the total antlerless tags was reduced from 58 in 2017 to a proposed number of 42 in 2018 (assuming the 74 tags in one area was a typo and should be 4).  So the youth will only be getting around 2% of the total tags, I feel this should be more balance and they should get at least 15% of the tags or even a few more.



Thanks, Jeff

Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 26, 2018, 12:14:49 PM
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on January 26, 2018, 12:19:58 PM
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Dhoey07 on January 26, 2018, 12:44:45 PM
IMHO, not allowing a youth the opportunity to shoot a moose isn't going to discouraged anyone from becoming a life long hunter.  Rarely is the harvest of an animal the reason that kids take to woods in the first place.  The opportunity to hunt a moose, goat or sheep or any other difficult to draw tag, I see as the apex of one's time in the woods. Years of hard work and attrition getting paid off in a hunt of a lifetime. 
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: benhuntin on January 26, 2018, 12:56:32 PM
This youth argument has been on here before. You are either for youth special draws or basically completely against it. As seen again on this thread.


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Title: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: benhuntin on January 26, 2018, 01:01:00 PM
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?
68 available cow tags last year. Looks to be 40-45 this year.


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Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bearpaw on January 26, 2018, 01:08:05 PM
This youth argument has been on here before. You are either for youth special draws or basically completely against it. As seen again on this thread.


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That's not entirely accurate, for example, I'm totally for allowing youth extra opportunity as long as herds can support the impact. When herds are down I think all or most antlerless harvest should be stopped until herds recover. A good example, I thought antlerless deer harvest should be reduced in NE WA after we had the big blue tongue die off, they did and we saved a lot of does. We are two years away from that and seeing more does, I agreed with the WDFW's proposal this year to increase antlerless harvest somewhat. In a year or two given reasonable winters I bet we can get back to season long youth/disabled/senior antlerless and offering more doe permits to all other hunters in each unit unless predation seems to be preventing a recovery.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 26, 2018, 01:18:58 PM
youth went from 18 tags down to 1     :chuckle:

The ONLY reason to leave 1 tag on the table is for the uninformed people to buy into the draw.

People who've been putting in for it will continue instead of going to put in for it, can't find it, then get all bent they couldn't put in for their kids' youth tag not knowing there's only 1 tag     :lol4:




are we seriously squabbling over these scraps?  The joke is on us (those that put in for it anyways)
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: benhuntin on January 26, 2018, 01:24:28 PM
This youth argument has been on here before. You are either for youth special draws or basically completely against it. As seen again on this thread.


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That's not entirely accurate, for example, I'm totally for allowing youth extra opportunity as long as herds can support the impact. When herds are down I think all or most antlerless harvest should be stopped until herds recover. A good example, I thought antlerless deer harvest should be reduced in NE WA after we had the big blue tongue die off, they did and we saved a lot of does. We are two years away from that and seeing more does, I agreed with the WDFW's proposal this year to increase antlerless harvest somewhat. In a year or two given reasonable winters I bet we can get back to season long youth/disabled/senior antlerless and offering more doe permits to all other hunters in each unit unless predation seems to be preventing a recovery.
So you agree that the youth tags should be cut by 95%. And the general by only a few. Youth took the brunt of this cut. I have one youth left and none have ever drawn a Moose tag (all aged out with 8-9 points each). Everyone on here that is saying youth don’t need to hunt Moose should go on a youth Moose hunt and see if it’s not a great experience for a young hunter.  As most people on here no I moose hunt a little bit. Some of my best hunts are with youth and disabled hunters that are just trying to fill a cow tag. Not the trophy hunter that is looking for the next state record.  All this being said we all need to stop killing cows for a few years or Moose in Washington will be a non huntable species.


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Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: benhuntin on January 26, 2018, 01:26:41 PM
youth went from 18 tags down to 1     :chuckle:

The ONLY reason to leave 1 tag on the table is for the uninformed people to buy into the draw.

People who've been putting in for it will continue instead of going to put in for it, can't find it, then get all bent they couldn't put in for their kids' youth tag not knowing there's only 1 tag     :lol4:




are we seriously squabbling over these scraps?  The joke is on us (those that put in for it anyways)
Mine will not be putting in and it’s his last year with nine points


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Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on January 26, 2018, 01:33:37 PM
youth went from 18 tags down to 1     :chuckle:

The ONLY reason to leave 1 tag on the table is for the uninformed people to buy into the draw.

People who've been putting in for it will continue instead of going to put in for it, can't find it, then get all bent they couldn't put in for their kids' youth tag not knowing there's only 1 tag     :lol4:




are we seriously squabbling over these scraps?  The joke is on us (those that put in for it anyways)

I agree it's a joke that there is only 1 youth moose tag, but I don't agree that only the uninformed will apply. I'll put my 12 year old daughter in for it even though odds of drawing are almost impossible. What choice do I have? She's got 9 points, for $3.30 I might as well donate the money for the very small chance that she might draw. I'll also put her in for the bull tags and the regular antlerless tags but for a few more dollars might as well try for the 1 youth tag as well.

I will be sending in comments and asking them to increase the youth tags though, and hopefully they will.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 26, 2018, 01:36:37 PM
Get used too it, this is just the beginning.   Moose tags are going to go down every cycle from here on out.


Moose are peaked dontcha know     :lol4:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on January 26, 2018, 01:41:58 PM
It's fine, I expect I'll be taking my daughters hunting in Idaho and Wyoming in the future, more than we'll be hunting in Washington.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 26, 2018, 02:06:06 PM
youth went from 18 tags down to 1     :chuckle:

The ONLY reason to leave 1 tag on the table is for the uninformed people to buy into the draw.

People who've been putting in for it will continue instead of going to put in for it, can't find it, then get all bent they couldn't put in for their kids' youth tag not knowing there's only 1 tag     :lol4:




are we seriously squabbling over these scraps?  The joke is on us (those that put in for it anyways)

I agree it's a joke that there is only 1 youth moose tag, but I don't agree that only the uninformed will apply. I'll put my 12 year old daughter in for it even though odds of drawing are almost impossible. What choice do I have? She's got 9 points, for $3.30 I might as well donate the money for the very small chance that she might draw. I'll also put her in for the bull tags and the regular antlerless tags but for a few more dollars might as well try for the 1 youth tag as well.

I will be sending in comments and asking them to increase the youth tags though, and hopefully they will.

At least you know the joke even as you stick out your chin for that $3.20 slap in the face, but hey, it's just a latte' right?  Doesn't hurt much.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on January 26, 2018, 02:20:51 PM
youth went from 18 tags down to 1     :chuckle:

The ONLY reason to leave 1 tag on the table is for the uninformed people to buy into the draw.

People who've been putting in for it will continue instead of going to put in for it, can't find it, then get all bent they couldn't put in for their kids' youth tag not knowing there's only 1 tag     :lol4:




are we seriously squabbling over these scraps?  The joke is on us (those that put in for it anyways)

I agree it's a joke that there is only 1 youth moose tag, but I don't agree that only the uninformed will apply. I'll put my 12 year old daughter in for it even though odds of drawing are almost impossible. What choice do I have? She's got 9 points, for $3.30 I might as well donate the money for the very small chance that she might draw. I'll also put her in for the bull tags and the regular antlerless tags but for a few more dollars might as well try for the 1 youth tag as well.

I will be sending in comments and asking them to increase the youth tags though, and hopefully they will.

At least you know the joke even as you stick out your chin for that $3.20 slap in the face, but hey, it's just a latte' right?  Doesn't hurt much.

Hey what the heck, some people spend money on lottery tickets, I'll spend my money on special hunt applications, even if the odds are only 1 in 1800.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on January 26, 2018, 02:23:52 PM
I just sent this comment in on the proposed moose permits:

Quote
I understand cow moose harvest needs to be reduced and I'm fine with that, but I'd like to see just a few more youth tags, rather than only 1. Last year there were 1,861 applicants for 18 youth antlerless moose tags. With only 1 tag for over 1800 applicants, you might as well just eliminate that category entirely. And maybe that's an option? I think it would be fair to do that if the points those kids have could be transferred over to the regular antlerless category.

One change I've asked for in the past, and will now again, is to make the antlerless moose tags once in a lifetime just like the bull moose tags. If someone gets the opportunity to hunt moose in Washington, I feel like one time is enough whether they hunted bulls or cows. Most people will NEVER draw a moose tag, any moose tag, so I think it's unfair that some people could possibly hunt moose more than once.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Bob33 on January 26, 2018, 02:29:54 PM
I think one’s odds of getting a moose permit would be far better by purchasing $10 worth of the cryptocurrencies like Ripple, Ethereum, and Ripple. If one of them goes up 1,000 fold you have $10,000 to go towards a guided hunt. The odds of that happening are arguably better than getting a  youth permit that you can only get drawn for during a brief number of years.

 
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: buglebrush on January 26, 2018, 09:51:22 PM
I drew the 2016 Mount Spokane North cow permit.  I made 4 scouting trips and spent 14 days afield and seen a total of 4 moose.  And I put a LOT of boot miles on all trips.  And glassed a million square miles probably.  I did get a moose but after a butt load of work.  My avatar shows my cow.  If I recall, there were 7 cow permits and 8 youth cow permits.  I have to admit that was way too many.  I am not in total agreement of eliminating all permits, but I would be an advocate of maybe 1 or 2 cow permits total in that area.  When I drew the permit I thought I'd see moose everywhere.  Not the case.  And, there are no wolves there, according to WDFW.

Actually there are wolves in that area.  I've seen them. 
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bearpaw on January 26, 2018, 11:44:13 PM
This youth argument has been on here before. You are either for youth special draws or basically completely against it. As seen again on this thread.


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That's not entirely accurate, for example, I'm totally for allowing youth extra opportunity as long as herds can support the impact. When herds are down I think all or most antlerless harvest should be stopped until herds recover. A good example, I thought antlerless deer harvest should be reduced in NE WA after we had the big blue tongue die off, they did and we saved a lot of does. We are two years away from that and seeing more does, I agreed with the WDFW's proposal this year to increase antlerless harvest somewhat. In a year or two given reasonable winters I bet we can get back to season long youth/disabled/senior antlerless and offering more doe permits to all other hunters in each unit unless predation seems to be preventing a recovery.
So you agree that the youth tags should be cut by 95%. And the general by only a few. Youth took the brunt of this cut. I have one youth left and none have ever drawn a Moose tag (all aged out with 8-9 points each). Everyone on here that is saying youth don’t need to hunt Moose should go on a youth Moose hunt and see if it’s not a great experience for a young hunter.  As most people on here no I moose hunt a little bit. Some of my best hunts are with youth and disabled hunters that are just trying to fill a cow tag. Not the trophy hunter that is looking for the next state record.  All this being said we all need to stop killing cows for a few years or Moose in Washington will be a non huntable species.


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YES, ALL COW TAGS SHOULD BE ELIMINATED IN MOST UNITS!
Give the youth some bull tags, I'm all for getting youth involved but not at the expense of the herd! Giving them bull tags will not impact the herd the same way that killing cows will.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: NRA4LIFE on January 27, 2018, 03:00:00 AM
Buglebrush, I was of course being in jest.  Sorry for any misunderstanding.  You are correct, there are most definitely wolves there. 

What I could not understand,  was there were 24 total moose permits in that area that year, if I recall.  Way too many. I know a lot of you are aware that the vast majority of the moose are concentrated in a very small percentage of the unit.  I was thrilled with the opportunity but I do agree that the cow permits should be OIL.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bearpaw on January 27, 2018, 10:20:23 AM
I drew the 2016 Mount Spokane North cow permit.  I made 4 scouting trips and spent 14 days afield and seen a total of 4 moose.  And I put a LOT of boot miles on all trips.  And glassed a million square miles probably.  I did get a moose but after a butt load of work.  My avatar shows my cow.  If I recall, there were 7 cow permits and 8 youth cow permits.  I have to admit that was way too many.  I am not in total agreement of eliminating all permits, but I would be an advocate of maybe 1 or 2 cow permits total in that area.  When I drew the permit I thought I'd see moose everywhere.  Not the case.  And, there are no wolves there, according to WDFW.

Actually there are wolves in that area.  I've seen them.

I've seen wolf tracks there too, but I think there was a study done close to there and most of the moose are dieing from ticks in that southern study area. There used to be enough moose in that unit to support the number of tags, it wasn't a problem, I would see 5 to 20 moose most days I hunted. But, now that numbers have really dropped I think we need to save the cows to have the best chance at rebuilding the herd. That is another one of the units that is really hurting compared to what used to exist there.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 27, 2018, 10:23:16 AM
If it's a small concentrated area we should be darting the cows with ivomec
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bearpaw on January 27, 2018, 10:25:16 AM
If it's a small concentrated area we should be darting the cows with ivomec

Have bio's determined that works?
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 27, 2018, 10:28:56 AM
Ya, works on literally everything, even humans (not in the USA though)

They use ivomec treated corn to kill deer ticks off deer in heavily hit areas, I've never heard of being used on moose but it would work.  If they could bait moose with corn that would work too, but with moose I think darting might be the most effective


you can rub it on, inject it or ingest it.   the ticks would suck the blood and be poisoned and fall off 


You could even use a drone to dart the moose

Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bearpaw on January 27, 2018, 10:59:06 AM
Ya, works on literally everything, even humans (not in the USA though)

They use ivomec treated corn to kill deer ticks off deer in heavily hit areas, I've never heard of being used on moose but it would work.  If they could bait moose with corn that would work too, but with moose I think darting might be the most effective


you can rub it on, inject it or ingest it.   the ticks would suck the blood and be poisoned and fall off 


You could even use a drone to dart the moose


Interesting, sounds like if WDFW organized some volunteers we could save some moose. I would gladly volunteer for moose darting, I bet lots of other hunters would too! I wonder what would happen if the same moose got darted more than once? Overdose?
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 27, 2018, 11:15:17 AM
If you're curious

http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2344&Itemid=2996

Mechanism of Action of Ivermectin
As all macrocyclic lactones, ivermectin acts as agonist of the GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) neurotransmitter in nerve cells and also binds to glutamate-gated chloride channels in nerve and muscle cells of invertebrates. In both cases it blocks the transmission of neuronal signals of the parasites, which are paralyzed and expelled out of the body, or they starve. It also affects the reproduction of some parasites by diminishing oviposition or inducing an abnormal oogenesis.

In mammals the GABA receptors occur only in the central nervous system (CNS), i.e. in the brain and the spinal chord. But mammals have a so-called blood-brain barrier that prevents microscopic objects and large molecules to get into the brain. Consequently macrocyclic lactones are much less toxic to mammals than to parasites without such a barrier, which allows quite high safety margins for use on livestock and pets. A notable exception to this are dog breeds that carry the MDR-1 gene defect (see later).


check out swine  :o


Swine

Swine tolerate ivermectin very well.
Doses 10 to 50 times higher than the therapeutic dose of 0.3 mg/kg (single subcutaneous injection) caused no toxic symptoms.
A single subcutaneous injection of 30 mg/kg (100 times the therapeutic dose) causes lethargy, ataxia (uncoordinated movements), mydriasis (dilatation of the pupils) and tremor (uncoordinated trembling or shaking movements).
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 27, 2018, 11:22:42 AM
For deer


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8667385


Systemic treatment of white-tailed deer with ivermectin-medicated bait to control free-living populations of lone star ticks (Acari:Ixodidae).
Pound JM1, Miller JA, George JE, Oehler DD, Harmel DE.
Author information
Abstract
Whole-kernel corn was treated with 10 mg ivermectin per 0.45 kg corn and fed at rate of approximately .45 kg/deer per day to white-tailed deer confined in the treatment pasture, whereas deer in an adjacent control pasture received a similar ration of untreated corn. Treatments were dispensed from February through September of 1992 and 1993, and free-living populations of lone star ticks. Amblyomma americanum (L.), were monitored in both pastures using dry-ice traps to quantify nymphs and adults and flip-cloths to assay the relative abundance of larval masses. Control values that were calculated for all ticks collected in both pastures during 1993 showed 83.4% fewer adults, 92.4% fewer nymphs and 100.0% fewer larval masses in the treatment versus control pasture. Serum ivermectin concentrations in treated deer averaged 21.7 and 28.3 ppb during 1992 and 1993, respectively. These values compared favorably with the goal concentration of 30.0 ppb which was anticipated under ideal conditions. This study demonstrates that a freely consumed, systemically active acaricidal bait ingested by white-tailed deer under nearly wild conditions can significantly reduce the abundance of all stages of free-living long star ticks.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: KFhunter on January 27, 2018, 11:33:23 AM
This is talking about moose ticks prior to ivomec being on the market, but it's a facinating article about raising moose

https://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/specialstock/resources/Haigh%27s%20notes/Moose.pdf




Here it's talking about moose racing and how they almost always beat the best horses, it also says moose riding was outlawed because the RCMP couldn't catch the villains on a moose  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: buglebrush on January 27, 2018, 12:07:04 PM
Darting moose would be totally awesome!  Really should do that too.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 29, 2018, 05:20:41 PM
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf

Ok, so let me get this straight:
There were 18 youth tags, now there will be one.
There were 32 cow moose tags, there are still going to be at least 32.

Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?

Again... I ask myself "Why did WDFW do that.." and my answer has to be (again).  How does this affect their revenue stream?
You see, if they eliminate the youth tags altogether... then they lose out on the kids that will put in for them (lost revenue). 
And they left the regular cow tags the same.  Why would they do that?
Because they are making 10 times more money off that draw.

Tell me $$ isn't driving this.

For the record: I know the moose population is hurting up there... I've seen it.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't eliminate youth tags, but I think we should eliminate the same percentage of regular cow moose tags.   :twocents:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on January 29, 2018, 05:46:24 PM
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf

Ok, so let me get this straight:
There were 18 youth tags, now there will be one.
There were 32 cow moose tags, there are still going to be at least 32.

Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?

Again... I ask myself "Why did WDFW do that.." and my answer has to be (again).  How does this affect their revenue stream?
You see, if they eliminate the youth tags altogether... then they lose out on the kids that will put in for them (lost revenue). 
And they left the regular cow tags the same.  Why would they do that?
Because they are making 10 times more money off that draw.

Tell me $$ isn't driving this.

For the record: I know the moose population is hurting up there... I've seen it.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't eliminate youth tags, but I think we should eliminate the same percentage of regular cow moose tags.   :twocents:

Agree! 
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: buglebrush on January 29, 2018, 06:04:46 PM
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf

Ok, so let me get this straight:
There were 18 youth tags, now there will be one.
There were 32 cow moose tags, there are still going to be at least 32.

Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?

Again... I ask myself "Why did WDFW do that.." and my answer has to be (again).  How does this affect their revenue stream?
You see, if they eliminate the youth tags altogether... then they lose out on the kids that will put in for them (lost revenue). 
And they left the regular cow tags the same.  Why would they do that?
Because they are making 10 times more money off that draw.

Tell me $$ isn't driving this.

For the record: I know the moose population is hurting up there... I've seen it.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't eliminate youth tags, but I think we should eliminate the same percentage of regular cow moose tags.   :twocents:

Agree, and any decision WDFW makes seems to be driven by either money or politics not sound management / hunter opportunity. 
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bearpaw on January 30, 2018, 11:35:59 AM
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf

Ok, so let me get this straight:
There were 18 youth tags, now there will be one.
There were 32 cow moose tags, there are still going to be at least 32.

Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?

Again... I ask myself "Why did WDFW do that.." and my answer has to be (again).  How does this affect their revenue stream?
You see, if they eliminate the youth tags altogether... then they lose out on the kids that will put in for them (lost revenue). 
And they left the regular cow tags the same.  Why would they do that?
Because they are making 10 times more money off that draw.

Tell me $$ isn't driving this.

For the record: I know the moose population is hurting up there... I've seen it.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't eliminate youth tags, but I think we should eliminate the same percentage of regular cow moose tags.   :twocents:

Agree!

 :yeah: agree x3
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Gringo31 on January 30, 2018, 02:41:04 PM
Quote
Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?


To keep that category open for $$$$$ generated on folks willing to pay for the chance.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 30, 2018, 03:18:58 PM
Ding, Ding, winner winner, chicken dinner! $$$$$$$
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Whitpirate on January 31, 2018, 08:46:28 AM
I've got to agree with benhuntin as well.  I have a 10 year old that I would LOVE to see draw a youth moose tag, but when I go home to visit family and friends (I grew up in Kettle Falls), the moose population just isn't there anymore.  My BIL works for the highway dept in Steven's Co.  He keeps an eye out for them, and has seen a drastic reduction in numbers.  2 of my buddies that are loggers (and have max points for moose) say the same thing.  We are all a little scared to draw a tag right now to be honest.  There are still bulls out there, but not nearly what there were 5 or 6 years ago.
The truth is that if the moose aren't at carrying capacity, you have to rebuild the population by not killing the cows.  Youth tags are cow tags.   :dunno:

Then replace it with a bull tag.  And all adult tags are ANY moose.  Not bull.

Cutting our nose off in spite of our face to continue to diminish youth opportunity.  My 13 year old knows of 2 other kids in his school that hunt.  2!  This is a school of 400-600 kids.  Sad testament to our times.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on January 31, 2018, 08:53:23 AM
The "any moose" tags are being changed to bull only tags.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Matth on January 31, 2018, 09:11:05 AM
This youth argument has been on here before. You are either for youth special draws or basically completely against it. As seen again on this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's not entirely accurate, for example, I'm totally for allowing youth extra opportunity as long as herds can support the impact. When herds are down I think all or most antlerless harvest should be stopped until herds recover. A good example, I thought antlerless deer harvest should be reduced in NE WA after we had the big blue tongue die off, they did and we saved a lot of does. We are two years away from that and seeing more does, I agreed with the WDFW's proposal this year to increase antlerless harvest somewhat. In a year or two given reasonable winters I bet we can get back to season long youth/disabled/senior antlerless and offering more doe permits to all other hunters in each unit unless predation seems to be preventing a recovery.
Spot on
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: jamesfromseattle on January 31, 2018, 09:13:23 AM
I've got to agree with benhuntin as well.  I have a 10 year old that I would LOVE to see draw a youth moose tag, but when I go home to visit family and friends (I grew up in Kettle Falls), the moose population just isn't there anymore.  My BIL works for the highway dept in Steven's Co.  He keeps an eye out for them, and has seen a drastic reduction in numbers.  2 of my buddies that are loggers (and have max points for moose) say the same thing.  We are all a little scared to draw a tag right now to be honest.  There are still bulls out there, but not nearly what there were 5 or 6 years ago.
The truth is that if the moose aren't at carrying capacity, you have to rebuild the population by not killing the cows.  Youth tags are cow tags.   :dunno:

Then replace it with a bull tag.  And all adult tags are ANY moose.  Not bull.

Cutting our nose off in spite of our face to continue to diminish youth opportunity.  My 13 year old knows of 2 other kids in his school that hunt.  2!  This is a school of 400-600 kids.  Sad testament to our times.


That’s two more than I knew in high school. Even if it’s not with moose tags, we need more youth opportunity for big game (maybe for small game too but I don’t know anything about small game hunting or its regs). I really like the idea of Oregon’s “first time” program. Would love to see something like that up here.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: X-Force on January 31, 2018, 09:43:24 AM
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf

Ok, so let me get this straight:
There were 18 youth tags, now there will be one.
There were 32 cow moose tags, there are still going to be at least 32.

Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?

Again... I ask myself "Why did WDFW do that.." and my answer has to be (again).  How does this affect their revenue stream?
You see, if they eliminate the youth tags altogether... then they lose out on the kids that will put in for them (lost revenue). 
And they left the regular cow tags the same.  Why would they do that?
Because they are making 10 times more money off that draw.

Tell me $$ isn't driving this.

For the record: I know the moose population is hurting up there... I've seen it.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't eliminate youth tags, but I think we should eliminate the same percentage of regular cow moose tags.   :twocents:

That isn't true.

Yes youth permits went down from 18 to 1 but there weren't just 32 antlerless permits last year there was also 104 general any moose permits and 10 any moose Master Hunter permits.
The latest harvest reports 2016
Any moose permits
75 bulls were harvested 13 cows
To say that WDFW is restricting antlerless permits for youth is bs. They can apply for antlerless permits like the rest of us and the rest of use lost any moose for bull only.

If people really want to complain why not complain about the draw odds and breaking every species into little sub groups for permits. Increase draw odds for anyone to draw the permit they want... pick 1 species 2 options and no special categories (you can still have youth, disabled, over 65 etc but not as a sub category but under the umbrella of the whole species.) First option would be where you use your points second option would be only on leftover tags from the first option and no points used for that draw... So second deer, antlerless etc wouldn't necessarily require points to draw.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on January 31, 2018, 09:53:56 AM
They really can't change how the point system works now that it's already been in place several years. It was extremely unfair when they did it the first time. I agree all the extra categories were not necessary but now that we have them I think they should just keep it the way it is.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Bob33 on January 31, 2018, 10:09:58 AM
There were 18 youth moose permits last year for 1800 applicants which means 99% of the applicants didn’t draw. I don’t buy the argument that eliminating the 18 youth moose permits will have a significant impact on youth hunting. There are hundreds of youth deer permits, and most are relatively easy to draw. The last few years the Seattle Puget Sound chapter of Safari Club has sponsored a free youth deer hunt for ten youth hunters, and the number of applicants is usually less than 30. Why is that?

Take a youth upland bird hunting or waterfowl hunting where they’ll shoot more than once. Teach them that hunting is much more than simply harvesting an animal. I started elk hunting with my dad when I was 12, and didn’t shoot an elk for more than 15 years of hunting with him but I have nothing but fond memories of those times.

And there isn’t an “Adult Moose permit” category; anyone with a hunting license can apply including a youth.

I’ll a big advocate of youth hunters, but this isn’t the issue to make much progress with.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: huntnphool on January 31, 2018, 10:25:54 AM
They really can't change how the point system works now that it's already been in place several years. It was extremely unfair when they did it the first time. I agree all the extra categories were not necessary but now that we have them I think they should just keep it the way it is.

 They can change it, they won't because it generates revenue.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: X-Force on January 31, 2018, 10:47:52 AM
They really can't change how the point system works now that it's already been in place several years. It was extremely unfair when they did it the first time. I agree all the extra categories were not necessary but now that we have them I think they should just keep it the way it is.

 They can change it, they won't because it generates revenue.

That and they have changed it since the switch adding conflict goat, moving quality and buck/bull permits around to entice people to apply for multiple categories.

Looking at how bad the odds are I'm waiting for Washington to come out with a Super Draw like Wyoming... allocate 25% of all tags to new special, more expensive draw to increase your odds...
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: wolfbait on February 02, 2018, 05:26:19 AM
I drew the 2016 Mount Spokane North cow permit.  I made 4 scouting trips and spent 14 days afield and seen a total of 4 moose.  And I put a LOT of boot miles on all trips.  And glassed a million square miles probably.  I did get a moose but after a butt load of work.  My avatar shows my cow.  If I recall, there were 7 cow permits and 8 youth cow permits.  I have to admit that was way too many.  I am not in total agreement of eliminating all permits, but I would be an advocate of maybe 1 or 2 cow permits total in that area.  When I drew the permit I thought I'd see moose everywhere.  Not the case.  And, there are no wolves there, according to WDFW.

There are wolves on the Idaho side of the border in that exact area. I guess wdfw has been so accurate in documenting wolves I wouldn’t second guess them on this one. I own property on the idaho side and can guarantee their are wolves there but they must not cross borders

The only time wolves cross borders, is when they are "migrating" to a new state.....

For more information contact the USFWS relocation teams.


Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: wolfbait on February 02, 2018, 05:31:56 AM
No surprise here the Wolves are decimating the moose. 


Moose are and have been struggling in locations that are wolf free.  While wolves certainly will have an impact, it’s the ticks WA should also  be concerned with.

I agree with the ticks being a factor but I also remember people on this exact site predictions that moose would be in serious decline when the wolves showed up in Washington and also Idaho. There was also a lot of members on this site saying the anti wolf crowd were blowing everything out of proportion and that everything would be fine. Their exact prediction was the need to limit hunter opportunities and tags. I guess the guys crying wolf weren’t that far off after all.

The guys crying wolf didn't have their heads buried in the sand........

Moose, elk, deer etc. won't matter if WDFW and crew keep protections on the wolves. It's bad enough that cougar/bear hunting is limited, wolves are the tipping point.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 02, 2018, 05:34:14 AM
So what's your suggestion to what should be done?
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: wolfbait on February 02, 2018, 05:54:19 AM
So what's your suggestion to what should be done?


I have heard of a couple of ideas that seemed to be working in other states, unfortunately this being a public forum, watched by wolf loving screamers, I will have to reframe from sharing.

If you was to PM me I would be happy to pass the information along.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: 180-GRAIN on February 02, 2018, 07:40:06 AM
I commented on this with the department. Told them all cow tags should go to youth and disabled, 65 older hunters. Also told them I think if they do take all the youth tags away they need to limit non-resident quota to 10% like most other states so more resident hunters are awarded tags and youths eventually will have a shot. Its going to be hard enough for them to draw as is in there lifetime.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: hunter399 on February 02, 2018, 01:42:57 PM
This is where all the moose have gone ! Check it out!

Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bearpaw on February 02, 2018, 02:02:05 PM
The "any moose" tags are being changed to bull only tags.

 :yeah:  They are beginning to understand they need to conserve. Now eliminate cow tags completely in any unit where the #days per kill is increasing (that's probably the only way I think WDFW can currently judge fluctuation in moose population levels). Give the kids some of the bull tags. If you hunters are as big on kids as you say then give up some of the bull tags!  :twocents:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: buglebrush on February 03, 2018, 09:38:43 AM
They really can't change how the point system works now that it's already been in place several years. It was extremely unfair when they did it the first time. I agree all the extra categories were not necessary but now that we have them I think they should just keep it the way it is.

 They can change it, they won't because it generates revenue.

 It's crazy how bad the draw odds are in this state.  IMO Either choose one species only of Sheep, Goat, Moose or only two out of Deer, Elk, Bear.  Draw odds would go through the roof; and as for it being unfair to people with points it would be just the opposite!    Those with stockpiled points in many categories would be way ahead of  the game!  Sure you'd have to prioritize, but your odds of drawing everything would be so much better even if it would necessarily string it out over ten years.   :twocents: :twocents:
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on February 03, 2018, 10:01:47 AM
I'd be fine with only applying for moose, since I already drew sheep, and have never applied for mountain goat, but it wouldn't be fair to others who haven't drawn any of the three.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 03, 2018, 10:17:10 AM
I'd be fine with only applying for moose, since I already drew sheep, and have never applied for mountain goat, but it wouldn't be fair to others who haven't drawn any of the three.

You don't think trading three draws at 1,000 to one for one draw at 333 to one would be fair? And if they drew for whatever they applied for, they could switch to a different species in the future.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on February 03, 2018, 10:49:32 AM
I'd be fine with only applying for moose, since I already drew sheep, and have never applied for mountain goat, but it wouldn't be fair to others who haven't drawn any of the three.

You don't think trading three draws at 1,000 to one for one draw at 333 to one would be fair? And if they drew for whatever they applied for, they could switch to a different species in the future.

It would be fine if it weren't for the point system, but if I was still applying for moose and sheep I wouldn't think it would be fair to all of a sudden say I had to pick only one. If there were no points, then yeah, it wouldn't be a big deal. Everything would be so much easier if we didn't have a point system. But no worries, it will never be an option anyway as it would decrease revenue to the WDFW.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Pegasus on February 03, 2018, 12:53:53 PM
Let's face it. Many tags for the kids end up being Dad's tag anyways. Same thing for many spouses that don't hunt but they put in for various tags. This year while permit elk hunting I hate to say almost every vehicle I passed had three or four hunters with rifles with only one having a tag. I am sure they were all just bear hunting.  :chuckle:This was before the general season opened. Any bull seen was immediately shot at by all of the occupants of the vehicles. Unfortunately this is the reality of the permit drawing and even extends into the general seasons.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Miles on February 03, 2018, 02:11:36 PM
Let's face it. Many tags for the kids end up being Dad's tag anyways. Same thing for many spouses that don't hunt but they put in for various tags. This year while permit elk hunting I hate to say almost every vehicle I passed had three or four hunters with rifles with only one having a tag. I am sure they were all just bear hunting.  :chuckle:This was before the general season opened. Any bull seen was immediately shot at by all of the occupants of the vehicles. Unfortunately this is the reality of the permit drawing and even extends into the general seasons.

Wow.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 03, 2018, 04:14:54 PM
I'd be fine with only applying for moose, since I already drew sheep, and have never applied for mountain goat, but it wouldn't be fair to others who haven't drawn any of the three.

You don't think trading three draws at 1,000 to one for one draw at 333 to one would be fair? And if they drew for whatever they applied for, they could switch to a different species in the future.


It would be fine if it weren't for the point system, but if I was still applying for moose and sheep I wouldn't think it would be fair to all of a sudden say I had to pick only one. If there were no points, then yeah, it wouldn't be a big deal. Everything would be so much easier if we didn't have a point system. But no worries, it will never be an option anyway as it would decrease revenue to the WDFW.


But everyone would have to make the same choice so there is no unfairness that I can see. No one gets an advantage other than everyone gets better draw odds.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on February 03, 2018, 04:21:17 PM
I'd be fine with only applying for moose, since I already drew sheep, and have never applied for mountain goat, but it wouldn't be fair to others who haven't drawn any of the three.

You don't think trading three draws at 1,000 to one for one draw at 333 to one would be fair? And if they drew for whatever they applied for, they could switch to a different species in the future.


It would be fine if it weren't for the point system, but if I was still applying for moose and sheep I wouldn't think it would be fair to all of a sudden say I had to pick only one. If there were no points, then yeah, it wouldn't be a big deal. Everything would be so much easier if we didn't have a point system. But no worries, it will never be an option anyway as it would decrease revenue to the WDFW.


But everyone would have to make the same choice so there is no unfairness that I can see. No one gets an advantage other than everyone gets better draw odds.

Not really better odds though. If you put in for all three, you have a chance of drawing any of the the three. Restrict it to only one, and then you're down to only one chance to draw. Sure there might be less applicants for each one, but at best I think your odds would stay the same.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: buglebrush on February 03, 2018, 08:00:41 PM
I'd be fine with only applying for moose, since I already drew sheep, and have never applied for mountain goat, but it wouldn't be fair to others who haven't drawn any of the three.

You don't think trading three draws at 1,000 to one for one draw at 333 to one would be fair? And if they drew for whatever they applied for, they could switch to a different species in the future.


It would be fine if it weren't for the point system, but if I was still applying for moose and sheep I wouldn't think it would be fair to all of a sudden say I had to pick only one. If there were no points, then yeah, it wouldn't be a big deal. Everything would be so much easier if we didn't have a point system. But no worries, it will never be an option anyway as it would decrease revenue to the WDFW.


But everyone would have to make the same choice so there is no unfairness that I can see. No one gets an advantage other than everyone gets better draw odds.

Not really better odds though. If you put in for all three, you have a chance of drawing any of the the three. Restrict it to only one, and then you're down to only one chance to draw. Sure there might be less applicants for each one, but at best I think your odds would stay the same.

you're wrong.  Way better odds, because of the huge reduction in numbers of people applying for your chosen tag.  Plus if you're someone who already has points in multiple category's you're way ahead of the game as others will now only collect a point for one species each year.  It's clearly a win, win.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: bobcat on February 03, 2018, 08:31:56 PM
I'd be fine with only applying for moose, since I already drew sheep, and have never applied for mountain goat, but it wouldn't be fair to others who haven't drawn any of the three.

You don't think trading three draws at 1,000 to one for one draw at 333 to one would be fair? And if they drew for whatever they applied for, they could switch to a different species in the future.


It would be fine if it weren't for the point system, but if I was still applying for moose and sheep I wouldn't think it would be fair to all of a sudden say I had to pick only one. If there were no points, then yeah, it wouldn't be a big deal. Everything would be so much easier if we didn't have a point system. But no worries, it will never be an option anyway as it would decrease revenue to the WDFW.


But everyone would have to make the same choice so there is no unfairness that I can see. No one gets an advantage other than everyone gets better draw odds.

Not really better odds though. If you put in for all three, you have a chance of drawing any of the the three. Restrict it to only one, and then you're down to only one chance to draw. Sure there might be less applicants for each one, but at best I think your odds would stay the same.

you're wrong.  Way better odds, because of the huge reduction in numbers of people applying for your chosen tag.  Plus if you're someone who already has points in multiple category's you're way ahead of the game as others will now only collect a point for one species each year.  It's clearly a win, win.

You don't get it. Sure, better odds for one species. But you're only in for one, instead of three. That reduces your odds of being drawn for one of the three. Let's just say you don't have a preference, you just would like to draw any of the three. Having a chance in three different draws is better than having a chance at only one draw.
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 04, 2018, 12:06:02 AM
That's the thought process that gets people to buy every lotto ticket at the grocery store. lol  Can't win if you don't have a ticket!
Title: Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
Post by: Falcon on February 04, 2018, 08:55:29 AM

There were 18 youth moose permits last year for 1800 applicants which means 99% of the applicants didn’t draw. I don’t buy the argument that eliminating the 18 youth moose permits will have a significant impact on youth hunting. There are hundreds of youth deer permits, and most are relatively easy to draw. The last few years the Seattle Puget Sound chapter of Safari Club has sponsored a free youth deer hunt for ten youth hunters, and the number of applicants is usually less than 30. Why is that?

Take a youth upland bird hunting or waterfowl hunting where they’ll shoot more than once. Teach them that hunting is much more than simply harvesting an animal. I started elk hunting with my dad when I was 12, and didn’t shoot an elk for more than 15 years of hunting with him but I have nothing but fond memories of those

And there isn’t an “Adult Moose permit” category; anyone with a hunting license can apply including a youth.

I’ll a big advocate of youth hunters, but this isn’t the issue to make much progress with.
[/quote]

 :yeah: I couldn’t agree more.  Spot on :tup:
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