Hunting Washington Forum

Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: jasnt on March 13, 2018, 06:48:44 PM

Title: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 13, 2018, 06:48:44 PM
We all had to start some where. Many new folks getting in to long range so I thought we should have a long range 101 thread. A place to post info to help new comers shorten the learning curve.  Please post up some info or tips that helped your long range pursuits.

Besides learning to reload this info was a huge eye opener to me. When I first started shooting long range I'd use weather station listed preasure and it drove me crazy adjusting bc and speed trying to get my ballistic calculator to line up with my actual dope. Finially some one passed on this info and suddenly everything lined up  :IBCOOL:


Barometric Pressure vs Station Pressure
Barometric pressure is also known as sea level corrected pressure, and is what the weather station and airports report because itís useful for pilots and making weather assessments.  Barometric pressure is not the actual air pressure where you are, rather itís a number thatís corrected to sea level.  In order to determine the actual air pressure where you are (which is what the ballistics program cares about), you have to account for the effects of altitude.  However if you have a handheld weather meter like a Kestrel, you can measure Station Pressure directly which is the actual air pressure where you are.  This is the preferred method of inputting pressure data because itís one less input and relies on only one measurement instead of two.

A common error is to mistake station pressure for barometric or vice versa.  The consequence of this error is that the wrong air density gets applied which degrades the accuracy of trajectory predictions.  This error is increasingly more severe the higher up you are above sea level.
Refer to the image on the right for proper set-up of the atmospheric pressure inputs.  Note the reference altitude is set to 0 ft in the Kestrel which indicates itís displaying uncorrected station pressure, and the Pressure is Absolute box is checked in the program indicating itís using station pressure.

To further clarify the output from the Kestrel, here is an excerpt from the Kestrel userís manual: ďSome final notes Ė If you wish to know the actual or station pressure for your location (such as for engine tuning), simply set the reference altitude on the BARO screen to ď0Ē.  In this case, the Kestrel Meter will not make any adjustment and will display the measured value. (Engine tuning and ballistics software sometimes refer to atmospheric or station pressure as ďabsolute pressure.Ē  These applications are concerned with the actual air density, as opposed to pressure gradients relating to weather, so barometric pressure is less useful.Ē




http://appliedballisticsllc.com/ufaqs/barometric-pressure-vs-station-pressure/

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: trophyhunt on March 13, 2018, 07:27:11 PM
A member on here has a huskemaw scope for sale at a great price, thatís a good start to long range shooting.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 13, 2018, 07:31:37 PM
A decent rule of thumb is 1 inch pressure per 1000 feet elevation. Not exact depending on weather but will get you close.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 13, 2018, 08:18:58 PM
My favorite bit of advise to give new shooters:

Buy the best equipment in your price range, and just go shoot at stuff.

It's easy to get caught up in all the gear and gadgets, always chasing the next "must have" trinket. There's no need for a $2K scope, $3K rifle and custom loaded ultra precise ammo. You can head out with an average factory rifle, with a decent scope ($300-500) and good factory ammo and hit stuff at 1000 yards with very little effort.

Most of the time when I go shooting, I don't even bother with atmospheric conditions. I get a range, an elevation, a wild guess on the wind and I pull the trigger. The most amazing part of it, is that I have pretty darn good luck actually hitting stuff doing this. I learn something from every shot that I take. Instead of going back and fiddling with my adjustments or changing inputs in the ballistic calculator when I miss, I go over everything I've learned from previous shots and just send another round to see where it ends up.

Ballistic calculators are constantly wrong when it comes to wind calls. Just because you have a 3-4 mph right to left wind at your position doesn't mean diddly at a target that's 1700 yards and two valleys away. You can't accurately measure the wind at the target, up drafts, down drafts, cross winds, the changes in humidity if you're shooting over water, or the effect your man bun has on the airflow at your muzzle. :chuckle:

One of the best shots I've ever made which was both witnessed and recorded was a cold bore shot at a 30" rock at exactly 2600 yards. The guy I was with is obsessed with collecting data and punching numbers into his Kestrel. While he was busy twirling the Kestrel around like an Olympic ribbon dancer and getting readings, I got a range, figured my drops and decided that the wind would probably just counter my adjustment for coriolis and held dead on. Sure enough it was a solid hit. After my buddy was done factoring in the pressure changes caused by the sneeze of a Labradoodle 32 miles away he fired a shot and went over and to the right of the rock by about 6 feet with his rifle. He spent the next 5 minutes changing inputs to explain why he missed instead of just lobbing another shot over there.

Just go shoot stuff and learn something from each shot.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 13, 2018, 08:33:31 PM
 :yeah:
 
Plus sending rounds far away is a ton of fun. Even if they miss. I shot a lot of years dialing and just recording what my drops were that day at different ranges.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: SGTDuffman on March 13, 2018, 08:59:40 PM
Loading my own ammo helped me immensely. My rifle didn't much care for pricey target and hunting rounds, but when I took control of the length, charge, etc for the rounds, I was able to dial it in to something it liked. And switching from 168gr SMK to 175gr SMK helped beyond 600yds or so for my .308. You'd be surprised what even a "cheap" rifle could do with homemade loads that it likes.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Biggerhammer on March 13, 2018, 10:15:29 PM
Most over think it! The rest just glorify it. Simple as it gets.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: mountainman on March 13, 2018, 10:29:33 PM
Step one, an accurate gun. Step two, know how to shoot it. Step three, get out and shoot the conditions. Experience comes from being in the field and actually doing it, not just plinking at one of the local ranges at 300 yards👍
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on March 13, 2018, 11:17:52 PM
Breathing,practice right every time no exceptions.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Miles on March 14, 2018, 02:51:28 AM
Most over think it! The rest just glorify it. Simple as it gets.

Amazingly thought provoking.  You must be going for the HW quote of the month?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 14, 2018, 05:45:11 AM
Most over think it! The rest just glorify it. Simple as it gets.

Amazingly thought provoking.  You must be going for the HW quote of the month?
lets keep this on subject.  If you wanna talk smack at least add a tip or some info
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: SilkOnTheDrySide on March 14, 2018, 06:29:44 AM
Couple small tips (Iíve got lots of big ones).

Make sure you have a muzzlebrake. For two reasons.  Becoming proficient at Long range shooting takes practice, and sore shoulders all the time from a brutal recoil gun sucks.  Additionally, the muzzle brake really allows you to stay on target after the shot and smooths out the process.

Also, after ensuring four times that the gun is unloaded, practice dry firing in the living room. Even for five minutes. Work on your shot routine, make it the same every time. Breath. Squeeze through the trigger. Kill the flinch (if you have one)

Practicing dry firing was absolutely essential in killing my bear last year. We were surprised on the pack out and everything was a little rushed. I was still able to go through my routine. Dial. Level. Breathe. Squeeze.  All sub consciously.

That equated to a dead bear at 511 yards.


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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Branden on March 14, 2018, 06:38:47 AM
Make sure you actually have a scope that tracks correctly every time. Lots of scopes don't.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Bill W on March 14, 2018, 07:32:57 AM
what I'd like to see is long range shooting without the personal computers or wind meters and doing it by evaluating conditions and range estimation.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: SilkOnTheDrySide on March 14, 2018, 07:39:29 AM
what I'd like to see is long range shooting without the personal computers or wind meters and doing it by evaluating conditions and range estimation.

Why would you decrease available knowledge in a long range shot?

Why donít we switch to factory ammo and iron sights while we are at it...


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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: CAMPMEAT on March 14, 2018, 07:44:13 AM
what I'd like to see is long range shooting without the personal computers or wind meters and doing it by evaluating conditions and range estimation.


We used to do that. Take a look at targets without any rangefinders etc and have to shoot at the distance YOU thought it was. A lot of misses by hardcore shooters.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Bill W on March 14, 2018, 07:49:40 AM
what I'd like to see is long range shooting without the personal computers or wind meters and doing it by evaluating conditions and range estimation.


We used to do that. Take a look at targets without any rangefinders etc and have to shoot at the distance YOU thought it was. A lot of misses by hardcore shooters.

sorta changes the playing field, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: h20hunter on March 14, 2018, 08:02:44 AM
My plan as a novice that will soon have much longer range capability is to practice both ways. Good thread. Some chatter Id like to see om this topic would be using ffp and sfp scopes, how magnification affects retical hold over, and best practices in the field.  IE, hold over vs dialing and holding dead on.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 14, 2018, 08:09:55 AM
When I first started I had no ballistic calculator or range finder. I didn't reload. Only place I had to shoot was the family farm. I measured my ranges with 100' tape,  I figured out my dope by just walking it out 25-50 yards at a time.
But I also "wasted" a lot of rounds having no clue where I was missing due to heavy vegetation. Couldn't spot my misses. Started using huge targets which helped.

You don't need all the fancy gadgets to get started but I think they will help you practice better.
Sure any time behind the rifle is not wasted but if your not learning from that time it is wasted.

I use a ballistic calc, range finder, and custom loads because it has improved my practice. Learning how to properly use these tools makes even better practice.  I don't need these tools to shoot.  I learned with out them.  I only want them when working with a new load cause once I've learned my dope I don't use them,  But I think if I had these tools and the knowledge to use them when I started I would have learned faster.  I would have had less frustrations.

Practice dose not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. 




Parallax was my second eye opener.  I always thought it was for focus.

What is Parallax?
By Earl Hines, Best of the West Master Gunsmith

When we talk about the accuracy of a shooting system, there is one element that most people know little about, don't understand, don't know how to apply, or don't recognize. Many people have indicated that they understand it but when asked, they give an inaccurate response. What I am referring to is that thing called parallax. What is it? How does it work? How do I adjust it? Is it important? How do I know when it's correct? And where do I start? All important questions. I will try to answer all these and more.

First, what is parallax? Parallax is having both the cross hairs and the target in the same focal plane so that no matter where your eye looks through the rear lens, the cross hairs do not change position on the target. How can that be accomplished? Well, modern scope manufacturers provide us with an adjustment mechanism on the opposite side of the right and left windage adjuster. Older scopes without this adjustable feature were parallaxed at a given distance. Depending on the manufacturer, they would parallax their scope between approximately 75 yards to 150 yards. At normal hunting ranges of the time, maximum of 3 or 4 hundred yards, the small amount of parallax was minimal (but still there).



Letís look at understanding the concept of parallax. Look at the simple drawing in figure 1. In the center of the scope we have a cross, representing the reticle or cross hair inside your scope. On the left we have the part of the scope you look through, and on the right is our target. This being a simple drawing, we have no internal lenses or way to adjust for anything. If my position on the stock causes me to be absolute centered, then I would see along line ďAĒ through the scope. If, for some reason my position causes me to look through the bottom portion of the scope I would see my cross hair on the upper part of the target, line ďBĒ. That would be exactly opposite if I looked through the top of the scope, my cross hair would appear to be on the bottom of the target, line ďCĒ.



So as you can see, by looking through the scope in different positions the cross hair would appear in different locations on the target. Now to apply this to shooting this simple system on a rifle, you can also see that if you were exactly in the center for 5 shots with a perfect rifle, your group would be acceptable and in the center of the target. Look at figure 2. Same rifle but this time your eye is at the bottom line ďBĒ, and you fired 5 shots, again your group would be acceptable but at the bottom of the target because you would see the cross hair at the top of the target and compensate by moving your rifle cross hairs into the center of the target. Same for position ďCĒ. But if you are not in the same position or on the same line every time, as illustrated in figure 2, your group would be much larger and you would be wondering where your accuracy was. That is why modern scopes have parallax adjustment capabilities.



When correctly adjusted, the internal workings of the scope will be able to focus both the target and cross hairs at the same time (on the same focal plane) without movement no matter where your eye is located. This would be correct parallax. Look at figure 3. Most scopes have this adjustable knob on the left side or your scope. There are numbers, varying anywhere from 25 ft. to the lazy 8, indicating infinity. These are ďnotĒ and I repeat ďnotĒ exact ranges that you can rely on to be accurate. They are approximations. So now you must focus the rear ocular (the lens that you look through to see the target) so that these numbers are close to the distance you want the parallax to be ďfreeĒ. The term used when your scope is adjusted free of error or movement.



Start with your brand new scope. Turn the parallax knob to the lazy 8 position. Now go outside, with a clear blue sky preferably, point your scope towards the sky and turn your rear eye piece clockwise until it stops. Next, while looking through your scope, turn the ring counter clockwise. Turn the ring until the cross hair becomes crystal clear. Go slightly past this point and then back to insure that it is at the clearest point. At that point your scope is now adjusted to you and only you. The cross hair, being in focus, has been adjusted for your vision requirements to be correct for you. Now you can mount your scope on your highly accurate rifle and head to your favorite shooting spot and finish adjusting things.

If you are sighting in at 200 yards you need to secure your rifle on a bench using sand bags or a very steady bench rest and adjust your parallax knob to 200 yard setting. Position your rifle so that it is pointing at the center of the target when you let go of it. Now without touching your rifle, position your eye at a point so that you are looking through the very center part of the scope. This would be line ďAĒ in figure 1. Now move your eye, not the rifle, up and down, side to side and 45 degrees in all directions. If the cross hairs move in the opposite direction on the target from your eye position, you are ďoutĒ of adjustment. To correct or to verify that you are in adjustment, turn the parallax knob either clockwise or counterclockwise a little. This does not take a great amount of adjustment. The cross hair will stop moving if you were out of parallax, or have greater movement if you were already in correct adjustment. The thing that you are looking for is no movement of the cross hair on the target.

If you have a rifle capable of shooting 1 inch groups at 200 yards, even with the most expensive scope in the world, your group size and consistency cannot be realized until your scope is adjusted for you and you understand parallax and adjust for it. Is parallax important? You bet ya. Your bullets will not go where you want them to until you have perfect parallax.

It is all very simple once you have seen improperly adjusted parallax and a parallax free scope setting. Remember, your rifle can shoot no more accurately than your parallax capabilities.
Just a thought for you. How many rifles have been taken to a gunsmith because the rifle ďwould not groupĒ? You can bet many rebarrels, bedding jobs and such have been sold or charged for that only need parallax adjustment.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: CaNINE on March 14, 2018, 08:50:31 AM
I've learned a lot from Sam over the years. 

http://panhandleprecision.com/

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Netminder01 on March 14, 2018, 08:51:21 AM
tag
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: KFhunter on March 14, 2018, 08:59:48 AM
Here's some more discussion on parallax

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,223736.msg2976118.html#msg2976118
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: h20hunter on March 14, 2018, 09:02:02 AM
I've learned a lot from Sam over the years. 

http://panhandleprecision.com/

Recently found him....good vids.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: KFhunter on March 14, 2018, 09:06:36 AM
I really like this thread idea  :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: N7XW on March 14, 2018, 09:10:07 AM
As a long range newbie, I have a question. 

At what range do you typically need to do all these calculations?  I'd like to get into long range hunting and I'm thinking my shots should be limited to 600 yards.  Do I need to go through atmospheric pressure and other calculations/compensation or is drop and wind compensation sufficient for deer hunting at 600 yards?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 14, 2018, 09:31:21 AM
As a long range newbie, I have a question. 

At what range do you typically need to do all these calculations?  I'd like to get into long range hunting and I'm thinking my shots should be limited to 600 yards.  Do I need to go through atmospheric pressure and other calculations/compensation or is drop and wind compensation sufficient for deer hunting at 600 yards?

If you're setting your equipment at Westport sea level and hunting in high, dry, mountainous areas, it sure wouldn't hurt to make some little adjustments based on altitude and pressure.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: SilkOnTheDrySide on March 14, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
As a long range newbie, I have a question. 

At what range do you typically need to do all these calculations?  I'd like to get into long range hunting and I'm thinking my shots should be limited to 600 yards.  Do I need to go through atmospheric pressure and other calculations/compensation or is drop and wind compensation sufficient for deer hunting at 600 yards?


With a kestrel and a ballistics app on my phone I input all the data at the start of the shoot and youíre done. The only thing that TYPICALLY changes enough to matter is wind. Dope is math. Wind reads are what separates the men from the boys.

But wind is linear.

If you have a 1 MIL dial at 10mph, youíll have a 1.5 MIL dial at 15 MPH.

Also, Iíve come to the realization that most people (myself included) are terrible at judging wind speed before I saw actual wind speed through a wind meter.

Usually people drastically over estimate wind.


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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 14, 2018, 09:36:37 AM
At <600 preasure won't make a huge difference, not near as much as wind can.  I did a quick run of number with a 30/06 load and 180's. From 27.92-29.92 inHG was only half moa diff.  Problem with your thoughts is thinking that after you've shot 600y enough times that you won't want to shoot farther :chuckle: 
Wind will always be the biggest hurdle for long range.  Drop is the easy part. Learn to read and shoot in the wind well and you can shoot at any range.  Don't stay home when it's windy. Go shoot in the wind and rain. It will teach you far more than fair weather shooting
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 14, 2018, 10:01:05 AM
Wind will always be the biggest hurdle for long range.  Drop is the easy part. Learn to read and shoot in the wind well and you can shoot at any range.  Don't stay home when it's windy. Go shoot in the wind and rain. It will teach you far more than fair weather shooting

Shot a .223 cross canyon last weekend.  Only shot at 220 and later at 400.  Zero wind where I was and very little at the target but considerable wind that was hard to read in the open air between shooter and target.  Lighter bullets sure get thrown around in the wind!
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 14, 2018, 10:07:02 AM
Shooting "coyote sized" targets all winter for the past several years has really helped me get to know my weapons better. 

Range time is great but nothing builds your confidence like making it happen in the field and under crappy conditions.  This is particularly true for ranges where the action is typically fast.  That 350-500 yard range where I don't have time to consult dope charts is easily memorable. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 14, 2018, 11:55:57 AM
One more tip from a total non-expert and then I'll shut up.  Learning to adjust your parallax as you range and shoot is super helpful  :chuckle:

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Calvin Rayborn on March 14, 2018, 01:20:05 PM
Mil-dot
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: N7XW on March 14, 2018, 01:23:10 PM
Mil-dot

More of an MOA guy myself  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 14, 2018, 02:52:39 PM
Mil-dot

More of an MOA guy myself  :chuckle:
MOAs arenít near as tacticool sounding as mil dots
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 14, 2018, 04:40:53 PM
I'm prefer moa as well.

Had some fun at mica range today shooting in the wind and rain at 725 and 1000.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 14, 2018, 06:07:47 PM
I'm prefer moa as well.

Had some fun at mica range today shooting in the wind and rain at 725 and 1000.
Did you shoot at the bay chickens at 1000?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 14, 2018, 06:31:10 PM
I'm prefer moa as well.

Had some fun at mica range today shooting in the wind and rain at 725 and 1000.
Did you shoot at the bay chickens at 1000?
no was hard to see at 1000 due to the rain. We could hear my hits but no clue where the misses went.  Had right to left wind at the bench and left to right above the 725y targets.  Never missed one at 725, Over 30 rounds at those targets. Had a good time with my buddy. He took his scout out to 600 with his Nikon pistol scope.  Also shot an Es of 4 today testing the 105 hybrids.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: CarbonHunter on March 14, 2018, 06:52:51 PM
Iíve found shooting out to <500 yards to be doable with practice and I have gotten it done in the past. This year Iíve decided to invest in going out to a 1000 yards and I am trying to accomplish this without the need for a calculator in the field for every shot.

Iím hoping to have my new rifle around the first of June and am learning new things about reloading thanks to Panhandlepercsion that I never realized was so important. However with the more I learn it appears I probably could have achieved similar distances with the rifle Iíve used to shoot 500 with.

Good thread, I hope the pros keep the tips coming for us beginners.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 14, 2018, 09:14:31 PM
I'm prefer moa as well.

Had some fun at mica range today shooting in the wind and rain at 725 and 1000.
Did you shoot at the bay chickens at 1000?
no was hard to see at 1000 due to the rain. We could hear my hits but no clue where the misses went.  Had right to left wind at the bench and left to right above the 725y targets.  Never missed one at 725, Over 30 rounds at those targets. Had a good time with my buddy. He took his scout out to 600 with his Nikon pistol scope.  Also shot an Es of 4 today testing the 105 hybrids.
heck ya! Those baby chickens are meant little suckers and will bring your confidence down a notch or 2 for sure. Hahaha
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: shootem on March 14, 2018, 11:58:39 PM
tag
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Calvin Rayborn on March 15, 2018, 01:42:25 AM
Mil-dot

More of an MOA guy myself  :chuckle:
To each their own! That is a friggin awesome profile pic - is that a 'buru?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: biggfish on March 15, 2018, 03:07:35 AM
Mil-dot

More of an MOA guy myself  :chuckle:
MOAs arenít near as tacticool sounding as mil dots
If you're just trying to sound tacticool call it like it is, they're mil-radians.

Sent from my LG-K425 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 15, 2018, 08:19:35 AM
Let's talk about wind

One of my practice techniques is to pack my kestrel in my lunch box. On break I look around at trees or brush and try to guess the wind speeds. Then check with the kestrel.
When I first started I was always over estimating. I'm getting better but I decided to add mirage to it. I've found this is a bit more difficult for me so far. 
I try to shoot in the wind as often as possible and include my reading skills in the practice.

What else can I do to improve my wind skills?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: SilkOnTheDrySide on March 15, 2018, 09:13:28 AM
Let's talk about wind

One of my practice techniques is to pack my kestrel in my lunch box. On break I look around at trees or brush and try to guess the wind speeds. Then check with the kestrel.
When I first started I was always over estimating. I'm getting better but I decided to add mirage to it. I've found this is a bit more difficult for me so far. 
I try to shoot in the wind as often as possible and include my reading skills in the practice.

What else can I do to improve my wind skills?

I enjoy shooting canyons with opposing wind forces.

Some spots I shoot are 4-800 yards with draws that the wind gives opposing speeds.

The real way to practice wind is to just shoot it.


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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 15, 2018, 09:26:53 AM
Just to  clarify: While I agree there is no substitute for shooting in the wind I'm talking about practicing reading the wind even when you can't be behind the rifle.  Very few of us can shoot daily. I do plan my shoots when it will be windy so I can practce in real world conditions.  But I want to practice my skills when I can't be shooting aswell
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 17, 2018, 03:53:44 PM
Did a little practice today. Set up for a full value wind at 3-7mph.


shot a 1 moa rock at 1150 yards. First round hit.  3rd round hit at 1245 yards on 1 moa Rock.   I can't quite tell where I'm hitting at 1550. That's where I run out of dial at 54.2 moa.  Rocks measured with my scope.  A spotter would have been handy today.   All off the bi pod sitting position.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 17, 2018, 07:43:58 PM
Second focal plane vs first focal plane.

Personally sfp is what I prefer. Rarely am I shooting long range at lower than max power. I dial for distance and hold for wind. I don't like a huge cross hair at max power and I don't like losing my rectical at min power. This is just my preference.

Let's hear what you prefer and why
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Biggerhammer on March 17, 2018, 07:56:10 PM
Tried first focal... LAME. Second focal is great. MOA reticle, screw Mil's, we aren't in Europe.

Works for me.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: mountainman on March 17, 2018, 08:26:47 PM
Second focal plane vs first focal plane.

Personally sfp is what I prefer. Rarely am I shooting long range at lower than max power. I dial for distance and hold for wind. I don't like a huge cross hair at max power and I don't like losing my rectical at min power. This is just my preference.

Let's hear what you prefer and why
Same here. Ffp for hunting, sfp for long range varminting, competition, or whenever stretching out being 7- 800 yards. Mils or mins. Preference. Most who are outspoken on one or the other Haven't tried both. Boils down to what you learn best at. Moa tends to be more precise, mils a bit easier to calc and call. Most can't shoot the difference
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 17, 2018, 08:34:27 PM
Mil-dot

More of an MOA guy myself  :chuckle:
MOAs arenít near as tacticool sounding as mil dots
If you're just trying to sound tacticool call it like it is, they're mil-radians.

Sent from my LG-K425 using Tapatalk
Mil dot is a type of reticle. That reticle pattern is called mil dots... yes it uses milliradians as a measurement unit.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 17, 2018, 08:39:50 PM
Mils are so much easier to use.  1/1000 is a mil so whether yards or meters still works. At 1000 yards a mil is one yard. A tenth mil is 1/10 yard or 3.6 inches.
Now moa is 1/60th of a degree or approx an inch at 100 yards. So 1000 yards a mos is 10 inches. Just a more cumbersum computation.  But both can be gotten used to.   I pick the scope and if mils great otherwise moa is fine.  Have 1/8th moa on my 7x47 leupold and like it. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Biggerhammer on March 17, 2018, 09:54:50 PM
Been there done that. MOA. :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 18, 2018, 06:09:56 AM
Anealing brass. When and how often?

When I first learned to aneal I would do it once every 4 loadings. It worked well and my brass lasted a very long time.  I don't run high preasure so my primer pockets rarely open up.  As my skills improved I started chancing the acuracey rabbit.  Picked up a concentricity gage.  First lot I checked was a freshly anealed lot and my worst ones where a .0015" out.  I thought well that was a waste of money! But I continued to check them after sizing. 2nd loading I averaged .002-.003 still good but I wondered what I did differently.  3rd loading .002-.005   Hmmm. Fourth loading  .003-.007".  Now I was resizing some brass twice to straighten the bad ones. Then I check case length. Hmmm all different ranging .01".  I anealed resized and trimmed and checked again. .0015" extreme spred on concentricity.  I kept up this cycle for few weeks trying to figure out what I was doing wrong.  It finially dawned on me after reading an article about brass work hardening and spring back. I decided to do like some of the nut jobs online that preached about anealing every loading :yikes:

What happened? Well my brass stayed in the .001-.002 area for concentric, all my brass grew at the same rate with in .002".  Resizing was easier, seating was easier, trimming was easier.  Grouping improved at distance, Es/sd went down and most importantly confidence went up.
Now I'm one of those whack jobs online preaching about annealing every loading!

I used to anneal with a drill going super slow and a bit I made to hold the cases and then drop them in water to stop the heat from going down too far on the case.  Now I anneal by hand. Holding the brass by the head and turning it by hand. Then I set it on a tin plate to cool. No water mess or waiting for brass to dry, heat dosent go past the shoulders but maybe .1-.15"  still getting the same results but faster and less fuss. Typically when I finish the last peace I'm able to just start picking them up and place them in my loading block. They cool quickly.

Jmo based of my exp. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Bill W on March 18, 2018, 08:02:54 AM
Anealing brass. When and how often?

When I first learned to aneal I would do it once every 4 loadings. It worked well and my brass lasted a very long time.  I don't run high preasure so my primer pockets rarely open up.  As my skills improved I started chancing the acuracey rabbit.  Picked up a concentricity gage.  First lot I checked was a freshly anealed lot and my worst ones where a .0015" out.  I thought well that was a waste of money! But I continued to check them after sizing. 2nd loading I averaged .002-.003 still good but I wondered what I did differently.  3rd loading .002-.005   Hmmm. Fourth loading  .003-.007".  Now I was resizing some brass twice to straighten the bad ones. Then I check case length. Hmmm all different ranging .01".  I anealed resized and trimmed and checked again. .0015" extreme spred on concentricity.  I kept up this cycle for few weeks trying to figure out what I was doing wrong.  It finially dawned on me after reading an article about brass work hardening and spring back. I decided to do like some of the nut jobs online that preached about anealing every loading :yikes:

What happened? Well my brass stayed in the .001-.002 area for concentric, all my brass grew at the same rate with in .002".  Resizing was easier, seating was easier, trimming was easier.  Grouping improved at distance, Es/sd went down and most importantly confidence went up.
Now I'm one of those whack jobs online preaching about annealing every loading!

I used to anneal with a drill going super slow and a bit I made to hold the cases and then drop them in water to stop the heat from going down too far on the case.  Now I anneal by hand. Holding the brass by the head and turning it by hand. Then I set it on a tin plate to cool. No water mess or waiting for brass to dry, heat dosent go past the shoulders but maybe .1-.15"  still getting the same results but faster and less fuss. Typically when I finish the last peace I'm able to just start picking them up and place them in my loading block. They cool quickly.

Jmo based of my exp.

My assumption is you are using a standard die for resizing and not a neck bushing die.   I use a neck bushing die and my case necks stay straight and also don't grow.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: CaNINE on March 18, 2018, 08:26:49 AM
I've done similar experiments and watch accuracy go all to heck after several cycles without annealing. I now anneal after every firing cycle. Consistent neck tension and longer brass life. I anneal after cleaning and prior to full length resizing. These are hunting guns so I full length size every time. I don't use the expander ball though for neck sizing. I use a turning mandrel in a sinclair die body to ensure consistent and even 0.002 neck tension.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 18, 2018, 08:39:57 AM
It was a standard die.  This was few years ago. I do now use a bushing die. But annealing as I did fixed the issue I had with the std dies and other issues I had.   I continue to be happy with the results for the few min it adds to my loading time.   I prob should have had that info in the post.   If you want to try it and see if your happy with the results. If not continue doing it how you want to and enjoy life. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Bill W on March 18, 2018, 09:20:58 AM
I don't anneal and have loaded my cases numerous times.... probably at least 40 or more times.  As long as my primer pockets don't enlarge or the necks break off I'm good to go.   I have a set of 20 formed and neck turned cases that I shoot. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 18, 2018, 09:45:02 AM
I've done similar experiments and watch accuracy go all to heck after several cycles without annealing. I now anneal after every firing cycle. Consistent neck tension and longer brass life. I anneal after cleaning and prior to full length resizing. These are hunting guns so I full length size every time. I don't use the expander ball though for neck sizing. I use a turning mandrel in a sinclair die body to ensure consistent and even 0.002 neck tension.
:yeah: same exact results and method except neck size for best accuracy but hoping new custom whidden die will give me neck-size accuracy otherwise Im neck - neck - bump every 3 loadings.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 18, 2018, 10:24:49 AM
I personally feel you get more consistancey bumping every loading. I don't want something different every 3rd or forth loading. I want every loading to be exactly the same. Plus it's easier to keep track of if you do it the same every single time.  I used to trim every time aswell but did not see any improvement doing that in my loading practices so I do that as needed
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 18, 2018, 10:35:19 AM
After hearing the steps some of you guys take in brass prep I'm amazed that I ever hit anything! :chuckle:

I don't sort cases, I rarely trim them, I don't really like bushing dies, I anneal brass whenever I have time, I've never even considered owning a concentricity gauge, and every once in a while I might tumble my brass. :chuckle:

For optics I don't have a preference between MOA or MIL; I have both and like both. Heck, I even mix MOA turrets with MIL reticles on some scopes just to bug people. :tup: Depending on the type of shooting I'm doing, I like both FFP and SFP. SFP is better for shooting groups and dialing because of the ability to have a finer reticle. FFP is more fun when just playing "bet you can't hit that" and constantly making corrections at unknown ranges without having to worry about what magnification I'm on. I rarely shoot any of my scopes on max power, so having to make the correction to adjust the reticle scale to selected magnification on a SFP scope gets annoying.

That brings a good bit of advise for new LR shooters: You don't need a 32x scope to hit stuff at 1000 yards! Focus on optical quality and adjustment repeat-ability first. I'd take a 10x scope with good adjustments and clear glass over a 24x scope with OK adjustments and decent glass. I've spent a lot of time shooting at 1 MOA targets at 1500+ yards with 10-12x scopes and I've never felt like my magnification was holding me back.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: 87Ford on March 18, 2018, 10:43:18 AM
I used to anneal with a drill going super slow and a bit I made to hold the cases and then drop them in water to stop the heat from going down too far on the case.  Now I anneal by hand. Holding the brass by the head and turning it by hand. Then I set it on a tin plate to cool. No water mess or waiting for brass to dry, heat dosent go past the shoulders but maybe .1-.15"  still getting the same results but faster and less fuss. Typically when I finish the last peace I'm able to just start picking them up and place them in my loading block. They cool quickly.
jasnt, could you elaborate just a little on how you "anneal by hand"?  I started reloading a couple years ago and have not yet tried any kind od annealing.  I'm familiar with using a drill to turn the brass in a flame?  Wondering how you do it by hand?   
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 18, 2018, 10:56:13 AM
I used to anneal with a drill going super slow and a bit I made to hold the cases and then drop them in water to stop the heat from going down too far on the case.  Now I anneal by hand. Holding the brass by the head and turning it by hand. Then I set it on a tin plate to cool. No water mess or waiting for brass to dry, heat dosent go past the shoulders but maybe .1-.15"  still getting the same results but faster and less fuss. Typically when I finish the last peace I'm able to just start picking them up and place them in my loading block. They cool quickly.
jasnt, could you elaborate just a little on how you "anneal by hand"?  I started reloading a couple years ago and have not yet tried any kind od annealing.  I'm familiar with using a drill to turn the brass in a flame?  Wondering how you do it by hand?   

You do it very carefully and not on a 223 case. :chuckle: I started off doing it this way and it's fine for longer cases. It's hard to get the right temp or a consistent temp unless you know what you're doing. Tempilaq is your friend until you have a good feel for timing when annealing.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 18, 2018, 10:57:35 AM
I simply turn the brass with my fingers holding it at the case head.  While holding the case neck in the flame. It's done before the head gets too hot to hold. 223 is a bit tougher
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 18, 2018, 11:22:34 AM
After hearing the steps some of you guys take in brass prep I'm amazed that I ever hit anything! :chuckle:

I don't sort cases, I rarely trim them, I don't really like bushing dies, I anneal brass whenever I have time, I've never even considered owning a concentricity gauge, and every once in a while I might tumble my brass. :chuckle:

For optics I don't have a preference between MOA or MIL; I have both and like both. Heck, I even mix MOA turrets with MIL reticles on some scopes just to bug people. :tup: Depending on the type of shooting I'm doing, I like both FFP and SFP. SFP is better for shooting groups and dialing because of the ability to have a finer reticle. FFP is more fun when just playing "bet you can't hit that" and constantly making corrections at unknown ranges without having to worry about what magnification I'm on. I rarely shoot any of my scopes on max power, so having to make the correction to adjust the reticle scale to selected magnification on a SFP scope gets annoying.

That brings a good bit of advise for new LR shooters: You don't need a 32x scope to hit stuff at 1000 yards! Focus on optical quality and adjustment repeat-ability first. I'd take a 10x scope with good adjustments and clear glass over a 24x scope with OK adjustments and decent glass. I've spent a lot of time shooting at 1 MOA targets at 1500+ yards with 10-12x scopes and I've never felt like my magnification was holding me back.
   Alert for Beginners - Yorke shoots Cheytac pistols as his long range plinkers so take his advise in context  He could probably ring steel at a 1000 with your grandpa's 30-30.  :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: 87Ford on March 18, 2018, 11:41:19 AM
I simply turn the brass with my fingers holding it at the case head.  While holding the case neck in the flame. It's done before the head gets too hot to hold. 223 is a bit tougher
Makes sense.. I had never even heard of tempilaq until york mentioned it.  Lots to learn.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 18, 2018, 12:21:06 PM
I personally feel temp is not that critical.  After reading this article on brass I figured who could possibly tell you what temp is correct. I've annealed with a cutting torch when I used a home made bit for my drill which shielded the case walls below the shoulder. I got the mouths so hot they glowed bright and melted the mouth slightly so it was thicker at the mouth almost like lips. Resized and shot fine. Needed a good trim on the next reloading so I would not recommend doing it this hot but I don't think you need to control temp that much. If your seeing the oxidizing colors run your annealing.



This is what I learned working with cartridge brass ( 70 Cu- 30 Zn).

All brass of the same grade is not the same when specifying annealing temperature
Most yellow brass is manufactured from recycled brass, aka scrap
The use of recycled brass introduces impurities of iron, lead, tin, phosphorus . and others
Whne brass is annealed , it recrystallizes to an initial grain size that is dependent on the cold work in the brass along with prior in process hot anneals ( grain size) and purity.
Although brass with low imputities and sufficient cold work will recrystallize ( anneal) at 370 C. , it was common to anneal cartridge brass at 500C or higher to meet unique grain size requirments for shellcase.
To adjust for impuity levels in the brass, the brass was reclassified after melting and casting into sub categories ( about 5 ) for t purpsoe of specifying annealing parameters
The annealing temperature required to achieve uniform grain size varied by nearly 100 degrees C dependent on the impurity level
In the special case of a phosphorus impuity of greater than 0.001% in the presence of iron, we would bnot use this grade for shellcase as the annealing repsonse was very unpreditcable for the shellcase grain size specifications
There are other things we learned and applied that iI dont need to reveal - need some secrets.
I suspect brass is stil mostly manufactured from recycled brass with impurites , so I can see the annealing temperature requirement can vary from lot to lot and the degree of the anneal as measured by grain size will vary by prior cold workingÖ from 370 C. for high purity heavily cold worked brass to 600 C, for recycled brass loaded with iron up to 0.1% and phosphorous over 0.001%.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 18, 2018, 12:32:03 PM
Another benefit of anealing every loading is less work hardening between loading means less stress on the brass and if you believe the artical less heat needed to achieve full aneal. Jmo.  I figure it's in the can't hurt might help catagory
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 18, 2018, 12:56:30 PM
I just stick a deep wall socket in the cordless drill, spin brass over a wide flame propane torch for 5 seconds.  ( metronome app on phone to count) You can see the brass color turn a little shine to it and done.   Test in full dark to when you see any dull red in the brass and make sure you are not going that long.  Lapua brass can take a lot more heat than other but extra time not needed imo. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 18, 2018, 02:29:07 PM
Alert for Beginners - Yorke shoots Cheytac pistols as his long range plinkers so take his advise in context  He could probably ring steel at a 1000 with your grandpa's 30-30.  :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

You've got it backwards, I need all the help I can get to hit anything beyond 25 yards. I'd be lucky to shoot my own foot with a 30-30.  :hunt2:

For the record, I did try and hit a 24" gong at 1000 yards with a 14" 30-30 Contender years ago and the results were something I've tried hard to forget about. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jay.sharkbait on March 18, 2018, 03:59:37 PM
Alert for Beginners - Yorke shoots Cheytac pistols as his long range plinkers so take his advise in context  He could probably ring steel at a 1000 with your grandpa's 30-30.  :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

You've got it backwards, I need all the help I can get to hit anything beyond 25 yards. I'd be lucky to shoot my own foot with a 30-30.  :hunt2:

For the record, I did try and hit a 24" gong at 1000 yards with a 14" 30-30 Contender years ago and the results were something I've tried hard to forget about. :chuckle:

Don't give up... it just hasn't gotten there yet.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Alchase on March 18, 2018, 05:37:35 PM
After hearing the steps some of you guys take in brass prep I'm amazed that I ever hit anything! :chuckle:

I don't sort cases, I rarely trim them, I don't really like bushing dies, I anneal brass whenever I have time, I've never even considered owning a concentricity gauge, and every once in a while I might tumble my brass. :chuckle:

For optics I don't have a preference between MOA or MIL; I have both and like both. Heck, I even mix MOA turrets with MIL reticles on some scopes just to bug people. :tup: Depending on the type of shooting I'm doing, I like both FFP and SFP. SFP is better for shooting groups and dialing because of the ability to have a finer reticle. FFP is more fun when just playing "bet you can't hit that" and constantly making corrections at unknown ranges without having to worry about what magnification I'm on. I rarely shoot any of my scopes on max power, so having to make the correction to adjust the reticle scale to selected magnification on a SFP scope gets annoying.

That brings a good bit of advise for new LR shooters: You don't need a 32x scope to hit stuff at 1000 yards! Focus on optical quality and adjustment repeat-ability first. I'd take a 10x scope with good adjustments and clear glass over a 24x scope with OK adjustments and decent glass. I've spent a lot of time shooting at 1 MOA targets at 1500+ yards with 10-12x scopes and I've never felt like my magnification was holding me back.

So Kentucky windage is out of the question?
Can you tell it has been awhile since I have shot over 1000 yards?
 :dunno:

Nice post, it reminds us sometimes just shooting is more fun then the engineering and the science behind it.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 20, 2018, 10:27:00 AM
I've been thinking about getting a phone scope to record my shots threw my spotting scope. What are you guys doing to help spot when shooting solo?  Plus it would be nice to have some proof of my shots for all the haters to mope over lol. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 20, 2018, 10:30:48 AM
  :yeah: Tough to hear rock hits in the wind
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 20, 2018, 12:35:52 PM
  :yeah: Tough to hear rock hits in the wind
its not too bad if the wind is blowing at you. I normally see my hits in the scope but if I miss I may not see impact in the vegetation. Would be great to record it.  Atleast be able to see the trace.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 20, 2018, 01:07:22 PM
Phone scope on my spotter set up as close to the guns level and angle as I can get. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Timberstalker on March 20, 2018, 01:51:41 PM
Get an accurate sight height.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on March 20, 2018, 03:38:44 PM
 :yeah:   its most likely not 1.5.none of mine are. Most are 1.7-1.75
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 20, 2018, 04:21:06 PM
I've been thinking about getting a phone scope to record my shots threw my spotting scope. What are you guys doing to help spot when shooting solo?  Plus it would be nice to have some proof of my shots for all the haters to mope over lol.

I typically shoot alone so I use a GoPro Hero4 with a Phoneskope adapter on my spotting scope to spot my own hits (or misses :rolleyes:). This lets me control the camera from my phone without getting up. I can start, stop and review the video to make necessary corrections and download the video straight to my phone if I did something awesome that I just have to show somebody. :chuckle: Everything else I take home and edit on my laptop when I get home.

The only real issue with taking video through the spotter is that you lose a little image quality in the process. I can film in 1080p through a Swarovski spotter, but the image quality still degrades pretty quick.





Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 20, 2018, 04:45:14 PM


The only real issue with taking video through the spotter is that you lose a little image quality in the process. I can film in 1080p through a Swarovski spotter, but the image quality still degrades pretty quick.





That's a good point. I wonder how clear it would be with my phone.





[/quote]
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 20, 2018, 05:35:15 PM


The only real issue with taking video through the spotter is that you lose a little image quality in the process. I can film in 1080p through a Swarovski spotter, but the image quality still degrades pretty quick.


That's a good point. I wonder how clear it would be with my phone.


You'd still get good video quality since most phones take pretty amazing video these days.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 20, 2018, 05:39:10 PM
It does ok threw my scope. But my spotter is a cheapy. It's on the long upgrade list
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 20, 2018, 05:52:33 PM
You could make that work. This is 1200 yards through a NF ATACR on 25x with an old Iphone 5
(https://i.imgur.com/L66kQGX.jpg?1)

Quality optics and perfect conditions make everything look better. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 20, 2018, 06:07:40 PM
I've got an iPhone 5 as well but my scope is a viper PST.   Pic above is focused at 735 but you can see my 400 yard targets on the right.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 20, 2018, 07:45:20 PM
Iphone, swaro @ 1000. 
https://www.youtube.com/embed/TrDa8pDlygo (https://www.youtube.com/embed/TrDa8pDlygo)
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 22, 2018, 03:19:27 PM
Little more wind practice today. Still don't have a phone scope set up yet so just a few pics. 5-25 mph wind today. Thumping rocks at 845-877 yards. Think I may have found an area to shoot 1300 which about where I go sub sonic. I've heard that crossing that transonic regin can play havoc on a bullets flight. Any input on  >transonic range???
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 23, 2018, 06:42:59 AM
Thought I would share a little bit of what I found on transonic region flight.

Transonic Ballistics Effects Explained by Bryan Litz
What happens when the bullet slows to transonic speed, i.e. when the bullet slows to about 1340 feet per second? It is getting close to the speed of sound, close to the sound barrier. That is a bad place to fly for anything. In particular, for bullets that are spin-stabilized, what the sound barrier does to a bullet (as it flies near Mach 1) is that it has a de-stabilizing effect. The center of pressure moves forward, and the over-turning moment on the bullet gets greater. You must then ask: ďIs your bullet going to have enough gyroscopic stability to overcome the increasing dynamic instability thatís experienced at transonic speed?Ē

Some bullets do this better than others. Typically bullets that are shorter and have shallow boat-tail angles will track better through the transonic range. On the contrary, bullets that are longerÖ can experience a greater range of pitching and yawing in the transonic range that will depress their ballistic coefficients at that speed to greater or lesser extents depending on the exact conditions of the day. That makes it very hard to predict your trajectory for bullets like that through that speed range.

When you look at transonic effects on stability, youíre looking at reasons to maybe have a super-fast twist rate to stabilize your bullets, because youíre actually getting better performance ó youíre getting less drag and more BC from your bullets if they are spinning with a more rigid axis through the transonic flight range because theyíll be experiencing less pitching and yawing in their flight.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Bill W on March 23, 2018, 07:26:27 AM
As I learned it 2800 fps, 1800 fps and 1100 fps cause "bumps" to shooting accuracy. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 23, 2018, 11:00:12 AM
As I learned it 2800 fps, 1800 fps and 1100 fps cause "bumps" to shooting accuracy. 
can you elaborate on this
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Bill W on March 23, 2018, 11:19:18 AM
I read about it 20ish years ago and don't remember where I found it.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jaymark6655 on March 23, 2018, 11:22:25 AM
Probably due to using a G1 profile for a G7 shape, you have to adjust the BC being used as velocity changes to get a good matching curve that follows the actual drag curve.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2018, 03:12:35 PM
Thought I would share a little bit of what I found on transonic region flight.

Transonic Ballistics Effects Explained by Bryan Litz
What happens when the bullet slows to transonic speed, i.e. when the bullet slows to about 1340 feet per second? It is getting close to the speed of sound, close to the sound barrier. That is a bad place to fly for anything. In particular, for bullets that are spin-stabilized, what the sound barrier does to a bullet (as it flies near Mach 1) is that it has a de-stabilizing effect. The center of pressure moves forward, and the over-turning moment on the bullet gets greater. You must then ask: ďIs your bullet going to have enough gyroscopic stability to overcome the increasing dynamic instability thatís experienced at transonic speed?Ē

Some bullets do this better than others. Typically bullets that are shorter and have shallow boat-tail angles will track better through the transonic range. On the contrary, bullets that are longerÖ can experience a greater range of pitching and yawing in the transonic range that will depress their ballistic coefficients at that speed to greater or lesser extents depending on the exact conditions of the day. That makes it very hard to predict your trajectory for bullets like that through that speed range.

When you look at transonic effects on stability, youíre looking at reasons to maybe have a super-fast twist rate to stabilize your bullets, because youíre actually getting better performance ó youíre getting less drag and more BC from your bullets if they are spinning with a more rigid axis through the transonic flight range because theyíll be experiencing less pitching and yawing in their flight.
  :tup: Agree 100 percent.A lot happens to everything that drops below the speed of sound,It is quite violent in fact.Bullets start tumbling.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 23, 2018, 03:32:15 PM
Probably due to using a G1 profile for a G7 shape, you have to adjust the BC being used as velocity changes to get a good matching curve that follows the actual drag curve.
that makes perfect sence.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2018, 04:00:57 PM
https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-transonic-region/


Here's a pretty good read on it.   :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 24, 2018, 07:24:27 AM
https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-transonic-region/


Here's a pretty good read on it.   :tup:

I did read that article aswell. Found a little more at lrhm forum.  From my expirence the other day at 1550 I don't believe my bullets will stay stable through the transonic region. I'll continue to push it till it goes south to find my invisible wall range.

With all the talented lr guys here I thought this would stir up a little more talk about the subject.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 24, 2018, 05:05:58 PM
One of my favorite LR guns is a Striker in 284 Winchester. Shooting a 168gr Berger VLD @ 2760fps from the 19", 1-9" twist barrel I get good results out to about 1300 yards. At that point I'm in the high 1200fps range depending on conditions. Much past that and things just come off the rails. I'll get crazy errant shots, groups will double in size and I basically admit defeat. :chuckle:

When I had the 270 AR barrel up and running I shot the 135gr SMK @ 263fps from a 1-9" twist barrel. That gun was a realistic 1/2 MOA gun depending on the day (I always struggle to shoot ARs well). That load would drop down to about 1200fps at 900 yards or so depending on conditions. At 950 yards, all of the data from the ballistic apps was worthless even if calculated with a G7 BC. I had to model a custom drag curve for anything beyond 900 yards. I didn't like that, so I just spent a day shooting at ranges out to 1220 yards to get my actual drops and just gave on the ballistic apps for that gun.

Last example is pretty much any 338 shooting a 300gr OTM. This has held true in multiple 338 Edge rifles, the 338/375 Ruger rifle and pistol and the 338 SnipeTac rifle and pistol. The 300gr OTM just seems to perform well for me when going transonic. If I use a G7 BC, the data typically tracks very well even into subsonic flight. I'll still get the occasional odd shot in the 1200-1100fps range that just has a mind of it's own but for the most part the data is good. I've had very good luck with the 304gr Hammer Hunters as well in the same velocity range. I've had terrible luck with the Cutting Edge bullets though. With those I think its an issue with being under stabilized. Those bullets just seem to fall out of the sky sometimes. :dunno:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 25, 2018, 06:36:29 AM
Thank you yoke for that info.  My 300wm will need a new barrel soon and I've been thinking about re-barreling to 338rum.  My goal is one mile.    Other than the 338wm are there any of the 338's that will feed through my mag(3.5") and not need to swap out my bolt? Howa/vanguard action.  Suppose I could go single feed but would rather not do so. What kind of mods would need done to my action todo this and if I'm going that far should I go lapua mag?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 25, 2018, 09:28:32 AM
Thank you yoke for that info.  My 300wm will need a new barrel soon and I've been thinking about re-barreling to 338rum.  My goal is one mile.    Other than the 338wm are there any of the 338's that will feed through my mag(3.5") and not need to swap out my bolt? Howa/vanguard action.

I absolutely love the 338/375 Ruger. It duplicates 340 Weatherby and 330 Dakota performance and comes within 100fps of the 338 RUM. I shoot mostly 250gr bullets (SMK, Berger and Hornady HPBT) for targets and the 260gr Hammer Hunter for hunting. So far I've had 4 barrels in this chambering, 18", 22", 24" and 26" and they've all performed incredibly well. I shot out the 24" barrel after just short of 1500 rounds, sold the 22" and 26" barrels and still have the 18" barrel on my beloved Striker pistol which has close to 900 shots through it now. Total I've probably shot close to 3000 rounds through my various 338/3375 Rugers. :tup:

The 18" barrel gets 2650fps with 250gr bullet and a "moderate" load of H4350. The same load in the 26" barrel was just over 2800fps. I get 2745fps with H100-v and a 250gr bullet from the 18" barrel but accuracy isn't as good. You can easily get a 225gr bullet moving over 3000 fps from a 24" barrel if you want fast and flat. I got the 225 TTSX well into the 2800fps range from the 18" barrel.

I've never understood why the 338/375 Ruger hasn't been more popular. It runs circles around 33 Nosler using the same OAL and cheaper brass.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 25, 2018, 10:04:11 AM
Thank you yoke for that info.  My 300wm will need a new barrel soon and I've been thinking about re-barreling to 338rum.  My goal is one mile.    Other than the 338wm are there any of the 338's that will feed through my mag(3.5") and not need to swap out my bolt? Howa/vanguard action.


I've never understood why the 338/375 Ruger hasn't been more popular. It runs circles around 33 Nosler using the same OAL and cheaper brass.

I remember seeing a noted gunsmith said he had over a 1000 pieces of 338 norma and 338 lapua brass on hand but would still choose the 338/375 Ruger as his goto 338 choice. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 25, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
Do you neck down your brass @yorketransport
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 25, 2018, 01:55:28 PM
Do you neck down your brass @yorketransport

Yes, it's a simple one pass operation. I take 375 Ruger cases and run them into a 338 RCM die that's been adjusted to just kiss the shoulder. If I need to full length size the cases I just run them into a 375 Ruger FL die. I turn my necks just enough to clean them up, but my reamer cuts a no turn chamber.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 25, 2018, 02:24:18 PM
Do you neck down your brass @yorketransport

Yes, it's a simple one pass operation. I take 375 Ruger cases and run them into a 338 RCM die that's been adjusted to just kiss the shoulder. If I need to full length size the cases I just run them into a 375 Ruger FL die. I turn my necks just enough to clean them up, but my reamer cuts a no turn chamber.
the more I read about this cartrage the more I like it. And no mods to my action is a plus, should run in my dbl just fine.    Wonder what it would do threw a 28-30" tube. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Swiftkid on March 25, 2018, 04:07:10 PM
This is the first big block of text Iíve read off this forum in about 4 years, glad I got lucky and caught a gem. Simply great advice....just shoot.
My favorite bit of advise to give new shooters:

Buy the best equipment in your price range, and just go shoot at stuff.

It's easy to get caught up in all the gear and gadgets, always chasing the next "must have" trinket. There's no need for a $2K scope, $3K rifle and custom loaded ultra precise ammo. You can head out with an average factory rifle, with a decent scope ($300-500) and good factory ammo and hit stuff at 1000 yards with very little effort.

Most of the time when I go shooting, I don't even bother with atmospheric conditions. I get a range, an elevation, a wild guess on the wind and I pull the trigger. The most amazing part of it, is that I have pretty darn good luck actually hitting stuff doing this. I learn something from every shot that I take. Instead of going back and fiddling with my adjustments or changing inputs in the ballistic calculator when I miss, I go over everything I've learned from previous shots and just send another round to see where it ends up.

Ballistic calculators are constantly wrong when it comes to wind calls. Just because you have a 3-4 mph right to left wind at your position doesn't mean diddly at a target that's 1700 yards and two valleys away. You can't accurately measure the wind at the target, up drafts, down drafts, cross winds, the changes in humidity if you're shooting over water, or the effect your man bun has on the airflow at your muzzle. :chuckle:

One of the best shots I've ever made which was both witnessed and recorded was a cold bore shot at a 30" rock at exactly 2600 yards. The guy I was with is obsessed with collecting data and punching numbers into his Kestrel. While he was busy twirling the Kestrel around like an Olympic ribbon dancer and getting readings, I got a range, figured my drops and decided that the wind would probably just counter my adjustment for coriolis and held dead on. Sure enough it was a solid hit. After my buddy was done factoring in the pressure changes caused by the sneeze of a Labradoodle 32 miles away he fired a shot and went over and to the right of the rock by about 6 feet with his rifle. He spent the next 5 minutes changing inputs to explain why he missed instead of just lobbing another shot over there.

Just go shoot stuff and learn something from each shot.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 25, 2018, 05:13:22 PM
Do you neck down your brass @yorketransport

Yes, it's a simple one pass operation. I take 375 Ruger cases and run them into a 338 RCM die that's been adjusted to just kiss the shoulder. If I need to full length size the cases I just run them into a 375 Ruger FL die. I turn my necks just enough to clean them up, but my reamer cuts a no turn chamber.
can you share the specs of your reamer?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on March 25, 2018, 05:24:00 PM
Another piece of advice.
If you're interested in shooting long range get proficient in the shorter ranges first.Move out slowly.
If you're not consistent at short range yet you will not be at long ranges by even more of a margin.
If you want to be very good at long range be hard on yourself.Be accountable for every shot you make.If you are off its you not the wind,the other shooter to your side or whatever excuses are being used these days.  :tup:

Anybody and everybody can be a long range shooter,If the time and effort are put in to it.Even a blind man,I have seen it.With the right equipment.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 25, 2018, 06:08:03 PM
I would agree. If you can't shoot well at short range <500 than you shouldn't shoot farther.  But I've gotten many folks interested by dialing in my rifle and handing them a mag. The smile on a persons face after ringing steel the first time at almost half a mile is price less.  I don't think anyone can do it though. It takes a special person to dedicate enough time to the sport to get proficient. Most folks won't put in the time or $$. It's a passion not a hobby imo.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 25, 2018, 06:17:26 PM
Do you neck down your brass @yorketransport

Yes, it's a simple one pass operation. I take 375 Ruger cases and run them into a 338 RCM die that's been adjusted to just kiss the shoulder. If I need to full length size the cases I just run them into a 375 Ruger FL die. I turn my necks just enough to clean them up, but my reamer cuts a no turn chamber.
can you share the specs of your reamer?
Do you neck down your brass @yorketransport

Yes, it's a simple one pass operation. I take 375 Ruger cases and run them into a 338 RCM die that's been adjusted to just kiss the shoulder. If I need to full length size the cases I just run them into a 375 Ruger FL die. I turn my necks just enough to clean them up, but my reamer cuts a no turn chamber.
can you share the specs of your reamer?

I'll dig through the pile 'o prints and see if I can find it.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 26, 2018, 05:44:15 AM
Thank you sir.



Let's talk about equipment.

Rests
  Bipod vs bags
What do you prefer and why?   I am running bipod in the front and bag in the rear.  This seams to work best for me.  I have used my pack for front rest but I think I prefer the bipod.  Disclaimer: I have never used any bags made for shooting
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 26, 2018, 06:54:11 PM
I couldn't find my copy of the reamer print but here's the chamber portion of the QuickDesign spec sheet. I can send you the pdf of the full spec sheet too if you want it. This will match the PTG reamer marked 338/375 Ruger. If you ever want to use my reamer just let me know. :tup:
(https://i.imgur.com/lW4KO5b.jpg?1)

For gear I still like my Harris bipods. I've used the Atlas but they just feel like they're going to break. My favorite rear bags if I'm not hiking too far are 25# shot bags filled with cat litter. If I have to hike in a ways I'll just use my sweatshirt or something balled up under the toe of the stock.

Be sure to zero your gun using whatever gear you'll use in the field too. If I zero a rifle off of a bipod on the bench I'll hit somewhere completely different when shooting prone. With the specialty pistols I have to use the same rear bag or else my zero may be off by more than an inch at 100 yards.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 26, 2018, 07:33:47 PM
Thank you. Pm sent
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Alchase on March 26, 2018, 07:53:12 PM
This thread is full of good info!
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jaymark6655 on March 27, 2018, 04:32:11 AM
Thank you sir.



Let's talk about equipment.

Rests
  Bipod vs bags
What do you prefer and why?   I am running bipod in the front and bag in the rear.  This seams to work best for me.  I have used my pack for front rest but I think I prefer the bipod.  Disclaimer: I have never used any bags made for shooting

I like a bipod if I am shooting of dirt, off a wood or concrete they seem to bounce a little. I use a LaRue. I have two bags, one for the front when I am not using a bipod usually place on top of a pack and one for the rear. Both are exactly the same, a military boot sock filled with ~5000 airsoft pellets, sock tied and then fold over itself creating two layers of fabric. I have a video if you guys are interested.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 27, 2018, 05:11:45 AM
Thank you sir.



Let's talk about equipment.

Rests
  Bipod vs bags
What do you prefer and why?   I am running bipod in the front and bag in the rear.  This seams to work best for me.  I have used my pack for front rest but I think I prefer the bipod.  Disclaimer: I have never used any bags made for shooting

I like a bipod if I am shooting of dirt, off a wood or concrete they seem to bounce a little. I use a LaRue. I have two bags, one for the front when I am not using a bipod usually place on top of a pack and one for the rear. Both are exactly the same, a military boot sock filled with ~5000 airsoft pellets, sock tied and then fold over itself creating two layers of fabric. I have a video if you guys are interested.
lol my bag is also a sock but filled with barely......run what ya brung
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jaymark6655 on March 27, 2018, 09:51:16 AM
Thank you sir.



Let's talk about equipment.

Rests
  Bipod vs bags
What do you prefer and why?   I am running bipod in the front and bag in the rear.  This seams to work best for me.  I have used my pack for front rest but I think I prefer the bipod.  Disclaimer: I have never used any bags made for shooting

I like a bipod if I am shooting of dirt, off a wood or concrete they seem to bounce a little. I use a LaRue. I have two bags, one for the front when I am not using a bipod usually place on top of a pack and one for the rear. Both are exactly the same, a military boot sock filled with ~5000 airsoft pellets, sock tied and then fold over itself creating two layers of fabric. I have a video if you guys are interested.
lol my bag is also a sock but filled with barely......run what ya brung
I went pellets because I want something water proof and they ended up being super light, just make sure they aren't the biodegradable kind.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 27, 2018, 07:56:10 PM
I'll prob switch mine to corse sand when the ground does out better. We got tons of corse sand at the farm. I like free filling lol.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 29, 2018, 05:25:51 PM
Let's see some target stands.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on March 29, 2018, 05:44:53 PM
mine are out but i do want to ask,What size is common?

100 200 300 ----------------------- 1000 yards.or does everyone just go with so many moa?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 29, 2018, 06:58:22 PM
Right now I only have a few. Paper at 100,chest  size steel at 400 and a 3"x3 1/2" at 400 and 10" at 735.  I'll take some pics Saturday
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 31, 2018, 03:04:40 PM
Wasn't able to get pics today. I picked up a novagrade phone scope and though I was getting great video at 735 but phone died right as I was getting behind the rifle.   Phone dies fast when it gets cold!!!  Likening the phone scope except it's kinda heavy.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on March 31, 2018, 06:48:38 PM
Let's see some target stands.

I use one of the Cloudbreak Design target stands when I set up a gong. My typical target stand is the rock face or dirt bank that I'm shooting at though. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 31, 2018, 08:21:58 PM
Let's see some target stands.

I use one of the Cloudbreak Design target stands when I set up a gong. My typical target stand is the rock face or dirt bank that I'm shooting at though. :chuckle:

 :yeah: rocks are cheap and easy when available. Lots of rocks even show hits pretty decent
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 31, 2018, 08:45:53 PM
I've been shooting rocks but I like to hear the ring instead of a thud or just seeing a puff of dust.  Some times I shoot out in Davenport in the family's wheat fields and rocks can be tough to find at times out there
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 01, 2018, 07:11:50 AM
I'm a rock guy too but mainly due to the fact that packing steel back and forth on public land sucks.  When I do though I use T posts with t post hangers and ar500 plates from Matt at Dynamic metals.  Nice products at a fair price and he's a local just up the road from me.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 01, 2018, 09:12:45 AM
I've been shooting rocks but I like to hear the ring instead of a thud or just seeing a puff of dust.  Some times I shoot out in Davenport in the family's wheat fields and rocks can be tough to find at times out there
I canít hear anything with steel 2/3 mile away with earmuffs on. What am I doing wrong?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jay.sharkbait on April 01, 2018, 09:28:48 AM
I've been shooting rocks but I like to hear the ring instead of a thud or just seeing a puff of dust.  Some times I shoot out in Davenport in the family's wheat fields and rocks can be tough to find at times out there
I canít hear anything with steel 2/3 mile away with earmuffs on. What am I doing wrong?


Are you shooting a Creedmoor?

I know you can hear 300WM  at a mile when conditions are right. Target size, composition and how its supported makes a difference as well.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 01, 2018, 09:46:05 AM
300 grainers.  10Ē ar500 gong
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jay.sharkbait on April 01, 2018, 09:54:22 AM
Here is the mile target. Its similar to  E40 and hung with chain.

You can definitely hear it at a mile
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on April 01, 2018, 10:11:41 AM

I canít hear anything with steel 2/3 mile away with earmuffs on. What am I doing wrong?

It has a lot to do with how the steel hangs. I can hear my the 168gr bullets from my 284 Striker hit at 1400 yards with an impact velocity of about 1100fps as long as the wind isn't too bad. I've used the T post hangers and they don't ring quite as well. A 300gr bullet at 1200 yards should ring steel loud enough to hear with plugs and muffs no matter how it's hanging.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 01, 2018, 10:12:10 AM
Are you using regular ear muffs ?  Maybe my 10" gong is too small to hear ( definitely too small for a mile ! )  Have a 20" square will try next time out. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on April 01, 2018, 10:16:34 AM
I wear just plugs when shooting the small guns like the 284 and plugs + muffs on the big guns.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 01, 2018, 10:26:33 AM
How the target is hung makes a huge difference! Gotta have vibration to get good sound.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 01, 2018, 10:38:49 AM
This one hung with rebar sings loud! The 735 hung with chain is pretty good too. Strap not so much
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on April 02, 2018, 07:56:54 PM
That square gong has seen better days. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 02, 2018, 08:56:29 PM
That square gong has seen better days. :chuckle:
yeah that poor thing was my 400 yard plate when I was first learning. Spent some time at 500 before moving it to 735. Both sides look like that. I have to keep rotating it because it starts to get bowl shaped. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 04, 2018, 04:39:08 PM
What are you guys using for scope covers?  Currently using a bikini.  Have not found a flip open cap I like yet
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2018, 05:06:02 PM

This is what i got.Vortex Defender,will work on all scopes.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 05, 2018, 09:19:35 AM
Using Leupold thread-on flipups.  Work pretty well but lil magnets holding them closed fall out it appears. Lost some on a couple. Need to callem and glue in better
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on April 08, 2018, 05:33:00 PM
I just asked this on another thread but since the two are the same subject i want to ask the shooters that know on here also.

I have an aluminum bedded Bell and Carlson tactical stock,.300 rum.What would you consider to be the min. torque for the action screws.I say max is around 60 in pounds.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 08, 2018, 05:52:24 PM
55-60. My chassis is listed at 65 in/lbs
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on April 08, 2018, 05:57:06 PM
Have you ever went lower to see if grouping got tighter?I'm at 40 now from 60 and groups are 1/4 in smaller consistently at 200. thanks
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 08, 2018, 06:52:44 PM
I have not played with torque.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on April 08, 2018, 07:13:33 PM
Ok,Thanks jasnt.  :tup:

I am just under 1 moa as is,would like to get to 1/2.I will go down to 30 from the 40 i am at and see if it gets even better or worse from there I'll stop there if worse i will go back up to the 40.. Thanks.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 08, 2018, 07:35:09 PM
Ok,Thanks jasnt.  :tup:

I am just under 1 moa as is,would like to get to 1/2.I will go down to 30 from the 40 i am at and see if it gets even better or worse from there I'll stop there if worse i will go back up to the 40.. Thanks.
how much have you played with seating depth? I've never loaded for a rifle that I had to work to get half moa. But I have had to jump over .1 to get half moa. I always start with seating depth loaded to min charge. .030" intervals then find ocw then fine tune seating depth. This has been the best proses for me
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on April 08, 2018, 07:52:17 PM
I haven't started to work up a load yet,I'm running the ammo that came with the rifle I bought from a member on here.210 grain Nosler trophy grade long range.

6 one way half a dozen the other,I want to get the rifle straight first as good as it gets then i will work up the ammo from there.

So far from him to me

Dropped the weight on the trigger from 6.5 pounds down to 1.5 pounds.(checked with dead blow hammer to make sure doesn't fire).

Added Witt machine brake.

Added Harris pivoting bipod.

Cleared the barrel channel in the stock for full clearance floating.

Lowered the torque on the action screws.

These small things so far has tightened the grouping nicely so far.I will try the set up again tomorrow if all is good then i will work up a load starting with about a .010 jump to lands.Thanks again.End of thread jack unless you all think this is a part of long range shooting you are interested in.   :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 08, 2018, 08:12:28 PM
If you plan to shoot long range with it its no thread jack.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on April 08, 2018, 08:46:52 PM
I do.  :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: wooltie on April 09, 2018, 10:10:58 AM
The action torque spec idea is interesting.  I have a model 70 (new production) seated in a B&C medalist.  The specs say 65 ft/lbs, but I run it 50-60.  That seems to be tight enough where it doesn't feel over tight, but also doesn't come loose.

I haven't bedded the recoil lug yet.  Might do that once I figure out this reloading thing.  I started reloading at .020" off the lands, but I think these accubonds prefer a larger jump, as much as .100".  fWIW, changing seating depth over charged improved my groups, but still not where I want them, so I'm going to try 165g instead.

Finding the velocity flat spots makes sense to me for LR shooting.


Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 09, 2018, 10:26:13 AM
I do.  :tup:
you will need to tell us a little about the rifle 🍻
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on April 09, 2018, 10:41:26 AM
Have you ever went lower to see if grouping got tighter?I'm at 40 now from 60 and groups are 1/4 in smaller consistently at 200. thanks

This sounds like the bedding is bad on the stock. When you torque it down to spec the action is getting "twisted" in the bedding block causing inconsistent contact. Lowering the torque is reducing the amount of uneven contact. Every B&C stock I've had needed to be bed for best results. The only type of bedding block that I don't bed with Devcon is a true V block.

I will throw out there that if it's a 3 screw single shot action you may benefit from playing with the torque on the center action screw.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 09, 2018, 07:42:10 PM
Have you ever went lower to see if grouping got tighter?I'm at 40 now from 60 and groups are 1/4 in smaller consistently at 200. thanks

This sounds like the bedding is bad on the stock. When you torque it down to spec the action is getting "twisted" in the bedding block causing inconsistent contact. Lowering the torque is reducing the amount of uneven contact. Every B&C stock I've had needed to be bed for best results. The only type of bedding block that I don't bed with Devcon is a true V block.

I will throw out there that if it's a 3 screw single shot action you may benefit from playing with the torque on the center action screw.
this is more inline with torque testing I've heard of
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on April 09, 2018, 08:40:15 PM
The action torque spec idea is interesting.  I have a model 70 (new production) seated in a B&C medalist.  The specs say 65 ft/lbs, but I run it 50-60.  That seems to be tight enough where it doesn't feel over tight, but also doesn't come loose.

I haven't bedded the recoil lug yet.  Might do that once I figure out this reloading thing.  I started reloading at .020" off the lands, but I think these accubonds prefer a larger jump, as much as .100".  fWIW, changing seating depth over charged improved my groups, but still not where I want them, so I'm going to try 165g instead.

Finding the velocity flat spots makes sense to me for LR shooting.

Iíve only loaded .30 and .257 accubonds. In my experience the Nosler data for COAL length is fine. I couldnít get them to zip though. Gave up and went back to Bergers.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 14, 2018, 06:57:08 AM
I would like to shoot some long range compitions. What's out there in eastern wa? 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on April 14, 2018, 11:32:05 AM
I would as well,If we cant find some we can make some,Lt Murray can be one meet On the east side.Maybe get a roster started.Have to set times around the closure times.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 14, 2018, 02:15:37 PM
I would as well,If we cant find some we can make some,Lt Murray can be one meet On the east side.Maybe get a roster started.Have to set times around the closure times.

that would be fun
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on April 14, 2018, 03:06:39 PM
The easiest way would be to put together a club and get affiliated with a group like Washington state rifle and pistol association.   
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 20, 2018, 12:22:35 PM
Well I may start shooting f-class next month.  Contacted Spokane rifle club,  going to a practice next week to see what's it's all about.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 22, 2018, 06:50:23 PM
Well I may start shooting f-class next month.  Contacted Spokane rifle club,  going to a practice next week to see what's it's all about.
Let us know how it goes !  :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on May 08, 2018, 06:25:42 PM
Picked up a phone scope. Went with nova grade. Itís heavy but I like it. Nice that it will work on any spotter. Got off my cold bore shot and reviewed video. Noticed it was shaky. Then checked my cheap tripod......broken.  Least I hit my cold bore today. 735 yards.  243. Target was far back tan square.

Any recommendations on tripods
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on May 09, 2018, 12:40:04 PM
I use a Manfrotto Befree. 
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/969739-REG/manfrotto_mkbfra4_bh_befree_compact_travel_photo.html?ap=y&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsaTs2Mj42gIVl_hkCh1Skw6GEAQYASABEgKCEfD_BwE

It holds my 20-60x65mm Swarovski well and itís still portable enough to throw in a pack. If size, weight and price arenít a big concern Iíd get something bigger just for a little extra stability.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on May 09, 2018, 02:13:55 PM
Thanks Iíll check that out
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: N7XW on May 09, 2018, 02:42:14 PM
I have the Manfrotto 055 and love it.  May be a little too heavy for backpacking though.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1034143-REG/manfrotto_mk055xpro3_3w_mt055xpro3_3w_aluminum_tripod_with.html
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on May 09, 2018, 02:57:10 PM
Outdoorsmans if your looking for tripod recommendations.
I think the medium is on sale for 10% off.

I have a s4 gear phone adaptor that works well. Itís pretty cool and sometimes aggravating to watch your own shots on video.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on May 09, 2018, 05:30:59 PM
My only gripe with using an actual phone to take the video through a spotter is that you have to actually get up to look at the phone. I use a GoPro that connects to my phone through Bluetooth so that I can watch the video without ever moving. If I'm shooting past about 800 yards with a heavy recoiling gun I can usually fire the shot and watch the impact on my phone easier than I can spot the impacts in the scope.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: N7XW on May 09, 2018, 06:38:33 PM
My only gripe with using an actual phone to take the video through a spotter is that you have to actually get up to look at the phone. I use a GoPro that connects to my phone through Bluetooth so that I can watch the video without ever moving. If I'm shooting past about 800 yards with a heavy recoiling gun I can usually fire the shot and watch the impact on my phone easier than I can spot the impacts in the scope.
Which Gopro Yorke?  I'm interested in that setup.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on May 09, 2018, 08:46:45 PM
Mine is a Hero 4 Silver. I got it a few years ago and they've come out with a couple newer models since then. The good news is that you can get the Hero 4 model for some great prices now.

https://www.adorama.com/us%20%20%20%20979049.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrITd3pv62gIVDsZkCh0ZCAfgEAQYBSABEgJmT_D_BwE

I can film in 4K but only at 15 fps, some of the newer models will actually film 4K at 30 or even 60 fps. I typically have it set on 1080p at 60 fps and the quality looks great. I'd probably look for a good deal on one of the older models unless you really want to film at a high frame rate or in 4K.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: N7XW on May 09, 2018, 11:14:44 PM
The camera has bluetooth built in?  What kind of range can you get from the camera to the phone?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on May 12, 2018, 11:11:06 AM
I remembered this old article in a field and stream took a while to find it in the net but i think its a good short read for the members trying to figure out problems they may be having getting it on target.


https://www.fieldandstream.com/pages/hot-barrels-and-bad-shooting
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on May 12, 2018, 11:24:25 AM
Another

https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2014/05/keeping-your-rifle-barrel-cool
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on May 12, 2018, 11:27:32 AM
This lil $35 barrel fan cuts cool down time in half.  If you have a temp gage ( kestrel, phone, thermometer). Just check air temp coming out of barrel til reaches desired temp and shoot.

http://barrelcool.com/product/barrelcool/ (http://barrelcool.com/product/barrelcool/)
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on May 12, 2018, 11:30:37 AM
I never seen that cool little piece thanks for sharing that.  :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on May 12, 2018, 06:46:23 PM
The camera has bluetooth built in?  What kind of range can you get from the camera to the phone?

Yes, Bluetooth and WiFi so you can control the camera and view the video from your phone. I can get about 20' away before it drops the Bluetooth connection. I've connected a laptop or Ipad to it as well so my spotter could watch on a larger screen while we recorded. It's a pretty neat setup.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: N7XW on May 12, 2018, 08:00:49 PM
The camera has bluetooth built in?  What kind of range can you get from the camera to the phone?

Yes, Bluetooth and WiFi so you can control the camera and view the video from your phone. I can get about 20' away before it drops the Bluetooth connection. I've connected a laptop or Ipad to it as well so my spotter could watch on a larger screen while we recorded. It's a pretty neat setup.
Sounds great.  Thanks for the info.   :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on May 12, 2018, 08:15:25 PM
I may have to pick one of those up. But barrel is next on my list
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on May 12, 2018, 08:21:02 PM
I may have to pick one of those up. But barrel is next on my list

They're a great deal right now since you can find the Hero4 so cheap. I paid $399 for mine but I still feel like it was well worth it.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: h20hunter on May 12, 2018, 08:25:44 PM
The housings are pretty durable. I've attached mine to a hone built housing and used it to video salmon strikes. I've sent it down in the crab pot. Lately, I got it to close to the steel recording impacts. Camera is fine.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on May 12, 2018, 09:27:00 PM
Just picked up a hero 5 black for like $229 at Costco - hope this is the right one !  Thx Yorke !
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on May 13, 2018, 09:14:57 AM
Just picked up a hero 5 black for like $229 at Costco - hope this is the right one !  Thx Yorke !

That should work great!

If you have a spare tripod you can mount the camera on a tripod behind the spotter and it works alright. I tried that for a while and it worked but it's not nearly as easy as using the right PhoneSkope adapter on the spotter.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: hunter399 on May 17, 2018, 06:57:19 PM
I got a question , when you free float a barrel, from the barrel nut,or from the receiver on ,free .free float to the front recoil lug.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on May 17, 2018, 07:08:11 PM
I got a question , when you free float a barrel, from the barrel nut,or from the receiver on ,free .free float to the front recoil lug.
i free float my entire barrel. Knut and all. Some like the chamber supported
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on May 17, 2018, 07:46:51 PM
TIP: Your seating depth ogive measurement tool will wear and throw off your measurements. Mine changed .007 in two weeks.  Your next lot of bullets may be off length or ogive location. Write down oal and ogive each load.  If you find a great load save a reference round. Its no fun to find a great that you dont know how to duplicate. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: hunter399 on May 17, 2018, 07:47:31 PM
I got a question , when you free float a barrel, from the barrel nut,or from the receiver on ,free .free float to the front recoil lug.
i free float my entire barrel. Knut and all. Some like the chamber supported
Thanks for reply
And info :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 03, 2018, 07:58:56 AM
Anybody plan on attending any of these matches?   Next one is June 10-11th in kettle falls
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: aaronoto on June 04, 2018, 06:47:46 PM
Anybody plan on attending any of these matches?   Next one is June 10-11th in kettle falls

The Sniper's Hide Team Challenge was this last weekend, looks like that's a 2017 schedule.  There's a Tactical Supply match in Naches this weekend though.

https://www.tacticalsupply.com/events/class.html?classid=23
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 15, 2018, 10:42:10 AM
Going to be some heavy winds this weekend. Plan to shoot some practice. 20-30 mph should be humbling.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Bill W on June 16, 2018, 09:06:34 AM
Going to be some heavy winds this weekend. Plan to shoot some practice. 20-30 mph should be humbling.

wind is where the beginners are separated from the experienced shooters.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 16, 2018, 12:26:23 PM
Not too bad this morning. 7-13 mph.  First round hit at 735 @10Ē plate
2 nd round hit at 400 yards on the 3Ē plate. Now to load up my lot and get back out there
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 17, 2018, 11:01:17 AM
Blowing good today. Just about ready to shoot. Learned my lady does actually listen to me when Iím babbling about shooting/guns.  And all in the same lot
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 17, 2018, 02:04:47 PM
New lot shoots same as old
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on June 17, 2018, 09:58:55 PM
What do you have this plugged into?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 18, 2018, 05:01:12 AM
What do you have this plugged into?
magneto speed v3
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on June 18, 2018, 07:09:48 AM
 :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 26, 2018, 04:58:47 PM
An article about 22 trainers I ran across


https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Consider%20the%20lowly%20Rimfire.pdf?token=AWywnvdDInLnVQRHa1bOk-HVZmK16QSg3cR4QP7LHIbmXBlQHEJD0j7J2JPc7zbhjVP_wEJB4K_y0LSHQqFxl_RrXZyclx39POu-zUxZCG7YdNWh5NGt7ev_YTmwly-pxOfKLFZU_tfOgIi-wGL01VHj
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Emptyhanded on June 26, 2018, 05:52:39 PM
I just started shooting longer range (400-800 yards) a few weeks ago and have a question for anyone who can help. I had an moa dial put on a vari-x II for my .243 win. I load 95 nosler btips to 3030 FPS and have my dope figured out to the plates at my bosses range which are at 300, 400, 570, and 760. My question is, with my dope figured out to these ranges, is there a way to figure out my dope in 50 yard increments with out setting targets up every 50 past 300? Iím guessing with the data I have I could put it in some sort of calculator and figure it out? Might be a dumb question and Iíd love to keep shooting to figure it out but setting targets at every distance isnít quite feasible. Thanks for any help you can give!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: h20hunter on June 26, 2018, 06:04:11 PM
Great question.  Tag!
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 26, 2018, 06:21:51 PM
I just started shooting longer range (400-800 yards) a few weeks ago and have a question for anyone who can help. I had an moa dial put on a vari-x II for my .243 win. I load 95 nosler btips to 3030 FPS and have my dope figured out to the plates at my bosses range which are at 300, 400, 570, and 760. My question is, with my dope figured out to these ranges, is there a way to figure out my dope in 50 yard increments with out setting targets up every 50 past 300? Iím guessing with the data I have I could put it in some sort of calculator and figure it out? Might be a dumb question and Iíd love to keep shooting to figure it out but setting targets at every distance isnít quite feasible. Thanks for any help you can give!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
what are you zeroed at? What altitude? Did you shoot over a chrono to get that speed?sight height?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 26, 2018, 06:24:15 PM
I just started shooting longer range (400-800 yards) a few weeks ago and have a question for anyone who can help. I had an moa dial put on a vari-x II for my .243 win. I load 95 nosler btips to 3030 FPS and have my dope figured out to the plates at my bosses range which are at 300, 400, 570, and 760. My question is, with my dope figured out to these ranges, is there a way to figure out my dope in 50 yard increments with out setting targets up every 50 past 300? Iím guessing with the data I have I could put it in some sort of calculator and figure it out? Might be a dumb question and Iíd love to keep shooting to figure it out but setting targets at every distance isnít quite feasible. Thanks for any help you can give!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

you can use any ballistic program and adjust muzzle velocity and bullet coefficent to get drops to match your measured actual.  Then just print out resulting chart for other distances.

https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/ (https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/)
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Emptyhanded on June 26, 2018, 06:25:08 PM
200 yard zero, about 2400 ft, and 3026 on the magneto speed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on June 26, 2018, 06:30:24 PM
You can do it but it is said to be much more accurate if you go out to the 800 yards but only need to do it at 100 yard increments.Reason is to confirm the BC of the bullet.You need to know how much more spin drift will come in also.(a perfect no wind day will tell a person a lot  :twocents:)Question for the op:Do you know exactly where your round is crossing the trajectory line again?If you do how close is it to your dope?Confirm by shooting 100 yard at zero and 400 yard at zero.if drop matches dope you're good if not then you're BC at wherever they came up with it is not real world.  :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Emptyhanded on June 26, 2018, 06:39:24 PM
You can do it but it is said to be much more accurate if you go out to the 800 yards but only need to do it at 100 yard increments.Reason is to confirm the BC of the bullet.You need to know how much more spin drift will come in also.(a perfect no wind day will tell a person a lot  :twocents:)Question for the op:Do you know exactly where your round is crossing the trajectory line again?If you do how close is it to your dope?Confirm by shooting 100 yard at zero and 400 yard at zero.if drop matches dope you're good if not then you're BC at wherever they came up with it is not real world.  :tup:
I canít say that I do. Dialing 4 MOA at 400 has me center of the plate. So if I hold dead on at 400 and hit roughly 16 inches low, BC should be correct? Am I understanding you correctly?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on June 26, 2018, 06:40:51 PM
yes you are correct.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on June 26, 2018, 06:42:07 PM
shooting on a really good day like no wind and not to hot how much does it drift from 100 yards to 400 yards?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Emptyhanded on June 26, 2018, 06:45:17 PM
I canít say that I have noticed, or paid attention to it. Sorry, Iím very new to this whole deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on June 26, 2018, 06:51:50 PM
As was stated earlier by the other member here,The right app will tell all if you put the best info you get in it.@1000 i would guess 9-9.5 inches of spin drift. with the numbers you gave.  :tup:

Meaning if you shoot out to 1000 right now moving up you're dial with what you already have and over 9 inches you will hit plate on a no wind 70 deg. day.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 26, 2018, 07:24:37 PM
I canít say that I have noticed, or paid attention to it. Sorry, Iím very new to this whole deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Start playing with a ballistic calculator like this https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/ (https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/) and you will get a better handle on it. 

Like enter a 10 mile an hour wind from the right to see how much to adjust then a 10 mile an hour wind from the left - wth its twice as much for a left wind vs right ????  hehe
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Emptyhanded on June 26, 2018, 07:59:55 PM
Gotcha! Thanks for the replies! I will play around with it and try to duplicate my numbers


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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on June 26, 2018, 08:18:57 PM
that hornady app is good for figuring how flat your load is gonna be  :twocents: but if you want to shoot long range you will be money ahead with a real app. Especially if your wanting to take that 450 yard elk. Applied Ballistics makes an app you can put on your smart phone and have with you at all times and wont take min. to get the info you need.


http://appliedballisticsllc.com/products/apps/ab-mobile-app/

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 28, 2018, 06:08:11 PM
What are you folks thoughts on the night force shv. I need a new long range scope and looking seriously at night force
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 28, 2018, 06:25:04 PM
Shv is only NF I would consider due to weight. Itss only 1/4 lb more than a Leupold and 1/2lb more than Z5 swaro.

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 28, 2018, 06:33:22 PM
Shv is only NF I would consider due to weight. Itss only 1/4 lb more than a Leupold and 1/2lb more than Z5 swaro.


weight isnít an issue for me When it comes to scopes. My current hunting rifle is 17 lbs. I have a strong back and a weak mind

Iím sure just about any options in my price range ($1500) will be better than my viper pst
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on June 28, 2018, 06:52:26 PM
If you like ffp and mils take a look at the Leupold mark5 you should be able to find a 3-18 in your budget if you watch for sales or specials
At least closeto your budget
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 28, 2018, 07:12:08 PM
Iím fine with sfp.  I rarely ever hold for elevation and if Iím shooting past 500 Iím typically at max power. I should give some specs if Iím taking recommendations:
No leupolds (say what you will but I hate them! Along with nosler and Barnes! Bad words in my book!)
Sfp
20ish power on the top end, 25 max but over 16
Moa
I like having hash marks for wind as long as accurate at max power
Exposed elevation turret and donít really care about zero stop
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 28, 2018, 07:22:15 PM
Based on your specs Id consider used full size NF moa. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on June 28, 2018, 09:12:17 PM
I'm not impressed by the SHV. I've used 3 of them and they were all disappointing in the optical clarity department. The edge distortion was really bad, chromatic aberration (color fringing) was enough to be annoying, the adjustments were soft and the reticle was very thick.

I'd almost take a Vortex PST II over the SHV, but I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. :chuckle: If weight isn't a big concern then you may be better off tracking down a used NXS. If money isn't a big concern, try and find a used ATACR. Deals are out there if you look for them. I paid $1200 for my NXS and $1700 for my ATACR.

I don't have much first hand experience with the newer Burris scopes but I do know a few guys who're really happy with them.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on June 28, 2018, 09:26:35 PM
curious what happened with the PST.jasnt Can you give us the details?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 28, 2018, 10:04:18 PM
I'm not impressed by the SHV. I've used 3 of them and they were all disappointing in the optical clarity department. The edge distortion was really bad, chromatic aberration (color fringing) was enough to be annoying, the adjustments were soft and the reticle was very thick.

I'd almost take a Vortex PST II over the SHV, but I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. :chuckle: If weight isn't a big concern then you may be better off tracking down a used NXS. If money isn't a big concern, try and find a used ATACR. Deals are out there if you look for them. I paid $1200 for my NXS and $1700 for my ATACR.

I don't have much first hand experience with the newer Burris scopes but I do know a few guys who're really happy with them.
just got done doing setup and load development on my baby brothers new 300WM.  He topped it with the 25x Burris Verasity.  It was a very nice optic for the price.  Clicks were audible and crisp.  Option to run small capable turrets or larger tactical turrets.  Reticle was clean and simple.  Not a FFP lover but I didn't hate it.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 29, 2018, 01:22:51 AM
curious what happened with the PST.jasnt Can you give us the details?
nothing. It goes on my 243.  Need a new scope for the 338/375.  Had a viper hs on that action but that scope is no good for long range.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on June 29, 2018, 01:31:02 AM
gotcha.reason i asked is i just ordered (last week) a viper PST gen (2) 5-25x50.This for the .300 wm l/r from a member on here.It should be good for long range right?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on June 29, 2018, 01:38:04 AM
gotcha.reason i asked is i just ordered (last week) a viper PST gen (2) 5-25x50.This for the .300 wm l/r from a member on here.It should be good for long range right?
yes sir. I love my pst! Reason I need a new one is I sold my extra pst to a friend thatís just getting in to long range. Now I regret it but itís nice to see him learning to shoot. I may go pst again if I donít find what I like.  Vortex dosent have the best reputation but Iíve only used the warranty on one scope and it was because I fell on my rifle on ice and bent the tube on the old crossfire II.

My new personal goal is 1 mile and the viper glass is not great at that range especially if mirage is heavy.  Half mile is not bad. Plus Iíll need about 15 more moa than I have and I donít have room in the tube to go 35 moa base
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 08, 2018, 04:06:39 PM
I did a tall target test today with the 243. Shooting past 800 I notice I hit higher than my ballistic cal gave. I kept playing with inputs trying to figure out whatís up. Not getting the results I wanted I decided to test my scopes click value with a tall target test at exactly 100 yards( verified by tape measure and sig 2000) started the test with my magneto speed on checking my level

Then took the v3 off and shot a 5 shot group which was low and left. I left it alone and dialed 20 min and shot 2,dialed down to zero shot one, then back to 20,then back to zero, back to 20 till I had 7 shots at 20 min and 9 at zero. Dialing 20 should have put me 20.94Ē high. Group was 22.25Ē high.  Doing the math I figured out my scopes click value is .278 mos or 1.112Ē per min. 
Now my actual dope lines up with ballistic app out to 1250 which is as far as Iíve confirmed hits
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 08, 2018, 04:26:16 PM
Nice.   :tup:    Been wanting to do a box test on mine to check it also - planning on up 25, over 6, down 25, back over 6 and loop three times shooting at the corners and see if my corners still line up and what it measures as these are typical clicks at 1000.   
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 08, 2018, 04:31:58 PM
Nice.   :tup:    Been wanting to do a box test on mine to check it also - planning on up 25, over 6, down 25, back over 6 and loop three times shooting at the corners and see if my corners still line up and what it measures as these are typical clicks at 1000.   
i have done the box test just never measured the spread. This scope tracks very true but as I learned it is not true 1/4 moa
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 08, 2018, 04:39:52 PM
How are you adjusting for the difference ?  Apply correction factor in App so it prints out "corrected moa" ?  ie when it says 25 moa it means 25 moa on your turret ?   
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 08, 2018, 04:40:18 PM
For those interested in the math
Range x min dialed x constant which is .01047 = how high you should hit using moa and yards
Then Divide that by actual hit highs which gives you the percent difference
ie .9411 was my answer so 6%
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 08, 2018, 04:45:43 PM
How are you adjusting for the difference ?  Apply correction factor in App so it prints out "corrected moa" ?  ie when it says 25 moa it means 25 moa on your turret ?   
yes my app uses a click value. I punch in .278 moa and it gives me dope for my scope not one that has true .25 moa. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: CaNINE on July 08, 2018, 04:55:02 PM
What are you folks thoughts on the night force shv. I need a new long range scope and looking seriously at night force

I have two SHV's.  The 4-14 with MOA 1000 reticle that I picked up from Bob Beck at a great show price.  I purchased the scope to replace a Vortex Viper PST that had click value issues and has been retired for load development use only.  Last winter I added a SHV 5-20 MOAR reticle with the exposed elevation turret to sit on top of my 300WSM.  I'll be buying another just like it for my 6.5CM target rifle.  I have two NXS scopes and the optical quality between the SHV and NXS is very close.  I like the illuminated reticle adjustment on the SHV over the NXS.  I do not own, but have looked through the ATACR - this takes things to a whole other level entirely but I haven't convinced myself to part with that much money for an optic.  Maybe I need to do more shooting so I can justify it.   :chuckle:

If you have specific questions send me a PM. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 08, 2018, 07:32:57 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=12Wf0Cuwwi8
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on July 08, 2018, 09:42:17 PM
I did a tall target test today with the 243. Shooting past 800 I notice I hit higher than my ballistic cal gave. I kept playing with inputs trying to figure out whatís up. Not getting the results I wanted I decided to test my scopes click value with a tall target test at exactly 100 yards( verified by tape measure and sig 2000) started the test with my magneto speed on checking my level

Then took the v3 off and shot a 5 shot group which was low and left. I left it alone and dialed 20 min and shot 2,dialed down to zero shot one, then back to 20,then back to zero, back to 20 till I had 7 shots at 20 min and 9 at zero. Dialing 20 should have put me 20.94Ē high. Group was 22.25Ē high.  Doing the math I figured out my scopes click value is .278 mos or 1.112Ē per min. 
Now my actual dope lines up with ballistic app out to 1250 which is as far as Iíve confirmed hits
Great post jasnt,Question/What is the distance between lines?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 09, 2018, 02:32:23 AM
I did a tall target test today with the 243. Shooting past 800 I notice I hit higher than my ballistic cal gave. I kept playing with inputs trying to figure out whatís up. Not getting the results I wanted I decided to test my scopes click value with a tall target test at exactly 100 yards( verified by tape measure and sig 2000) started the test with my magneto speed on checking my level

Then took the v3 off and shot a 5 shot group which was low and left. I left it alone and dialed 20 min and shot 2,dialed down to zero shot one, then back to 20,then back to zero, back to 20 till I had 7 shots at 20 min and 9 at zero. Dialing 20 should have put me 20.94Ē high. Group was 22.25Ē high.  Doing the math I figured out my scopes click value is .278 mos or 1.112Ē per min. 
Now my actual dope lines up with ballistic app out to 1250 which is as far as Iíve confirmed hits
Great post jasnt,Question/What is the distance between lines?
1Ē.  It was just for a reference when measuring. Horizontal lines are not necessary
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on July 09, 2018, 02:37:40 AM
gotcha,  :tup:  yeah i think i understand how you did it i will try this with a few of my rifles and see if i can get them as close as you set yours up.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 09, 2018, 05:25:55 AM
gotcha,  :tup:  yeah i think i understand how you did it i will try this with a few of my rifles and see if i can get them as close as you set yours up.
did you watch the video I posted?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 09, 2018, 05:55:53 AM
I watched it, his turrets were off by 1/10 of an inch at 93 yards - definitely a test I need to do.   :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 09, 2018, 06:27:04 AM
I tested the tracking on one of my scopes a month or so ago. Did a similar test but I dialed back and forth between zero and 15 moa each shot. I had no measurable correction on that scope.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on July 09, 2018, 01:36:34 PM
gotcha,  :tup:  yeah i think i understand how you did it i will try this with a few of my rifles and see if i can get them as close as you set yours up.
did you watch the video I posted?
Dis not see it before,Just watched it.Really good video thanks.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on July 09, 2018, 02:51:58 PM
I always say I'm going to do tracking tests but never actually do it. I just assume that when I miss, it's because I suck. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 09, 2018, 03:05:49 PM
I always say I'm going to do tracking tests but never actually do it. I just assume that when I miss, it's because I suck. :chuckle:

Just because my scope tracks well doesnít mean I canít miss or that I donít suck.  :hello:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 22, 2018, 06:10:09 PM
Been doing load development for a friends bergara hmr in 300wm
I like the gun. Not super impressed with the trigger but I do like the stock. Barrel has a bit more free bore than Iíd like to see in a repeater but not horrible.  Shooting 210gr h-vldís , cci 250ís and re 22
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Alchase on July 24, 2018, 10:35:58 AM
Off the Oklahoma Shooters site

Mike Wilson, set a new 1000yd IBS World record. His score was 50 with 5x's, and measured 1.068 inchs at 1000yds.!!! :o

Caliber was a 6BRAW...
It was shot in North Carolina at Hawk's Ridge gun club...
Here is Wilson's equipment list:

Brux barrel-8 twist-28Ē
ST 1000 Stock
BAT B 1.550 Melonite action
Jewell trigger
Nightforce 12-42 Benchrest NP-2 DD
Lapua brass
H 4895 powder
CCI 450 primers
Matthews Long Range Supplies
Vapor Trail bullets
Stock work by Larry ďBulletĒ Archer
Chamber-6BRAW with .135 fb and .272 nk

1/10moa group (five bullets in a target smaller than a golf ball)  at 1000yards  :yike:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: N7XW on July 24, 2018, 10:45:05 AM
Off the Oklahoma Shooters site

Mike Wilson, set a new 1000yd IBS World record. His score was 50 with 5x's, and measured 1.068 inchs at 1000yds.!!! :o

Caliber was a 6BRAW...
It was shot in North Carolina at Hawk's Ridge gun club...
Here is Wilson's equipment list:

Brux barrel-8 twist-28Ē
ST 1000 Stock
BAT B 1.550 Melonite action
Jewell trigger
Nightforce 12-42 Benchrest NP-2 DD
Lapua brass
H 4895 powder
CCI 450 primers
Matthews Long Range Supplies
Vapor Trail bullets
Stock work by Larry ďBulletĒ Archer
Chamber-6BRAW with .135 fb and .272 nk

1/10moa group (five bullets in a target smaller than a golf ball)  at 1000yards  :yike:

Just heard about that.  Crazy accurate.  Must not have been any wind at all that day.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 24, 2018, 12:13:01 PM
Or very steady wind.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 24, 2018, 12:47:33 PM
Amazing ! Ive heard said records like that require luck of errors offsetting each other more than unicorn precision. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on July 24, 2018, 01:06:19 PM
Tagging to get all the info i can!
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Eric M on July 24, 2018, 01:39:31 PM
That's some shooting at 1000 yards!
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 25, 2018, 08:32:58 PM
Tested my new viper today and it tracks perfectly up to 30 moa so far I think itís safe to say it tracks.  Now I wanna test all my scopes
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 25, 2018, 08:40:12 PM
I gotta get settled on a final load so I can back to shooting. Dang 1/2 moa not good enough gotta go for 1/3 moa.  Silly accuracy addiction !
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 25, 2018, 08:51:37 PM
I gotta get settled on a final load so I can back to shooting. Dang 1/2 moa not good enough gotta go for 1/3 moa.  Silly accuracy addiction !
i know how that goes but today I did the test with out shooting a round.  Set up my Weatherby on the bench secured on my bench rest.  Took my story pole out to my 100 yard target. Setup so my cross hairs where dead on the 4í mark, dialed 30 min and Iím dead on 1í4.5Ē.  Dialed back to zero and back to 4í dialed 30 again and right back to 1í 4.5Ē   
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 28, 2018, 02:24:24 PM
I recently started using applied ballistics on my phone. Purchased the cdc for my bullet and today went out to verify dope.   Worked very well on elevation out to 1515 yards with second round hit. First miss was wind call.  Verified drops at 980, 1028, 1380, and 1515 with first round hits at 1028 and 1380.  Pretty excited about the repeatable sub sonic results 4/5 shots at 1515yards.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 29, 2018, 08:16:31 PM
I was hoping to get a solid 1Ē load at 300 yards before moving out to a 1000 yards but Im going to live with 1.5Ēíand see if it holds up at 1000 yards.  These 300 grainers give a pretty good pop so I  may be only a .5 moa shooter with em anyway.  I had the the ABM app so bought the custom drop info for $2 after seeing jasnts post (thk u) so will see how that compares to the sig rangefinder computer that uses the same author.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 29, 2018, 08:53:39 PM
Nice shooting.  I purchased the cdc for the 250gr bergers Iíll be shooting as well
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: hogslayer on July 29, 2018, 10:19:46 PM
I was hoping to get a solid 1Ē load at 300 yards before moving out to a 1000 yards but Im going to live with 1.5Ēíand see if it holds up at 1000 yards.  These 300 grainers give a pretty good pop so I  may be only a .5 moa shooter with em anyway.  I had the the ABM app so bought the custom drop info for $2 after seeing jasnts post (thk u) so will see how that compares to the sig rangefinder computer that uses the same author.

You shooting the 300 grain EH or OTM?  Have you tried jamming them?  Mine shoot best between 5 in and 3 off.  OTM would be 15 jam. And yes you can still eject a live round without losing bullet. I run .0025 neck tension.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 29, 2018, 11:50:20 PM
Shooting the Smk.  I suspect I can do better with the eh close to the lands. Just leery of the big bergers not expanding.   Im am going to try em at a 1000 tho and see how they shoot.   I will try em at 300 from 5 jam to 5 jump and see how it looks.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 31, 2018, 10:28:18 AM
Some of you may enjoy this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=538&v=LBHKemV0pOE
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 31, 2018, 12:21:10 PM
Cool. I Really like dialing vs their reticle hold. Surprised their first shots were off by 50 ft plus. But thats a long ways!
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 31, 2018, 02:11:27 PM
Cool. I Really like dialing vs their reticle hold. Surprised their first shots were off by 50 ft plus. But thats a long ways!
i agree Iíd rather dial as well tho most of the time I hold for wind
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 31, 2018, 06:59:52 PM
Has any one used these before? Thoughts?

https://www.longrangearms.com/collections/frontpage/products/sendit
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 31, 2018, 07:13:46 PM
Vxhd has led level light built in.
Not sure value out of scope. I can see my level with left eye while on scope.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 31, 2018, 07:26:17 PM
I like my cheap wheeler level just because I can see it very well. I picked up a lone star arm level for my Weatherby build and itís much harder to see. Donít think Iím going to like it :dunno:  prob fine off the bench but in the field.....  Was recommended to these but they are spendy.  I donít need digital but I do like the accuracy tolerances. Hoping some one has bit the bullet already and can give me their thoughts
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 31, 2018, 07:29:52 PM
Doesnít seem to do anything any better than a regular bubble.  :dunno:

I just look at the bubble and center it up
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: CaNINE on July 31, 2018, 07:43:59 PM
One of the best sources of information I've found.  Read every word and watch every video from Sam....then do it again.  I'm a better reloader, rifleman and hunter because of what I've learned over the years from Sam.

http://panhandleprecision.com/

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 31, 2018, 07:55:20 PM
I like Sam too. Iíve watched all his videos
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on July 31, 2018, 09:34:07 PM
Doesnít seem to do anything any better than a regular bubble.  :dunno:

I just look at the bubble and center it up
Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting Chapter 8: Leveling Your Sights shows how 3 degrees cant with .243 can induce horizontal error of 16.2" @ 1000yds (0.4" vertical); 41.0" (only -1.1" vertical) @ 1500yds. Human eye only discerns about 3 degrees under best conditions....before introducing optical illusions of tilted visual references, Cant gets misinterpreted as horizontal wind error and one ends up chasing their tail.  Many levels are not much more accurate Iím learning

higher temperatures and pressure will compromise the bubble size causing level inaccuracies. Typically air bubble levels require 3į to 5į to even register movement;
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 31, 2018, 11:12:11 PM
Wow - was hoping I was within a degree with bubble.  I better stick my phone on there and see what its digital scale reads vs bubble.  16Ē is about right.   Tangent of degree cant times holdover = shift ( maybe times 2?)
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 01, 2018, 06:15:28 AM
I've seen some guys putting in consistent work at 1000 yards with a bubble  :dunno:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 01, 2018, 06:45:50 AM
I use a level everyday at work. Bubble works fine till itís cold or hot! I have no troubles with my bubbles till above 85 or below 40.  Itís no different than my work levels. Iím thinking Iíll go with ceramic ball from accuracy first, at least it will be the same size at all temps
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 01, 2018, 09:24:28 PM
I was hoping to get a solid 1Ē load at 300 yards before moving out to a 1000 yards but Im going to live with 1.5Ēíand see if it holds up at 1000 yards.  These 300 grainers give a pretty good pop so I  may be only a .5 moa shooter with em anyway.  I had the the ABM app so bought the custom drop info for $2 after seeing jasnts post (thk u) so will see how that compares to the sig rangefinder computer that uses the same author.

You shooting the 300 grain EH or OTM?  Have you tried jamming them?  Mine shoot best between 5 in and 3 off.  OTM would be 15 jam. And yes you can still eject a live round without losing bullet. I run .0025 neck tension.

.338 Edge. 300gr OTM jammed .015 @ 300 yards.

Front.

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k269/landonmoses/photo_zps1a2e9b8d.jpg) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/landonmoses/media/photo_zps1a2e9b8d.jpg.html)

Rear.

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k269/landonmoses/photo2_zps4cd5ff3f.jpg) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/landonmoses/media/photo2_zps4cd5ff3f.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 01, 2018, 09:35:10 PM
Nice.  Gonna jam some elites 2moro .  Should ladder for powder and seating but gonna just try a couple loads and see if I get lucky.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 02, 2018, 10:17:44 AM
Nice shooting BH.  What action you running and what speed is your load?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 02, 2018, 10:53:30 AM
Tested my bubble level with a digital.  1 degree puts bubble well over lines.  I'm pretty sure I'm holding within 1/2 degree of verticle with this standard wheeler bubble level.  That still could move me 4" at 1000 yards. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 02, 2018, 12:14:27 PM
Tested my bubble level with a digital.  1 degree puts bubble well over lines.  I'm pretty sure I'm holding within 1/2 degree of verticle with this standard wheeler bubble level.  That still could move me 4" at 1000 yards. 
how did you test it? And at what temp?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: coop2424 on August 02, 2018, 01:20:18 PM
Tested my bubble level with a digital.  1 degree puts bubble well over lines.  I'm pretty sure I'm holding within 1/2 degree of verticle with this standard wheeler bubble level.  That still could move me 4" at 1000 yards.

I tested mine yesterday with same results.  I would say when I am shooting I am under 1/2 degree from what I showed .   Did it in house at 70 degrees then after that I sat it out in 93 degrees for over 2 hours and it was the same result.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on August 02, 2018, 01:27:26 PM
Typically air bubble levels require 3į to 5į to even register movement;

I think that might be more realistically 0.3į to 0.5į to register movement. I can detect smaller movements than that with most of the bubbles in my shop (including some cheap carpenters levels), as well as what's on my rifles.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 02, 2018, 01:48:26 PM
If using a bubble to level up the rifle when shooting was insufficient then it would also be insufficient when mounting I suppose.  Which would give us 6-10* tolerance and I'm just not buying that  :dunno:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 02, 2018, 02:23:00 PM
Typically air bubble levels require 3į to 5į to even register movement;

I think that might be more realistically 0.3į to 0.5į to register movement. I can detect smaller movements than that with most of the bubbles in my shop (including some cheap carpenters levels), as well as what's on my rifles.
thats a quote from accuracy firsts website.
First part was a quote from applied ballistics for long range shooting chapter 8 if I remember correctly.

This is why I brought up the anti cant device in the first place.  After reading that I started looking close at all my levels.  Iíve had levels from work (stabila) that over 90 air temp but working in the direct sun and the bubble is larger than the gap between the lines.  Makes it tough to level block. At 20f the bubbles in my torpedo level are tiny and hard to center. I donít believe any of these anti cant levels are higher quality than the stabila or crick levels I use.  I shoot in all kinds of extreme weather and want something a little more consistent from zero to 100f.  If your happy with your anti cant great. 

Obviously Iím not alone with other options showing up on the market.
Hard to have total confidence in your gear when youíve had the experiences Iíve had with levels. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 02, 2018, 02:25:53 PM
Measured at 70 degrees temp.  Used iphone.  First used shooting angle in hornady app and it was adequate to show .5 degrees was realistic accuracy. Confirmed with air measure app.

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on August 02, 2018, 03:39:14 PM
Typically air bubble levels require 3į to 5į to even register movement;

I think that might be more realistically 0.3į to 0.5į to register movement. I can detect smaller movements than that with most of the bubbles in my shop (including some cheap carpenters levels), as well as what's on my rifles.
thats a quote from accuracy firsts website.
First part was a quote from applied ballistics for long range shooting chapter 8 if I remember correctly.

This is why I brought up the anti cant device in the first place.  After reading that I started looking close at all my levels.  Iíve had levels from work (stabila) that over 90 air temp but working in the direct sun and the bubble is larger than the gap between the lines.  Makes it tough to level block. At 20f the bubbles in my torpedo level are tiny and hard to center. I donít believe any of these anti cant levels are higher quality than the stabila or crick levels I use.  I shoot in all kinds of extreme weather and want something a little more consistent from zero to 100f.  If your happy with your anti cant great. 

Obviously Iím not alone with other options showing up on the market.
Hard to have total confidence in your gear when youíve had the experiences Iíve had with levels.

If that is a direct quote, I'd bet it was misinterpreted somewhere down the line (not necessarily by you) or was a typo. If they really meant that most bubble levels are only accurate to within 3* from true level, sure, maybe I could believe that. Or if they meant that was maximum error across a wide range of temperatures, sure, maybe.

But as a claim that you can't tell a difference of 3* change in angle with a bubble level? That's pretty easy to disprove for anyone who understands how to use a bubble level. It's just not a reasonable claim to make.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 02, 2018, 06:12:59 PM
Typically air bubble levels require 3į to 5į to even register movement;

I think that might be more realistically 0.3į to 0.5į to register movement. I can detect smaller movements than that with most of the bubbles in my shop (including some cheap carpenters levels), as well as what's on my rifles.
thats a quote from accuracy firsts website.
First part was a quote from applied ballistics for long range shooting chapter 8 if I remember correctly.

This is why I brought up the anti cant device in the first place.  After reading that I started looking close at all my levels.  Iíve had levels from work (stabila) that over 90 air temp but working in the direct sun and the bubble is larger than the gap between the lines.  Makes it tough to level block. At 20f the bubbles in my torpedo level are tiny and hard to center. I donít believe any of these anti cant levels are higher quality than the stabila or crick levels I use.  I shoot in all kinds of extreme weather and want something a little more consistent from zero to 100f.  If your happy with your anti cant great. 

Obviously Iím not alone with other options showing up on the market.
Hard to have total confidence in your gear when youíve had the experiences Iíve had with levels.

If that is a direct quote, I'd bet it was misinterpreted somewhere down the line (not necessarily by you) or was a typo. If they really meant that most bubble levels are only accurate to within 3* from true level, sure, maybe I could believe that. Or if they meant that was maximum error across a wide range of temperatures, sure, maybe.

But as a claim that you can't tell a difference of 3* change in angle with a bubble level? That's pretty easy to disprove for anyone who understands how to use a bubble level. It's just not a reasonable claim to make.
direct quote

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 02, 2018, 06:18:07 PM
That looks like a sales pitch to me. Anyone selling things is always going to downtalk the competition.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 02, 2018, 06:23:43 PM
That looks like a sales pitch to me. Anyone selling things is always going to downtalk the competition.
:yeah:  from the pitch sounds inferior.  Bubble registers movement to .2 or better.  1 degree would be poor.   .1 like my iphone would be nice.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: CAMPMEAT on August 02, 2018, 06:26:52 PM
I've got a new never used, crappy box, Kestrel 5700 Applied Balisitics, Weather Meter for $575 shipped. Serious only. PayPal family. I'll send pictures if serious.



NO TRADES.........
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 02, 2018, 06:32:05 PM
That looks like a sales pitch to me. Anyone selling things is always going to downtalk the competition.
:yeah:  from the pitch sounds inferior.  Bubble registers movement to .2 or better.  1 degree would be poor.   .1 like my iphone would be nice.
.1 would be nice. Maybe Iíll do some testing with my iPhone and anti cant levels.   Not sure how I missed that in your earlier posts.   
I dout I can read wind well enough for it to make much difference.  But when I miss Iíd like to feel confident in the fact that it was my mistake and not just a disability of my gear.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 02, 2018, 07:19:04 PM
Well testing my levels my lone star is .3-.5 and the Wheeler is a little worse .5-.7 area. I feel a bit better.  The wheeler while having a v notch the bubble is smaller than the lines at 67f in the house.  Took a fine sharpie and fixed that.   I feel better.  Thank you all for your input.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on August 02, 2018, 07:21:07 PM
Yeah that's very much a sales pitch, and the claims are ridiculous.

Here is what a little less than 3* total looks like on this very short scope level. Longer levels give even better resolution.

(https://i.imgur.com/4lNvBBdh.jpg)


And here is less than 0.5 degrees. Anyone competent enough to shoot a rifle at distance should be able to tell the difference (to be fair it's easier to see in person than in the pic).

(https://i.imgur.com/e3jDf2hh.jpg)
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 02, 2018, 07:45:23 PM
Nice shooting BH.  What action you running and what speed is your load?

Rem700 action, barreled action was spun up by Benchmark. 30Ē barrel. Had two done. One sits unfired without a trigger in a FDE AICS ďAceĒ stock. Been sitting in the safe for 5 or so years. I would have to look at the folder for the rifle for velocity, hard to keep track of it all.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 02, 2018, 08:22:36 PM
I've got a new never used, crappy box, Kestrel 5700 Applied Balisitics, Weather Meter for $575 shipped. Serious only. PayPal family. I'll send pictures if serious.



NO TRADES.........
probably get more traffic in the classifieds
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 02, 2018, 08:26:35 PM
Nice shooting BH.  What action you running and what speed is your load?

Rem700 action, barreled action was spun up by Benchmark. 30Ē barrel. Had two done. One sits unfired without a trigger in a FDE AICS ďAceĒ stock. Been sitting in the safe for 5 or so years. I would have to look at the folder for the rifle for velocity, hard to keep track of it all.
  :drool:
So many guns so little time.  One day I hope to have those troubles.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on August 02, 2018, 08:29:16 PM
I've got an Accuracy First level that was on my ATACR when I got it. It's nice, but I just ignore it. I probably have the worst shooting technique ever; I'm amazed that I ever hit anything. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 02, 2018, 08:51:29 PM
This is a great DVD 5 disc set from A-Z when it comes to the long game. Magpul are just the guests. The key is the instructor and long range shooting expert (Todd Hodnett). A man very well in the ďKNOWĒ of long range precision shooting and I mean LOOOOOOOONG!

Trains the worlds best. When it comes to Militaryís , Agencyís and no such agencyís. At the very end you will enjoy his barrel cleaning techniques from a high volume accurate, distance shooter.   

I have several sets of this DVD. I wouldnít mind. Sending it to someone that would like to watch it and they could send it to the next person.

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k269/landonmoses/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_7724_zpslyw048bt.jpg) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/landonmoses/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_7724_zpslyw048bt.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 02, 2018, 09:32:40 PM
Love the random black sheep in a foothold 😂
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 02, 2018, 09:34:00 PM
Love the random black sheep in a foothold 😂
At least itís not the pink fuzzy hand cuffs this time!  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on August 02, 2018, 10:10:18 PM
I'd be very interested in watching that DVD set. Sounds like good stuff!
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: CAMPMEAT on August 02, 2018, 11:00:19 PM
I've got a new never used, crappy box, Kestrel 5700 Applied Balisitics, Weather Meter for $575 shipped. Serious only. PayPal family. I'll send pictures if serious.



NO TRADES.........
probably get more traffic in the classifieds





I know. I just put it in here since this is what the Kestrel is for...
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Biggerhammer on August 02, 2018, 11:02:35 PM
I've got a new never used, crappy box, Kestrel 5700 Applied Balisitics, Weather Meter for $575 shipped. Serious only. PayPal family. I'll send pictures if serious.



NO TRADES.........
probably get more traffic in the classifieds





I know. I just put it in here since this is what the Kestrel is for...

Your good to go....
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 03, 2018, 08:16:29 PM
😎
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 19, 2018, 03:51:41 PM
Been watching these page. thought some of you might like
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k3q_pfiF4X8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2hh42VNxFkg
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 23, 2018, 12:22:41 PM
Did a bit of shooting last night with the chrono. V3 raises my poi a bit at 400 yards I guess.  Took the fun right out of it
I hung this plate with 1/2Ē rebar with long counter balance off the back to limit the swing.
Not a valid vimeo URLdescription
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on August 23, 2018, 08:49:38 PM
Did a bit of shooting last night with the chrono. V3 raises my poi a bit at 400 yards I guess.  Took the fun right out of it
I hung this plate with 1/2Ē rebar with long counter balance off the back to limit the swing.
Not a valid vimeo URLdescription

I'm not allowed to shoot with one guy because I always aim for the hangers on his gongs. He switched to a T-post style hanger, so I started shooting the T-posts. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 23, 2018, 08:52:45 PM
Yea you get all set up at a 1000 then first shot this happens.

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on August 23, 2018, 09:51:26 PM
 :bash: that sucks
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on August 24, 2018, 05:20:38 AM
I fixed it last night and finally took out a different color spray paint.  Last time I painted them I got all the way out to the targets and realized I grabbed tan instead of grey.  Made it hard to see the targets when the grass died out
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on September 15, 2018, 01:48:18 PM

Great video for beginners.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on September 16, 2018, 07:26:11 AM
With the right twist he would have been making those hits at 1470
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on September 16, 2018, 10:41:55 AM
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on September 16, 2018, 12:46:53 PM
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on September 16, 2018, 04:41:44 PM
Other than load development I donít shoot groups.  My main concern is first round hits or as few as possible.  I like to use targets that are 1 moa or as close to that as I can.

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 16, 2018, 05:10:59 PM
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.
:yeah:
Like the saying that the bullets need to ďgo to sleepĒ or ďsettle inĒ
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on September 16, 2018, 07:21:54 PM
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.
:yeah:
Like the saying that the bullets need to ďgo to sleepĒ or ďsettle inĒ
Do you shoot long range competition?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 16, 2018, 07:24:51 PM
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.
:yeah:
Like the saying that the bullets need to ďgo to sleepĒ or ďsettle inĒ
Do you shoot long range competition?
Ive done a couple small unofficial club matches but nothing major or consistent. Just like to shoot and too much competing would cut into my tag fund
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on September 16, 2018, 07:37:40 PM
I actually agree with you on that.Everything done in a group cost more,but its healthy.  :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on September 16, 2018, 08:30:16 PM

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.

The scatter plot group! If you fire a load of buckshot at a target, you could pick out 3 pellets that from a great group. That's the same as firing 10 groups and deciding that the best one fired is the true capability of the rifle.

I've know a lot of guys who would get one really good 3 shot group and then proclaim their gun to be a .25 MOA rifle. Next trip out they'd get a .75 MOA group and blame the optic, bullets, neck tension, firing pin protrusion, the deforestation of the Amazon and anything else they could think of. The reality is that their gun was a .5 MOA gun that had one good group and one bad group. Shoot 20 shots at the same target over the course of a couple outings and you learn a lot about a gun's true capabilities.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on September 16, 2018, 08:39:38 PM
 :yeah:  :tup: Spot on.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on September 16, 2018, 08:47:09 PM
The buckshot group is a great analogy.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jaymark6655 on September 17, 2018, 07:56:36 AM
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.

His book talks about projectiles can be launched unstable or marginal stability with pitching an yawing until the velocity slows enough to allow the aerodynamic overturning to be damped out by the rotational rigidity. He does make the claim that these pitching a yaws only cause slight movements relative to bullet diameter, but I think it could be more so it shouldn't be able to be measured on paper. I know .50BMGs are really bad about this and it has been photographed. Any lateral velocity should move the projectile further from its flight path as the time of flight increases (increased range); at least in theory so pretty safe bet on his part, but I have been told that the USMC has done extensive testing and proved that group size can decrease with increased range on some weapons. I hope to see that data someday.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on September 17, 2018, 10:06:47 AM
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.

His book talks about projectiles can be launched unstable or marginal stability with pitching an yawing until the velocity slows enough to allow the aerodynamic overturning to be damped out by the rotational rigidity. He does make the claim that these pitching a yaws only cause slight movements relative to bullet diameter, but I think it could be more so it shouldn't be able to be measured on paper. I know .50BMGs are really bad about this and it has been photographed. Any lateral velocity should move the projectile further from its flight path as the time of flight increases (increased range); at least in theory so pretty safe bet on his part, but I have been told that the USMC has done extensive testing and proved that group size can decrease with increased range on some weapons. I hope to see that data someday.
:yeah:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on September 17, 2018, 10:14:11 AM

His book talks about projectiles can be launched unstable or marginal stability with pitching an yawing until the velocity slows enough to allow the aerodynamic overturning to be damped out by the rotational rigidity.

Yes, but some people misinterpret that to support the myth about a tighter moa spread at long range; it doesn't.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on September 17, 2018, 10:36:58 AM
 :yeah: THE STABALIZING OF THE BULLET CANNOT POSSIBLY TIGHTEN A GROUP AT LONGER DISTANCES.That i agree with the grouping is tightest at the muzzle.

I'm not explaining something right which happens all the time, sorry.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on September 17, 2018, 10:42:51 AM
A consistent load fired consistently from a rifle at a consistent range can consistently stabilize a round and more consistently strike the target in a more consistent pattern forming a more consistent group giving the given rifle a more consistently tighter group at a given range. whether longer range or shorter range depends on a few factors.  :tup:

 :yeah: mostly due to keyholing.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on September 20, 2018, 07:20:17 PM
Oh mah your in box is full
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on September 20, 2018, 07:27:36 PM
buying too much stuff on here lol. all cleared up.  :bdid:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on October 24, 2018, 12:27:12 PM
Figured out a spot on the property that I can shoot to half mile the other day making my 735 yard plate now 878 yards. I have to shoot from the sitting pos with bipod extended all the way out(Harris 25c) and use my rear bag on my leg.  Was able to put my first 3 rounds on steel.  Have another spot I can set up for 1115 yards but would have to put the target on the timber land south of my place and Iím sure it would get stolen.  Figured out another spot to get out to a mile but same senerio.    Any tips for theft proof targets? Would be nice not having to leave home to practice
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on October 27, 2018, 07:11:15 PM
Did a little shooting today at 1580 and 1740. Conditions were good for shooting but poor for spotting hits. Solo shooting can be tough. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on October 27, 2018, 08:28:03 PM
That's a good looking spot!

Do you have a spotting scope?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 27, 2018, 08:45:47 PM
I always use phone scope video on spotter. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on October 27, 2018, 08:51:34 PM
Yes and I did use it. Had the phone scope on with slow mo like I normally do but mirage was bad today. Maybe morning would be better for that spot
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on October 28, 2018, 05:32:36 AM
Maybe you guys could spot the hit.
Not a valid vimeo URLRed arrow is target rock, flight time is 3.1 sec
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Oh Mah on December 07, 2018, 07:47:49 PM
just bringing this back around,couldn't find it now i have don't want to lose it again.  :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 08, 2018, 08:42:11 PM
Learned something today I thought Iíd share.  Decided to shim and bed my rail.  Have 20 moa but wanted it 35 moa.    20 moa is 1/3 of 1 degree.  With 6Ē rail thatís .035Ē shim. Doing the math backwards .0029Ē per inch of rail is 10 moa.   With the .024Ē shim I made should give me around 14 moa gain.  Going to test it before I bed it and will report back. FWIW my rail is 6.375Ē long. 

This should give me close to 70 moa of dial with 100 yards zero
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 08, 2018, 09:09:46 PM
I'm thinking your on track.

15 moa = .25 degrees

Tan .25 = X / 6.375

X = .028

But furthest forward edge of shim will be less than 6.375 - mite even be close to screw hole so adjust calculations to actual ?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 09, 2018, 09:09:26 AM
I'm thinking your on track.

15 moa = .25 degrees

Tan .25 = X / 6.375

X = .028

But furthest forward edge of shim will be less than 6.375 - mite even be close to screw hole so adjust calculations to actual ?
i figured that and went with the proper tapered shim 😎
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 09, 2018, 09:54:00 AM
What is your shim made of?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 09, 2018, 02:57:15 PM
Aluminum just like the rail
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 09, 2018, 04:20:06 PM
Beer can shim tapered with a carpenters hammer ?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 09, 2018, 04:32:49 PM
3 layers of .008Ē flashing hand filed till correct size on each end.  Plan to bed it to the rail
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 09, 2018, 04:42:49 PM
Beer can shim tapered with a carpenters hammer ?

That's some precision work  :tup:  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 09, 2018, 05:30:47 PM
I would lean more toward the Burris signature rings over shimming a rail  :twocents:
Even though I despise anything Burris or Steiner.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 09, 2018, 06:58:18 PM
Nah if the shim doesnít work out Iíll stick with the 20 till I can afford the Warner or Ivey adjustable base.  ELR season is over anyway.  Pointless to shoot when you canít spot your splashes
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on December 10, 2018, 02:26:00 PM
I've shimmed a couple bases with aluminum muffler tape with good results, then bed the rail to make sure everything is making solid contact. Of course I've also been known to just use muffler tape on the bottom of an action to fix bad bedding problems. :tup:

Nah if the shim doesnít work out Iíll stick with the 20 till I can afford the Warner or Ivey adjustable base.  ELR season is over anyway.  Pointless to shoot when you canít spot your splashes

No excuses! I went out yesterday to shoot at 1032 yards with the 284 and 338/375 pistols and it was 38 degrees and raining with sustained 30mph winds and gusts up around 40mph. I had to adjust my normal wind call from "hold a little left" to "hold all of the left". This was after using my truck as a wind break and tying my pop up canopy to the truck so it didn't blow away. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 10, 2018, 03:05:00 PM
Yea hold 14 feet to the left should be close !
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 10, 2018, 03:45:58 PM
Well the shim worked great. Got it rezeroed after plowing snow. Put the last 3 rounds in one hole. I now have enough dial for 1765-1790 depending on wind speed and direction. Time to bed the rail

I did do a little long range shooting yesterday with my sr9 shooting 147gr xtps at 1150 at 106.4 yards.  Kept most of the rounds on 4Ē rock till it busted to peaceís.   Fun day
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 11, 2018, 02:37:51 PM
Got the rail bedded   Maybe tomorrow I can shoot and get it zeroed again. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 12, 2018, 01:21:15 PM
Put 32 rounds through it today dialing up and down.  Held zero and returned to zero. zero shadowing in the scope.   Iím happy with the results
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on December 12, 2018, 04:28:38 PM
Put 32 rounds through it today dialing up and down.  Held zero and returned to zero. zero shadowing in the scope.   Iím happy with the results

I looked back in the thread a ways but think I missed it - what scope are you using?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 12, 2018, 04:50:07 PM
Put 32 rounds through it today dialing up and down.  Held zero and returned to zero. zero shadowing in the scope.   Iím happy with the results

I looked back in the thread a ways but think I missed it - what scope are you using?
viper pst gen 1
They advertise 60 moa total travel but mine has 69 min and with the slope I have now I have 63 min up plus 11 in hold off or plus 22 if I dial back to true halfway.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on December 12, 2018, 06:27:19 PM
 :brew:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 16, 2018, 08:10:53 AM
Thought some of you might enjoy this

https://forum.snipershide.com/attachments/hyper-stabilized-rifle-bullets-pdf.6876555/

https://forum.snipershide.com/attachments/hyper-stabilized-rifle-bullets-re-formatted-pdf.6879563/


https://forum.snipershide.com/attachments/rifle-bullet-stability-v-1-pdf.6934400/

https://forum.snipershide.com/attachments/rifle-bullet-stability-v-2-pdf.6935735/
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 16, 2018, 08:13:56 AM
Screen capture? Gotta login to see link
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 16, 2018, 08:15:43 AM
PDF files
Didnít realize you had to be logged in to see. Iíll see what google will find
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 16, 2018, 08:20:43 AM
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1841/6713/files/Hyper-Stabilized_Rifle_Bullets.pdf
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 16, 2018, 08:35:52 AM
Methinks summary is new monolithic bullets have great flight potential but you really need a new Higher twist barrel (6:1 in .338) to take full advantage of them.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 16, 2018, 08:54:39 AM
Running the numbers with a .338 flatline and 6.5 twist I get sg of 3.01 @3000fps
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 20, 2018, 11:54:42 AM
Little playing today
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: N7XW on December 20, 2018, 03:00:54 PM
0.2 @ 735 yds  :yike: WOW!  Nice shooting :tup:!
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 20, 2018, 03:34:46 PM
 :yike: wow ! dialed !
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 20, 2018, 03:53:36 PM
thank guys I was pretty excited.  735 yard plate is about toast now.  Bear are going to be in trouble in 2019 season I think. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: N7XW on December 20, 2018, 04:10:42 PM
thank guys I was pretty excited.  735 yard plate is about toast now.  Bear are going to be in trouble in 2019 season I think.
:tup: right on dude!!
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on December 20, 2018, 08:15:44 PM
That 338 is garbage. You should probably just sell it to me and buy a better one. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 21, 2018, 06:57:28 AM
That 338 is garbage. You should probably just sell it to me and buy a better one. :chuckle:

every time I shoot this thing I remember all the folks that scoffed at the idea of hand reaming the chamber, I just canít stop smiling.   
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 23, 2018, 05:55:28 PM
Found a spot today to shoot 1800yards
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Jason on December 23, 2018, 06:18:14 PM
Found a spot today to shoot 1800yards
And the results are?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 23, 2018, 06:54:44 PM
Found a spot today to shoot 1800yards
And the results are?
no shooting today.  Was out calling cats. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: bearpaw on December 23, 2018, 07:44:29 PM
It's been confusing to me deciding what scope to use on a particular .338 caliber rifle, do any of you have any experience with this scope?
https://www.longrangestore.com/Huskemaw_Optics_Tactical_Series_5_30x56_Scope_p/10530ho.htm

I'm wondering what you consider to be the pros and cons of this scope?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 23, 2018, 09:10:34 PM
Personally I have never looked threw one but Iíve never been a fan of ballistic compensation turrets.  Conditions just change too much. Under 600 yards itís prob not much but beyond that Iíll take moa or mil.  Jmo
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: bearpaw on December 24, 2018, 07:10:58 AM
Personally I have never looked threw one but Iíve never been a fan of ballistic compensation turrets.  Conditions just change too much. Under 600 yards itís prob not much but beyond that Iíll take moa or mil.  Jmo

I guess that's one way I get a little lost, I don't know the difference between turrets, what is the difference between "ballistic compensation turrets" and others? Do you mean because they are .33 instead of .25 per click?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 24, 2018, 07:29:35 AM
Personally I have never looked threw one but Iíve never been a fan of ballistic compensation turrets.  Conditions just change too much. Under 600 yards itís prob not much but beyond that Iíll take moa or mil.  Jmo

I guess that's one way I get a little lost, I don't know the difference between turrets, what is the difference between "ballistic compensation turrets" and others? Do you mean because they are .33 instead of .25 per click?
yardage marked turrets vs turrets marked in moa or mil. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: bearpaw on December 24, 2018, 07:31:59 AM
Personally I have never looked threw one but Iíve never been a fan of ballistic compensation turrets.  Conditions just change too much. Under 600 yards itís prob not much but beyond that Iíll take moa or mil.  Jmo

I guess that's one way I get a little lost, I don't know the difference between turrets, what is the difference between "ballistic compensation turrets" and others? Do you mean because they are .33 instead of .25 per click?
yardage marked turrets vs turrets marked in moa or mil.

Exactly the type of info I'm looking for, thanks! Does that make the scope harder to understand? Sorry for the basic questions!
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 24, 2018, 07:44:38 AM
Technically makes it easier since you just range and then dial to that yardage.  No ballistic app or calculation required.  As jasnt eluded to though, that yardage turret is built off of one set of conditions so wont be as accurate as imputing atmospheric conditions for each shot.  That said, I've shot as well as watched Coach shoot his huskemaw topped 6.5 past a grand incredibly accurately.

With some of the whiz bang calculators out there like the sig 2400 or g7, they make moa or mil turrets just as fast as a yardage turret. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 24, 2018, 08:04:27 AM
Personally I have never looked threw one but Iíve never been a fan of ballistic compensation turrets.  Conditions just change too much. Under 600 yards itís prob not much but beyond that Iíll take moa or mil.  Jmo

I guess that's one way I get a little lost, I don't know the difference between turrets, what is the difference between "ballistic compensation turrets" and others? Do you mean because they are .33 instead of .25 per click?
the ballistic comp turrets are marked in yardage and not mil or moa.  Not all the huskemaw scopes are ballistic turrets. You have to Order the right turrets for your load and altitude.     That link you posted said it comes with the ballistic comp turrets. 
Like I said I have not used one but I have read a lot of reviews on them.   Iíve read they have decent glass and tracking but Iíve also read you can do better for the price. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 24, 2018, 08:15:54 AM
You can order custom yardage turrets with moa markings on them also. 

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 24, 2018, 08:44:17 AM
You can order custom yardage turrets with moa markings on them also.

You need to charge your phone sir!  :chuckle:

Iíve tried the yardage turrets on a couple rifles over the years and always come back to the moa dials. I just prefer it.

I have witnessed Coachcw make some crazy shots with his yardage dial in his 6.5 284 but am convinced he has magic when that gun is in his hands. A well oiled machine (except his knees) and ice water in his vanes.

The huskemaws adjust in 1/3 moa clicks which is very close to .1 mil clicks so keep that in mind if you go that way and are used to 1/4 moa clicks.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: yorketransport on December 25, 2018, 01:20:05 PM
It's been confusing to me deciding what scope to use on a particular .338 caliber rifle, do any of you have any experience with this scope?
https://www.longrangestore.com/Huskemaw_Optics_Tactical_Series_5_30x56_Scope_p/10530ho.htm

I'm wondering what you consider to be the pros and cons of this scope?

The Huskemaw scopes are good optics, they're right there with the Sightron SIII line. The glass is as good as you'll ever need but they probably wouldn't survive the same abuse as something like a NF NXS.

For the turrets, I don't think you'd have any problems with them. Average out the conditions that you'll shoot in and just have them calibrated for those. The problem you might run into is the fact that you'll run into so many different conditions while you're out hunting since you're not exactly a "local" hunter. Like others said though, the click value is still the same .3 MOA regardless of how the turret is marked. If you're ever worried about your drops beyond 500 yards or so because of the different conditions, you can always just plug your info into a ballistic calculator and count clicks.

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: bearpaw on December 27, 2018, 03:09:02 PM
Thanks for all the comments, that's helping me understand better.  :tup:
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 27, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
Thanks for all the comments, that's helping me understand better.  :tup:
If you want I am willing to trade a crash course in scope turrets and adjustments for a guided hunt! Just let me know.  :chuckle:


This thread is a great place to ask questions. Keep them coming. Lots of good info
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 27, 2018, 06:49:19 PM
Thought this was pretty interesting.  Some say displacement is displacement and the short fat cases just canít be ďmore efficientĒ than long slender.  Ect.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93kVM22XHSo&t=305s
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on December 28, 2018, 04:27:50 PM
Thought this was pretty interesting.  Some say displacement is displacement and the short fat cases just canít be ďmore efficientĒ than long slender.  Ect.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93kVM22XHSo&t=305s

I think that guy in the video is misguided about this topic. Several things wrong with his comparison:

- He's using primers to judge pressure
- Different barrels
- Different chamber throats

He's using single samples of two different things to draw a conclusion that can't actually be supported with the information he presented.
Also, his analogy of the 2 lane vs 4 lane highway is silly; the "bottleneck" in that analogy is still the case neck, not the case body.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on December 28, 2018, 05:28:46 PM
A proper test would be to take the 6.5/06 barrel. Break it in. Do your test then cut enough off the back. Then chamber and thread so it has the exact same throat and length of rifling.


Like I said it was interesting
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on January 03, 2019, 10:55:13 AM
Good read on mirage
https://loadoutroom.com/12938/snipers-mirage-tip-week/?fbclid=IwAR0KKX1qHDEo1R4DcUd0pfYh0w8cbWlJbzrdei3YfXHmG2D4GYXJD-LKJz0
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 06, 2019, 10:28:46 AM
Found this today
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: buckfvr on March 06, 2019, 11:30:09 AM
Personally I have never looked threw one but Iíve never been a fan of ballistic compensation turrets.  Conditions just change too much. Under 600 yards itís prob not much but beyond that Iíll take moa or mil.  Jmo

I guess that's one way I get a little lost, I don't know the difference between turrets, what is the difference between "ballistic compensation turrets" and others? Do you mean because they are .33 instead of .25 per click?

BC turrets are so generic as to be too much of a compromise.  Kenton Ind. turrets would be a better option, but still a compromise from moa or mil turrets used correctly.  Once you properly zero your rifle and collect data, and then enter it into an app, if done right, you can really get some great results.  Along the way, it helps to have a Kestrel, a Magneto Speed,  quality ammo, quality range finder, etc., to help you get from collecting data for your program, and then feeding your current data where you plan to take a shot, into your app.  Takes a bit to get used to but nothing impractical for the average guy.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 06, 2019, 02:35:50 PM
Average 14mph wind at my position. So windy I only got one shot recorded before the tripod blew over. 12/16 on hits today at 735 yards.
Cold bore shot
Crummy video...I need a better tripod


Not a valid vimeo URL
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on March 06, 2019, 03:07:09 PM
Found this today

Where did it come from (who published it)? If accurate, it could be pretty handy. I see a couple on there that surprise me, like AA2460 (pretty low) and IMR 4895 (pretty high) compared to my own experiences.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Emptyhanded on March 06, 2019, 04:05:08 PM
Off topic, but in regards to geographic elevation as an input for calculations. I recently happened onto a new but older model kestrel 4000 and it seems the ďcalculatedĒ elevation that it gives is off from what my gps says the elevation is. Do you guys use the elevation from the kestrel? Is it a more accurate projection of the ďelevationĒ since it bases it off of pressure and what not? Maybe it doesnít matter that much but it had me wondering. Just trying to get a better grasp on the different elements involved in longer range shooting.


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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: buckfvr on March 06, 2019, 04:09:44 PM
Absolute pressure will vary even at the same spot, but it is for a fact pressure that is the correct data for (most) your app, not elevation.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 06, 2019, 05:11:27 PM
Found this today

Where did it come from (who published it)? If accurate, it could be pretty handy. I see a couple on there that surprise me, like AA2460 (pretty low) and IMR 4895 (pretty high) compared to my own experiences.
i found it over at longrange hunting forum. Not sure who published it

Off topic, but in regards to geographic elevation as an input for calculations. I recently happened onto a new but older model kestrel 4000 and it seems the ďcalculatedĒ elevation that it gives is off from what my gps says the elevation is. Do you guys use the elevation from the kestrel? Is it a more accurate projection of the ďelevationĒ since it bases it off of pressure and what not? Maybe it doesnít matter that much but it had me wondering. Just trying to get a better grasp on the different elements involved in longer range shooting.


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That is the correct preasure but when entering your inputs in to your app leave elevation at zero.  That will give you your best results.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Yondering on March 06, 2019, 05:32:11 PM
Off topic, but in regards to geographic elevation as an input for calculations. I recently happened onto a new but older model kestrel 4000 and it seems the ďcalculatedĒ elevation that it gives is off from what my gps says the elevation is. Do you guys use the elevation from the kestrel? Is it a more accurate projection of the ďelevationĒ since it bases it off of pressure and what not? Maybe it doesnít matter that much but it had me wondering. Just trying to get a better grasp on the different elements involved in longer range shooting.


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I don't use a Kestrel, so maybe this is a dumb question, but - are you mixing up density altitude with actual gps altitude? Density altitude is a really handy single number input for ballistic app solutions; it varies from actual altitude based on temperature and pressure (and to a tiny extent, humidity). For example, my house is at 365 ft above sea level, but density altitude here can vary anywhere from -2000 ft to +2500 ft throughout the year.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 06, 2019, 05:36:04 PM
On my kestrel if you change from corrected preasure to station(absolute) preasure the elevation changes with preasure changes.  Da is a total different way of measuring pressure altogether.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Emptyhanded on March 06, 2019, 09:08:57 PM
I believe the kestrel gives me altitude and density altitude as two different figures. Reading the directions, it sounds like their given altitude figure is calculated based on pressure and temperature etc. but I could be wrong. Like I said, this is all fairly new to me and am just trying to figure out the most accurate starting point for gathering data. I have been shooting out to 800 comparing my numbers to the calculator, but want to gain a better understanding of all the influencing factors.


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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 09, 2019, 04:48:24 PM
Having some fun with my 22lr today. 400 yards
Cci mini mag 36 gr hp
78 moa elevation 7-10 moa wind
Wind was 1-3 mph from 3-4 O clock

Trying to really keep an eye on mirage while shooting and adjusting my wind holds. The 22 is helping

Not a valid vimeo URL
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 19, 2019, 06:10:17 AM
Well we had fun but camera died before we got to a mile.  Got out to 1450 but could not spot impacts past that.  Conditions werenít great for spotting as we got out there a bit late and most the target rocks were in shadows.  Was soggy and wet.  Maybe in a few weeks we can head out again
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: aaronoto on March 19, 2019, 08:01:39 AM
I believe the kestrel gives me altitude and density altitude as two different figures. Reading the directions, it sounds like their given altitude figure is calculated based on pressure and temperature etc. but I could be wrong. Like I said, this is all fairly new to me and am just trying to figure out the most accurate starting point for gathering data. I have been shooting out to 800 comparing my numbers to the calculator, but want to gain a better understanding of all the influencing factors.


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On a Kestrel you can get both station/absolute pressure or barometric pressure (corrected for altitude).  I recommend using station/absolute pressure so you don't have to worry about whether your altitude is actually correct or not.

If you want the Kestrel to display station/absolute pressure just leave your reference altitude always set at 0 regardless of what elevation you are at.

On your ballistics calculator when you input environmentals, check the "pressure is absolute" box and enter no elevation, or uncheck the box that might say something to the affect of "pressure is corrected."
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Emptyhanded on March 19, 2019, 08:27:12 AM
I believe the kestrel gives me altitude and density altitude as two different figures. Reading the directions, it sounds like their given altitude figure is calculated based on pressure and temperature etc. but I could be wrong. Like I said, this is all fairly new to me and am just trying to figure out the most accurate starting point for gathering data. I have been shooting out to 800 comparing my numbers to the calculator, but want to gain a better understanding of all the influencing factors.


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On a Kestrel you can get both station/absolute pressure or barometric pressure (corrected for altitude).  I recommend using station/absolute pressure so you don't have to worry about whether your altitude is actually correct or not.

If you want the Kestrel to display station/absolute pressure just leave your reference altitude always set at 0 regardless of what elevation you are at.

On your ballistics calculator when you input environmentals, check the "pressure is absolute" box and enter no elevation, or uncheck the box that might say something to the affect of "pressure is corrected."
Perfect! Thatís exactly what I wanted to know. Thank you!


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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Special T on March 22, 2019, 04:32:31 AM

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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 22, 2019, 06:01:00 AM
That looks fun!! 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: TheArmoredShop on March 23, 2019, 02:29:11 PM
Couple small tips (Iíve got lots of big ones).

Make sure you have a muzzlebrake. For two reasons.  Becoming proficient at Long range shooting takes practice, and sore shoulders all the time from a brutal recoil gun sucks.  Additionally, the muzzle brake really allows you to stay on target after the shot and smooths out the process.

Also, after ensuring four times that the gun is unloaded, practice dry firing in the living room. Even for five minutes. Work on your shot routine, make it the same every time. Breath. Squeeze through the trigger. Kill the flinch (if you have one)

Practicing dry firing was absolutely essential in killing my bear last year. We were surprised on the pack out and everything was a little rushed. I was still able to go through my routine. Dial. Level. Breathe. Squeeze.  All sub consciously.

That equated to a dead bear at 511 yards.


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Suppressor is even better.


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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: TheArmoredShop on March 23, 2019, 02:34:35 PM
As a long range newbie, I have a question. 

At what range do you typically need to do all these calculations?  I'd like to get into long range hunting and I'm thinking my shots should be limited to 600 yards.  Do I need to go through atmospheric pressure and other calculations/compensation or is drop and wind compensation sufficient for deer hunting at 600 yards?


Nothing wrong with longer range shots on big game, but please be careful and know where youíre really sending the bullet. An ethical kill is the best kill. Nothing I hate to see more than an animal running around with half of its leg blown off.


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Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jaymark6655 on March 25, 2019, 09:47:23 AM
Depends on when and where you sight your rifle in. The place I hunt is the same altitude that I sight in my rifle, but during the summer its DA can be 3000 feet and in the winter the DA can be -1000 feet. At 600 yards that would be about a 1.5 inch difference in vertical impact and 1 inch difference in a 5 mph crosswind since the air is slowing the round down more during hunting season. Probably not worth worrying about at that range since a 1 mph error in your wind call or 5 yard ranging error will cause about the same deviation depending on rifle and cartridge used. Takeaway, zero your rifle as close as you can to that density altitude that you plan to hunt, but spend the most time practicing reading wind and getting an accurate range to target.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: outdooraddict on March 25, 2019, 01:48:40 PM
i have a question about "hold-over"  I'm not trying to go 500 yards, but I would like to feel confident at 350-400  I know that is not really "long range"  but I have a standard 3-9x40 vxII with standard reticle, so my question is.... lets say my chart says I drop 8 inches at 300 yrds.  and I know at the range that my target is an 8 inch circle,  when looking through the scope at 300 yrds, do I make a mental measurement on my reticle of 8 inches and then hold over that amount, or do I guess where an 8 inch hold over is.  I would rather not "guess" if there is an animal in front of me.  I want to be comfortable at 400 yrds for a shot, not that it even matters for this question but I know someone will say "drop depends on your caliber"  I shoot a 264 and tomorrow will get my velocity at the range and be able to compute a balitic chart.  last question is, for purpose of hunting eastern washignton, north Idaho, and potentially some Wyoming atelop, should I have a zero at 100 yrds, inch high, zero at 200 etc. or does that not matter as long as I know my zero when I put it in my ballistic calc
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Stein on March 25, 2019, 02:02:56 PM
i have a question about "hold-over"  I'm not trying to go 500 yards, but I would like to feel confident at 350-400  I know that is not really "long range"  but I have a standard 3-9x40 vxII with standard reticle, so my question is.... lets say my chart says I drop 8 inches at 300 yrds.  and I know at the range that my target is an 8 inch circle,  when looking through the scope at 300 yrds, do I make a mental measurement on my reticle of 8 inches and then hold over that amount, or do I guess where an 8 inch hold over is.  I would rather not "guess" if there is an animal in front of me.  I want to be comfortable at 400 yrds for a shot, not that it even matters for this question but I know someone will say "drop depends on your caliber"  I shoot a 264 and tomorrow will get my velocity at the range and be able to compute a balitic chart.  last question is, for purpose of hunting eastern washignton, north Idaho, and potentially some Wyoming atelop, should I have a zero at 100 yrds, inch high, zero at 200 etc. or does that not matter as long as I know my zero when I put it in my ballistic calc

I assume you are only holding over and not adjusting the scope.  In that case, if I wanted to shoot to 400 I would most likely zero at 200 and figure out what my dead hold range is.  For that, put your drop chart together and figure out how much you are willing to miss by.  I usually use +-3" for an elk sized animal.  Given that, your range for dead hold will be some range, maybe 120 - 300 yards (just making numbers up).  Find the yardages that are no more than +3" or no less than -3".   For any range inside of that, just hold where you want to hit and press the trigger and you will not miss more than 3" from where you aim.

For ranges outside of that, I would figure out more about your reticle.  Usually, they will tell you how many MOA it is from the thin line until the thick part and then you translate that to yardage.  Maybe at a 200 yard zero that is 350 yards.  That will give you at least an idea and then you can split the differences and get pretty close.  You know that the thin section between the horizontal cross hair to the thick part of the vertical is 150 yards.  If you are shooting at 275, you would go roughly half way (200 zero plus half way = 275).  It isn't perfect as drop is not linear, but you are getting in the ballpark. (It's hard to describe without a picture, but hopefully you can follow.  Basically, find out the MOA drops for as many points on the vertical cross hair as you can.  On a standard reticle, there are at least three usable ones: where they cross, the upper transition from thin to think and the lower transition from thin to thick).

You aren't going to win any competitions, but it is better than just guessing or trying to hold x" high.  You will need to either be really good at judging distances or having a rangefinder.

A final option is to get a scope with either a reticle that has marks or to one where you can adjust the elevation and hold on what you want to hit.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: outdooraddict on March 25, 2019, 02:10:25 PM
ok thanks stein, I am not looking to compete, I would like to get some steel and place it out to 3-400 yrds to just practice, I am more in confidence for hunting yardage that I possible will encounter.  where would I find the moa of my reticle?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 25, 2019, 02:16:19 PM
ok thanks stein, I am not looking to compete, I would like to get some steel and place it out to 3-400 yrds to just practice, I am more in confidence for hunting yardage that I possible will encounter.  where would I find the moa of my reticle?
which one does it have?
https://www.leupold.com/scopes/compact-scopes/vx-2-3-9x50mm?selectedSku=110804
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: outdooraddict on March 25, 2019, 02:16:24 PM
what if went this route.  zero at 200, and then shoot a group  at the 200 yard target but hold the center of the target at the vertical transition of skinny line to fat line. measure that distance and then see where that lands on my chart.  so say I am zero at 200 where the lines cross, I hold center target with my verticle line skinny/fat transition and I shoot 4 inches high (just making up numbers) and my dope chart says -4" at 425 yrds.  can I assume that the hold over at 425 yrds is the vertical fat/skinny line transition?
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on March 25, 2019, 02:17:46 PM
what if went this route.  zero at 200, and then shoot a group  at the 200 yard target but hold the center of the target at the vertical transition of skinny line to fat line. measure that distance and then see where that lands on my chart.  so say I am zero at 200 where the lines cross, I hold center target with my verticle line skinny/fat transition and I shoot 4 inches high (just making up numbers) and my dope chart says -4" at 425 yrds.  can I assume that the hold over at 425 yrds is the vertical fat/skinny line transition?
you will have to verify but yes thatís the idea
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: outdooraddict on March 25, 2019, 02:18:22 PM
duplex reticle
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: outdooraddict on March 25, 2019, 02:20:10 PM
thanks for the help jasnt, and stein. I don't know why I made this seem so difficult in my brain, once I typed it out and thought about it, it all started to make sense.  is it easier to 200 zero or 100 zero, or does it even truly matter
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Stein on March 25, 2019, 02:47:34 PM
thanks for the help jasnt, and stein. I don't know why I made this seem so difficult in my brain, once I typed it out and thought about it, it all started to make sense.  is it easier to 200 zero or 100 zero, or does it even truly matter

If you are looking at shooting out to 400, I would zero at 200 as you will most likely be taking a shot in that range and have less hold over.  If you are shooting 0-100 yards all the time, the 100 would make more sense.  For a 100 yard zero, the only difference is you will have to hold much higher for a 400 yard shot than if you were zeroed for 200. 

I would zero for 200 and know where I hit for 50,100, 150 and what the distance for the thick part of the reticle is.  That and some estimation (half, third) and you are about as good as you are going to get with a duplex reticle and no turret adjustment. 

I would also run the numbers off the drop chart to give me the +-3" band where I would just hold for the spot and shoot.  Outside of that band, I would estimate on how much to hold over.
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Crunchy on March 25, 2019, 02:56:18 PM
Depending on your rifle, if you zero at 100 I would bet your drop will be at least 20 inches.  No other way to determine this other than go out and launch some lead at distance to learn your holdover. 
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Alchase on March 25, 2019, 06:58:57 PM
This may help explain ranging with a duplex reticle
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on April 19, 2019, 04:56:05 PM
Well the shim worked great. Got it rezeroed after plowing snow. Put the last 3 rounds in one hole. I now have enough dial for 1765-1790 depending on wind speed and direction. Time to bed the rail

 
little update on this.  I remounted the scope again one notch closer for better eye relief and zero is dead bottom. Now have 68 min of dial.  Very glad I shimmed the rail
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on May 07, 2019, 10:11:20 AM
As promised....... months ago :chuckle:

Not a valid vimeo URL
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: Fidelk on May 14, 2019, 10:15:21 AM
Several years back we used to shoot at 500 yards (Lake Stevens?). I was shooting Winchester AccuBond loads (.300 WSM) so I got a Winchester Products Guide at a dealer's and read their chart. I zeroed at 200 yards......and the chart told me that the bullet would drop approx. 36 inches at 500 yards. The targets at 500 yards were 6 feet tall. Aim at the top of the wood frame and the bullets dropped into and around the center of the target.

More recently I bought a Remington 700 Long Range (.300 Win Mag) and it is zeroed for 300 yards (I anticipate shooting between 300-400 yards). For 300 yards, I would just hold where I want to hit......hold over a few inches for shots between 300-400. That's about as scientific as my knowledge allows me to get.

Also went from a Burris Fullfield II, 3-9x40 to a Burris Veracity 2-10x42 scope...Ö..and what a difference......just for hunting, not really for longer ranges. But perfect in that 300-400 yard envelope.

Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: jasnt on October 21, 2021, 06:00:57 AM
Bump
Title: Re: Long range for beginners
Post by: leonpeon2 on October 26, 2021, 08:59:17 PM
Any Washington long range classes?
I was hunting this year and I missed a shot that I should have made. I know I need to shoot more and will do that this coming year but thought that it might be helpful to learn more at the same time. I know thereís a few in Utah and Colorado but thatís far to go for a class.
 Iím on the wet side in bothell. But frequent shelton often.
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