Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: bod on March 20, 2018, 03:42:52 PM

Title: 209 Primers
Post by: bod on March 20, 2018, 03:42:52 PM
When is the date of the determination for legal use.
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: bobcat on March 20, 2018, 04:01:24 PM
I think it's already been determined, but the "date of intended adoption" is listed as April 12-14.
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Bob33 on March 20, 2018, 04:03:38 PM
The Commission votes on proposed changes at their next meeting scheduled for April 12-14 in Olympia.
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Goldeneye on April 16, 2018, 07:42:39 PM
The Commission votes on proposed changes at their next meeting scheduled for April 12-14 in Olympia.

How did the vote on this turn out?
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Bob33 on April 16, 2018, 07:43:50 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,226463.msg3012634.html#msg3012634 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,226463.msg3012634.html#msg3012634)
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: plugger on April 16, 2018, 07:59:26 PM
So they approved it. Does it still have to be exposed?
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Sabotloader on April 17, 2018, 09:03:41 AM
So they approved it. Does it still have to be exposed?

I do not have the exact ruleing in front of me - but in the previous version I read - the exposed ignition system was discarded...
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: bobcat on April 17, 2018, 09:08:25 AM
No, does not have to be exposed. I'm not sure there is a 209 ignition available that's exposed, so they pretty much had to remove that restriction if they were going to allow 209's. Now all the muzzleloaders at the Cabelas store are legal.
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on April 17, 2018, 09:20:49 AM
Congratz muzzy guys! 
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: WSU on April 17, 2018, 09:33:33 AM
What's the best 209 primer fired muzzy?
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Sabotloader on April 17, 2018, 09:55:57 AM
What's the best 209 primer fired muzzy?

This is just my thought... I use the Winchester W209.  If you are going to make the switch to 209's & BH-209 powder the correct primer will depend on the breech plug installed in your rifle.

Since BH requires a much higher ignition temp, you will see that Western Powders suggests a 'mag' type primer.  But again it really depends on the BP in you rifle.

Both Western and CVA offer an aftermarket BH209 breech plug

If you have a Knight the existing 209 BP's and a W209 will work great!

Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: WSU on April 17, 2018, 10:01:49 AM
I'd like the most reliable to fire.  I don't know if I'll switch powders or not.  With open sights, it seems like any additional performance in speed won't make that much difference to me.  Am I wrong?
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Sabotloader on April 17, 2018, 10:48:52 AM
I'd like the most reliable to fire.  I don't know if I'll switch powders or not.  With open sights, it seems like any additional performance in speed won't make that much difference to me.  Am I wrong?

You are really correct!  Which rifle do you use?
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: WSU on April 17, 2018, 12:23:14 PM
I used an Optima last year.  I had a cap not go off but am guessing I didn't get it seated well enough.  It was a heart breaker on a bull at 20 or so yards.  The sound of that tiny hammer hitting the firing pin sure was loud to the bull and me.  Luckily I got a different bull the next morning.

There are a hundful of other guns we use in our party as well.
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Sabotloader on April 17, 2018, 12:41:54 PM
I used an Optima last year.  I had a cap not go off but am guessing I didn't get it seated well enough.  It was a heart breaker on a bull at 20 or so yards.  The sound of that tiny hammer hitting the firing pin sure was loud to the bull and me.  Luckily I got a different bull the next morning.

There are a hundful of other guns we use in our party as well.

With the Optima you probably would want to get the Western Powders BH-209 breech plug if you were going to shoot BH. BH is really not a big advantage ballistically but it is a lot more convenient to shoot.  Saves a lot of hand work.



Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: WSU on April 17, 2018, 12:50:04 PM
If there is a more reliable setup I'm more than happy to spend the money to buy one.
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Sabotloader on April 17, 2018, 12:59:32 PM
If there is a more reliable setup I'm more than happy to spend the money to buy one.

For your CVA - I really believe the 209 primer system is far better than the percussion cap system.  Remember the CVA's are built as 209 rifles and then changes in the firing pin assembly are made to be able to shoot caps... For myself only - I question the strength of the firing pin spring that they use internally.  It works way more than it fails - but why is it when you need it to go off it sometimes might fail.

Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: MikeC on April 17, 2018, 01:22:20 PM
So just looking at the different option on the knight website I am seeing 3 different versions, are all of them legal? Bare 209 primer, full plastic jacket, and nitride 209?
Also wondering about the Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader? I'm keeping my Bighorn set up for #11 So I'm wanting to shop around for the best bang for the buck and also an upgrade from the Bighorn. Pretty sure I'll be drawing a quality tag  :chuckle:  :chuckle:
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: KB88 on April 17, 2018, 01:32:20 PM
I contacted cva for parts to convert my buckhorn and they gave me the short and sweet reply of NLA... thanks
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Sabotloader on April 17, 2018, 02:05:13 PM
So just looking at the different option on the knight website I am seeing 3 different versions, are all of them legal? Bare 209 primer, full plastic jacket, and nitride 209?
Also wondering about the Remington Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader? I'm keeping my Bighorn set up for #11 So I'm wanting to shop around for the best bang for the buck and also an upgrade from the Bighorn. Pretty sure I'll be drawing a quality tag  :chuckle:  :chuckle:

When you mention Nitrate 209 - you are talking about the whole rifle correct?

I really want the Green/Black model myself...

(https://s26.postimg.cc/xtyrgd6uh/Nitrate_Knights.jpg)

I would suggest the bare 209 primer model - using W209 primers...

I shim my breech plug to get a primer crush and seal the breech from any blow back. My primers come out just like NEW - well almost

(https://s26.postimg.cc/l0d808fy1/45_FT_primer_with_.015_shim.jpg)

The Rem is a fine gun but I prefer the lighter ULite and the 209 primer system versus the LRMP system used in the Rem for ignition.



Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: M_ray on April 17, 2018, 02:12:21 PM
No, does not have to be exposed. I'm not sure there is a 209 ignition available that's exposed, so they pretty much had to remove that restriction if they were going to allow 209's. Now all the muzzleloaders at the Cabelas store are legal.

My TC black diamond has an exposed 209 conversion
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Sabotloader on April 17, 2018, 02:13:59 PM
No, does not have to be exposed. I'm not sure there is a 209 ignition available that's exposed, so they pretty much had to remove that restriction if they were going to allow 209's. Now all the muzzleloaders at the Cabelas store are legal.

My TC black diamond has an exposed 209 conversion

Many of the older 209 ignitions were exposed... My old Remington 700ML was also exposed although I made a shield for it...

Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Fl0und3rz on April 17, 2018, 06:22:54 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: fish vacuum on April 23, 2018, 11:53:33 AM
Really disappointing to hear back from Traditions and learn that my rifle can't be converted to use 209s. This wasn't something I thought about when I bought it. Selling it doesn't seem like a winning option now either.
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 23, 2018, 12:15:51 PM
Really disappointing to hear back from Traditions and learn that my rifle can't be converted to use 209s. This wasn't something I thought about when I bought it. Selling it doesn't seem like a winning option now either.

Maybe just keep it Incase you hunt a state that you have to use percussion caps and get a new one for here if you want to run 209ís. I can convert mine but will leave 1 of 3 setup with musket caps Incase I need it on another hunt that requires it.
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: andersonjk4 on April 23, 2018, 01:05:34 PM
What's the best 209 primer fired muzzy?

This is just my thought... I use the Winchester W209.  If you are going to make the switch to 209's & BH-209 powder the correct primer will depend on the breech plug installed in your rifle.

Since BH requires a much higher ignition temp, you will see that Western Powders suggests a 'mag' type primer.  But again it really depends on the BP in you rifle.

Both Western and CVA offer an aftermarket BH209 breech plug

If you have a Knight the existing 209 BP's and a W209 will work great!

So would you recommend the 209'mag' primers for those breech plugs designed for use with pellets (longer flash holes) and non-mag primers for those designed for BH209 or other loose powders where the breech plug is hollowed out to allow the primer to be closer to the powder charge?
Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: Sabotloader on April 23, 2018, 02:12:41 PM
What's the best 209 primer fired muzzy?

This is just my thought... I use the Winchester W209.  If you are going to make the switch to 209's & BH-209 powder the correct primer will depend on the breech plug installed in your rifle.

Since BH requires a much higher ignition temp, you will see that Western Powders suggests a 'mag' type primer.  But again it really depends on the BP in you rifle.

Both Western and CVA offer an aftermarket BH209 breech plug

If you have a Knight the existing 209 BP's and a W209 will work great!

So would you recommend the 209'mag' primers for those breech plugs designed for use with pellets (longer flash holes) and non-mag primers for those designed for BH209 or other loose powders where the breech plug is hollowed out to allow the primer to be closer to the powder charge?

It is not as much about the length of the BP as it is about how the BP is built. The size diameter of the flash channel and the size of the flash hole are really important.

(https://s26.postimg.cc/krbviaam1/bp_diagram.jpg)

Look at the length of a Knight BP...

(https://s26.postimg.cc/nzaxvvant/Lehigh_Plugs.jpg)

Even with these long plugs I can shoot BH with a W209 or even a Winchester T7 primer.  I think the real secret is the 5/32" flash channel and 0.031 flsh hole.

This is a really TC Triumph BP that I altered to shoot... Drilled the 1/8" flash channel out to 5/32" then drilled the end of the plug to accept a Lehigh Vent Liner.

(https://s26.postimg.cc/lhfc2hhdl/Triumph_Composite.jpg)

You can see the vent liner is installed right on the nose of the BP.  It shoots BH fine with regular 209 primers.

These are CVA plugs that underwent the same modfications.... open the flash channel and Install a vent liner

(https://s26.postimg.cc/rrn08l649/CompletedPlugs.jpg)

Of course Western Powders will always tell you the closer the better - that is why they liked the TC Omega plug so much

(https://s26.postimg.cc/q8nxsm81l/plugs1.jpg)

These are really short plugs and they do help but even then modifying them makes them better suited for BH

This Omega has been drilled and then tapped to install a Vent liner

(https://s26.postimg.cc/ef7r5fi2h/TapComposite.jpg)







Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: kselkhunter on April 23, 2018, 03:20:34 PM
I just put a CVA breech plug for Blackhorn 209 in nitride finish on order with Muzzle-loaders.com  to swap onto my CVA Accura V2 Nitride.

Looking forward to receiving it and getting some practice time in. Just need to get my hands on some BH 209 powder and primers at a local store....didn't want to pay that hazmat fee for online order.

I'll be sticking with the Barnes T-EZ 250 grain saboted bullet.  I'm assuming will work up to 100units BH209, and 209 primer.  Unless anybody that has this same setup has a different load suggestion? 



Title: Re: 209 Primers
Post by: reelamin on April 28, 2018, 09:54:44 PM
I just put a CVA breech plug for Blackhorn 209 in nitride finish on order with Muzzle-loaders.com  to swap onto my CVA Accura V2 Nitride.

Looking forward to receiving it and getting some practice time in. Just need to get my hands on some BH 209 powder and primers at a local store....didn't want to pay that hazmat fee for online order.

I'll be sticking with the Barnes T-EZ 250 grain saboted bullet.  I'm assuming will work up to 100units BH209, and 209 primer.  Unless anybody that has this same setup has a different load suggestion?

Maybe Im a little different.   I am currently re-working all my loads for two different rifles.  A Big Horn and a Traditions Pursuit....both in 209.   You might be suprised at the ballistics of a 290 compared to a 250.   The 290 will have slightly more impact Ft Lbs...but its sectional density is much more.  SD is what equates to penetration.....and penetration is what kills big/tough animals.  Deer are super easy to kill....hit them with just about anything and they will drop in 100yds.  Not the same for Elk, Moose, Bear...but just my opinion based on what I have seen.     Example...the 6.5 Creedmore guys showing all the antelope pics at 700yds....well duh...an antelope is smaller than a big dog...kill them with a large slingshot.