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Big Game Hunting => Other Big Game => Topic started by: PastorJoel on May 01, 2018, 12:16:05 PM


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Title: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: PastorJoel on May 01, 2018, 12:16:05 PM
I keep reading about how cougars are killing lots of game.  This led me to wonder...

Is there a creative way that we as hunters could partner up and legally and ethically reduce cougar numbers in areas where this is most needed?  (Also, even if successful, would this be enough to really make a difference in game populations?)

When hunting deer, sometimes people have a "deer drive" where one or two guys walk through the trees and push the deer for others.  Is there some crazy way that using all of our combined knowledge, trail cams, time in the woods, etc. that we could create a system for targeting cats in problem areas?  Maybe a database where all of us share info and team up to get one or two cats and it doesn't matter who actually kills it.

This sounds really difficult because cats are so sneaky.  I know nothing!    It's just a question. :dunno: :dunno:

I suppose one issue is that the number of cats that can be killed in one area is limited.  hmmm...  :dunno: :dunno:
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 12:22:42 PM
Most of the state's Cougar quota's were filled this last season, so we've done our part.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/cougar/

We need to lobby WDFW to get rid of the harvest guidelines and give them the same rules as coyotes.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: PastorJoel on May 01, 2018, 12:30:42 PM
Maybe we try to double the late season quota during the early season?  :chuckle:  No quota in the early season.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 12:41:33 PM
The only thing we can do is vote Inslee out of office.   The commission wanted to increase the Cougar quota but Jay Inslee squashed it. 


We can't do anything with a governor like that in power.  With his personal interest in Cougar, we can expect much the same for Wolves, we will not see positive wolf management with Inslee in office.  I'm amazed we have any wolves killed due to depredation, but it is part of the wolf plan so perhaps he can't intervene there.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Bob33 on May 01, 2018, 12:50:55 PM
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/inslee-reverses-panels-decision-to-increase-cougar-hunts/

Gov. Jay Inslee has reversed a state wildlife panel’s decision to expand cougar hunting in areas of Washington occupied by wolves.

Inslee sided with The Humane Society of the United States and other conservation groups, which appealed a decision by the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission to raise cougar quotas in known wolf territories.

The governor agreed that the panel improperly applied state law when it increased the cougar harvests through a last-minute amendment. The panel approved a rule that was substantially different from one it had proposed and didn’t allow the public an opportunity to comment, Inslee wrote Monday in a letter to the Humane Society informing the group of his decision.

In April, the commission increased the cougar harvest rate in 14 areas of the state as a way to ease tensions in communities over the state’s growing wolf population. Gray wolves are endangered in Washington and cannot be hunted. There are 16 confirmed wolf packs, all in Eastern Washington.

The commission — a citizen panel that sets policy for the state Department of Fish and Wildlife — considered a proposed rule that set the maximum limits at 16 percent of local populations, keeping with previous levels. However, at its April 10 meeting, the panel approved a last-minute amendment to increase cougar quotas up to 21 percent in areas with confirmed wolf packs.

The increase was designed to provide relief to communities beleaguered by wolves and other predators, Commissioner Miranda Wecker said in a statement at the time. Some commissioners said the change wouldn’t hurt the state’s cougar population.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 01, 2018, 12:54:37 PM
live bait is probably best.  Cougars are so crafty I can't see a drive being that effective--unless you can run fast after them, then might get them in the snow.  I've heard of guys in Colorado that ski them down....kind of like biathalon.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Cougartail on May 01, 2018, 12:57:01 PM
The only thing we can do is vote Inslee out of office. 

 :yeah: Politicians make terrible wildlife management decisions. Idiot politicians even worse..

The initiative process should also never be used to regulate wildlife decisions.  :bash:
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bobcat on May 01, 2018, 12:59:32 PM
Teaming up would be a good idea, along with a combination of all methods. Hunt in the snow, use bait, electronic calls, cellular trail cameras that email photos as soon as they're taken, etc.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Timberstalker on May 01, 2018, 01:05:55 PM
Most of the state's Cougar quota's were filled this last season, so we've done our part.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/cougar/

We need to lobby WDFW to get rid of the harvest guidelines and give them the same rules as coyotes.

This link does not provide competent data on how many quotas were filled.  They are all "closed" because cat hunting closed yesterday.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Special T on May 01, 2018, 01:57:34 PM
It was my understanding that the western half didn't fill it's quota, but a bunch of eastern did.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 02:48:14 PM
We should all try to exceed the quota's by Jan 1 next year much as we can.  Start hard in September and fill as many tags as possible by Jan 1 when the harvest guidelines kick in.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 02:50:16 PM
Most of the state's Cougar quota's were filled this last season, so we've done our part.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/cougar/

We need to lobby WDFW to get rid of the harvest guidelines and give them the same rules as coyotes.

This link does not provide competent data on how many quotas were filled.  They are all "closed" because cat hunting closed yesterday.

ya, day late and a dollar short, ah well, most of the E side units were filled and I think a lot of W side units as well.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bigmacc on May 01, 2018, 03:13:15 PM

Like some have said, quotas need to be increased, especially in areas where herds are being devastated and predator numbers are skyrocketing(IE-Methow), as far as a better way to hunt them, there is a lot of good suggestions on here. I have started hunting them the last 3 years, can't seem to find them during the season, but run into lots when I,m not looking for them, the season is closed or quotas have been met. For instance, I didn't buy a tag this last deer seasony and ran into 4 while deer hunting, stumbled into a bunch of half buried kills in a particular area. I told another couple guys about the area and they went in and got one, don't know about the other 3(all different cats :tup:) I went home the next day, when you see that many cats and activity in a particular small area you know there is a lot of cats in that valley as a whole, killing a lot of mule deer! Oh yes, and WDFW sure is spending a lot on our predators as far as time, manpower, equipment etc., a lot of the ones we seen had fancy collars and transmitters on them, including the one those other fellas killed, for some reason they sure like them.....Bigger quotas or emergency hound hunting in areas that herds are being hit hard :tup:. I remember when cougar tags were 5 bucks(not that long ago either) now that they have developed a nice big population of predators they have cougar tags up to $24 now days. Sorry for the rant....
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Humptulips on May 01, 2018, 04:08:25 PM
Most of the state's Cougar quota's were filled this last season, so we've done our part.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/cougar/

We need to lobby WDFW to get rid of the harvest guidelines and give them the same rules as coyotes.

This link does not provide competent data on how many quotas were filled.  They are all "closed" because cat hunting closed yesterday.

ya, day late and a dollar short, ah well, most of the E side units were filled and I think a lot of W side units as well.

Nope, not correct 55% of cougar management areas did not reach quota last year. That is an increase in harvest. The average number of PMAs reaching quota in any given year has been closer to 40%.
From what I can see snow and open ground are factors in areas reaching quota. Most west side PMAs where it is brushy and see less snow rarely reach quota.
If you are hunting I would say your odds are greatly increased if you can determine from tracks where they are at. That takes snow. What ever method, calling or just spot and stalk type hunting that is my one take away. Snow lets you narrow down the area likely to have cougar.

On the East side where most of the full quotas are we need either an increase in quota by increasing allowable percentages or higher estimated population numbers.
One the west side the only hope I see that doesn't go through the legislature is allowing cougar to be harvested with traps. Very doable IMO and I am seeing perceptibly more support from the Department. Not there yet but if more people would ask for it maybe.

WDFW is rewriting the Cougar management plan this year or so I have been told. This is the time to get changes so every organization needs to be bugging them about it.

Points I am trying to make:
Allowable harvest needs to be increased. There are studies which suggest harvest of much more then 16% could be sustained.
Increase the size of PMAs. No other animals in the State is so micro-managed. This would allow quotas from difficult to hunt areas to meld into more easily hunted areas that the cats will migrate into anyway.
Make trapping an allowable method of take for cougar.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2018, 04:49:35 PM
Were lion quota numbers way lower when hound hunting was legal? I didn't live here then and don't really know anything about it. I found this article that shows harvest #'s pre-hound ban and post-hound ban.
http://www.mountainlion.org/us/wa/library/WA-R-Martorello-Beausoleil-2003-ABSTRACT-Characteristics-of-Cougar-Harvest-with-and-Without-the-Use-of-Dogs.pdf

Also looking at WDFW harvest reports, harvest #'s have been higher most years than they ever were during legal hound hunting years, 2016 being the highest ever at 277 lions.
I'm sure there's a reason for the lower numbers during the hound hunting years. Maybe it's because there were less cats because of hound hunting??
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/



Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: idaho guy on May 01, 2018, 05:42:59 PM
Were lion quota numbers way lower when hound hunting was legal? I didn't live here then and don't really know anything about it. I found this article that shows harvest #'s pre-hound ban and post-hound ban.
http://www.mountainlion.org/us/wa/library/WA-R-Martorello-Beausoleil-2003-ABSTRACT-Characteristics-of-Cougar-Harvest-with-and-Without-the-Use-of-Dogs.pdf

Also looking at WDFW harvest reports, harvest #'s have been higher most years than they ever were during legal hound hunting years, 2016 being the highest ever at 277 lions.
I'm sure there's a reason for the lower numbers during the hound hunting years. Maybe it's because there were less cats because of hound hunting??
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/

I would guess with permit only for dogs vs a general season there was a more limited number of hunters allowed. And if you look at the season dates for the permit only dog hunts they were pretty short. Could easily have had not great snow/tracking conditions for some of the days November to jan 15th they show. I am guessing definitely less cats at that time but less hunting opportunity with limited permits and a shorter season too.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Humptulips on May 01, 2018, 06:13:36 PM
Were lion quota numbers way lower when hound hunting was legal? I didn't live here then and don't really know anything about it. I found this article that shows harvest #'s pre-hound ban and post-hound ban.
http://www.mountainlion.org/us/wa/library/WA-R-Martorello-Beausoleil-2003-ABSTRACT-Characteristics-of-Cougar-Harvest-with-and-Without-the-Use-of-Dogs.pdf

Also looking at WDFW harvest reports, harvest #'s have been higher most years than they ever were during legal hound hunting years, 2016 being the highest ever at 277 lions.
I'm sure there's a reason for the lower numbers during the hound hunting years. Maybe it's because there were less cats because of hound hunting??
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/

Off the top of my head so don't shoot me if I am a year off but I think the quotas did not exist before 2004. Before that to 1996 it was wide open numbers wise but of course with no hounds. At that time I believe the Department figured to control harvest through season length
Prior to 96 to sometime in the late 80s we had the limited permits. Then before that no bag limit. Cougar became a game animal in I think 66.

I can tell you the harvest went up because the population went up. Prior to the permit hunting time period it was notable to see a cougar track. By the late 90s not so much and add another 5 to 7 years and it is ho hum.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: ctwiggs1 on May 01, 2018, 06:20:50 PM
More cougars = more cougar seen/killed.

Deer drives are for whitetail.  The cougar will just stare at you while you walk under him.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: runamuk on May 15, 2018, 09:31:48 PM
If anyone wants to come hunt cats I have them coming out my ears. We have had 3 or 4 sightings now in camp since the end of March.  Apparently 300 noisy kids is not much deterrent. My valley is full of cats.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Timberstalker on May 15, 2018, 10:01:34 PM
If anyone wants to come hunt cats I have them coming out my ears. We have had 3 or 4 sightings now in camp since the end of March.  Apparently 300 noisy kids is not much deterrent. My valley is full of cats.

Tons of cats in that valley. Too many.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: yakimanoob on May 16, 2018, 08:35:08 AM

The initiative process should also never be used to regulate wildlife decisions.  :bash:

TTTTTHHHHHHIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSS

Simply majority of respondents is an asinine way to regulate wildlife. 
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on May 16, 2018, 08:42:21 AM
Were lion quota numbers way lower when hound hunting was legal? I didn't live here then and don't really know anything about it. I found this article that shows harvest #'s pre-hound ban and post-hound ban.
http://www.mountainlion.org/us/wa/library/WA-R-Martorello-Beausoleil-2003-ABSTRACT-Characteristics-of-Cougar-Harvest-with-and-Without-the-Use-of-Dogs.pdf

Also looking at WDFW harvest reports, harvest #'s have been higher most years than they ever were during legal hound hunting years, 2016 being the highest ever at 277 lions.
I'm sure there's a reason for the lower numbers during the hound hunting years. Maybe it's because there were less cats because of hound hunting??
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/

those numbers are for hound permit harvest, in supplement to what boot hunters were shooting much like they are doing now ie; during deer and elk season.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: jstone on May 16, 2018, 08:55:05 AM
Imagine the numbers for the first year on that hunters report if they brought back hounds.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on May 16, 2018, 09:14:47 AM
Imagine the numbers for the first year on that hunters report if they brought back hounds.

there would be all sorts of "hound hunters" that first year and then alot less the next lol
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bearpaw on May 16, 2018, 09:48:23 AM
Were lion quota numbers way lower when hound hunting was legal? I didn't live here then and don't really know anything about it. I found this article that shows harvest #'s pre-hound ban and post-hound ban.
http://www.mountainlion.org/us/wa/library/WA-R-Martorello-Beausoleil-2003-ABSTRACT-Characteristics-of-Cougar-Harvest-with-and-Without-the-Use-of-Dogs.pdf

Also looking at WDFW harvest reports, harvest #'s have been higher most years than they ever were during legal hound hunting years, 2016 being the highest ever at 277 lions.
I'm sure there's a reason for the lower numbers during the hound hunting years. Maybe it's because there were less cats because of hound hunting??
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/

Off the top of my head so don't shoot me if I am a year off but I think the quotas did not exist before 2004. Before that to 1996 it was wide open numbers wise but of course with no hounds. At that time I believe the Department figured to control harvest through season length
Prior to 96 to sometime in the late 80s we had the limited permits. Then before that no bag limit. Cougar became a game animal in I think 66.

I can tell you the harvest went up because the population went up. Prior to the permit hunting time period it was notable to see a cougar track. By the late 90s not so much and add another 5 to 7 years and it is ho hum.


My dad told me stories when I was a kid about hound hunting with Cougar Sam (Sam Miller). That was during the bounty days in the 50's in northeast WA. They caught cougar but they had to go back into the mountains to find them.

I started hunting cougar with a friend in 1976. In 1977 he and I started what I now call Bearpaw Outfitters. During the 70's and early 80's we figured 1 week for a cougar hunt, if we hunted hard for 1 week we would get hunters filled out with an adult cat, sometimes we might find 3 to 5 fresh tracks in a week if the weather was in our favor. By the mid 80's cougar numbers were climbing and we were becoming more selective, we killed many record book cats in the 80's and early 90's including a Pope & Young world record.

In the 80's WDFW started a permit system and in 2 or 3 years it seemed like the cougar population doubled, I started offering 3 day cougar hunts and we were usually 100% successful. By the early to mid 90's it seems the cougar population had tripled or quadrupled, we would find 5 tracks per day on the average, my record was finding tracks of what we figured were 15 different cougar in a 24 hour period. By that time I was offering a guaranteed 3 day cougar hunt. The last full season that we cougar hunted in WA we caught 58 cougar, the season was roughly 2 months long, we caught cougar almost every day we hunted. We had 23 cougar permit holders that year, all of whom filled their tag, the other 25 cats we photographed and left in the tree.

The next year the voters voted out cougar hunting with hounds. Since that time more and more people have had cougar sightings in areas that used to never hold cougar. This whole state is full of cougar now, there used to be a lot of areas that had no cougar, today there are cougar pretty much everywhere, thus the reason boot hunters are filling the cougar quotas.

It should be noted that the decline in mule deer (the favorite food of most cougar) mirrors the increase in cougars. Back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's was the hay day of mule deer hunting in WA. With the number of predators that we have on the ground today it's nearly impossible for mule deer numbers to increase much in most areas of the state.

The cougar quotas in NE WA are ridiculously low, in GMU 105 the quota is 2, one female replaces that every other year and I would guess there might be 20 females in that unit. The quotas are based on research done by Wielgus, the controversial professor from WSU.

I do credit the WDFW Commission for attempting to increase quota numbers slightly a couple years ago, but Governor Inslee rescinded their decision.  :bash:

In neighboring Idaho, most units have hound hunting open from Dec 1 till March 31 and you can take 2 cougar per year with no quota on the total kill in many units. In spite of that IDFG says cougar numbers are still over objective in many units.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: MooseZ25 on May 16, 2018, 11:10:53 AM
Were lion quota numbers way lower when hound hunting was legal? I didn't live here then and don't really know anything about it. I found this article that shows harvest #'s pre-hound ban and post-hound ban.
http://www.mountainlion.org/us/wa/library/WA-R-Martorello-Beausoleil-2003-ABSTRACT-Characteristics-of-Cougar-Harvest-with-and-Without-the-Use-of-Dogs.pdf

Also looking at WDFW harvest reports, harvest #'s have been higher most years than they ever were during legal hound hunting years, 2016 being the highest ever at 277 lions.
I'm sure there's a reason for the lower numbers during the hound hunting years. Maybe it's because there were less cats because of hound hunting??
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/

Off the top of my head so don't shoot me if I am a year off but I think the quotas did not exist before 2004. Before that to 1996 it was wide open numbers wise but of course with no hounds. At that time I believe the Department figured to control harvest through season length
Prior to 96 to sometime in the late 80s we had the limited permits. Then before that no bag limit. Cougar became a game animal in I think 66.

I can tell you the harvest went up because the population went up. Prior to the permit hunting time period it was notable to see a cougar track. By the late 90s not so much and add another 5 to 7 years and it is ho hum.


My dad told me stories when I was a kid about hound hunting with Cougar Sam (Sam Miller). That was during the bounty days in the 50's in northeast WA. They caught cougar but they had to go back into the mountains to find them.

I started hunting cougar with a friend in 1976. In 1977 he and I started what I now call Bearpaw Outfitters. During the 70's and early 80's we figured 1 week for a cougar hunt, if we hunted hard for 1 week we would get hunters filled out with an adult cat, sometimes we might find 3 to 5 fresh tracks in a week if the weather was in our favor. By the mid 80's cougar numbers were climbing and we were becoming more selective, we killed many record book cats in the 80's and early 90's including a Pope & Young world record.

In the 80's WDFW started a permit system and in 2 or 3 years it seemed like the cougar population doubled, I started offering 3 day cougar hunts and we were usually 100% successful. By the early to mid 90's it seems the cougar population had tripled or quadrupled, we would find 5 tracks per day on the average, my record was finding tracks of what we figured were 15 different cougar in a 24 hour period. By that time I was offering a guaranteed 3 day cougar hunt. The last full season that we cougar hunted in WA we caught 58 cougar, the season was roughly 2 months long, we caught cougar almost every day we hunted. We had 23 cougar permit holders that year, all of whom filled their tag, the other 25 cats we photographed and left in the tree.

The next year the voters voted out cougar hunting with hounds. Since that time more and more people have had cougar sightings in areas that used to never hold cougar. This whole state is full of cougar now, there used to be a lot of areas that had no cougar, today there are cougar pretty much everywhere, thus the reason boot hunters are filling the cougar quotas.

It should be noted that the decline in mule deer (the favorite food of most cougar) mirrors the increase in cougars. Back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's was the hay day of mule deer hunting in WA. With the number of predators that we have on the ground today it's nearly impossible for mule deer numbers to increase much in most areas of the state.

The cougar quotas in NE WA are ridiculously low, in GMU 105 the quota is 2, one female replaces that every other year and I would guess there might be 20 females in that unit. The quotas are based on research done by Wielgus, the controversial professor from WSU.

I do credit the WDFW Commission for attempting to increase quota numbers slightly a couple years ago, but Governor Inslee rescinded their decision.  :bash:

In neighboring Idaho, most units have hound hunting open from Dec 1 till March 31 and you can take 2 cougar per year with no quota on the total kill in many units. In spite of that IDFG says cougar numbers are still over objective in many units.

Oh the good ole days Dale.  When we had a strong ungulate population and cats and bears were managed with success.  We will not see this again in our lifetime. :twocents:
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: trophyhunt on May 16, 2018, 11:17:52 AM
Put them at the same level as coyotes, and put a bounty on both, including bobcats!
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bearpaw on May 16, 2018, 12:02:06 PM
Were lion quota numbers way lower when hound hunting was legal? I didn't live here then and don't really know anything about it. I found this article that shows harvest #'s pre-hound ban and post-hound ban.
http://www.mountainlion.org/us/wa/library/WA-R-Martorello-Beausoleil-2003-ABSTRACT-Characteristics-of-Cougar-Harvest-with-and-Without-the-Use-of-Dogs.pdf

Also looking at WDFW harvest reports, harvest #'s have been higher most years than they ever were during legal hound hunting years, 2016 being the highest ever at 277 lions.
I'm sure there's a reason for the lower numbers during the hound hunting years. Maybe it's because there were less cats because of hound hunting??
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/

Off the top of my head so don't shoot me if I am a year off but I think the quotas did not exist before 2004. Before that to 1996 it was wide open numbers wise but of course with no hounds. At that time I believe the Department figured to control harvest through season length
Prior to 96 to sometime in the late 80s we had the limited permits. Then before that no bag limit. Cougar became a game animal in I think 66.

I can tell you the harvest went up because the population went up. Prior to the permit hunting time period it was notable to see a cougar track. By the late 90s not so much and add another 5 to 7 years and it is ho hum.


My dad told me stories when I was a kid about hound hunting with Cougar Sam (Sam Miller). That was during the bounty days in the 50's in northeast WA. They caught cougar but they had to go back into the mountains to find them.

I started hunting cougar with a friend in 1976. In 1977 he and I started what I now call Bearpaw Outfitters. During the 70's and early 80's we figured 1 week for a cougar hunt, if we hunted hard for 1 week we would get hunters filled out with an adult cat, sometimes we might find 3 to 5 fresh tracks in a week if the weather was in our favor. By the mid 80's cougar numbers were climbing and we were becoming more selective, we killed many record book cats in the 80's and early 90's including a Pope & Young world record.

In the 80's WDFW started a permit system and in 2 or 3 years it seemed like the cougar population doubled, I started offering 3 day cougar hunts and we were usually 100% successful. By the early to mid 90's it seems the cougar population had tripled or quadrupled, we would find 5 tracks per day on the average, my record was finding tracks of what we figured were 15 different cougar in a 24 hour period. By that time I was offering a guaranteed 3 day cougar hunt. The last full season that we cougar hunted in WA we caught 58 cougar, the season was roughly 2 months long, we caught cougar almost every day we hunted. We had 23 cougar permit holders that year, all of whom filled their tag, the other 25 cats we photographed and left in the tree.

The next year the voters voted out cougar hunting with hounds. Since that time more and more people have had cougar sightings in areas that used to never hold cougar. This whole state is full of cougar now, there used to be a lot of areas that had no cougar, today there are cougar pretty much everywhere, thus the reason boot hunters are filling the cougar quotas.

It should be noted that the decline in mule deer (the favorite food of most cougar) mirrors the increase in cougars. Back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's was the hay day of mule deer hunting in WA. With the number of predators that we have on the ground today it's nearly impossible for mule deer numbers to increase much in most areas of the state.

The cougar quotas in NE WA are ridiculously low, in GMU 105 the quota is 2, one female replaces that every other year and I would guess there might be 20 females in that unit. The quotas are based on research done by Wielgus, the controversial professor from WSU.

I do credit the WDFW Commission for attempting to increase quota numbers slightly a couple years ago, but Governor Inslee rescinded their decision.  :bash:

In neighboring Idaho, most units have hound hunting open from Dec 1 till March 31 and you can take 2 cougar per year with no quota on the total kill in many units. In spite of that IDFG says cougar numbers are still over objective in many units.

Oh the good ole days Dale.  When we had a strong ungulate population and cats and bears were managed with success.  We will not see this again in our lifetime. :twocents:

Probably never again in WA!
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: KFhunter on May 16, 2018, 12:44:32 PM
You think there's only 20 females in 105?  I'd have guessed 100+
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Ridgeratt on May 16, 2018, 01:41:59 PM
You could always let the cattle rancher's deal with them when they see them.

Wouldn't count towards quota just collateral damage. Same as calf loss to cougars but on the other foot.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bigmacc on May 16, 2018, 01:45:11 PM
Imagine the numbers for the first year on that hunters report if they brought back hounds.

The numbers would be huge and that alone would save a whole lot of deer and elk but not even close to getting the population under control to the point we would see a difference in our ungulate numbers, my idea would be a 3 year set up, like they do when setting up our game hunting seasons. When numbers get to the point that deer herds plummet, people are seeing cats under bridges, in backyards, in neighborhoods etc. etc. on increasing instances obviously there are problems with population control.When the population is booming as it is now bring back hound hunting for a 3 year block, still allow boot seasons but allow hound permits to be sold to actually put a dent into these growing numbers of cats.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: BreezyBear on May 16, 2018, 02:04:26 PM
Increase quotas and make cougar season concurrent with bear season.  Here, bear opens August 1st, but cougar doesn't until September first.  Just plain stupid.   :twocents:
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bearpaw on May 17, 2018, 10:29:54 AM
You think there's only 20 females in 105?  I'd have guessed 100+

I used to hunt that unit all winter for cats, but obviously that was years ago, so I definitely do not know for sure, but it might be double what I said, I was being conservative so I didn't sound like a fanatic, but I doubt there are 100 females, but maybe 100 total cougar including females, males, and kittens.

I never did hear how many cats they confirmed in the 105 study area when they did the cougar study several years back, did you hear the number?
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: rainshadow1 on May 17, 2018, 11:10:33 AM
Lloyd Beebe was a bounty houndsman in the Olympics back in the day. He took dozens and dozens out of the Olympic Peninsula every year, year after year. Never hurt the population. Never.

Back in the days of the "scorched earth" wildlife management era (post colonial eastern USA) they did have "Drives." Hundreds and hundreds of people, all the town would go out, set up in a 30 mile circle, and converge. They'd push cats. ("Puma" back then.) That's how they eradicated them from the East. Wolves too.

Cattle driving era was a shoot on sight policy, but was nothing to population control.

Hounds are the only thing that can keep them at bay. We're getting better with calls, but with the quotas, we'll never touch them. This government (as has been stated and stated and stated) is working dilligently to "manage" human beings out of the equasion. The predators are supposed to do our job. Hunters are being phased out.

It's intimidating to think about, Pastor Joel... but it's come to my mind several times over the past few years... there will be a time, and that time is. . . . soon . . . when we'll have to choose which laws we obey and which ones we just, well... 'never heard about.' Mostly has to do with living by the standard my wife and I have chosen to follow (which isn't the RCW) in schooling, defending, and raising our kids, but management of our natural resources can apply to that world view without any creativity, when you think it over.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: ctwiggs1 on May 17, 2018, 11:14:59 AM
Lloyd Beebe was a bounty houndsman in the Olympics back in the day. He took dozens and dozens out of the Olympic Peninsula every year, year after year. Never hurt the population. Never.

Back in the days of the "scorched earth" wildlife management era (post colonial eastern USA) they did have "Drives." Hundreds and hundreds of people, all the town would go out, set up in a 30 mile circle, and converge. They'd push cats. ("Puma" back then.) That's how they eradicated them from the East. Wolves too.

Cattle driving era was a shoot on sight policy, but was nothing to population control.

Hounds are the only thing that can keep them at bay. We're getting better with calls, but with the quotas, we'll never touch them. This government (as has been stated and stated and stated) is working diligently to "manage" human beings out of the equation. The predators are supposed to do our job. Hunters are being phased out.

It's intimidating to think about, Pastor Joel... but it's come to my mind several times over the past few years... there will be a time, and that time is. . . . soon . . . when we'll have to choose which laws we obey and which ones we just, well... 'never heard about.' Mostly has to do with living by the standard my wife and I have chosen to follow (which isn't the RCW) in schooling, defending, and raising our kids, but management of our natural resources can apply to that world view without any creativity, when you think it over.

4 years ago - before I had kids - I would have probably looked at this post and called you crazy.

Not so much now. 

Also, I have been trying to figure out how to phrase how I feel about wildlife management practice and I think you phrased it perfectly:
Quote
This government (as has been stated and stated and stated) is working diligently to "manage" human beings out of the equation. The predators are supposed to do our job. Hunters are being phased out.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bearpaw on May 17, 2018, 11:29:18 AM
Lloyd Beebe was a bounty houndsman in the Olympics back in the day. He took dozens and dozens out of the Olympic Peninsula every year, year after year. Never hurt the population. Never.

Back in the days of the "scorched earth" wildlife management era (post colonial eastern USA) they did have "Drives." Hundreds and hundreds of people, all the town would go out, set up in a 30 mile circle, and converge. They'd push cats. ("Puma" back then.) That's how they eradicated them from the East. Wolves too.

Cattle driving era was a shoot on sight policy, but was nothing to population control.

Hounds are the only thing that can keep them at bay. We're getting better with calls, but with the quotas, we'll never touch them. This government (as has been stated and stated and stated) is working diligently to "manage" human beings out of the equation. The predators are supposed to do our job. Hunters are being phased out.

It's intimidating to think about, Pastor Joel... but it's come to my mind several times over the past few years... there will be a time, and that time is. . . . soon . . . when we'll have to choose which laws we obey and which ones we just, well... 'never heard about.' Mostly has to do with living by the standard my wife and I have chosen to follow (which isn't the RCW) in schooling, defending, and raising our kids, but management of our natural resources can apply to that world view without any creativity, when you think it over.

4 years ago - before I had kids - I would have probably looked at this post and called you crazy.

Not so much now. 

Also, I have been trying to figure out how to phrase how I feel about wildlife management practice and I think you phrased it perfectly:
Quote
This government (as has been stated and stated and stated) is working diligently to "manage" human beings out of the equation. The predators are supposed to do our job. Hunters are being phased out.

Hunters are certainly being phased out of predator management. The goal of Wielgus' cougar management is for the WA cougar population to be self regulating. They have essentially accomplished that, cougar are probably killing themselves off more than hunters are participating with the ridiculous low quotas. We have as many cougar as the state can support. WDFW no longer exists to manage for recreational opportunity. The only way this can change is if politics in WA change dramatically, I don't see that happening with WA politics.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Ridgeratt on May 17, 2018, 11:37:17 AM
Here is a map of one they had collared during the study and she spent most of her time in Canada.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: rainshadow1 on May 17, 2018, 11:40:14 AM
Cougars always have killed WAY more of each other than humans have. ("COUGAR: Ecology & Conservation. Edited by Maurice Hornocker & Sharon Negri") To say that they're wanting the Lion population to self regulate is to switch management study entirely to the soon to be depredated stats of ungulates. When the deer and elk numbers are debilitated sufficiently, then the cat numbers will balance based on fatal territorial confrontations... and starvation. Plain and simple.

Absolutely true, Dale... but most people don't realize how BLINDLY STUPID that is!
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bearpaw on May 17, 2018, 11:43:32 AM
 :yeah:  Especially stupid in a state that has plenty of livestock, pets, and humans running around in cougar habitat!


Ridgeratt, are you sure that isn't a map of a tom?
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Ridgeratt on May 17, 2018, 11:45:10 AM
A 8 year old female. Just rechecked tooth data.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bearpaw on May 17, 2018, 11:49:12 AM
A 8 year old female. Just rechecked tooth data.

Thanks, she was a pretty wide ranging female!
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Ridgeratt on May 17, 2018, 11:50:37 AM
A 8 year old female. Just rechecked tooth data.

Thanks, she was a pretty wide ranging female!

She probably wasn't counted in the state since she was a transit who crossed borders.   :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bearpaw on May 17, 2018, 11:51:43 AM
A 8 year old female. Just rechecked tooth data.

Thanks, she was a pretty wide ranging female!

She probably wasn't counted in the state since she was a transit who crossed borders.   :chuckle: :chuckle:

 :chuckle: well we are a sanctuary state...
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: ctwiggs1 on May 17, 2018, 11:53:21 AM
I call Bruce Richards telling me about a cougar collared in Issaquah that was later found around the Okanogan area.

Fairly impressive journey.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Ridgeratt on May 17, 2018, 11:53:45 AM
A 8 year old female. Just rechecked tooth data.

Thanks, she was a pretty wide ranging female!

She probably wasn't counted in the state since she was a transit who crossed borders.   :chuckle: :chuckle:

 :chuckle: well we are a sanctuary state...

And that explains the wolves up there as well.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 17, 2018, 11:56:00 AM
I love that you want to find a solution. I fear that you're missing the point and basis for our predator problems in WA.

Before you can effectively reduce cougar numbers, the WDFW has to become better at their counts. The quotas are based on a percentage take of 14% +/- 2% to maintain healthy cougar populations. Recent studies in ID have shown that cougar populations may be at least twice as high as current modeling allows. So, if our numbers aren't accurate, either will the targets, by half. At current quotas, if the ID studies are correct, cougar populations will continue to meet or exceed "maximum" population levels.

There are so many challenges which face us if effective cougar management is to take place, and a great many of them are simply out of our hands - the WDFW's ability (inability), to accurately estimate populations, Jay Inslee's propensity to suck up to animal rights activists with deep pockets (he doesn't give a crap about the animals, but the money he gets from HSUS...wow!), so-called university biologists who are willing to falsify data to forward personal agendas, and the media which, with astounding ignorance, pounces at every opportunity to portray our predators as unfairly pursued, cuddly, and at any given moment, on the verge of extinction to those ignorant of conservation and the truth. I believe that the predator spiral in WA will continue out of control until the ungulates are severely reduced (or gone like the woodland caribou), and more granola eaters' children are attacked and killed.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bearpaw on May 17, 2018, 11:58:36 AM
A 8 year old female. Just rechecked tooth data.

Thanks, she was a pretty wide ranging female!

She probably wasn't counted in the state since she was a transit who crossed borders.   :chuckle: :chuckle:

 :chuckle: well we are a sanctuary state...

And that explains the wolves up there as well.  :dunno:

 :yeah: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: Ridgeratt on May 17, 2018, 12:03:08 PM
You could always let the cattle rancher's deal with them when they see them.

Wouldn't count towards quota just collateral damage. Same as calf loss to cougars but on the other foot.

I still favor this since they are out everyday could be effective.  :IBCOOL:
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: eastsidemallard74 on May 17, 2018, 01:06:35 PM
We could just overpay a biologist like $4mill a year, to help"regulate", seems to be working with the wolves issue.  :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:. Sarcasm for those that don't get it. I think until the cougars/wolves start wandering the streets of Olympia, Bellevue, Kirkland, it won't be big issue on why/how to fix. i said it in another post. Get a tranquilizer, shoot 5-6 of them and release in these areas. Than it will become a big deal when the $2500 purse dog/cat disappears.  :tup:
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: timberfaller on May 20, 2018, 06:03:11 PM
 :yeah: and MORE the better!!
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: bearpaw on May 21, 2018, 08:38:21 AM
We could just overpay a biologist like $4mill a year, to help"regulate", seems to be working with the wolves issue.  :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:. Sarcasm for those that don't get it. I think until the cougars/wolves start wandering the streets of Olympia, Bellevue, Kirkland, it won't be big issue on why/how to fix. i said it in another post. Get a tranquilizer, shoot 5-6 of them and release in these areas. Than it will become a big deal when the $2500 purse dog/cat disappears.  :tup:

I would like to think that people would see the light when attacks happen but multiple attacks in California prove that theory isn't as strong as we would think. I see by the public comments regarding the cougar attack in North Bend that even though cougar are hunted very little in WA, some people think hunting caused the attack to happen. I'm afraid WA is too much like CA to expect much support for more management.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 21, 2018, 08:45:01 AM
CA doesn't have any cougar hunting.  They got rid of all of it years ago.  They have lots of problems with them....goes agianst the WSU crackpot's theory of older cats keeping the young ones in line.
Title: Re: Is there a better way to reduce cougar numbers?
Post by: jasnt on May 21, 2018, 08:43:03 PM
I for one have switched from Deer and elk to focus solely on bear and cougar.  When my tags are filled I’ll focus on getting friends and family tags filled.  Then anyone that will go with me.  We kill a lot of predators every year, does it make a dent :dunno: but it’s my passion and I like to think it helps.

For those interested in hunting the hunters
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,185537.0.html
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