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Equipment & Gear => Power Equipment & RV => Topic started by: Skillet on July 19, 2019, 06:36:55 AM

Title: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Skillet on July 19, 2019, 06:36:55 AM
Hi fellas,

Up here fishing in AK and have an issue that I need to sort out ASAP, going the board can get me educated here a bit before I start talking to the shop here in Sitka.

My main engine is a Sisu inline 6 turbo diesel, 6.6 liter, Bosch P7100 injection pump with pencil injectors.  It just started missing and  making a lot of oil.  Diesel in the crankcase, to the tune of gaining about a gallon an hour at reduced running speed.

 I was in Lituya Bay when it started (after taking a load of fuel at Elfin Cove),  and have been running the boat back to Sitka since 10 am yesterday. I'm a hour out of town now.  Every three hours, I'll shut down and take out 5 gallons, put two gallons of fresh oil back in to get it back to the low notch on the dip stick.

At idle, I'm dropping two cylinders (#3 and #6, checked by cracking the feed lines at the injectors), and running it feels like I'm only down one. 

I question the fuel I got, and switched over to a known clean tank of fuel.  Bad injectors?  I'm a little smoky, but not really heavy. Just a blue haze.  P Pump seal gone, dumping fuel into the crankcase?  Worse?

Thanks in advance-

Chris


@woodchuck
@jackelope
@buckmark
@mudman
@southpole
@anybody else who has insight
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Dysfunctional Vet on July 19, 2019, 07:04:02 AM
Possibly failed injector sleeves.
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: BrandonWatts on July 19, 2019, 07:12:51 AM
Sounds like tips on the injectors are toast. Those p7100 are pretty hard to kill. Wouldnít run it much longer until you get them replaced. You are essentially washing the cylinder with diesel and not getting any oil on 3 and 6. Run it too long and you will be doing pistons and liners too.
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Skillet on July 19, 2019, 07:27:21 AM
Thanks guys.  Necessity dictated I get back to Sitka to get these fish off and get to a place that had some level of service, so that meant a 20 hour run on a sick engine.  No AAA out here, you bootstrap yourself out of anything you get yourself into.

Sounds like the first place to start is the injectors. I'll get a set flying my way asap and let you all know how it works. Really hoping the pump is still kosher, and didn't torch any cylinder sleeves, pistons or bearings.

Might take a quick nap first.  :chuckle:

Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Mudman on July 19, 2019, 08:09:48 AM
 :yeah:  I hope having to run it back didn't damage other parts.  I do wonder why 2 at same time?  Maybe 1 was going and ya didn't notice?  Its a wear part and Im sure you run great filtration so good luck, I think it will be ok with new inj. 
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: dyhardhuntr on July 19, 2019, 09:29:42 AM
If I was too guess Iíd say an issue with those 2 injectors. Could be they are dribbling or it lost a tip(hope not). I would pull an injector and see if you can see a crack or missing tip. If not, and itís available, have them tested. Usually if itís an injector sleeve itís fuel in the cooling system. Although Iím not familiar with the engine manufacturer. Iíve worked on countless Cummins,cat, Detroit and such engines. Also think outside the norm. If there is anywhere that oil and fuel are in the same vicinity, give it a look see. Good luck!


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Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 19, 2019, 09:42:51 AM
If there is anywhere that oil and fuel are in the same vicinity, give it a look see.

There were a number a farm tractors where pressurized diesel could enter the crankcase at the injector pump engine connection
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Woodchuck on July 19, 2019, 09:52:19 AM
You didn't just have this thing "tuned" did you?
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on July 19, 2019, 09:54:41 AM
🤔
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Skillet on July 19, 2019, 12:41:19 PM
You didn't just have this thing "tuned" did you?


Stock as a rock, man. I don't think Sinister has a fuel map for my application.
 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Skillet on July 19, 2019, 12:43:46 PM
If there is anywhere that oil and fuel are in the same vicinity, give it a look see.

There were a number a farm tractors where pressurized diesel could enter the crankcase at the injector pump engine connection
This is what I was concerned about. They use this engine in sime Massey Fergusen tractors, Hesston mowers, etc. Hoping the new injectors fix the issue, though. 
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: KFhunter on July 19, 2019, 02:10:40 PM
not familiar with Sisu, but aren't your injectors outside of the valve cover?   
So you'd see a leaky injector as it would run down the outside of the block and not make engine oil.

I find it very unlikely two injectors would go out at the same time.


The p pump uses engine oil to lube the cam and internals of the pump, diesel is probably getting in there.   If the pump is on its last leg, that would explain multiple cylinder misfires at low idle speed  (lack of fuel pressure)

that's a long run to be washing cylinders, best of luck 


A high pressure fuel gauge would help here, also low side fuel pressure. 
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Skillet on July 19, 2019, 02:37:07 PM
not familiar with Sisu, but aren't your injectors outside of the valve cover?   
So you'd see a leaky injector as it would run down the outside of the block and not make engine oil.

I find it very unlikely two injectors would go out at the same time.


The p pump uses engine oil to lube the cam and internals of the pump, diesel is probably getting in there.   If the pump is on its last leg, that would explain multiple cylinder misfires at low idle speed  (lack of fuel pressure)

that's a long run to be washing cylinders, best of luck 


A high pressure fuel gauge on the common rail would help here, also low side fuel pressure.

They are outside the cover. If I understand what I'm hearing from others, the injectors might be stuck open, over fueling those two cylinders and pushing fuel past the rings?  When on the back deck during the run to town, I could definitely smell unburnt diesel. 

My fear is that it's the pump leaking, but I'm making a $1k bet that the injectors being shipped from Ontario will get me fishing. I'm hoping it was the fuel from the remote fuel dock that precipitated the two injectors failing together. If not... The pump is not readily available through the AGCO dealer network at this time.

I'm already thinking about having to knock off early this year and do an inframe over the winter if I did real damage. 
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: KFhunter on July 19, 2019, 03:04:50 PM
That makes since, so I'd want to know where the debris came from.   If you have good filtration it should have been pulled out of the fuel before it hit the pump, if the pump is going out maybe debris came from the pump and stuck the injectors open. 

In any case that doesn't help your run back to town and seeing a mechanic.



I'd change injectors anyways if the pump went out, not too big of a gamble there.
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: 7mmfan on July 19, 2019, 03:07:35 PM
If you blow that engine up you'll have to up your KABOOM count to 2.
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: dyhardhuntr on July 19, 2019, 03:27:25 PM
If that is a common rail fuel system chances are the pump is lubricated with fuel and not oil. Common rail runs at such high psi it doesnít matter how long your lines are itís still going to get fuel into the combustion chamber. Washing a cylinder is a byproduct of that. You could have gotten dirty fuel but I would think water got in and not debris unless your pump is failing. Iím curious who the designer is(hopefully not Bosch and itís similar to the gm fuel system). If you had a cracked injector or a missing tip it could easily cause that amount of fuel. Although if you find a missing tip you will need to check the outlet of the turbo and pull the head anyway.


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Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: pup0025 on July 19, 2019, 03:28:48 PM
I would say pump.  If it was a common rail system I would guess injectors.  That p7100 is what's going to set the fuel timing and rate.  I'm guessing something went wrong in the pump and half the diesel that's meant for the injectors is making it into the pump body and Into the oil.  That's my guess. :twocents:
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: KFhunter on July 19, 2019, 04:44:38 PM
If that is a common rail fuel system chances are the pump is lubricated with fuel and not oil. Common rail runs at such high psi it doesnít matter how long your lines are itís still going to get fuel into the combustion chamber. Washing a cylinder is a byproduct of that. You could have gotten dirty fuel but I would think water got in and not debris unless your pump is failing. Iím curious who the designer is(hopefully not Bosch and itís similar to the gm fuel system). If you had a cracked injector or a missing tip it could easily cause that amount of fuel. Although if you find a missing tip you will need to check the outlet of the turbo and pull the head anyway.


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He said it was a Bosch p7100,  which is lubricated with engine oil and is't a common rail system. 
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Skillet on July 19, 2019, 07:17:00 PM
Roger, not common rail.

Based in part on some great input from knowledgeable folks here, I decided to bite the bullet, take off the pump, and send it down to Seattle for a speedy rebuild.  If this pans out, I have a huge thank you to give a certain member here for hooking it up.   He shall remain nameless at this point, however, for if I never see my pump again, I'll petition site ownership for his permanent banning  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Birdguy on July 19, 2019, 09:23:46 PM
 :tup: Best of luck with the fix and rebuild Skillet!! Know you cannot afford to be down to long so hope it all goes perfect! Another great thing about this forum for sure!!!
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: jackelope on July 19, 2019, 09:28:08 PM
Roger, not common rail.

Based in part on some great input from knowledgeable folks here, I decided to bite the bullet, take off the pump, and send it down to Seattle for a speedy rebuild.  If this pans out, I have a huge thank you to give a certain member here for hooking it up.   He shall remain nameless at this point, however, for if I never see my pump again, I'll petition site ownership for his permanent banning  :chuckle:

If you sent it to Seattle Injector, youíll be fine.
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: hollymaster on July 19, 2019, 10:02:08 PM
Roger, not common rail.

Based in part on some great input from knowledgeable folks here, I decided to bite the bullet, take off the pump, and send it down to Seattle for a speedy rebuild.  If this pans out, I have a huge thank you to give a certain member here for hooking it up.   He shall remain nameless at this point, however, for if I never see my pump again, I'll petition site ownership for his permanent banning  :chuckle:

If you sent it to Seattle Injector, youíll be fine.
:yeah: Had a super odd ball injector pump they were able to rebuild for me.  :tup:
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Alchase on July 20, 2019, 10:59:32 AM
This thread has been a cool read, learned a lot about Diesel engines that to be honest are alien to me.
Sorry it is at your expense Skillet, but thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Skillet on August 10, 2019, 10:08:06 AM
Got a few minutes while waiting for my unload appt, wanted to give a quick update:

I took the injection pump off and put it and the original set of injectors on a plane to SeaTac.  In the mean time I installed the New set of injectors.

The guys at Seattle Injector arranged for a courier to pick it up.  They jumped on it and got it turned around in an impressively short time, took it back to the airport for me and put it on the plane to Sitka.  Rick reported that it was actually an "A" pump, news to me.  He said the pump looked like it had normal wear for a 16k+ hour unit, but the rebuild was going to be warranted at about 20k hours, so I consider this a good investment in early maintenance and piece of mind. He did report, however, that two of my six injectors were stuck open, over fueling cyls #3 and #6.  We discussed the possibility of my washing down the cyl walls, and he said tho it would be better if I hadn't run it all that way in that condition, he thought I would be ok. Total bill was a little over $2200.  He could have charged double that and I would have happily paid it..  Down time is expensive.

 I met it at the airport, put a decent paint job on it and had it installed that night.  After a phone call the next morning and a bit of fiddling with the governor stop, it was running as good as it ever has.  Have put 200 hours on it since and has performed flawlessly.

Thanks to all of the Hunt Wa'ers who chimed in on this, the info was great.  And a special thanks, maybe a KaBoom even, goes to @woodchuck for his help, vast knowledge, and connections that helped me get turned around and back on the water as fast as I did.
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 10, 2019, 10:26:11 AM
H-W saves the day, again.

This thread has been a cool read, learned a lot about Diesel engines that to be honest are alien to me.
Sorry it is at your expense Skillet, but thanks for sharing!

:yeah:
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: 7mmfan on August 10, 2019, 11:01:02 AM
 :tup:
Title: Re: Diesel gurus, need advice
Post by: Woodchuck on August 14, 2019, 08:59:52 AM
Got a few minutes while waiting for my unload appt, wanted to give a quick update:

I took the injection pump off and put it and the original set of injectors on a plane to SeaTac.  In the mean time I installed the New set of injectors.

The guys at Seattle Injector arranged for a courier to pick it up.  They jumped on it and got it turned around in an impressively short time, took it back to the airport for me and put it on the plane to Sitka.  Rick reported that it was actually an "A" pump, news to me.  He said the pump looked like it had normal wear for a 16k+ hour unit, but the rebuild was going to be warranted at about 20k hours, so I consider this a good investment in early maintenance and piece of mind. He did report, however, that two of my six injectors were stuck open, over fueling cyls #3 and #6.  We discussed the possibility of my washing down the cyl walls, and he said tho it would be better if I hadn't run it all that way in that condition, he thought I would be ok. Total bill was a little over $2200.  He could have charged double that and I would have happily paid it..  Down time is expensive.

 I met it at the airport, put a decent paint job on it and had it installed that night.  After a phone call the next morning and a bit of fiddling with the governor stop, it was running as good as it ever has.  Have put 200 hours on it since and has performed flawlessly.

Thanks to all of the Hunt Wa'ers who chimed in on this, the info was great.  And a special thanks, maybe a KaBoom even, goes to @Woodchuck for his help, vast knowledge, and connections that helped me get turned around and back on the water as fast as I did.
I am just glad it worked out as well as it did, stay safe my friend.  :tup: