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Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: RG on December 01, 2019, 07:04:42 PM


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Title: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: RG on December 01, 2019, 07:04:42 PM
Now that it snowed WDFW needs to lock the Joe Watt Canyon gate before the rest of the elk up there get shot.  There are pickups and rigs cruising the roads all day picking off the elk.  The elk are coming down toward the feed station now.  Sitting ducks.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Hilltop123 on December 01, 2019, 07:09:04 PM
They won't. You damn well know why. Welcome to Washington.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Pinetar on December 01, 2019, 07:10:38 PM
Yep agree 100%. Lock up both Robinson and Joe Watt
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 01, 2019, 07:11:19 PM
Is it even open for late archery ?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Hilltop123 on December 01, 2019, 07:13:52 PM
They won't. You damn well know why. Welcome to Washington.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Pinetar on December 01, 2019, 07:14:25 PM
Is it even open for late archery ?

No sir
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 01, 2019, 07:16:15 PM
Gotcha
Slow on the uptake tonight
Understand why
Yes
Lock it
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 01, 2019, 07:17:14 PM
Lets see pictures to prove evidence of this happening.

Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jstone on December 01, 2019, 07:19:08 PM
Yep this stuff needs to be documented. 
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Hilltop123 on December 01, 2019, 07:20:09 PM
They won't. You damn well know why. Welcome to Washington.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: kirkl on December 01, 2019, 07:22:25 PM
They were up on clemans couple weekends ago. Gut pile right beside the green dot. And no I don’t have a friggin picture, I have eyes, gut pile, Yakima nation plates with blood on tail gate 200 yards down road if proof enough.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 01, 2019, 07:26:11 PM
If it's not documented via picture or video, nothing is going to help support bashing the tribe(s).

There's a few young guys who've I talked to that have killed a dozen deer this year, but all have gone to feed their family which is their right.


I personally helped a older Yakama tribal member load an elk into his truck last weekend and have no regrets doing that as it was the right thing to do :twocents:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 01, 2019, 07:37:23 PM
Personally
The decline of our fish and game in this state
Makes me wonder why the treaty rights aren’t renegotiated
Casinos and associated $$$ should offset the need to kill a dozen deer or elk to feed the family
Commercial gooeyducks and crab harvests are unbelievable on the west side as well
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: lewy on December 01, 2019, 07:38:43 PM
If you need to kill a dozen deer to “feed” your family you have failed at a lot of things in life and probably shouldn’t be spreading your spawn
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: kirkl on December 01, 2019, 07:40:53 PM
If it's not documented via picture or video, nothing is going to help support bashing the tribe(s).

There's a few young guys who've I talked to that have killed a dozen deer this year, but all have gone to feed their family which is their right.


I personally helped a older Yakama tribal member load an elk into his truck last weekend and have no regrets doing that as it was the right thing to do :twocents:
Pictures of them eating them at the dinner table? We need pics.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: RG on December 01, 2019, 07:43:07 PM
I spend a lot of time up there horseback, and on the roads.   For the past two weeks I’ve seen rig after rig cruising up and down Hutchins Rd and Watt Canyon Rd. Today there were even more.  I see who is in the rigs as well. I understand there is a legal hunt going on but I also understand that these elk come out of the backcountry at the first decent snow and stage up on Hutchins toward Tamarack Springs and that whole upper area which is criss crossed with roads.  This is my back yard and I know what’s going on. No I don’t follow them around trying to take a picture.  The winter herd numbers were down last winter, per both bios who work this area. I’d like to see the gate locked because there are going to be a lot of elk standing near roads now.  It’s time. 
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 01, 2019, 07:44:05 PM
It’s BS and we all know it
Someone turn the lights out when the last ones are killed
Next it’ll be whales 
 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: RG on December 01, 2019, 07:53:00 PM
Or hey, here’s an idea, make it spike only for everybody without a special permit.  What’s good enough for the goose ought to be good enough for the gander it seems to me.  Oh, I forgot, Washington wildlife management theory is management by special interests with the deepest pockets or the best attorneys and lobbyists.  We don’t let the biologists that we hire to be the scientists, trained experts, make policy decisions because they are neutral and unbiased.  That doesn’t work here.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 01, 2019, 08:08:56 PM
Someone with a 10 yd dump should "loose" a load of 4 man rock in a narrow spot... :twocents:

Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 01, 2019, 08:50:29 PM
I don't know,Maybe some are bashing on the wrong user group.The tribes do a lot for the game in WA.No matter what most people think.they have the right,they were given that right by people that are not even alive any more and those rights are not gonna go anywhere while we that are alive still live period.

THIS GOES HAND IN HAND WITH THE POST THAT JACKELOPE PUT UP THIS MORNING.IT DOES NO ONE ANY GOOD.   :twocents:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 02, 2019, 05:07:03 AM
They might have the right but they don't have to abuse the right and maybe they should consider what is RIGHT for the future of Game animals
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: kball4 on December 02, 2019, 07:15:41 AM
Sanford Pasture is close on 410 but open up on top.  Made the drive 45 minutes longer.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 07:54:11 AM
They might have the right but they don't have to abuse the right and maybe they should consider what is RIGHT for the future of Game animals
think before you type. yall may have the right to bare arms but that dont mean you need to abuse that right by poaching.

how do you like it when it gets turned around on ya?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: elkaholic123 on December 02, 2019, 08:04:17 AM
They might have the right but they don't have to abuse the right and maybe they should consider what is RIGHT for the future of Game animals
think before you type. yall may have the right to bare arms but that dont mean you need to abuse that right by poaching.

how do you like it when it gets turned around on ya?
Pictures of this poaching?  :dunno:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 08:15:07 AM
Exactly  :yeah: GOES BOTH WAYS.  :bash:

Hunters that don't fill their tags have got to have an excuse.Must be someone else's fault not their own.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 08:54:41 AM
If you need to kill a dozen deer to “feed” your family you have failed at a lot of things in life and probably shouldn’t be spreading your spawn
"family" The way you say this makes readers think you know how many there are in a "family" Do you?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: dvolmer on December 02, 2019, 09:06:31 AM
The Jerky business is going full bore!!!!  Need elk!!!  Lots of Elk!!!!!!
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 02, 2019, 09:15:06 AM
If you need to kill a dozen deer to “feed” your family you have failed at a lot of things in life and probably shouldn’t be spreading your spawn
"family" The way you say this makes readers think you know how many there are in a "family" Do you?
When supporting 5 different households, 12 deer is reasonable.

There are some people on this forum who shoot 6+ deer a year and an elk or two in the west. How is that any different?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 09:30:08 AM
 :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: boneaddict on December 02, 2019, 09:41:26 AM
Quote
Hunters that don't fill their tags have got to have an excuse.Must be someone else's fault not their own.

I chose not to shoot a deer or an elk this year because I think the herd could use a break. I am concerned with the future of the herd and feel its hypocritical to take more than I need.  Its well within my right, I bought tags.   Are you saying I dont have the skills to kill something?  I really dont see anything wrong with his statement.

Quote
They might have the right but they don't have to abuse the right and maybe they should consider what is RIGHT for the future of Game animals

Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 02, 2019, 09:44:25 AM
If you need to kill a dozen deer to “feed” your family you have failed at a lot of things in life and probably shouldn’t be spreading your spawn
"family" The way you say this makes readers think you know how many there are in a "family" Do you?
When supporting 5 different households, 12 deer is reasonable.

There are some people on this forum who shoot 6+ deer a year and an elk or two in the west. How is that any different?
Taking one deer in multiple states is definitely very different than taking multiple deer from the same herd.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: hunter399 on December 02, 2019, 10:06:36 AM
Never been there.
But this topic hits every year.
Maybe they should wipe out all the roads ,just completely wipe them out.Better for the elk,then if you wanna hunt it,you walk your lazy @$$ in native or white,or other.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: ballpark on December 02, 2019, 10:18:22 AM
Son and I were over late archery in 342. Mud Lake entrance off 410 is gated, private property - Garrett Canyon road gate locked (early) - only entrance was up 1701 gate still open down into said area.  Those that know the area know it's a winter area for elk.  If rifles get down there before they lock the 1701 gate it would not be good.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 02, 2019, 10:27:17 AM
They might have the right but they don't have to abuse the right and maybe they should consider what is RIGHT for the future of Game animals
think before you type. yall may have the right to bare arms but that dont mean you need to abuse that right by poaching.

how do you like it when it gets turned around on ya?

Oh Mah I dont think you got your point across. I'm scratching my head a bit
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: cb1989 on December 02, 2019, 10:41:29 AM
Maybe they should wipe out all the roads ,just completely wipe them out.Better for the elk,then if you wanna hunt it,you walk your lazy @$$ in native or white,or other.

Amen. No road access = no poaching and no road hunting. Imagine the complaining then. Makes me tired just thinking about how worked up people would get if they had to earn their meat with their boots.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 02, 2019, 10:44:18 AM
Son and I were over late archery in 342. Mud Lake entrance off 410 is gated, private property - Garrett Canyon road gate locked (early) - only entrance was up 1701 gate still open down into said area.  Those that know the area know it's a winter area for elk.  If rifles get down there before they lock the 1701 gate it would not be good.
Garrett has been completely washed out and closed for years fyi
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: ballpark on December 02, 2019, 10:50:06 AM
Son and I were over late archery in 342. Mud Lake entrance off 410 is gated, private property - Garrett Canyon road gate locked (early) - only entrance was up 1701 gate still open down into said area.  Those that know the area know it's a winter area for elk.  If rifles get down there before they lock the 1701 gate it would not be good.
Garrett has been completely washed out and closed for years fyi
Good to know.  It has been years since we were both up there.  I will say it's definitely better for the game in there. :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 02, 2019, 10:53:27 AM
Son and I were over late archery in 342. Mud Lake entrance off 410 is gated, private property - Garrett Canyon road gate locked (early) - only entrance was up 1701 gate still open down into said area.  Those that know the area know it's a winter area for elk.  If rifles get down there before they lock the 1701 gate it would not be good.
Garrett has been completely washed out and closed for years fyi
Good to know.  It has been years since we were both up there.  I will say it's definitely better for the game in there. :tup:
yeah I'm not sad about that aspect at all! I hike it often to keep my mountain legs and it always amazes me how mother nature reclaims things
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: HntnFsh on December 02, 2019, 11:58:59 AM
Maybe they should wipe out all the roads ,just completely wipe them out.Better for the elk,then if you wanna hunt it,you walk your lazy @$$ in native or white,or other.

Amen. No road access = no poaching and no road hunting. Imagine the complaining then. Makes me tired just thinking about how worked up people would get if they had to earn their meat with their boots.

Ya, no kidding.  To hell with those too old or disabled to hike in. Leave it to those that can! Just remember you may be on that boat some day!
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Taco280AI on December 02, 2019, 12:05:41 PM
Between tribes slaughtering elk all year long, poachers, overpopulated cats, and now wolves, won't be too long till there is no more elk hunting in Washington.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 02, 2019, 12:11:15 PM
How many of you guys who hunt that area and are pointing at tribal members, refused to use your elk and deer tags this year to help the elk and deer? Bueler, Bueler?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 02, 2019, 12:13:55 PM
How many of you guys who hunt that area and are pointing at tribal members, refused to use your elk and deer tags this year to help the elk and deer? Bueler, Bueler?
:hello:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 12:17:44 PM
Quote
Hunters that don't fill their tags have got to have an excuse.Must be someone else's fault not their own.

I chose not to shoot a deer or an elk this year because I think the herd could use a break. I am concerned with the future of the herd and feel its hypocritical to take more than I need.  Its well within my right, I bought tags.   Are you saying I dont have the skills to kill something?  I really dont see anything wrong with his statement.

Quote
They might have the right but they don't have to abuse the right and maybe they should consider what is RIGHT for the future of Game animals
You know what?I also don't see you whining about not filling your tag because of the natives.Don't try to MSM my statement.I never said anywhere here or anywhere else that you don't have a right to do anything.

IF YOU DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH PLACING THE BLAME OF THE HERD ON TRIBAL THEN I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU.

ALL RACES OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO ABUSE THEIR RIGHTS WHEN IT COMES TO HUNTING.POACHERS COME IN ALL COLORS.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 12:19:15 PM
If you need to kill a dozen deer to “feed” your family you have failed at a lot of things in life and probably shouldn’t be spreading your spawn
"family" The way you say this makes readers think you know how many there are in a "family" Do you?
When supporting 5 different households, 12 deer is reasonable.

There are some people on this forum who shoot 6+ deer a year and an elk or two in the west. How is that any different?
Taking one deer in multiple states is definitely very different than taking multiple deer from the same herd.  :twocents:
What if several people go to these other states and take multiple deer/elk from these other herds?I guess it's same same then.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 12:20:59 PM
They might have the right but they don't have to abuse the right and maybe they should consider what is RIGHT for the future of Game animals
think before you type. yall may have the right to bare arms but that dont mean you need to abuse that right by poaching.

how do you like it when it gets turned around on ya?

Oh Mah I dont think you got your point across. I'm scratching my head a bit
Sarcasm to show what some natives feel about our 2nd amendment and white poachers.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 12:22:35 PM
Maybe they should wipe out all the roads ,just completely wipe them out.Better for the elk,then if you wanna hunt it,you walk your lazy @$$ in native or white,or other.

Amen. No road access = no poaching and no road hunting. Imagine the complaining then. Makes me tired just thinking about how worked up people would get if they had to earn their meat with their boots.

Ya, no kidding.  To hell with those too old or disabled to hike in. Leave it to those that can! Just remember you may be on that boat some day!
   :yeah:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 12:32:22 PM
It's not apples and oranges its the same and you know it but wont admit it.

I BET NON NATIVE PEOPLE COULDN'T PUT 10 PHOTOS TOGETHER IN A YEAR OF DIFFERENT NATIVE OWNED VEHICLES UP TAKING ELK (ELK IN THE TRUCK)

Where did your post go BullBlaster?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 02, 2019, 12:37:37 PM
It's not apples and oranges its the same and you know it but wont admit it.

I BET NON NATIVE PEOPLE COULDN'T PUT 10 PHOTOS TOGETHER IN A YEAR OF DIFFERENT NATIVE OWNED VEHICLES UP TAKING ELK (ELK IN THE TRUCK)

Where did your post go BullBlaster?
I deleted it. I decided you aren’t worth my time or effort.

#makehuntwagreatagain
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 12:39:47 PM
So then you reply to my post.  :o
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 12:40:10 PM
If you need to kill a dozen deer to “feed” your family you have failed at a lot of things in life and probably shouldn’t be spreading your spawn
"family" The way you say this makes readers think you know how many there are in a "family" Do you?
When supporting 5 different households, 12 deer is reasonable.

There are some people on this forum who shoot 6+ deer a year and an elk or two in the west. How is that any different?

This is a comparison straight out of left field.
:twocents:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
I don't know,Maybe some are bashing on the wrong user group.The tribes do a lot for the game in WA.No matter what most people think.they have the right,they were given that right by people that are not even alive any more and those rights are not gonna go anywhere while we that are alive still live period.

THIS GOES HAND IN HAND WITH THE POST THAT JACKELOPE PUT UP THIS MORNING.IT DOES NO ONE ANY GOOD.   :twocents:
The user group is blatantly obvious. There's no confusion, mistakes, etc.

Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 12:43:57 PM
How so?I completely agree with his post.If 100 people go to other states in the west(there is surely more then that)and take multiple deer/elk it would cause the same problem for the other hunters that are in those areas.

THAT WOULD BE WHY THESE OTHER AREAS COMPLAIN ABOUT OUT OF STATE HUNTERS.We had a thread on this last year.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 12:44:56 PM
I don't know,Maybe some are bashing on the wrong user group.The tribes do a lot for the game in WA.No matter what most people think.they have the right,they were given that right by people that are not even alive any more and those rights are not gonna go anywhere while we that are alive still live period.

THIS GOES HAND IN HAND WITH THE POST THAT JACKELOPE PUT UP THIS MORNING.IT DOES NO ONE ANY GOOD.   :twocents:
The user group is blatantly obvious. There's no confusion, mistakes, etc.
Are you saying that tribal hunters are poaching?Causing the decline in our herds?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 12:56:58 PM
I don't know,Maybe some are bashing on the wrong user group.The tribes do a lot for the game in WA.No matter what most people think.they have the right,they were given that right by people that are not even alive any more and those rights are not gonna go anywhere while we that are alive still live period.

THIS GOES HAND IN HAND WITH THE POST THAT JACKELOPE PUT UP THIS MORNING.IT DOES NO ONE ANY GOOD.   :twocents:
The user group is blatantly obvious. There's no confusion, mistakes, etc.
Are you saying that tribal hunters are poaching?Causing the decline in our herds?

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying any of that and I'm not sure where you'd even come up with that idea. In regards to your comment "Maybe some are bashing on the wrong user group," it seems like you're maybe not sure who everyone is talking about in this thread, and that didn't make sense to me. Everyone knows who this thread and the elk slaughter up Joe Watt is referring to. Just because someone can do something, doesn't mean it's right, and also unfortunately doesn't mean they'll utilize the rights they have responsibly.

 
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 01:03:33 PM
I don't know,Maybe some are bashing on the wrong user group.The tribes do a lot for the game in WA.No matter what most people think.they have the right,they were given that right by people that are not even alive any more and those rights are not gonna go anywhere while we that are alive still live period.

THIS GOES HAND IN HAND WITH THE POST THAT JACKELOPE PUT UP THIS MORNING.IT DOES NO ONE ANY GOOD.   :twocents:
The user group is blatantly obvious. There's no confusion, mistakes, etc.
Are you saying that tribal hunters are poaching?Causing the decline in our herds?

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying any of that and I'm not sure where you'd even come up with that idea. In regards to your comment "Maybe some are bashing on the wrong user group," it seems like you're maybe not sure who everyone is talking about in this thread, and that didn't make sense to me. Everyone knows who this thread and the elk slaughter up Joe Watt is referring to. Just because someone can do something, doesn't mean it's right, and also unfortunately doesn't mean they'll utilize the rights they have responsibly.
no offense but i know exactly what user group is being bashed on here.and you just confirmed where you stand on this issue.everybody always saying the same thing.

now i said it earlier in this thread,Lets see 10 photos of 10 different native owned rigs hauling elk out.from any 1 camera.with all the blame going around this should be easy.  :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Whitefoot on December 02, 2019, 01:08:23 PM
SMH
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idahohuntr on December 02, 2019, 01:15:08 PM
Maybe they should wipe out all the roads ,just completely wipe them out.Better for the elk,then if you wanna hunt it,you walk your lazy @$$ in native or white,or other.

Amen. No road access = no poaching and no road hunting. Imagine the complaining then. Makes me tired just thinking about how worked up people would get if they had to earn their meat with their boots.

Ya, no kidding.  To hell with those too old or disabled to hike in. Leave it to those that can! Just remember you may be on that boat some day!
Ehh...I've never been much of a socialist...so I'm fine with some areas not having roads and access that caterers to the least physically capable among us.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: dvolmer on December 02, 2019, 01:16:57 PM
SMH

Jerky!!  Jerky!!!  I need more elk!!!  More Jerky!!!!!  Cant kill fast enough to meet demand!!!!  5-10 more years,  I'm out of business!!!  Elk all gone!!!!!
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Whitefoot on December 02, 2019, 01:18:22 PM
Tell me how you really feel?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: dvolmer on December 02, 2019, 01:20:37 PM
Tell me how you really feel?

There ain't nottin more to say!!!  Watch my YouTube video and see how I can cut up an entire elk in 3 minutes!!!  Its amazing how good at it you can become when you are butchering 50 plus a year!!! :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Whitefoot on December 02, 2019, 01:22:03 PM
What's your youtube David an I will look it up.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Odell on December 02, 2019, 01:22:10 PM
"Doing what you want, to benefit yourself just because you can..."

I'll take the definition of unethical for $500 Alex.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: bobcat on December 02, 2019, 01:23:37 PM
Oh Mah- you don't have a problem with Yakama tribe members running a business of selling elk meat? (jerky)

If I understand correctly, this is actually against tribal law, but apparently it's one of those laws that's not enforced.

Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: dvolmer on December 02, 2019, 01:26:57 PM
Oh Mah- you don't have a problem with Yakama tribe members running a business of selling elk meat? (jerky)

If I understand correctly, this is actually against tribal law, but apparently it's one of those laws that's not enforced.

I don't think there are many tribal laws that are enforced.  They are taken as guidelines.  Its just about laughable if it wasn't so devastating.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 01:27:49 PM
I agree that it happens  :yeah: but how often and by how many is what matters.ALL NATIVES DO NOT DO THIS AND I DON'T SEE THAT SAID ENOUGH.Its like a biggie topic,lots of talk but never any proof.

IS EVERYONE SAYING THAT WE HAVE WINTER KILL PROBLEMS,HOOF ROT PROBLEMS,NOT ENOUGH RANGE PROBLEMS,POACHING PROBLEMS,OR IS IT ALL TRIBAL?

The stories i have been reading lately are of bulls with heads cut off and body left to rot.Now i make jerky with deer/elk and bear but i have never used the head for it.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 01:29:58 PM
Oh Mah- you don't have a problem with Yakama tribe members running a business of selling elk meat? (jerky)

If I understand correctly, this is actually against tribal law, but apparently it's one of those laws that's not enforced.
It is not against the law for tribal to sell jewelry,salmon and eggs or jerky  :tup:

since i know its coming.
UNITED STATES VS WINANS,198 U.S.371,S.CT.662, 49 L.ED. 2ND 1089 (1905)
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 01:56:06 PM
I don't know,Maybe some are bashing on the wrong user group.The tribes do a lot for the game in WA.No matter what most people think.they have the right,they were given that right by people that are not even alive any more and those rights are not gonna go anywhere while we that are alive still live period.

THIS GOES HAND IN HAND WITH THE POST THAT JACKELOPE PUT UP THIS MORNING.IT DOES NO ONE ANY GOOD.   :twocents:
The user group is blatantly obvious. There's no confusion, mistakes, etc.
Are you saying that tribal hunters are poaching?Causing the decline in our herds?

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying any of that and I'm not sure where you'd even come up with that idea. In regards to your comment "Maybe some are bashing on the wrong user group," it seems like you're maybe not sure who everyone is talking about in this thread, and that didn't make sense to me. Everyone knows who this thread and the elk slaughter up Joe Watt is referring to. Just because someone can do something, doesn't mean it's right, and also unfortunately doesn't mean they'll utilize the rights they have responsibly.
no offense but i know exactly what user group is being bashed on here.and you just confirmed where you stand on this issue.everybody always saying the same thing.

now i said it earlier in this thread,Lets see 10 photos of 10 different native owned rigs hauling elk out.from any 1 camera.with all the blame going around this should be easy.  :tup:

I'm not trying to hide any of it either. I have a huge dislike for the tribal members who abuse their rights. Guys who are killing dozens of elk per year to fund a jerky business for example. Hopefully you're not going to try and tell me that doesn't happen.
And for the record, I have a load of respect for the tribal members who do what they can within their rights and don't abuse those rights. Fill your freezers, feed your families, hunt for a funeral, whatever...but for those abusing your rights who have absolutely zero consideration for the herds and conservation on a long term basis, shame on you.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 01:59:24 PM
I agree that it happens  :yeah: but how often and by how many is what matters.ALL NATIVES DO NOT DO THIS AND I DON'T SEE THAT SAID ENOUGH.Its like a biggie topic,lots of talk but never any proof.

IS EVERYONE SAYING THAT WE HAVE WINTER KILL PROBLEMS,HOOF ROT PROBLEMS,NOT ENOUGH RANGE PROBLEMS,POACHING PROBLEMS,OR IS IT ALL TRIBAL?

The stories i have been reading lately are of bulls with heads cut off and body left to rot.Now i make jerky with deer/elk and bear but i have never used the head for it.

NOBODY IS SAYING ANYTHING THAT YOU'RE INSINUATING.
Literally nobody is saying "all natives" anything. There are poaching issues for sure. Winter kill, predators, hoof rot...probably our biggest problems, but the abuse of tribal rights is something that could be relatively easily remedied, yet nobody is willing to do anything to solve the problems. It's unfortunate.

 
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 02:00:20 PM
"Doing what you want, to benefit yourself just because you can..."

I'll take the definition of unethical for $500 Alex.

THIS!!!
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 02:00:58 PM
No i wont say selling jerky doesn't happen,That also is their right.They have been bartering with the non natives since non natives landed in America.

HOW DO YOU THINK THEY GOT THINGS OTHER THAN MEAT?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 02:04:41 PM
Unethical would be not caring for your grandparents and fatherless families etc.People want to forget that tribal members don't take several deer and elk to their own homes for themselves they do hunt for the elders and such also.

As for selling the meat,So what they have always done it and always will.How many of you business owners on here hire tribal members anyway?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 02, 2019, 02:12:59 PM
No i wont say selling jerky doesn't happen,That also is their right.They have been bartering with the non natives since non natives landed in America.

HOW DO YOU THINK THEY GOT THINGS OTHER THAN MEAT?


Casinos :bash:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 02:14:35 PM
casinos  :chuckle: hate to break it to you but casinos were not around when these treaty rights were written up and agreed upon.  :bash:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 02:21:00 PM
https://www.ynwildlife.org/tribalhunting.php

Quote
Introduction

The following guidelines are designed to help inform Yakama Tribal Members and the General Public on the Hunting Rights of Yakamas and to help alleviate any confusion about these rights. These only highlight some of the laws, and are not meant to replace the existing law and order codes regarding these activities that more fully define the tribal laws regarding hunting. These can be obtained by contacting the YN Wildlife Program.

Members of the Yakama Nation hunt throughout their ancestral lands in Washington State for the purpose of gathering meat for sustenance and ceremonial purposes. It is not the custom of tribal people to hunt or gather food for sport or leisure, but is instead a traditional and cultural activity that is needed to provide food for funerals, memorials, name givings, food feasts, and family dinners. On the reservation and ceded areas, these laws and rights override the jurisdiction of the Washington State Department of Fish & Wildlife.

Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 02:22:30 PM
Unethical would be not caring for your grandparents and fatherless families etc.People want to forget that tribal members don't take several deer and elk to their own homes for themselves they do hunt for the elders and such also.

As for selling the meat,So what they have always done it and always will.How many of you business owners on here hire tribal members anyway?

https://secure.ynwildlife.org/pdf/wildlifecode2005.pdf

Page 12. Section A.


Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 02:27:12 PM
COMMERCIAL.

A yard sale is not commercial.

a lemonade stand is not commercial

a van selling fruit on the side of the hi-way is not commercial.

a native selling salmon and beef jerky is not commercial.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: CoryTDF on December 02, 2019, 02:32:27 PM
COMMERCIAL.

A yard sale is not commercial.

a lemonade stand is not commercial

a van selling fruit on the side of the hi-way is not commercial.

a native selling salmon and beef jerky is not commercial.

Must be a pretty sharp knife you have there cause it can split the hell out of some hairs.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 02:35:33 PM
so does part b of that same page.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 02:36:32 PM
and part c
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 03:29:14 PM
I agree that it happens  :yeah: but how often and by how many is what matters.ALL NATIVES DO NOT DO THIS AND I DON'T SEE THAT SAID ENOUGH.Its like a biggie topic,lots of talk but never any proof.

IS EVERYONE SAYING THAT WE HAVE WINTER KILL PROBLEMS,HOOF ROT PROBLEMS,NOT ENOUGH RANGE PROBLEMS,POACHING PROBLEMS,OR IS IT ALL TRIBAL?

The stories i have been reading lately are of bulls with heads cut off and body left to rot.Now i make jerky with deer/elk and bear but i have never used the head for it.

NOBODY IS SAYING ANYTHING THAT YOU'RE INSINUATING.
Literally nobody is saying "all natives" anything. There are poaching issues for sure. Winter kill, predators, hoof rot...probably our biggest problems, but the abuse of tribal rights is something that could be relatively easily remedied, yet nobody is willing to do anything to solve the problems. It's unfortunate.
REALLY  :bash: all but a few HW members in this thread are doing exactly what i am talking about.Just because they are not saying all does not mean that is not what is being implied.This entire thread is a native bashing thread.other threads are DFW bashing threads.then there are the atv owners bashing threads etc.BUT THIS ONE IS 100% NATIVE BASHING.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 02, 2019, 03:31:05 PM
I wish I had Oh Mah's confidence  :tup: get em Tiger.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 03:41:06 PM
so does part b of that same page.


Part B specifies 2 tribes it's legal for the Yakamas to sell to. That's all near as I can tell.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 03:42:36 PM
and part c

Part C specifies non-edibles legal or illegal to sell. That's all near as I can tell.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 03:45:27 PM
Well since that's who everyone in this thread is talking about right now i would say it matters.Most of this thread has been full of fake news.If everyone knew the laws before the accusations flew it would be a lot better for everyone.  :twocents: Like i said they have the right and have for a very long time.We don't want other people to start claiming that us trappers are taking more than a fair share of beaver or bobcats or whatever now do we?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 02, 2019, 03:55:31 PM
T
If everyone knew the laws before the accusations flew it would be a lot better for everyone.  :twocents:

Maybe so but it is unlikely that many people are going to get on board with your definitions: trade, barter, commercial, prohibited etc.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: coachcw on December 02, 2019, 04:23:02 PM
I saw two rigs driving around tanneum this weekend right during late archery , no wonder why you don't see even a doe hardly . you don't need documents just go read the book at the firing center, its very obvious that a couple guys do most of the harvest . work at the casino and sell jerky sounds like a great plan.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: full choke on December 02, 2019, 04:34:10 PM
I love the ignore button!  :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 04:34:19 PM
COMMERCIAL.

A yard sale is not commercial.

a lemonade stand is not commercial

a van selling fruit on the side of the hi-way is not commercial.

a native selling salmon and beef jerky is not commercial.

I'll call it abuse of rights, legal or not. You can call it whatever you want. Non-commercial, whatever. Go to the firing range and read the log books. You'll be enlightened.
Actually you probably won't.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 04:41:20 PM
I've spent lots of time on the firing center and i can guarantee you that if it wasn't legal per the treaty they would not be letting them on the firing center.

YOU CAN SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT,IF I DON'T AGREE I WILL SAY WHAT I WANT.  :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: bobcat on December 02, 2019, 04:45:05 PM
Killing unlimited and unknown numbers of deer and elk IS legal (for the Yakamas). And, THAT is the problem. Our government needs to look into what was truly meant by the phrase "in common with."
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 04:46:18 PM
Killing unlimited and unknown numbers of deer and elk IS legal. And, THAT is the problem. Our government needs to look into what was truly meant by the phrase "in common with."
yeah but it's not unlimited,that is the thing.  :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 04:46:33 PM
I've spent lots of time on the firing center and i can guarantee you that if it wasn't legal per the treaty they would not be letting them on the firing center.

YOU CAN SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT,IF I DON'T AGREE I WILL SAY WHAT I WANT.  :tup:

I'm not talking legal. I'm talking splitting hairs and/or abusing rights. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

It's illegal for Yakama tribal members to commercially sell wild game meat but it's not illegal for them to advertise on social media jerky and smoked salmon and sell it to dozens of people. This is what I've learned from this thread.

Killing unlimited and unknown numbers of deer and elk IS legal (for the Yakamas). And, THAT is the problem. Our government needs to look into what was truly meant by the phrase "in common with."

Correct.

Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 04:47:00 PM
Killing unlimited and unknown numbers of deer and elk IS legal. And, THAT is the problem. Our government needs to look into what was truly meant by the phrase "in common with."
yeah but it's not unlimited,that is the thing.  :tup:

They have limits? Please provide the source of your information.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 04:47:34 PM
you provided it in an earlier post  :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: boneaddict on December 02, 2019, 04:48:09 PM
And we have come full circle.....Gate the road, its the only way to stop it legally.   


If you really want to get their attention, give the Mucks a key.   

Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 04:48:52 PM
https://www.ynwildlife.org/tribalhunting.php

Quote
Introduction

The following guidelines are designed to help inform Yakama Tribal Members and the General Public on the Hunting Rights of Yakamas and to help alleviate any confusion about these rights. These only highlight some of the laws, and are not meant to replace the existing law and order codes regarding these activities that more fully define the tribal laws regarding hunting. These can be obtained by contacting the YN Wildlife Program.

Members of the Yakama Nation hunt throughout their ancestral lands in Washington State for the purpose of gathering meat for sustenance and ceremonial purposes. It is not the custom of tribal people to hunt or gather food for sport or leisure, but is instead a traditional and cultural activity that is needed to provide food for funerals, memorials, name givings, food feasts, and family dinners. On the reservation and ceded areas, these laws and rights override the jurisdiction of the Washington State Department of Fish & Wildlife.
here
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 04:50:00 PM
also if the tribe did put together something to show what harvests were most on here would deny the results.  :tup:

FACT

JUST AS THEY DO THE WDFW RESULTS
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 04:56:28 PM
https://www.ynwildlife.org/tribalhunting.php

Quote
Introduction

The following guidelines are designed to help inform Yakama Tribal Members and the General Public on the Hunting Rights of Yakamas and to help alleviate any confusion about these rights. These only highlight some of the laws, and are not meant to replace the existing law and order codes regarding these activities that more fully define the tribal laws regarding hunting. These can be obtained by contacting the YN Wildlife Program.

Members of the Yakama Nation hunt throughout their ancestral lands in Washington State for the purpose of gathering meat for sustenance and ceremonial purposes. It is not the custom of tribal people to hunt or gather food for sport or leisure, but is instead a traditional and cultural activity that is needed to provide food for funerals, memorials, name givings, food feasts, and family dinners. On the reservation and ceded areas, these laws and rights override the jurisdiction of the Washington State Department of Fish & Wildlife.
here


No limits posted there. Unless you mean hunting the cows and does over winter. They can still shoot all the bucks and bulls they want.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 04:56:58 PM
also if the tribe did put together something to show what harvests were most on here would deny the results.  :tup:

FACT

JUST AS THEY DO THE WDFW RESULTS

We've begged for them to do that. I would applaud it.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 04:57:54 PM
HUNTING INFORMATION FOR TRIBAL MEMBERS
 

Ceded Area, Click To Enlarge

Information for the Yakama Reservation and Ceded Areas
Introduction

The following guidelines are designed to help inform Yakama Tribal Members and the General Public on the Hunting Rights of Yakamas and to help alleviate any confusion about these rights. These only highlight some of the laws, and are not meant to replace the existing law and order codes regarding these activities that more fully define the tribal laws regarding hunting. These can be obtained by contacting the YN Wildlife Program.

Members of the Yakama Nation hunt throughout their ancestral lands in Washington State for the purpose of gathering meat for sustenance and ceremonial purposes. It is not the custom of tribal people to hunt or gather food for sport or leisure, but is instead a traditional and cultural activity that is needed to provide food for funerals, memorials, name givings, food feasts, and family dinners. On the reservation and ceded areas, these laws and rights override the jurisdiction of the Washington State Department of Fish & Wildlife.

Yakama Nation Reservation

Within the 1.2 million acre reservation of the Yakama Nation, enrolled members can hunt within and outside of the closed area with the following restrictions:

*No hunting of female deer and elk from Jan. 1�Aug. 31 (except with Special Permit). When in the field, heads or genitals must remain attached to the animals during this period as proof of sex.

*No hunting 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise.

*No hunting of mountain goat, bighorn sheep, pronghorn antelope (except with Special Permit).

*No hunting of bald eagles or other protected animals (as defined by Tribal Council).

*No wasting of game meat normally used for human consumption.

*No hunting at night with the use of artificial lighting, no hunting from the air or from snow vehicles or ATV, no hunting using dogs, no hunting using a rifle less than 24 caliber for elk, and no use of toxic materials or bait.

*You must have permission to hunt private lands on the Reservation.

Other restrictions can be found in the Revised Yakama Nation Wildlife Code, Title XXXII.

Hunting is prohibited to all people in the Upper Toppenish Creek Wildlife Reserve (Tribal Game Refuge) and the Lower Toppenish Creek Wildlife Reserves. Within these refuges, it is a gross misdemeanor to hunt, carry firearms, or otherwise harass wildlife within the refuge boundaries. Ceremonial hunting can be done with a Special Permit.

Nowhere on the reservation are there any restrictions to the gathering of food and medicine by tribal members.

Ceded Area and Usual and Accustomed Areas(off-Reservation)

The Yakama Nation�s ceded area encompasses 12 million acres, covering nine separate counties in eastern Washington State. Usual and accustomed areas extends across the entire Pacific Northwest.

Any enrolled member of the Yakama Nation has the right to hunt, fish, and gather other food, medicine, or ceremonial supplies in open and unclaimed lands within the ceded area. One restriction is the taking of female deer or elk from Jan.1 through August 31. Any tribal member wishing to hunt female deer or elk for ceremonial purposes during this time can obtain a Special Permit. Enrolled tribal members hunting in the ceded areas must carry their enrollment card and other I.D., for game enforcement officers. Unclaimed lands include Federal, State, and other government land, and does not include private land, refuges (such as feeding stations), and safety game zones. Within the ceded areas, there are winter wildlife sanctuaries where seasonal restrictions do apply, except with a Special Permit:

*Winter Feeding Areas (no hunting Dec. 15�March 31)

*Includes Oak Creek Feeding Area, Clover Springs Feeding Area, and Cleman Mountain Feeding Area.)

*Winter Wildlife Sanctuary (no hunting Dec. 31�March 31)

*Sanford Pasture Winter Range.

Special Permit

If you are an enrolled member of the Yakama Nation, you may obtain a Special Permit to hunt for ceremonial purposes in restricted areas or at restricted times. Please contact the Yakama Nation Wildlife, Range, & Vegetation Resources Management Program for information or a permit application.

For printable pamphlet and maps:

*Toppenish Creek Reserves pdf version

*Winter Wildlife Sanctuaries pdf version













Wildlife, Range & Vegetation Resources Management Program, P.O. Box 151 (4690 S.R. 22),
Toppenish, WA 98948 Ph: (509) 865-5121 | F: (509) 865-3619 | E-mail: ynwildlife@yakama.com   
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 04:59:06 PM
Isn't that a limit?Can't hunt on certain lands without a special permit? isn't that a limit as well?no hunting the feeding stations without special permit?come on now there are limits.


IF WE GOT IT PEOPLE WOULD DENY THE RESULTS.AM I WRONG?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 02, 2019, 05:00:08 PM
And we have come full circle.....Gate the road, its the only way to stop it legally.   


If you really want to get their attention, give the Mucks a key.

And take away the ice beer, 4x4 trucks and high power rifles and hunt like the ancestors did when treaties were signed
Not a level playing field

IMO
There is no longer a need to kill sustinence deer or elk
Plenty of casino money to go around

I’ve watched salmon crab gooeys elk and deer in this state go down the toilet
Not all from tribal overharvest but certainly a contributing factor
It’s the I got mine and screw you attitude from some of the younger guys  I don’t like
We should all work to protect the resource



Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: meatwhack on December 02, 2019, 05:04:42 PM
Tribal members have no harvest limit for most big game which is what I think people were talking about. I’ve always wondered why a tribe that has a 1.2 million acre reservation would have any need to hunt anywhere else. Especially when tribes are so great at wildlife management.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 05:06:14 PM
And we have come full circle.....Gate the road, its the only way to stop it legally.   


If you really want to get their attention, give the Mucks a key.
This i could agree with,But yes there is a but.If they close the roads there will be less people hunting in those areas.

for cougar.

meatwhack..yes that is where they have limits BIG GAME.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: meatwhack on December 02, 2019, 05:09:15 PM
So they have a harvest limit of bulls they can go up and shoot with rifles in September?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 02, 2019, 05:11:50 PM
Isn't that a limit?Can't hunt on certain lands without a special permit? isn't that a limit as well?no hunting the feeding stations without special permit?come on now there are limits.

IF WE GOT IT PEOPLE WOULD DENY THE RESULTS.AM I WRONG?

But if less deer and elk are killed on winter range then it's still a good thing, duh.

Sure less cougars too. I'm sure dozens of those are shot too.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 05:16:38 PM
no,no one said they have no hunting rights but it was said they have unlimited hunting rights where i say fake news.

they cant do a number of things shown to us all by jackelopes post in a number of areas.   :tup:

Jonathan do you know how many deer and elk are harvested by natives on winter ranges?

me neither................JUST WHAT I HERE FROM OTHERS.Just like everyone else.

Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 05:18:06 PM
Isn't that a limit?Can't hunt on certain lands without a special permit? isn't that a limit as well?no hunting the feeding stations without special permit?come on now there are limits.

IF WE GOT IT PEOPLE WOULD DENY THE RESULTS.AM I WRONG?

But if less deer and elk are killed on winter range then it's still a good thing, duh.

Sure less cougars too. I'm sure dozens of those are shot too.
duh,if dozens of cougar were killed annually in winter ranges we would have less of a cougar problem.blend this thread with the cougars out of control threads and you would see people putting numbers on each cougars estimated annual kills.around 50 each.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 02, 2019, 05:20:16 PM

Jonathan do you know how many deer and elk are harvested by natives on winter range?

Yes
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 05:21:40 PM
ok i'll bite,how many?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: huntnfmly on December 02, 2019, 05:39:40 PM
Oh mah you know exactly what everyone was talking about no limits no one was talking about restrictions  nice pivot on your part tho
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 05:41:15 PM
wow,no limits = no restrictions.  :bash:
Title: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 05:48:25 PM
You’re grasping for straws. I thought we were talking harvest limits. That’s usually what we hunters mean when we say limits. Show me a yakama tribal bull elk harvest limit.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 05:50:22 PM
show me over harvesting by natives.im looking give me a min.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Bowhunter3 on December 02, 2019, 05:53:42 PM
Don’t feed the troll
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 02, 2019, 05:55:08 PM
show me over harvesting by natives.

Facebook Aaron Whitefoot
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 05:55:54 PM
Don’t feed the troll

I’m done. Can’t believe I fell into the trap. He’ll be arguing with himself in no time.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 05:57:30 PM
Don’t feed the troll
i am not a troll,i am being honest.all this hate for something that is heard from other haters.give facts and quit bashing other groups is all i have to say.i will not sit by while people bash for no reason that can be proven.jackelope dont go,you posted what i was looking for give me a min. to reply to your request.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 06:02:58 PM
"no wasting of game meat normally used for human consumption" so i guess they are limited to what can be consumed.

from jackelopes hunting information for tribal members post.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 02, 2019, 06:04:56 PM
Don’t feed the troll
i am not a troll,i am being honest.

Agreed  :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jackelope on December 02, 2019, 06:05:31 PM
"no wasting of game meat normally used for human consumption" so i guess they are limited to what can be consumed.

from jackelopes hunting information for tribal members post.

That’s not a harvest limit.

I buy a deer tag. I’m limited to one deer.
A tribal hunter, if he wants to, could literally shoot 5 bulls a day every day of the year if he wanted to.  And then he doesn’t have to report his harvest.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 06:11:12 PM
I disagree that they can,are you trying to say they have no oversite?I happen to know that they do.

you make like tribes don't care if all the fish and game are gone when we all know they do care as much as we do.if you cant prove that their is abuse and i cant prove that their is none then i guess this thread is a wash.just another bash thread like i already said.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: huntnfmly on December 02, 2019, 06:16:49 PM
Don’t feed the troll
Exactly
I actually had a response rtped up then deleted it for that reason
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: meatwhack on December 02, 2019, 06:17:48 PM
The only proof someone should need is to look at population numbers on and off the Rez. If they were so concerned about herd health they’d have some of the best elk hunting in the country on the Rez.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 06:30:34 PM
Don’t feed the troll
Exactly
I actually had a response rtped up then deleted it for that reason
that's rich,your statement earlier that is nothing short of laughable was that of a troll.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 06:31:08 PM
Oh mah you know exactly what everyone was talking about no limits no one was talking about restrictions  nice pivot on your part tho
this one if you forgot.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 02, 2019, 06:38:06 PM
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edwa/pr/illegal-trafficker-fish-and-wildlife-sentenced-four-years-probation


Wrist slap


Go hawks
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: millerwheeler on December 02, 2019, 06:39:58 PM
  Man you really get fired up . Must be the fire water  :IBCOOL: treaties should all be abolished  not renogotied  ABOLISHED

There is so much casino money no reason shouldn't all be on a level.playing field .
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: millerwheeler on December 02, 2019, 06:40:48 PM


Go hawks
 Man  we need to step our game up but we got this
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 02, 2019, 06:46:41 PM
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edwa/pr/illegal-trafficker-fish-and-wildlife-sentenced-four-years-probation


Wrist slap


Go hawks
not very much penalty for a lacey act violation(the sale of protected wildlife and illegally obtained wildlife) do you think it would have been more penalty for a non native in this state?other posts about penalties for poachers in WA. State do not indicate that it would.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 02, 2019, 06:52:37 PM
Lock the gates

Go hawks
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: swanderek on December 02, 2019, 08:34:11 PM
I am new yes... but,
I am seen natives around the toutle unit literally stack elk like wood and process them.( shot a night)
Fishing on the puyallup is even worse. Take the eggs and throw the fish back in the river. I wish everyone worked together for a better future.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: ribka on December 02, 2019, 08:44:27 PM
I disagree that they can,are you trying to say they have no oversite?I happen to know that they do.

you make like tribes don't care if all the fish and game are gone when we all know they do care as much as we do.if you cant prove that their is abuse and i cant prove that their is none then i guess this thread is a wash.just another bash thread like i already said.

they care-yep  :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: ballpark on December 03, 2019, 09:00:38 AM
Don’t feed the troll
i am not a troll,i am being honest.all this hate for something that is heard from other haters.give facts and quit bashing other groups is all i have to say.i will not sit by while people bash for no reason that can be proven.jackelope dont go,you posted what i was looking for give me a min. to reply to your request.
I'll bite - Why are some people allowed to use rifles to shoot game in a winter refuge area during archery season? :dunno:  Why not have "all hunters" use the same weapon during prescribed seasons?  Out of season these units can be controlled by locking the gates, this would have a positive impact on game that migrate to these winter refuge.  This would not prevent some people from hunting during the season :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 03, 2019, 09:06:25 AM
Don’t feed the troll
i am not a troll,i am being honest.all this hate for something that is heard from other haters.give facts and quit bashing other groups is all i have to say.i will not sit by while people bash for no reason that can be proven.jackelope dont go,you posted what i was looking for give me a min. to reply to your request.
I'll bite - Why are some people allowed to use rifles to shoot game in a winter refuge area during archery season? :dunno:  Why not have "all hunters" use the same weapon during prescribed seasons?  Out of season these units can be controlled by locking the gates, this would have a positive impact on game that migrate to these winter refuge.  This would not prevent some people from hunting during the season :tup:

You should read up on how treaties work. It would clear up all of the questions for you.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Stein on December 03, 2019, 09:07:27 AM
Don’t feed the troll
i am not a troll,i am being honest.all this hate for something that is heard from other haters.give facts and quit bashing other groups is all i have to say.i will not sit by while people bash for no reason that can be proven.jackelope dont go,you posted what i was looking for give me a min. to reply to your request.
I'll bite - Why are some people allowed to use rifles to shoot game in a winter refuge area during archery season? :dunno:  Why not have "all hunters" use the same weapon during prescribed seasons?  Out of season these units can be controlled by locking the gates, this might help these winter refuge areas that game migrate to.  This would not prevent some people from hunting during the season :tup:

It's pretty simple, there are two separate regulations.  Tribes have treaty rights and the rest of us are governed by state regulations.  They systems are separate and not equal.  It doesn't make sense asking why tribes don't comply with regulations that don't apply to them.  I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it is the law of the land right now.

Like others, I wish there was much more coordination with big game like there is with fish.  The fish program is far from perfect, or even close to, but there are quite a few good things going on and at least they all sit down and agree on quotas.  I think both sides should do better as WDFW doesn't even seem to have a big game conservation plan at all.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: outdooraddict on December 03, 2019, 10:54:29 AM
They should be on their horses with their long bow. Not a truck and a rifle
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 03, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
Late to the show but I thought “commercial” was something that happened in between TV shows  :dunno:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: birdshooter1189 on December 03, 2019, 11:45:15 AM
Don’t feed the troll
i am not a troll,i am being honest.all this hate for something that is heard from other haters.give facts and quit bashing other groups is all i have to say.i will not sit by while people bash for no reason that can be proven.jackelope dont go,you posted what i was looking for give me a min. to reply to your request.
I'll bite - Why are some people allowed to use rifles to shoot game in a winter refuge area during archery season? :dunno:  Why not have "all hunters" use the same weapon during prescribed seasons?  Out of season these units can be controlled by locking the gates, this might help these winter refuge areas that game migrate to.  This would not prevent some people from hunting during the season :tup:

It's pretty simple, there are two separate regulations.  Tribes have treaty rights and the rest of us are governed by state regulations.  They systems are separate and not equal.  It doesn't make sense asking why tribes don't comply with regulations that don't apply to them.  I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it is the law of the land right now.

Like others, I wish there was much more coordination with big game like there is with fish.  The fish program is far from perfect, or even close to, but there are quite a few good things going on and at least they all sit down and agree on quotas.  I think both sides should do better as WDFW doesn't even seem to have a big game conservation plan at all.

In my opinion there are two problems here that are fueling a lot of frustration among us.
1. There are not enough animals (game and fish) to meet the desires of us humans.
2. We have different groups of humans following different rules based on skin color.  This is especially problematic when combined with the first problem.

I think the best solution would be to re-write the rules and treaties to make everyone follow the same rules regardless of skin color or ethnicity.  I understand that native americans have special privileges because my white great great grandparents forced their native great great grandparents onto reservations.  I also understand that their great great grandparent "braves" raided and scalped some of my great great grandparents. Wrongs were definitely committed on both sides.  Somehow we have to find a way to move past this though and realize that we are all Americans and ought to work together as one team.  Especially as sportsmen we ought to be working together for the common good of us all instead of bickering among ourselves.

I fish a lot and I have in the past taken time off work and driven 3+ hours to go salmon fishing on a river, only to realize after I got there that the river is BARREN of fish because native americans have had nets in the river, or accross the mouth of it, for the past couple days.  That's extremely frustrating and it is difficult to not start blaming others.  It's pretty difficult to not start asking "why do they have the right to net the whole river and I am limited to single hook and line?"  And the answer is: because their great great grandparents had a "tradition" of fishing the river and their traditions are now protected as rights.  I am expected to forget that my great great grandparents also fished and hunted, but somehow my ancestor's traditions are not protected as rights for me.

I do understand that the tribes are very active and effective at running fish hatcheries and promoting fish and game conservation efforts.  It is my understanding that they tend to run them more efficiently than WDFW. For this work I am very appreciative.  I applaud and thank them for their work and dedication.

As a white american I understand the frustration towards native americans because they have additional fishing and hunting priveleges than me.  I also understand Oh Ma's frustration though at being a conscientious native american and being blamed continuously for the shortage of hunting and fishing opportunities.

In the end I go back to the first two problems I stated at the start of my post.  Somehow we need to find a way to level the playing field and make the same rules for everyone, regardless of skin color or ethnicity.  Whether the tribes are given full control of fish and game and WDFW is done away with and everyone follows their rules, or whether WDFW takes full control of fish and game and the tribes follow their rules.
 Just make the same rules for everyone. Until that happens I'm afraid the conflict and "hate" between these groups will continue.

In the mean time we will continue to do our best to work together and keep reminding ourselves to get along and refrain from blaming.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idahohuntr on December 03, 2019, 12:01:30 PM
Your point number 2 is flawed.  Skin color is not the determining factor.  Being a member of a Tribe which negotiated a Treaty with the United States reserving said rights is what creates a different set of "rules". 

They should be on their horses with their long bow. Not a truck and a rifle
Their treaty right reserved the taking of game and fish, it did not specify methods/means.  Should your constitutional rights be limited to the technologies available at the time such rights were established?  Think 2nd amendment circa 1776  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: dvolmer on December 03, 2019, 12:17:48 PM
I was going to try and not say any more but I have a big mouth so here it goes.

Yes Natives have treaty rights on hunting and fishing.  Here's my problem, What is a native and what is not?  We have to honor their rights and treaties but they get to determine who has these rights.  Stay with me here.  After a little research I found that to be a member of the Yakima tribe you have to be 25% native.  Muckelshoot tribe is 10%.  In the past, your % had to be higher.  They get to make these rules and they are fluid in that they can change the percentage as they choose.  So when a Muckelshoot with 10% native blood gets to hunt, what is the other 90% of him or her doing?  Poaching???

100% natives should be able to keep their treaty rights.  Anything less is a wicked evil American like the rest of us!  If this rule was followed the problem would be solved.

Like Obama, supposed to be are first black president.  Nonsense!  He was half white!  So I guess people in this country get to choose and pick what % nationality they get to be determining on what special interest or benefit it will get them.  Hogwash!  This is Racism at its finest.  But we are called racist by talking about it and or challenging the validity of it all.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: boneaddict on December 03, 2019, 12:31:50 PM
I was going to try and not say any more but I have a big mouth so here it goes.

Yes Natives have treaty rights on hunting and fishing.  Here's my problem, What is a native and what is not?  We have to honor their rights and treaties but they get to determine who has these rights.  Stay with me here.  After a little research I found that to be a member of the Yakima tribe you have to be 25% native.  Muckelshoot tribe is 10%.  In the past, your % had to be higher.  They get to make these rules and they are fluid in that they can change the percentage as they choose.  So when a Muckelshoot with 10% native blood gets to hunt, what is the other 90% of him or her doing?  Poaching???

100% natives should be able to keep their treaty rights.  Anything less is a wicked evil American like the rest of us!  If this rule was followed the problem would be solved.

Like Obama, supposed to be are first black president.  Nonsense!  He was half white!  So I guess people in this country get to choose and pick what % nationality they get to be determining on what special interest or benefit it will get them.  Hogwash!  This is Racism at its finest.  But we are called racist by talking about it and or challenging the validity of it all.
If I was Elizabeth Warren.......I'd be cashing in on these hunting privileges
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 03, 2019, 12:33:56 PM
I was going to try and not say any more but I have a big mouth so here it goes.

Yes Natives have treaty rights on hunting and fishing.  Here's my problem, What is a native and what is not?  We have to honor their rights and treaties but they get to determine who has these rights.  Stay with me here.  After a little research I found that to be a member of the Yakima tribe you have to be 25% native.  Muckelshoot tribe is 10%.  In the past, your % had to be higher.  They get to make these rules and they are fluid in that they can change the percentage as they choose.  So when a Muckelshoot with 10% native blood gets to hunt, what is the other 90% of him or her doing?  Poaching???

100% natives should be able to keep their treaty rights.  Anything less is a wicked evil American like the rest of us!  If this rule was followed the problem would be solved.

Like Obama, supposed to be are first black president.  Nonsense!  He was half white!  So I guess people in this country get to choose and pick what % nationality they get to be determining on what special interest or benefit it will get them.  Hogwash!  This is Racism at its finest.  But we are called racist by talking about it and or challenging the validity of it all.


Well stated  :tup: :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 03, 2019, 12:41:19 PM
"In my opinion there are two problems here that are fueling a lot of frustration among us.
1. There are not enough animals (game and fish) to meet the desires of us humans.
2. We have different groups of humans following different rules based on skin color.  This is especially problematic when combined with the first problem."

birdshooter1189, On what data do you base your statement in #1? If you're talking about salmon and steelhead runs, for example, a very compelling argument could be made that the greatest detriment to salmonids has been the construction of dams by white people and the pollution of our water with the use of pesticides. As far as our ungulate herds are concerned, it may be successfully argued that loss of habitat, disease, and predation are the leading factors affecting populations. In statement #2, the first part is inaccurate and, assuming you have no data to support statement #1, the second part of #2 doesn't make any sense. Different people follow different rules not because of "their skin color", but because the US Congress passed those treaties and the President signed them into law. We do this with many sovereign nations when we need to make a deal which benefits both parties in some way. Apparently, we can also back out of those if the agreement no longer benefits us. But, I think it'd be a long row to hoe getting Congress or the President to change the treaties based on your emotional assessment, as opposed to scientific hypotheses based on empirical data. Just because you don't like it that Indians have rights that you don't does not a convincing argument make. Collecting data and presenting a scientific approach would possibly carry some weight.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: 2MANY on December 03, 2019, 12:49:09 PM
What would Colin Krapperneck do?
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 03, 2019, 12:51:09 PM
 :chuckle: He'd still be out looking for a job.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Pinetar on December 03, 2019, 01:01:27 PM
I was going to try and not say any more but I have a big mouth so here it goes.

Yes Natives have treaty rights on hunting and fishing.  Here's my problem, What is a native and what is not?  We have to honor their rights and treaties but they get to determine who has these rights.  Stay with me here.  After a little research I found that to be a member of the Yakima tribe you have to be 25% native.  Muckelshoot tribe is 10%.  In the past, your % had to be higher.  They get to make these rules and they are fluid in that they can change the percentage as they choose.  So when a Muckelshoot with 10% native blood gets to hunt, what is the other 90% of him or her doing?  Poaching???

100% natives should be able to keep their treaty rights.  Anything less is a wicked evil American like the rest of us!  If this rule was followed the problem would be solved.

Like Obama, supposed to be are first black president.  Nonsense!  He was half white!  So I guess people in this country get to choose and pick what % nationality they get to be determining on what special interest or benefit it will get them.  Hogwash!  This is Racism at its finest.  But we are called racist by talking about it and or challenging the validity of it all.

 :yeah: Excellent and well stated!!
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: 2MANY on December 03, 2019, 01:03:53 PM
Mercy if that doesn't cause ED in the TeePee I don't know what would.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 03, 2019, 01:18:00 PM
The problem with of course being that white slave owners would routinely rape Indian slaves and then enslave their children. So if you are going to say someone has to be 100% Native American in order to get treaty rights that’s going to be difficult. I have first hand accounts of a Native American woman who was spit on and called half breed by her classmates and teachers while attending school in the 50s and 60s. She should not be considered Native American though cause a white man raped her mom? The tribes are autonomous nations and can decide, like most autonomous nations, who gets to become a member or citizen. As much as I don’t like Obama I don’t ever recall someone disparaging him because of his white ancestry yet people would disparage him because of his black skin color and ancestry. Not saying he isn’t half white just saying that to a lot of people that still means he is black.

I was going to try and not say any more but I have a big mouth so here it goes.

Yes Natives have treaty rights on hunting and fishing.  Here's my problem, What is a native and what is not?  We have to honor their rights and treaties but they get to determine who has these rights.  Stay with me here.  After a little research I found that to be a member of the Yakima tribe you have to be 25% native.  Muckelshoot tribe is 10%.  In the past, your % had to be higher.  They get to make these rules and they are fluid in that they can change the percentage as they choose.  So when a Muckelshoot with 10% native blood gets to hunt, what is the other 90% of him or her doing?  Poaching???

100% natives should be able to keep their treaty rights.  Anything less is a wicked evil American like the rest of us!  If this rule was followed the problem would be solved.

Like Obama, supposed to be are first black president.  Nonsense!  He was half white!  So I guess people in this country get to choose and pick what % nationality they get to be determining on what special interest or benefit it will get them.  Hogwash!  This is Racism at its finest.  But we are called racist by talking about it and or challenging the validity of it all.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idahohuntr on December 03, 2019, 01:30:42 PM
I was going to try and not say any more but I have a big mouth so here it goes.

Yes Natives have treaty rights on hunting and fishing.  Here's my problem, What is a native and what is not?  We have to honor their rights and treaties but they get to determine who has these rights.  Stay with me here.  After a little research I found that to be a member of the Yakima tribe you have to be 25% native.  Muckelshoot tribe is 10%.  In the past, your % had to be higher.  They get to make these rules and they are fluid in that they can change the percentage as they choose.  So when a Muckelshoot with 10% native blood gets to hunt, what is the other 90% of him or her doing?  Poaching???

100% natives should be able to keep their treaty rights.  Anything less is a wicked evil American like the rest of us!  If this rule was followed the problem would be solved.

Like Obama, supposed to be are first black president.  Nonsense!  He was half white!  So I guess people in this country get to choose and pick what % nationality they get to be determining on what special interest or benefit it will get them.  Hogwash!  This is Racism at its finest.  But we are called racist by talking about it and or challenging the validity of it all.
As a sovereign the Tribe determines their membership requirements. If the Yakamas say 25% or the muckelshoots say 10%...their prerogative.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: birdshooter1189 on December 03, 2019, 01:32:30 PM
"In my opinion there are two problems here that are fueling a lot of frustration among us.
1. There are not enough animals (game and fish) to meet the desires of us humans.
2. We have different groups of humans following different rules based on skin color.  This is especially problematic when combined with the first problem."

birdshooter1189, On what data do you base your statement in #1? If you're talking about salmon and steelhead runs, for example, a very compelling argument could be made that the greatest detriment to salmonids has been the construction of dams by white people and the pollution of our water with the use of pesticides. As far as our ungulate herds are concerned, it may be successfully argued that loss of habitat, disease, and predation are the leading factors affecting populations. In statement #2, the first part is inaccurate and, assuming you have no data to support statement #1, the second part of #2 doesn't make any sense. Different people follow different rules not because of "their skin color", but because the US Congress passed those treaties and the President signed them into law. We do this with many sovereign nations when we need to make a deal which benefits both parties in some way. Apparently, we can also back out of those if the agreement no longer benefits us. But, I think it'd be a long row to hoe getting Congress or the President to change the treaties based on your emotional assessment, as opposed to scientific hypotheses based on empirical data. Just because you don't like it that Indians have rights that you don't does not a convincing argument make. Collecting data and presenting a scientific approach would possibly carry some weight.

My statement for #1 is just simply that there isn't as much fish and game as we (sportsmen) would like.  I wasn't trying to place blame on why there is a shortage.  Just acknowledging that a shortage exists.  I agree with you about all the contributing factors you listed, and I'm sure we could add many more contributors to that list.

For statement #2, I appologize if I mis-spoke by identifying tribal members as people of a different skin color.  Perhaps I should have said:
2. We have different groups of humans following different rules based on membership to a tribe (sovereign nation).  This is especially problematic when combined with the first problem."

The main point I was trying to get across is that it is my opinion that:
1. We have a limited resource.
2. Different groups of people who are competing for the same limited resource are following different rules.

And this is a perfect recipe for tension and agitation between the different groups that are competing for the resource.

I understand that it is a long shot and will probably never happen, but in my opinion we would eliminate nearly all of the tension between tribal sportsmen and non-tribal sportsmen if we all were following the same set of hunting and fishing rules.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 03, 2019, 01:35:25 PM
Honest question.
If/When a WDFW agent makes contact with a Yakama Hunter, Do they ask to see verification of their tribal membership??
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: boneaddict on December 03, 2019, 01:48:02 PM
"D i p l o m a t i c   immunity"
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 03, 2019, 02:01:10 PM
 ;) you know where I was headed with this don’t ya
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: dvolmer on December 03, 2019, 02:08:55 PM
I was going to try and not say any more but I have a big mouth so here it goes.

Yes Natives have treaty rights on hunting and fishing.  Here's my problem, What is a native and what is not?  We have to honor their rights and treaties but they get to determine who has these rights.  Stay with me here.  After a little research I found that to be a member of the Yakima tribe you have to be 25% native.  Muckelshoot tribe is 10%.  In the past, your % had to be higher.  They get to make these rules and they are fluid in that they can change the percentage as they choose.  So when a Muckelshoot with 10% native blood gets to hunt, what is the other 90% of him or her doing?  Poaching???

100% natives should be able to keep their treaty rights.  Anything less is a wicked evil American like the rest of us!  If this rule was followed the problem would be solved.

Like Obama, supposed to be are first black president.  Nonsense!  He was half white!  So I guess people in this country get to choose and pick what % nationality they get to be determining on what special interest or benefit it will get them.  Hogwash!  This is Racism at its finest.  But we are called racist by talking about it and or challenging the validity of it all.
As a sovereign the Tribe determines their membership requirements. If the Yakamas say 25% or the muckelshoots say 10%...their prerogative.
.         

I agree and disagree. Inside of the reservations they can do as they please as a sovereign nation. But when it affects us outside of their reservations there needs to be some kind of by off and agreement by the rest of the people involved and impacted by the decision.                                                                                                                                             
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 03, 2019, 02:15:25 PM
I was going to try and not say any more but I have a big mouth so here it goes.

Yes Natives have treaty rights on hunting and fishing.  Here's my problem, What is a native and what is not?  We have to honor their rights and treaties but they get to determine who has these rights.  Stay with me here.  After a little research I found that to be a member of the Yakima tribe you have to be 25% native.  Muckelshoot tribe is 10%.  In the past, your % had to be higher.  They get to make these rules and they are fluid in that they can change the percentage as they choose.  So when a Muckelshoot with 10% native blood gets to hunt, what is the other 90% of him or her doing?  Poaching???

100% natives should be able to keep their treaty rights.  Anything less is a wicked evil American like the rest of us!  If this rule was followed the problem would be solved.

Like Obama, supposed to be are first black president.  Nonsense!  He was half white!  So I guess people in this country get to choose and pick what % nationality they get to be determining on what special interest or benefit it will get them.  Hogwash!  This is Racism at its finest.  But we are called racist by talking about it and or challenging the validity of it all.
As a sovereign the Tribe determines their membership requirements. If the Yakamas say 25% or the muckelshoots say 10%...their prerogative.
.         

I agree and disagree. Inside of the reservations they can do as they please as a sovereign nation. But when it affects us outside of their reservations there needs to be some kind of by off and agreement by the rest of the people involved and impacted by the decision.                                                                                                                                             

There is an agreement. That’s what a treaty is...
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 03, 2019, 02:20:08 PM
"In my opinion there are two problems here that are fueling a lot of frustration among us.
1. There are not enough animals (game and fish) to meet the desires of us humans.
2. We have different groups of humans following different rules based on skin color.  This is especially problematic when combined with the first problem."

birdshooter1189, On what data do you base your statement in #1? If you're talking about salmon and steelhead runs, for example, a very compelling argument could be made that the greatest detriment to salmonids has been the construction of dams by white people and the pollution of our water with the use of pesticides. As far as our ungulate herds are concerned, it may be successfully argued that loss of habitat, disease, and predation are the leading factors affecting populations. In statement #2, the first part is inaccurate and, assuming you have no data to support statement #1, the second part of #2 doesn't make any sense. Different people follow different rules not because of "their skin color", but because the US Congress passed those treaties and the President signed them into law. We do this with many sovereign nations when we need to make a deal which benefits both parties in some way. Apparently, we can also back out of those if the agreement no longer benefits us. But, I think it'd be a long row to hoe getting Congress or the President to change the treaties based on your emotional assessment, as opposed to scientific hypotheses based on empirical data. Just because you don't like it that Indians have rights that you don't does not a convincing argument make. Collecting data and presenting a scientific approach would possibly carry some weight.

My statement for #1 is just simply that there isn't as much fish and game as we (sportsmen) would like.  I wasn't trying to place blame on why there is a shortage.  Just acknowledging that a shortage exists.  I agree with you about all the contributing factors you listed, and I'm sure we could add many more contributors to that list.

For statement #2, I appologize if I mis-spoke by identifying tribal members as people of a different skin color.  Perhaps I should have said:
2. We have different groups of humans following different rules based on membership to a tribe (sovereign nation).  This is especially problematic when combined with the first problem."

The main point I was trying to get across is that it is my opinion that:
1. We have a limited resource.
2. Different groups of people who are competing for the same limited resource are following different rules.

And this is a perfect recipe for tension and agitation between the different groups that are competing for the resource.

I understand that it is a long shot and will probably never happen, but in my opinion we would eliminate nearly all of the tension between tribal sportsmen and non-tribal sportsmen if we all were following the same set of hunting and fishing rules.

So you believe that if you take away the treaty rights from the Indians that's going to relieve tension? Yeah, it won't. It'll just make you happier. I also don't see evidence from you that taking away their hunting and fishing rights will cure the ills of our fish and game. You perceive their rights as unfair and think we have wildlife shortages to do with that. Sorry, I just don't see the proof. I believe it's an emotional response based on jealousy and nothing scientific. Show me some numbers - harvest numbers, herd numbers, etc. - and show me the connection between those numbers and tribal rights. Then maybe we'll find common ground. Until then, I remain unconvinced that the tribes are the reason for our wildlife woes, if any.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: ballpark on December 03, 2019, 02:35:20 PM
Don’t feed the troll
i am not a troll,i am being honest.all this hate for something that is heard from other haters.give facts and quit bashing other groups is all i have to say.i will not sit by while people bash for no reason that can be proven.jackelope dont go,you posted what i was looking for give me a min. to reply to your request.
I'll bite - Why are some people allowed to use rifles to shoot game in a winter refuge area during archery season? :dunno:  Why not have "all hunters" use the same weapon during prescribed seasons?  Out of season these units can be controlled by locking the gates, this would have a positive impact on game that migrate to these winter refuge.  This would not prevent some people from hunting during the season :tup:

You should read up on how treaties work. It would clear up all of the questions for you.
Help me out Pianoman- Your saying the treaties state specific use of a rifle? :dunno:  I'm not discussing restricting ability to hunt, just use the same method during prescribed hunts.  Use whatever you want during other times and F&G can control vehicle access to winter refuge areas.  That would help - in my opinion. :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: elkrack on December 03, 2019, 02:36:37 PM
There’s no doubt the WDFW has played a major role in our current game numbers with their crazy number of cow permits they issued a few years back! But if you think the tribe hasn’t played a role your mistaken. Remember they have no reporting tool so your guess is as good as mine as to the number of elk they are harvesting in the wintering grounds. For the record I’m not tribe bashing just really can’t comprehend they don’t have to report kills. I believe it would actually help relieve tensions if there was some transparency on the tribes part. Maybe that’s just me :dunno:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idahohuntr on December 03, 2019, 02:40:56 PM
I was going to try and not say any more but I have a big mouth so here it goes.

Yes Natives have treaty rights on hunting and fishing.  Here's my problem, What is a native and what is not?  We have to honor their rights and treaties but they get to determine who has these rights.  Stay with me here.  After a little research I found that to be a member of the Yakima tribe you have to be 25% native.  Muckelshoot tribe is 10%.  In the past, your % had to be higher.  They get to make these rules and they are fluid in that they can change the percentage as they choose.  So when a Muckelshoot with 10% native blood gets to hunt, what is the other 90% of him or her doing?  Poaching???

100% natives should be able to keep their treaty rights.  Anything less is a wicked evil American like the rest of us!  If this rule was followed the problem would be solved.

Like Obama, supposed to be are first black president.  Nonsense!  He was half white!  So I guess people in this country get to choose and pick what % nationality they get to be determining on what special interest or benefit it will get them.  Hogwash!  This is Racism at its finest.  But we are called racist by talking about it and or challenging the validity of it all.
As a sovereign the Tribe determines their membership requirements. If the Yakamas say 25% or the muckelshoots say 10%...their prerogative.
.         

I agree and disagree. Inside of the reservations they can do as they please as a sovereign nation. But when it affects us outside of their reservations there needs to be some kind of by off and agreement by the rest of the people involved and impacted by the decision.                                                                                                                                             

There is an agreement. That’s what a treaty is...
Exactly.  The agreement has been in place since ~1855  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: B4noon on December 03, 2019, 02:42:32 PM
Have to have good optics to see the proof from vancouver its certainly not the only factor buts its a pretty huge one watching from my backyard
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 03, 2019, 02:44:37 PM
Don’t feed the troll
i am not a troll,i am being honest.all this hate for something that is heard from other haters.give facts and quit bashing other groups is all i have to say.i will not sit by while people bash for no reason that can be proven.jackelope dont go,you posted what i was looking for give me a min. to reply to your request.
I'll bite - Why are some people allowed to use rifles to shoot game in a winter refuge area during archery season? :dunno:  Why not have "all hunters" use the same weapon during prescribed seasons?  Out of season these units can be controlled by locking the gates, this would have a positive impact on game that migrate to these winter refuge.  This would not prevent some people from hunting during the season :tup:

You should read up on how treaties work. It would clear up all of the questions for you.
Help me out Pianoman- Your saying the treaties state specific use of a rifle? :dunno:  I'm not discussing restricting ability to hunt, just use the same method during prescribed hunts.  Use whatever you want during other times and F&G can control vehicle access to winter refuge areas.  That would help - in my opinion. :tup:

Where does it specifically say semi automatic rifle in the second amendment
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 03, 2019, 02:48:56 PM
Don’t feed the troll
i am not a troll,i am being honest.all this hate for something that is heard from other haters.give facts and quit bashing other groups is all i have to say.i will not sit by while people bash for no reason that can be proven.jackelope dont go,you posted what i was looking for give me a min. to reply to your request.
I'll bite - Why are some people allowed to use rifles to shoot game in a winter refuge area during archery season? :dunno:  Why not have "all hunters" use the same weapon during prescribed seasons?  Out of season these units can be controlled by locking the gates, this would have a positive impact on game that migrate to these winter refuge.  This would not prevent some people from hunting during the season :tup:

You should read up on how treaties work. It would clear up all of the questions for you.
Help me out Pianoman- Your saying the treaties state specific use of a rifle? :dunno:  I'm not discussing restricting ability to hunt, just use the same method during prescribed hunts.  Use whatever you want during other times and F&G can control vehicle access to winter refuge areas.  That would help - in my opinion. :tup:

I think you know I'm not saying that. I am saying that the tribes are granted certain rights by treaty that have nothing to do with the hunting privileges that you and I enjoy.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: ballpark on December 03, 2019, 02:52:26 PM
Don’t feed the troll
i am not a troll,i am being honest.all this hate for something that is heard from other haters.give facts and quit bashing other groups is all i have to say.i will not sit by while people bash for no reason that can be proven.jackelope dont go,you posted what i was looking for give me a min. to reply to your request.
I'll bite - Why are some people allowed to use rifles to shoot game in a winter refuge area during archery season? :dunno:  Why not have "all hunters" use the same weapon during prescribed seasons?  Out of season these units can be controlled by locking the gates, this would have a positive impact on game that migrate to these winter refuge.  This would not prevent some people from hunting during the season :tup:

You should read up on how treaties work. It would clear up all of the questions for you.
Help me out Pianoman- Your saying the treaties state specific use of a rifle? :dunno:  I'm not discussing restricting ability to hunt, just use the same method during prescribed hunts.  Use whatever you want during other times and F&G can control vehicle access to winter refuge areas.  That would help - in my opinion. :tup:

Where does it specifically say semi automatic rifle in the second amendment

Well Platensek-po I don't think it applies to the topic of locking up winter refuge access gates, but here is your answer.
"A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 03:08:56 PM
The heart of the 2nd amendment is clear.


THE PEOPLE SHALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO BARE ARMS

THIS MEANS (MILITIA) TO BE EQUAL TO ANY GOV. THAT MAY RISE UP AGAINST THE PEOPLE.

In short if any gov. has it then the people according to the law of the land also have the right to.

i realize that that's not whats going on but to be clear that is in fact what the founders meant 100%.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Tiger01 on December 03, 2019, 03:12:29 PM
Times have changed, it’s not 1855 anymore. Time for EVERYONE to play by the same rules and have the same goals in mind.  Eliminate the treaty.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 03:22:59 PM
The treaties have the same meaning to tribal as the Constitution does for you and I.

I WILL NOT STAND BY AND LET THE LEFT TAKE MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

Are you sure you want them to take the treaty rights away?  :bash:

all of these same arguments in this thread against treaty rights are the same as the anti Constitution argument's,Think about that.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 03, 2019, 03:27:48 PM
That was kind of my point about the rifle post. I am in no way against the constitution.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: ballpark on December 03, 2019, 03:33:12 PM
That was kind of my point about the rifle post. I am in no way against the constitution.

Serious question - Do the treaties state hunt by whatever means possible, or more to - will not restrict the right to hunt?  My discussion has not been about restricting rights to hunt but about vehicle access to winter refuge areas and using firearms during archery season in a winter refuge area. 
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Tiger01 on December 03, 2019, 03:40:46 PM
I am not against the constitution, but if the US constitution stated that every member of the US could drive their pickups into winter range and shoot as many elk as they’d like, then yes, I’d vote for a change.  Just my opinion. 
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 03, 2019, 03:42:08 PM
The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams, where running through or bordering said reservation, is further secured to said confederated tribes and bands of Indians, as also the right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed places, in common with the citizens of the Territory, and of erecting temporary buildings for curing them; together with the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land.

http://www.yakamanation-nsn.gov/treaty.php
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: CoryTDF on December 03, 2019, 03:42:27 PM
The treaties have the same meaning to tribal as the Constitution does for you and I.

I WILL NOT STAND BY AND LET THE LEFT TAKE MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

Are you sure you want them to take the treaty rights away?  :bash:

all of these same arguments in this thread against treaty rights are the same as the anti Constitution argument's,Think about that.  :twocents:

I see where you are coming from here. Lets look at the 2nd amendment for a second. For this one, as technology advanced, the government eventually had to step in and put a restriction to what can be owned and possessed under the 2nd amendment. The initial intent of the law had no way of seeing what the future would hold. I think we can all agree that it's not a great idea for a pawn shop to sell 240 Bravo's to the GP. 

How is it not fair to use that same logic when it comes to things like modern monofilament gill nets, quads, scoped rifles, powerboats, ext. when looking at the "rights" granted to natives in regards to harvesting game? There has to be a line. Additionally, as people preach about their historical and ancestral right to harvest game It seems funny that they have moved as far away from traditional methods as possible??? When I drew my 2013 Dayton archery tag I hunted the Rainwater area and there were natives up there rifle hunting for elk while I was chasing them with my bow. Myself and one of the natives I talked to had a good laugh at how backwards this was.

Point is, I feel like native and non native alike can agree that when the treaties were written nobody knew anything about modern machines, nets, optics, rangefinders, ext. I truly believe that if they had things would have been written differently. Lastly, we all want their to be healthy populations of animals for generations to come. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. I find it odd that so many people have lost sight of that.   
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 03, 2019, 03:49:37 PM
Why is rights in quotations?? They have a right to hunt and to the fish and game. You and I do not.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 03:56:08 PM
The treaties have the same meaning to tribal as the Constitution does for you and I.

I WILL NOT STAND BY AND LET THE LEFT TAKE MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

Are you sure you want them to take the treaty rights away?  :bash:

all of these same arguments in this thread against treaty rights are the same as the anti Constitution argument's,Think about that.  :twocents:

I see where you are coming from here. Lets look at the 2nd amendment for a second. For this one, as technology advanced, the government eventually had to step in and put a restriction to what can be owned and possessed under the 2nd amendment. The initial intent of the law had no way of seeing what the future would hold. I think we can all agree that it's not a great idea for a pawn shop to sell 240 Bravo's to the GP. 

How is it not fair to use that same logic when it comes to things like modern monofilament gill nets, quads, scoped rifles, powerboats, ext. when looking at the "rights" granted to natives in regards to harvesting game? There has to be a line. Additionally, as people preach about their historical and ancestral right to harvest game It seems funny that they have moved as far away from traditional methods as possible??? When I drew my 2013 Dayton archery tag I hunted the Rainwater area and there were natives up there rifle hunting for elk while I was chasing them with my bow. Myself and one of the natives I talked to had a good laugh at how backwards this was.

Point is, I feel like native and non native alike can agree that when the treaties were written nobody knew anything about modern machines, nets, optics, rangefinders, ext. I truly believe that if they had things would have been written differently. Lastly, we all want their to be healthy populations of animals for generations to come. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. I find it odd that so many people have lost sight of that.



        Because we were foolish enough to let them!

the tribes have learned from our mistakes over the past century,If you were them would you let the gov. do to them what they have or are trying to do to us?

THE TRIBES ARE TIGHTER TOGETHER ON THESE ISSUES THAN WE ARE ON OURS.THAT IS OBVIOUS IN THE THREADS THAT KEEP BRINGING USER GROUP AGAINST USER GROUP.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 03:59:44 PM
The tribes have the law of the land on their side and the tribes are undivided on these issues,We are split into several groups and are severely divided on all of these issues.

anti gun,
dem.
lib.
rep.
anti hunting

anti trapping

anti fishing

etc etc etc
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idahohuntr on December 03, 2019, 04:00:11 PM
That was kind of my point about the rifle post. I am in no way against the constitution.

Serious question - Do the treaties state hunt by whatever means possible, or more to - will not restrict the right to hunt?  My discussion has not been about restricting rights to hunt but about vehicle access to winter refuge areas and using firearms during archery season in a winter refuge area.
Case law does impose limitations on treaty hunting/fishing rights - called a conservation necessity.  The bar is very high and regulation can not be disproportionate to the Tribes.  Basically, if elk are in danger of going extinct - the State could step in and put a stop to tribal hunting.  The closure would have to apply equally to non-tribal members and the bar for doing this would literally be extinction or something close. 

Vehicle access to winter range...I don't think anything about treaty rights guarantees vehicle access.  Tribes could not be prohibited from going into an area considered open and unclaimed (which most public lands are), but I don't think Tribes could make a case they have legal rights to vehicle access.  This is certainly one area land managers could enforce closures if they so choose.

Weapon type...it doesn't matter if is an archery season for the State...the Tribe does not have to follow state regs so it being state archery season has no bearing on treaty hunting.  The only way I could see a non-Tribal regulation applying would be for serious/legitimate safety issues.  Nothing about the treaty regulates methods or means of harvest...except if harvest is so high it results in a conservation issue as described above.

Also...very important detail...treaty hunting/fishing rights were not granted to Tribes by the US...they were specifically reserved (and always held) by Tribes.  Its incorrect to think of them as some gift from the US...
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: BeerBugler on December 03, 2019, 04:02:23 PM
The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams, where running through or bordering said reservation, is further secured to said confederated tribes and bands of Indians, as also the right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed places, in common with the citizens of the Territory, and of erecting temporary buildings for curing them; together with the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land.

http://www.yakamanation-nsn.gov/treaty.php

“In common with the citizens of the territory” we shouldn’t even be having this discussion, plain as day, do what you want on the reservation, when hunting/fishing on ceded lands follow the rules in common with the citizens of the territory.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 03, 2019, 04:03:52 PM
I believe that only applies to fishing.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Whitefoot on December 03, 2019, 04:07:00 PM
Where is Watt Canyon??
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idahohuntr on December 03, 2019, 04:08:30 PM
The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams, where running through or bordering said reservation, is further secured to said confederated tribes and bands of Indians, as also the right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed places, in common with the citizens of the Territory, and of erecting temporary buildings for curing them; together with the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land.

http://www.yakamanation-nsn.gov/treaty.php

“In common with the citizens of the territory” we shouldn’t even be having this discussion, plain as day, do what you want on the reservation, when hunting/fishing on ceded lands follow the rules in common with the citizens of the territory.
SCOTUS has made clear in multiple decisions that "In common with" is not interpreted as what you describe...if it was, the treaties would have little value to Tribes.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: BeerBugler on December 03, 2019, 04:08:47 PM
I believe that only applies to fishing.

“Together with” would be inclusive.....hunting AND fishing.....in common with
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 03, 2019, 04:14:16 PM
1 it’s only talking about fishing at that point.
2 rereading it I think it more implies that they will be sharing those locations with citizens of the territory. As in it’s not exclusively theirs like it is on the reservation.

3 the Supreme Court has upheld those decisions. Just like it’s not you and I who decide on the constitution, it’s not up to you and I to figure out what the treaties mean.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: BeerBugler on December 03, 2019, 04:14:35 PM
The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams, where running through or bordering said reservation, is further secured to said confederated tribes and bands of Indians, as also the right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed places, in common with the citizens of the Territory, and of erecting temporary buildings for curing them; together with the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land.

http://www.yakamanation-nsn.gov/treaty.php

“In common with the citizens of the territory” we shouldn’t even be having this discussion, plain as day, do what you want on the reservation, when hunting/fishing on ceded lands follow the rules in common with the citizens of the territory.
SCOTUS has made clear in multiple decisions that "In common with" is not interpreted as what you describe...if it was, the treaties would have little value to Tribes.

It would have thee intended value to the tribes. Thee appropriate value. The right to leave the reservation and hunt on ceded lands under the rules and regulations of those lands. The same rules and regulations that everyone else who hunts those lands must adhere to. Makes a lot more sense than any other interpretation.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 04:16:10 PM
when the treaties were signed i believe that the tribes did basically do it the same as us then,THE GOV. FORMED THESE RULES AND REGS ON US TO CONTROL WHAT AND HOW WE DO THINGS.THERE WAS NO NEW AGREEMENT TO THESE THEREFORE THEY STAYED THE SAME.
As for the new equipment used,that was not in their agreement nore is it in our constitution.


What is also not in our constitution is power for the gov. to ban anything.They do that at will on their own authority.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 03, 2019, 04:16:42 PM
On ALL ceded lands???
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 04:21:35 PM
Ok someone post the hunting regs for the year 1855 please.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: meatwhack on December 03, 2019, 04:42:26 PM
The “In Common With” language is what I believe could be argued.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Odell on December 03, 2019, 04:47:47 PM
The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams, where running through or bordering said reservation, is further secured to said confederated tribes and bands of Indians, as also the right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed places, in common with the citizens of the Territory, and of erecting temporary buildings for curing them; together with the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land.

http://www.yakamanation-nsn.gov/treaty.php

“In common with the citizens of the territory” we shouldn’t even be having this discussion, plain as day, do what you want on the reservation, when hunting/fishing on ceded lands follow the rules in common with the citizens of the territory.

It’s a no brainer but needs a politician with some courage to address it. Tribes are too politically powerful in WA and it will never happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 04:54:41 PM
The “In Common With” language is what I believe could be argued.
In common with when? lol.

You keep intentionally missing the entire argument.You say in common with i say when.
when the treaty was agreed upon they were in common with.

anyone find those fishing and hunting regs from 1855  yet?

To point out another fact.

the time from then to now has changed for the tribes in a very negative way as far as hunting goes,they have lost a lot of rights and opportunity.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: full choke on December 03, 2019, 05:07:56 PM
 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 05:09:32 PM
The uneducated on subjects usually  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 03, 2019, 06:50:28 PM
The uneducated on subjects usually  :chuckle:

The “In Common With” language is what I believe could be argued.
In common with when? lol.

You keep intentionally missing the entire argument.You say in common with i say when.
when the treaty was agreed upon they were in common with.

anyone find those fishing and hunting regs from 1855  yet?

To point out another fact.

the time from then to now has changed for the tribes in a very negative way as far as hunting goes,they have lost a lot of rights and opportunity.


Please expand on what has been lost.   



Edit for...…………….. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 07:01:03 PM
not yet.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 03, 2019, 07:02:04 PM
Here we go
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 07:17:54 PM
Ok,Here we go.

Ceded land has been sold off to private owners since 1855.Tribal cannot hunt private (claimed) land without permission from the owner.Towns for non native have been built and expanded upon drastically reducing the ceded lands.

I FEEL THAT'S ENOUGH EXPLANATION IF YOU DON'T SEE HOW THEY HAVE LOST A LOT OF HUNTING RIGHTS AND OPPORTUNITY SINCE THE TREATY THEN THERE IS NO HELPING YOU SEE THE TRUTH.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Gobble Doc on December 03, 2019, 07:52:32 PM
No time like the present to unload those big rocks in the road.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: hunter399 on December 03, 2019, 08:05:04 PM
I think the open and unclaimed land needs to stop.
Anybody looked at a map lately ,there is no unclaimed land.
Back when the treaty was wrote I'm sure there was plenty of unclaimed land .

As far as off the reservation hunting,tribes and WDFW need to agree to disagree.on a number of permits for the tribe yearly.That way management and enforcement of Washington resources can take place.as of today I don't see any unclaimed land every square inch in this state has been claimed by somebody.Maybe if this was explained to tribe that you may lose all hunting off the reservation rights.Maybe an agreement on a set number of animals a year could be hashed out.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 08:09:12 PM
Are we gonna start talking about corner crossing now?

ABOUT TO GO FULL CIRCLE ON ALL THE WOES OF LIVING IN WA. STATE. This checker board state gives it to every user group.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idaho guy on December 03, 2019, 08:10:16 PM
The problem with of course being that white slave owners would routinely rape Indian slaves and then enslave their children. So if you are going to say someone has to be 100% Native American in order to get treaty rights that’s going to be difficult. I have first hand accounts of a Native American woman who was spit on and called half breed by her classmates and teachers while attending school in the 50s and 60s. She should not be considered Native American though cause a white man raped her mom? The tribes are autonomous nations and can decide, like most autonomous nations, who gets to become a member or citizen. As much as I don’t like Obama I don’t ever recall someone disparaging him because of his white ancestry yet people would disparage him because of his black skin color and ancestry. Not saying he isn’t half white just saying that to a lot of people that still means he is black.

I was going to try and not say any more but I have a big mouth so here it goes.

Yes Natives have treaty rights on hunting and fishing.  Here's my problem, What is a native and what is not?  We have to honor their rights and treaties but they get to determine who has these rights.  Stay with me here.  After a little research I found that to be a member of the Yakima tribe you have to be 25% native.  Muckelshoot tribe is 10%.  In the past, your % had to be higher.  They get to make these rules and they are fluid in that they can change the percentage as they choose.  So when a Muckelshoot with 10% native blood gets to hunt, what is the other 90% of him or her doing?  Poaching???

100% natives should be able to keep their treaty rights.  Anything less is a wicked evil American like the rest of us!  If this rule was followed the problem would be solved.

Like Obama, supposed to be are first black president.  Nonsense!  He was half white!  So I guess people in this country get to choose and pick what % nationality they get to be determining on what special interest or benefit it will get them.  Hogwash!  This is Racism at its finest.  But we are called racist by talking about it and or challenging the validity of it all.
   


Dvolmer  :tup: well said. Platensko what?? White slave owners “routinely” raped Indian slaves? I don’t think white people even owned Native American slaves in a routine or large amount. Although there were slaves in many territories like Carolinas native slaves were illegal by the 1600s. Many tribes in southwestern America did “routinely”own black slaves though. Obama was half white but was only identified as a black man does that seem right? Tiger woods is more Asian than black but everyone ( not Tiger mostly media) identified him only as black man. I do think that’s a weird twist on racism. How about if we all start identifying as Americans and quit obsessing on skin color? Can’t do that certain groups get too many benefits obsessing on our skin color and differences be a lot better if we just focused on our similarities mostly that were all just Americans. Most of our ancestry is a little bit of everything.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: hunter399 on December 03, 2019, 08:14:50 PM
Are we gonna start talking about corner crossing now?

ABOUT TO GO FULL CIRCLE ON ALL THE WOES OF LIVING IN WA. STATE. This checker board state gives it to every user group.
Well oh mah lets see a map of some unclaimed land in Washington.Just cause it's owned by the state,blm,national forest,ect doesn't make it unclaimed,back in the early days I'm sure it was but not now.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 08:22:22 PM
Are we gonna start talking about corner crossing now?

ABOUT TO GO FULL CIRCLE ON ALL THE WOES OF LIVING IN WA. STATE. This checker board state gives it to every user group.
Well oh mah lets see a map of some unclaimed land in Washington.Just cause it's owned by the state,blm,national forest,ect doesn't make it unclaimed,back in the early days I'm sure it was but not now.
I am not gonna answer to this because you obviously have not read what ceded lands are,and what they are allowed to hunt per their treaty rights.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: LongBomb on December 03, 2019, 08:23:47 PM
.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: dvolmer on December 03, 2019, 08:31:31 PM
LT Murray land was owned by LT Murray and upon his death he donated it to the state of Washington for public use. It was private when he owned it and he gave it to the state. Joe Watt canyon is in LT Murray. So how can the natives claim this as unclaimed property?  All other states except Washington and a small part of Oregon don’t have this problem. Natives can make up the rules on their own reservations but the minute they step off of their reservations they follow the same rules as the rest of the US citizens. This is due to the liberal judges in our liberal state and how they have ruled over time and interpreted the treaties. If you read the treaties that were written in the 1800’s they are very open to interpretation. The natives will hunt in the most modern way possible but show up in court in feathers and loin clothes beating their drums and chanting. Liberal judges and liberal juries look at them and immediately claim that the poor natives should be left alone. It’s all sort of a big sham!  But I will say now, it will NEVER change. For the exact reason that other states will manage their wolves. The state of Washington will never let us manage our wolves. It is the liberal mentality that runs this state and it is that mentality that will determine our dealings with the natives. The elk could be on the endangered species list and natives will still be able to do anything they want too just like wolves could be eating children on the way to school and it will still be against the law to kill the furry cute little rascals.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idaho guy on December 03, 2019, 08:36:24 PM
Close the gate :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: HillHound on December 03, 2019, 08:36:40 PM
Hit the nail on the head there
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: millerwheeler on December 03, 2019, 08:39:15 PM
Are we gonna start talking about corner crossing now?

ABOUT TO GO FULL CIRCLE ON ALL THE WOES OF LIVING IN WA. STATE. This checker board state gives it to every user group.

 Totally fine with corner crossing  just not natives over taking
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Mudman on December 03, 2019, 08:39:50 PM
 :yeah:  We all know how it works...  Stack the courts with Liberal Judges who write their own laws and Screw every thing else.  Rocks eh?  Hmm.  Lol.  Is that considered littering yet? :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: millerwheeler on December 03, 2019, 08:45:05 PM
The “In Common With” language is what I believe could be argued.
In common with when? lol.

You keep intentionally missing the entire argument.You say in common with i say when.
when the treaty was agreed upon they were in common with.

anyone find those fishing and hunting regs from 1855  yet?

To point out another fact.

the time from then to now has changed for the tribes in a very negative way as far as hunting goes,they have lost a lot of rights and opportunity.


 What in the @@@@ has been lost and opportunities have been takin away .???? There's radios , gps, Google earth , onx , y'all have more access than anyone give me a break . Rifles that can shoot 1000 yards easily optics that you can spot a flea on  a e elk butt !!!! Not to mention I'm not getting casino checks and I'm paying for tags .
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 08:49:23 PM
keep reading past the spot you picked up that thread i explained it.

All i see is you guys picking up the unclaimed but not seeing or understanding the open part.  :bash: if its public and open to you and me its open to them.

WHERES MY CRAYONS?  :bash:


ITS LIKE MSM TALKING POINTS ON HERE WITH THIS.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: emac on December 03, 2019, 09:09:51 PM
Let's see if i remember correctly when the treaties were written, and i may be wrong, but i don't think there were in elk in Washington.  I know for a fact there weren't any in the blues.  White man brought them in by train from Yellowstone. So maybe natives shouldn't be allowed to hunt them without buying a hunting license and tag.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 09:15:25 PM
They were here ad the numbers dwindled from natural causes,the tribes were a huge part in bringing them back by train.


LEWIS AND CLARK HAVE EVEN WRITTEN ABOUT THEM HERE.

What happened to history in school and when did it happen here in WA.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 03, 2019, 09:27:44 PM
I dunno man. I quit after seeing someone said slavery of Native americans was outlawed in the 1600s. I mean there is a thing called google and the internet. Didnt own them routinely?? There was a whole economy based on shipping Native slaves to the indies. I wasnt until the late 1700s that african american slaves came over in greater numbers and native american slaves were intermingled with the recently brought african slaves. If you had even 1/4th african blood you could be a slave. Of course the white slave owners were super benevolent. We all know how well slaves were treated.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 03, 2019, 09:30:58 PM
Please for the love of god lock the dang gate
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2019, 09:33:48 PM
https://www.historylink.org/File/5556

here they speak of the elk in WA State.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 04, 2019, 06:18:19 AM
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ceded


So if the ceded lands were surrendered by the tribes, They gave them up, They were not "taken" away...

just something to think about
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idaho guy on December 04, 2019, 06:56:27 AM
I dunno man. I quit after seeing someone said slavery of Native americans was outlawed in the 1600s. I mean there is a thing called google and the internet. Didnt own them routinely?? There was a whole economy based on shipping Native slaves to the indies. I wasnt until the late 1700s that african american slaves came over in greater numbers and native american slaves were intermingled with the recently brought african slaves. If you had even 1/4th african blood you could be a slave. Of course the white slave owners were super benevolent. We all know how well slaves were treated.
     

This will freak you out my undergraduate degree is in history from Montana state. I could be tracking kids history in high school  :yike: fortunately I went to grad school and have a different career. As many as one quarter of Pacific Northwest Tribe’s were slaves. Not slaves of super evil Europeans but of other tribes when Europeans first arrived. Southwestern Native American tribes “routinely “ owned African American slaves. Since you do all your research on google then google slavery and the five civilized tribes. Native Americans were made to be slaves by Europeans but also by other native tribes before and after white people  arrived. In some territory like Carolina native Americans as slaves were outlawed late 1600s but continued elsewhere. Look up Irish slavery too.Or Keep googling up stuff so you can have some more white guilt but the reality is tons of terrible stuff was done to all races by ALL races back then. We would be a greater country if we could get over it and just start being Americans. Sorry for the rant Somebody please close the gate!!
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: ballpark on December 04, 2019, 07:06:09 AM
I dunno man. I quit after seeing someone said slavery of Native americans was outlawed in the 1600s. I mean there is a thing called google and the internet. Didnt own them routinely?? There was a whole economy based on shipping Native slaves to the indies. I wasnt until the late 1700s that african american slaves came over in greater numbers and native american slaves were intermingled with the recently brought african slaves. If you had even 1/4th african blood you could be a slave. Of course the white slave owners were super benevolent. We all know how well slaves were treated.
     

This will freak you out my undergraduate degree is in history from Montana state. I could be tracking kids history in high school  :yike: fortunately I went to grad school and have a different career. As many as one quarter of Pacific Northwest Tribe’s were slaves. Not slaves of super evil Europeans but of other tribes when Europeans first arrived. Southwestern Native American tribes “routinely “ owned African American slaves. Since you do all your research on google then google slavery and the five civilized tribes. Native Americans were made to be slaves by Europeans but also by other native tribes before and after white people  arrived. In some territory like Carolina native Americans as slaves were outlawed late 1600s but continued elsewhere. Look up Irish slavery too.Or Keep googling up stuff so you can have some more white guilt but the reality is tons of terrible stuff was done to all races by ALL races back then. We would be a greater country if we could get over it and just start being Americans. Sorry for the rant Somebody please close the gate!!

Well said and I doubt some will do the research.   To the original post - we need to reduce motor vehicle access to some of these sensitive habitats :tup:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Tiger01 on December 04, 2019, 07:15:23 AM
Close the gate
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: birddogdad on December 04, 2019, 07:22:47 AM
this thread made me laugh.. saving game, ethical hunting was proposed and tribal chest pounding with immediate red herrings and excuses were thrown.. terrible stance to want to "use treaties" to just be exactly what every ethical hunter complains about and not see the error in your ways. Pause and reflect on why there is such negativity toward this kind of activity.

WDFW needs to grow some and very much course correct this unethical mentality especially with predator reintro!
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: ballpark on December 04, 2019, 07:27:56 AM
this thread made me laugh.. saving game, ethical hunting was proposed and tribal chest pounding with immediate red herrings and excuses were thrown.. terrible stance to want to "use treaties" to just be exactly what every ethical hunter complains about and not see the error in your ways. Pause and reflect on why there is such negativity toward this kind of activity.

WDFW needs to grow some and very much course correct this unethical mentality especially with predator reintro!

Being willing to acknowledge there is a problem will never happen when you can do whatever you want, wherever you want.  The mentality of what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine all be damned seems to be the norm in our state. :bash:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jstone on December 04, 2019, 07:50:21 AM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: jstone on December 04, 2019, 07:52:14 AM
Instead of moving on, making one better in life. It is easier to play the victim. Unfortunately this is the way society is going. Backwards
People want change and to be equal but don’t want to work together to make it happen.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idahohuntr on December 04, 2019, 07:57:32 AM
I think we all win if there is better collaboration and co-management of a shared resource.  I imagine nearly all of us have that general goal in common.

That said - there is a lot of misunderstanding and incorrect information regarding Treaties.

The liberal judges/liberal courts favoring Tribes argument...I disagree.  Look at the most recent landmark Treaty hunting case out of Wyoming - majority opinion by Gorsuch - a conservative justice, appointed by a conservative President (Trump).

"In Common With" - SCOTUS has ruled on that many times, including in the last session.  It has not been interpreted by the courts as meaning they are "allowed" to have the same rights as US citizens.  This would be silly in light of US Citizenship of Native Americans.  I don't care if any particular person agrees/disagrees with this interpretation...its very solid and the legal precedent is well established.

"Open and Unclaimed lands" - This one has not been narrowly or strictly defined by the courts; however, a few SCOTUS decisions have provided some side boards...in general, public lands not put to a use that is inconsistent with hunting/fishing are generally considered open and unclaimed.  So, secure areas, defense sites, the White House lawn...while public lands, those would not be open and unclaimed lands.  Undeveloped public lands where the general public can also hunt...almost certainly going to fall within the definition of open and unclaimed.

Now...there are some basic tenants of how Tribal treaties are interpreted by the Courts...which might provide some background as to how courts come to their decisions:
-Treaties are to be interpreted as the Indians would have understood them.  For example, in our culture "right" and "privilege" have wildly different meanings...but when interpreting Treaties courts have acknowledged Indians would not have discerned between those two words...so when a Treaty says a right of taking fish and a privilege of hunting, grazing...both are viewed as a "right".
-In acknowledgement that Treaties were negotiated in a language foreign to Tribes, gray areas/ambiguities are to be interpreted in favor of the Tribe
-Treaty rights were reserved and Tribes have always had them - they are not a grant of rights from the US
-Only Congress can abrogate treaties/treaty rights

Much more I'm forgetting...but hopefully this clarifies where we are with Treaty issues...a big deal in most western states. 
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Platensek-po on December 04, 2019, 08:47:17 AM
I dunno man. I quit after seeing someone said slavery of Native americans was outlawed in the 1600s. I mean there is a thing called google and the internet. Didnt own them routinely?? There was a whole economy based on shipping Native slaves to the indies. I wasnt until the late 1700s that african american slaves came over in greater numbers and native american slaves were intermingled with the recently brought african slaves. If you had even 1/4th african blood you could be a slave. Of course the white slave owners were super benevolent. We all know how well slaves were treated.
     

This will freak you out my undergraduate degree is in history from Montana state. I could be tracking kids history in high school  :yike: fortunately I went to grad school and have a different career. As many as one quarter of Pacific Northwest Tribe’s were slaves. Not slaves of super evil Europeans but of other tribes when Europeans first arrived. Southwestern Native American tribes “routinely “ owned African American slaves. Since you do all your research on google then google slavery and the five civilized tribes. Native Americans were made to be slaves by Europeans but also by other native tribes before and after white people  arrived. In some territory like Carolina native Americans as slaves were outlawed late 1600s but continued elsewhere. Look up Irish slavery too.Or Keep googling up stuff so you can have some more white guilt but the reality is tons of terrible stuff was done to all races by ALL races back then. We would be a greater country if we could get over it and just start being Americans. Sorry for the rant Somebody please close the gate!!

I don’t recall ever saying the native Americans didn’t own slaves... I do recall you saying that white Europeans didn’t routinely own native slaves yet estimates are between 2 to 5 million native Americans sold into the European slave trade. You also stated that Native American slavery was outlawed in the 1600s. This is only time of the Carolinas aNd the practice still continues there and continued in places such as California into the 1860s. I know that others have owned slaves I was merely making a point that to request someone be 100% Native American in order to be a tribal member is seriously flawed given our nations history. I don’t have any “white guilt” but I do understand what happened in our nations history. As someone who studied history in college it would seem that you have either forgotten that information or chose to ignore it. Even you understood that in your first post you were wrong and changed what you said in the second post.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: boneaddict on December 04, 2019, 08:50:21 AM
So we aren’t closing the gate because we need to get the slaves out first.....  still trying to wrap my head around this without reading 10 pages of O mah talk to himself.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: kirkl on December 04, 2019, 09:07:23 AM
So we aren’t closing the gate because we need to get the slaves out first.....  still trying to wrap my head around this without reading 10 pages of O mah talk to himself.

 :chuckle: that was good.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: pawpaw1934 on December 04, 2019, 09:11:53 AM
They must be out of locks at the local hardware stores...otherwise someone that cares about the game would just go buy one and solve the problem....if not at least for a short time.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 04, 2019, 10:35:02 AM
They must be out of locks at the local hardware stores...otherwise someone that cares about the game would just go buy one and solve the problem....if not at least for a short time.

FWIW, gates are usually locked open too.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: dvolmer on December 04, 2019, 10:45:32 AM
Sadly to say, closing the gate will do no good.  A few years back out here at Hanford where I work, some native hunters trespassed on what I think was Roberts Ranch (now Blackrock) at the time (might have been one of the Silver Dollar Ranches) and drove through their land (private and heavily posted) until they came to the fence of the Hanford Site and then cut or ran over the Hanford fence and killed some elk.  Hanford Patrol was out with their machine guns.  They were caught at the time and the WDFW and the USFW tried to throw the book at them.  It went to court and was thrown out by the liberal west side judge.  It was after this and a few other incidents where WDFW tried to prosecute what they determined as illegal native hunting and it was again thrown out by the liberal judges that the WDFW decided to not even attempt to prosecute illegal native hunting.  The reason for this was that their budget was being consumed in legal fees and every time it went to court they lost due to reasons I have mentioned in earlier posts on this thread.  One of my hunting partners that works for WDFW as a biologist told me that they and enforcement have been counseled to leave the natives alone and to turn their back on whatever they are doing because they are literally untouchable by the law and the justice system in Washington State.  Remember folks, when you challenge them in court, you are paying double because it is your tax money that is paying for their lawyers and its your Fish and Wildlife money that is paying for WDFW's lawyers.

You could lock the gates all you want and they can cut the locks off of the gates all they want and nothing will be done legally to them.  You could have a girl scout troop on a trailer at Joe Watt feeding the elk in the middle of the winter and the natives can come out and drive their truck into the middle of the feeding herd and shoot as many elk as they want and their is nothing that WDFW can do.  Their hands are tied!

After the court battles of the last 20 or so years and their outcomes, the native hunters feel they are untouchable.  They could care less what we think or say and look at these posts and laugh to themselves.  I could go on and on with stories that my hunting partner has told me that would shock you all to death but I can't due to him getting into a lot of trouble from the "Brass" of WDFW.  Not only is WDFW telling their employees to turn their backs on what is going on but they are being told by the higher-ups to not make any negative comments to the public on the situation because they think it will just cause hate and discontent.  We are in a bad place here with this and its only going to get worse as trophy antlers increase in monetary value and the business side of selling the meat (especially elk meat) increases.  25 years ago when a 6x6 bull antlers weren't worth much and you hung them on the barn wall and wild game was plentiful and not in demand, the natives hunted to just feed the family and for some religious reasons.  That has all changed as the trophy hunting has exploded and the price of a mature bull elk set of anthers has reached over a thousand dollars plus in value and the demand for organic wild game meat has went through the roof now that everyone has jumped on the healthy food bandwagon.  Remember, when a NY City guy wants to buy some jerky and he finds an opportunity buy some free ranging, non-steroid, organic, low cholesterol, wild game meat that was killed and processed by a real Native American Indian, he will pay three times the price than the Oh-Boy-Oberta jerky next to it and will go home feeling good about himself because he helped support some poor abused Native American that has been on hard times!  This he knows to be true because his liberal college professor told him so!!!
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: 2MANY on December 04, 2019, 10:49:02 AM
I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind
All my friends call me Bear Claw
The Village Cheaftin' is my paw-paw
He gets his orders from my maw-maw
She makes him walk the line
You can find me in my wigwam
I'll be beatin' on my tom-tom
Pull out the pipe and smoke you some
Hey and pass it around
'Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind
I ain't lookin' for trouble
We can ride my pony double
Make your little heart bubble
Lord like a glass of wine
I remember the medicine man
He caught runnin' water in my hands
Drug me around by my headband
Said I wasn't her kind
'Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind
I can kill a deer or buffalo
With just my arrow and my hickory bow
From a hundred yards don't you know
I do it all the time
They all gather 'round my teepee
Late at night tryin' to catch a peek at me
In nothin' but my buffalo briefs
I got 'em standin' in line
'Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind
Cherokee people
Cherokee tribe
So proud to live
So proud to die

LOCK THE GATE.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: hunter399 on December 04, 2019, 11:11:36 AM
MAKE ELK HUNTING GREAT AGAIN
LOCK THE GATE.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 04, 2019, 11:48:41 AM
This thread is doing nothing but splitting this forum in two and I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of our Native members are feeling maligned. I'm out. This is going nowhere. Have a nice day all.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: HillHound on December 04, 2019, 12:24:06 PM
Yep just like all these threads. Going nowhere. Lock the gate and lock the thread!
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: MADMAX on December 04, 2019, 12:38:15 PM
 :yeah:
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idahohuntr on December 04, 2019, 12:41:09 PM
Sadly to say, closing the gate will do no good.  A few years back out here at Hanford where I work, some native hunters trespassed on what I think was Roberts Ranch (now Blackrock) at the time (might have been one of the Silver Dollar Ranches) and drove through their land (private and heavily posted) until they came to the fence of the Hanford Site and then cut or ran over the Hanford fence and killed some elk.  Hanford Patrol was out with their machine guns.  They were caught at the time and the WDFW and the USFW tried to throw the book at them.  It went to court and was thrown out by the liberal west side judge.  It was after this and a few other incidents where WDFW tried to prosecute what they determined as illegal native hunting and it was again thrown out by the liberal judges that the WDFW decided to not even attempt to prosecute illegal native hunting.  The reason for this was that their budget was being consumed in legal fees and every time it went to court they lost due to reasons I have mentioned in earlier posts on this thread.  One of my hunting partners that works for WDFW as a biologist told me that they and enforcement have been counseled to leave the natives alone and to turn their back on whatever they are doing because they are literally untouchable by the law and the justice system in Washington State.  Remember folks, when you challenge them in court, you are paying double because it is your tax money that is paying for their lawyers and its your Fish and Wildlife money that is paying for WDFW's lawyers.
If a land management agency decided to close motor vehicle access to an area, in a non-discriminatory, non-punitive manner, I do not see any Tribe having the ability to make a legal case requiring they be given motorized access.  In the exact case you mention, the Tribal member was successfully prosecuted for off road vehicle violations. So, its not accurate to describe them as untouchable and they can cut locks off gates etc.  Land management agencies could absolutely close vehicle access - but Tribal members would still almost certainly be assured access to the public lands to hunt...just not by vehicle.

The DoJ declined to pursue charges related to hunting/killing elk on the Hanford Reserve area because they were not confident they could successfully argue those lands as not being "open and unclaimed" - and the ultimately determined not charging was a better course of action than charging and losing in court. 

I agree with WDFW not engaging on Tribal treaty fishing/hunting enforcement issues...not because Tribes are "untouchable", but I have no confidence in WDFW and their law enforcement folks who I am convinced are not nearly savvy enough to be playing in that arena. 
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: dvolmer on December 04, 2019, 12:47:38 PM
This thread is doing nothing but splitting this forum in two and I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of our Native members are feeling maligned. I'm out. This is going nowhere. Have a nice day all.

NOT!  They don't feel maligned.  They are to busy elk hunting to care! 

Ok, that is probably over the line.  I am sure that the tribes have plenty of guys and gals that want to do what is right.  But even so, they don't want as a group to put any guidelines or reasonable limits that would stop any of their over the top behavior.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: logger on December 04, 2019, 02:04:02 PM
Sadly to say, closing the gate will do no good.  A few years back out here at Hanford where I work, some native hunters trespassed on what I think was Roberts Ranch (now Blackrock) at the time (might have been one of the Silver Dollar Ranches) and drove through their land (private and heavily posted) until they came to the fence of the Hanford Site and then cut or ran over the Hanford fence and killed some elk.  Hanford Patrol was out with their machine guns.  They were caught at the time and the WDFW and the USFW tried to throw the book at them.  It went to court and was thrown out by the liberal west side judge.  It was after this and a few other incidents where WDFW tried to prosecute what they determined as illegal native hunting and it was again thrown out by the liberal judges that the WDFW decided to not even attempt to prosecute illegal native hunting.  The reason for this was that their budget was being consumed in legal fees and every time it went to court they lost due to reasons I have mentioned in earlier posts on this thread.  One of my hunting partners that works for WDFW as a biologist told me that they and enforcement have been counseled to leave the natives alone and to turn their back on whatever they are doing because they are literally untouchable by the law and the justice system in Washington State.  Remember folks, when you challenge them in court, you are paying double because it is your tax money that is paying for their lawyers and its your Fish and Wildlife money that is paying for WDFW's lawyers.
If a land management agency decided to close motor vehicle access to an area, in a non-discriminatory, non-punitive manner, I do not see any Tribe having the ability to make a legal case requiring they be given motorized access.  In the exact case you mention, the Tribal member was successfully prosecuted for off road vehicle violations. So, its not accurate to describe them as untouchable and they can cut locks off gates etc.  Land management agencies could absolutely close vehicle access - but Tribal members would still almost certainly be assured access to the public lands to hunt...just not by vehicle.

The DoJ declined to pursue charges related to hunting/killing elk on the Hanford Reserve area because they were not confident they could successfully argue those lands as not being "open and unclaimed" - and the ultimately determined not charging was a better course of action than charging and losing in court. 

I agree with WDFW not engaging on Tribal treaty fishing/hunting enforcement issues...not because Tribes are "untouchable", but I have no confidence in WDFW and their law enforcement folks who I am convinced are not nearly savvy enough to be playing in that arena.
   several tribes have keys, elbe hills is a game escapement area, however 6 tribes have keys to the gates
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: idahohuntr on December 04, 2019, 02:42:29 PM
Sadly to say, closing the gate will do no good.  A few years back out here at Hanford where I work, some native hunters trespassed on what I think was Roberts Ranch (now Blackrock) at the time (might have been one of the Silver Dollar Ranches) and drove through their land (private and heavily posted) until they came to the fence of the Hanford Site and then cut or ran over the Hanford fence and killed some elk.  Hanford Patrol was out with their machine guns.  They were caught at the time and the WDFW and the USFW tried to throw the book at them.  It went to court and was thrown out by the liberal west side judge.  It was after this and a few other incidents where WDFW tried to prosecute what they determined as illegal native hunting and it was again thrown out by the liberal judges that the WDFW decided to not even attempt to prosecute illegal native hunting.  The reason for this was that their budget was being consumed in legal fees and every time it went to court they lost due to reasons I have mentioned in earlier posts on this thread.  One of my hunting partners that works for WDFW as a biologist told me that they and enforcement have been counseled to leave the natives alone and to turn their back on whatever they are doing because they are literally untouchable by the law and the justice system in Washington State.  Remember folks, when you challenge them in court, you are paying double because it is your tax money that is paying for their lawyers and its your Fish and Wildlife money that is paying for WDFW's lawyers.
If a land management agency decided to close motor vehicle access to an area, in a non-discriminatory, non-punitive manner, I do not see any Tribe having the ability to make a legal case requiring they be given motorized access.  In the exact case you mention, the Tribal member was successfully prosecuted for off road vehicle violations. So, its not accurate to describe them as untouchable and they can cut locks off gates etc.  Land management agencies could absolutely close vehicle access - but Tribal members would still almost certainly be assured access to the public lands to hunt...just not by vehicle.

The DoJ declined to pursue charges related to hunting/killing elk on the Hanford Reserve area because they were not confident they could successfully argue those lands as not being "open and unclaimed" - and the ultimately determined not charging was a better course of action than charging and losing in court. 

I agree with WDFW not engaging on Tribal treaty fishing/hunting enforcement issues...not because Tribes are "untouchable", but I have no confidence in WDFW and their law enforcement folks who I am convinced are not nearly savvy enough to be playing in that arena.
   several tribes have keys, elbe hills is a game escapement area, however 6 tribes have keys to the gates
If they have keys then presumably they were given permission by the land manager.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: Oh Mah on December 04, 2019, 02:44:33 PM
So we aren’t closing the gate because we need to get the slaves out first.....  still trying to wrap my head around this without reading 10 pages of O mah talk to himself.
you dont know what your talking about,again.i have been replied to by uneducated members on every post except of course the one where i asked for 10 pictures. have a nice day.
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: logger on December 04, 2019, 02:48:27 PM
Sadly to say, closing the gate will do no good.  A few years back out here at Hanford where I work, some native hunters trespassed on what I think was Roberts Ranch (now Blackrock) at the time (might have been one of the Silver Dollar Ranches) and drove through their land (private and heavily posted) until they came to the fence of the Hanford Site and then cut or ran over the Hanford fence and killed some elk.  Hanford Patrol was out with their machine guns.  They were caught at the time and the WDFW and the USFW tried to throw the book at them.  It went to court and was thrown out by the liberal west side judge.  It was after this and a few other incidents where WDFW tried to prosecute what they determined as illegal native hunting and it was again thrown out by the liberal judges that the WDFW decided to not even attempt to prosecute illegal native hunting.  The reason for this was that their budget was being consumed in legal fees and every time it went to court they lost due to reasons I have mentioned in earlier posts on this thread.  One of my hunting partners that works for WDFW as a biologist told me that they and enforcement have been counseled to leave the natives alone and to turn their back on whatever they are doing because they are literally untouchable by the law and the justice system in Washington State.  Remember folks, when you challenge them in court, you are paying double because it is your tax money that is paying for their lawyers and its your Fish and Wildlife money that is paying for WDFW's lawyers.
If a land management agency decided to close motor vehicle access to an area, in a non-discriminatory, non-punitive manner, I do not see any Tribe having the ability to make a legal case requiring they be given motorized access.  In the exact case you mention, the Tribal member was successfully prosecuted for off road vehicle violations. So, its not accurate to describe them as untouchable and they can cut locks off gates etc.  Land management agencies could absolutely close vehicle access - but Tribal members would still almost certainly be assured access to the public lands to hunt...just not by vehicle.

The DoJ declined to pursue charges related to hunting/killing elk on the Hanford Reserve area because they were not confident they could successfully argue those lands as not being "open and unclaimed" - and the ultimately determined not charging was a better course of action than charging and losing in court. 

I agree with WDFW not engaging on Tribal treaty fishing/hunting enforcement issues...not because Tribes are "untouchable", but I have no confidence in WDFW and their law enforcement folks who I am convinced are not nearly savvy enough to be playing in that arena.
   several tribes have keys, elbe hills is a game escapement area, however 6 tribes have keys to the gates
If they have keys then presumably they were given permission by the land manager. I would assume so as well
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: trophyhunt on December 04, 2019, 02:48:35 PM
This thread is doing nothing but splitting this forum in two and I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of our Native members are feeling maligned. I'm out. This is going nowhere. Have a nice day all.

NOT!  They don't feel maligned.  They are to busy elk hunting to care! 

Ok, that is probably over the line.  I am sure that the tribes have plenty of guys and gals that want to do what is right.  But even so, they don't want as a group to put any guidelines or reasonable limits that would stop any of their over the top behavior.
Its true that a few are doing major damage to OUR herds, these threads do Not need to be locked because some might get their feelings hurt!!  These type of threads should be brought up daily till we finally get some results, I’m not under the dilution that just talking on here can do anything, but if it’s the hottest subject, mods should let it continue.  I think locals need to do a better job at getting videos and pictures of the same trucks killing multiple elk/deer, it would be my obsession if I lived closer. 
Title: Re: Now that it snowed they need to lock up Watt Canyon
Post by: boneaddict on December 12, 2019, 07:28:11 PM
Gates are being closed in the morning
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