Hunting Washington Forum

Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: dmoua on June 10, 2020, 01:34:48 PM


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Title: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on June 10, 2020, 01:34:48 PM
Well after months of buying parts and waiting for things to come in; I finally got everything I needed to drop it off to Shawn at Defensive Edge.

Caliber: 300WSM
Barrel: Proof Research 24” 1:10 .308
Action: Remington 700 SA/ magnum bolt face
Trigger: Trigger Tech Special
Stock: McMillan Game Scout with Edge fill in Gap Ambush
Scope: Leupold VX6 HD 3-18x50 TMOA
Scope base/ rings: Warne Maxima 2 piece steel/ Med Warne 30mm steel rings
Muzzle Brake: Little *censored* self timing

The goal of this build was to keep it under or around 9lbs. With the math that I did the whole setup should be right around 9.25lbs loaded with a Harris 6-9” Bipod. I know I can get under 9lbs if I went with a different scope but the VX6 is pretty light for what it has to offer plus my brother in law got it for a pretty good deal when he was still working for BassPro.

Shawn will be doing a full bedding job, threading the muzzle, installing a 3” internal magazine, true/ square the action, plus a few other miscellaneous things.

This is my first rodeo with having a custom rifle built so I am super excited.  Hopefully it’ll be done in mid to late September so I can do some load development for it before deer season opens up. Until then it’s time to start shooting the bow and getting ready for Idaho archery elk.

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on June 10, 2020, 05:47:30 PM
Looks like a great build to me!  :tup:

DE will build you a fine shooting rifle and their build times are the fastest of any gunsmith I've ever used.  Unless they have a real big backlog of builds, don't be surprised if Shawn gives you a call much sooner than you expect.  If I recall, my last build only took about a month from drop off to pick up.

Do you have a bullet and powder picked out you want to use or are you still undecided on that?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on June 10, 2020, 06:54:41 PM
Looks like a great build to me!  :tup:

DE will build you a fine shooting rifle and their build times are the fastest of any gunsmith I've ever used.  Unless they have a real big backlog of builds, don't be surprised if Shawn gives you a call much sooner than you expect.  If I recall, my last build only took about a month from drop off to pick up.

Do you have a bullet and powder picked out you want to use or are you still undecided on that?

Thanks, I am leaning towards 175gr VLD’s with H4350. However he is setting it up so that I can run 200gr + if I decide to one day.

It looked like there was quite a few barrels waiting while I was in his shop. However those might be waiting on parts. I supplied 90% of the parts already so hopefully he’ll be able to knock it out sooner than later.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on June 10, 2020, 07:16:49 PM
Surprised your not going with the 185vlds.  With my old 300wm they were the cats meow for hunting range. Quite a bit les wind.  Jmo.   
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 10, 2020, 07:20:56 PM
I've got a lot of experience with the 300 wsm. I'd personally run the 185gr hunting vld and H4831sc. I've killed a lot of stuff with that bullet and it's a performer :twocents:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on June 10, 2020, 08:25:54 PM
Honestly I'm all ears. I decided on H4350 for powder since that's what I have and trying to minimize having to buy other powder but nothing is set in stone. I guess I'll try out them 185's first and see how she shoots when the time comes.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on June 10, 2020, 08:53:34 PM
You’ll be happy you did
I got half pound of h4831sc if you wanna try it.  You can have it
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 10, 2020, 09:13:31 PM
I've tried a lot of stuff in the wsm (I'm on my 3rd barrel). Rl26, n565, imr4350, h4350, imr4831, imr7828ssc, and a few others. H4831sc just gave me the best performance. Good accuracy, single digit es, and temp stable.  My current barrel is a 26" throated long for 215's and a wyatts medium length prc bottom metal. No issues with the heavies eating up case capacity anymore :chuckle:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on June 10, 2020, 09:35:45 PM
I've tried a lot of stuff in the wsm (I'm on my 3rd barrel). Rl26, n565, imr4350, h4350, imr4831, imr7828ssc, and a few others. H4831sc just gave me the best performance. Good accuracy, single digit es, and temp stable.  My current barrel is a 26" throated long for 215's and a wyatts medium length prc bottom metal. No issues with the heavies eating up case capacity anymore :chuckle:
whats the max col for that bottom metal?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on June 10, 2020, 09:58:52 PM
You’ll be happy you did
I got half pound of h4831sc if you wanna try it.  You can have it

Thank you for the offer. When the time comes and you still have it, i’ll  definitely grab it from you.

I've tried a lot of stuff in the wsm (I'm on my 3rd barrel). Rl26, n565, imr4350, h4350, imr4831, imr7828ssc, and a few others. H4831sc just gave me the best performance. Good accuracy, single digit es, and temp stable.  My current barrel is a 26" throated long for 215's and a wyatts medium length prc bottom metal. No issues with the heavies eating up case capacity anymore :chuckle:

That’s great info. That’ll save me  the headache of trying to figure out what powder to try.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: BULLBLASTER on June 11, 2020, 06:25:38 AM
I've tried a lot of stuff in the wsm (I'm on my 3rd barrel). Rl26, n565, imr4350, h4350, imr4831, imr7828ssc, and a few others. H4831sc just gave me the best performance. Good accuracy, single digit es, and temp stable.  My current barrel is a 26" throated long for 215's and a wyatts medium length prc bottom metal. No issues with the heavies eating up case capacity anymore :chuckle:
whats the max col for that bottom metal?
Right at or slightly over 3.2 inches
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 11, 2020, 07:00:11 AM
https://wyattsoutdoor.com/product/short-action-mid-length-prc-kit/


3.235". It takes a bit of modification to work right. Mag well needs opened up and we also opened up the ejection port to the rear but it feeds like a dream.  Loaded to the lands with a 215 berger puts COAL at 3.2"
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: CaNINE on June 11, 2020, 08:09:32 AM
Big fan of the 300WSM. Smart choice. I’ve played around with many bullet / powder combos.  H4831SC has been the best performer for stability and repeatability. I’m currently running the 210 VLD at 2850.  The 180 class bullets are also an excellent choice.  Congratulations on the build. Looking forward to see it coming together and your range/field results.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on June 11, 2020, 09:28:57 AM
Big fan of the 300WSM. Smart choice. I’ve played around with many bullet / powder combos.  H4831SC has been the best performer for stability and repeatability. I’m currently running the 210 VLD at 2850.  The 180 class bullets are also an excellent choice.  Congratulations on the build. Looking forward to see it coming together and your range/field results.

Thanks, hopefully it'll shoot as good as it's going to look.

What barrel length are you running? Also is there any other company that offers Brass for the 300 WSM besides Hornady and Norma?

Karl that's one nice looking rig. How's the recoil with it being so light?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 11, 2020, 10:02:03 AM
Big fan of the 300WSM. Smart choice. I’ve played around with many bullet / powder combos.  H4831SC has been the best performer for stability and repeatability. I’m currently running the 210 VLD at 2850.  The 180 class bullets are also an excellent choice.  Congratulations on the build. Looking forward to see it coming together and your range/field results.

Thanks, hopefully it'll shoot as good as it's going to look.

What barrel length are you running? Also is there any other company that offers Brass for the 300 WSM besides Hornady and Norma?

Karl that's one nice looking rig. How's the recoil with it being so light?
that 4 port beast brake tames it right down. No issues spotting hits with proper recoil management.

I've been using Norma brass but its non existent these days. Just deprimed all my brass the other night that has nine firings on it and there was still that nice little pop to unseat the primers so they still have some life left. They get annealed every firing.  No clue how they still hold a primer though because I run my stuff pretty hot  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on June 11, 2020, 10:08:19 AM
3.235 is awesome
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 11, 2020, 10:23:22 AM
3.235 is awesome
it feeds better than the 2.99 also. At least in my setup. It feels more like a center feed the way it pushes forward and up. The 2.99 kind of "jumps" up.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 11, 2020, 10:44:43 AM
Karl what action is yours?  Site said it doesnt work with most clones. 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 11, 2020, 10:47:20 AM
Rem 700 short action
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on June 11, 2020, 11:38:40 AM
Big fan of the 300WSM. Smart choice. I’ve played around with many bullet / powder combos.  H4831SC has been the best performer for stability and repeatability. I’m currently running the 210 VLD at 2850.  The 180 class bullets are also an excellent choice.  Congratulations on the build. Looking forward to see it coming together and your range/field results.

Thanks, hopefully it'll shoot as good as it's going to look.

What barrel length are you running? Also is there any other company that offers Brass for the 300 WSM besides Hornady and Norma?

Karl that's one nice looking rig. How's the recoil with it being so light?
that 4 port beast brake tames it right down. No issues spotting hits with proper recoil management.

I've been using Norma brass but its non existent these days. Just deprimed all my brass the other night that has nine firings on it and there was still that nice little pop to unseat the primers so they still have some life left. They get annealed every firing.  No clue how they still hold a primer though because I run my stuff pretty hot  :chuckle:


That's awesome. Hopefully the Little Ba$tard will do it's job.

I guess I'll just have to stick to the Hornady brass I have for now. I'll be annealing after each firing just to help keep them as consistent as possible.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 11, 2020, 11:52:24 AM
The LB is a great brake. Itll be fine especially running the 180ish type bullets.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on June 11, 2020, 03:00:41 PM
https://wyattsoutdoor.com/product/short-action-mid-length-prc-kit/
3.235". It takes a bit of modification to work right. Mag well needs opened up and we also opened up the ejection port to the rear but it feeds like a dream.  Loaded to the lands with a 215 berger puts COAL at 3.2"

I saw this on Wyatts website quite some time ago but have yet to talk to anyone that's actually gone with this setup.  Was kind of concerned about how well it functioned but it sounds like it's working very well for you.

Did you send your action to Wyatts, do the work yourself, or have a gunsmith perform all the machine work? 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 11, 2020, 03:09:49 PM
https://wyattsoutdoor.com/product/short-action-mid-length-prc-kit/
3.235". It takes a bit of modification to work right. Mag well needs opened up and we also opened up the ejection port to the rear but it feeds like a dream.  Loaded to the lands with a 215 berger puts COAL at 3.2"

I saw this on Wyatts website quite some time ago but have yet to talk to anyone that's actually gone with this setup.  Was kind of concerned about how well it functioned but it sounds like it's working very well for you.

Did you send your action to Wyatts, do the work yourself, or have a gunsmith perform all the machine work?
Mike at Hells Canyon Armory did all the machine work.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 19, 2020, 02:26:03 PM
The wait is finally over. Picked it up the other day from Defensive Edge. Now the work really begins.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on September 19, 2020, 04:43:42 PM
Looks nice
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Jason on September 19, 2020, 05:20:22 PM
Sweet setup!
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: SkookumHntr on September 19, 2020, 06:05:43 PM
Sweet rig
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Jingles on September 19, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
Sweet looking rig for a righty
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on September 20, 2020, 12:35:10 AM
The wait is finally over. Picked it up the other day from Defensive Edge. Now the work really begins.

Looks great!  Did Shawn shoot it?  Usually he shoots everything before you pick it up.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 20, 2020, 10:11:22 AM
The wait is finally over. Picked it up the other day from Defensive Edge. Now the work really begins.

Looks great!  Did Shawn shoot it?  Usually he shoots everything before you pick it up.

Not that I know of. Didn't feel like getting charged for having my scope mounted so I didn't leave it there.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Magnum_Willys on September 20, 2020, 10:39:05 AM
If you can put your phone on slomo video its easy to tune brake.   I’d start with back 2 open and keep opening until you detect any initial downward movement - you have to look really really close.   
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: CaNINE on September 20, 2020, 01:09:40 PM
Looks like you've got a really good general purpose hunting set up there.  Should serve you very well.  Get in touch with me if you need any help dialing it in. 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 20, 2020, 03:53:41 PM
If you can put your phone on slomo video its easy to tune brake.   I’d start with back 2 open and keep opening until you detect any initial downward movement - you have to look really really close.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

Looks like you've got a really good general purpose hunting set up there.  Should serve you very well.  Get in touch with me if you need any help dialing it in. 

Yes this build will be used for hunting only. I’ll work up a few loads and see what it likes. Thanks for the offer.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Taco280AI on September 20, 2020, 04:16:41 PM
The wait is finally over. Picked it up the other day from Defensive Edge. Now the work really begins.

Looks great!  Did Shawn shoot it?  Usually he shoots everything before you pick it up.

Not that I know of. Didn't feel like getting charged for having my scope mounted so I didn't leave it there.

I would hope he tested it out, seems standard when having one built.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Magnum_Willys on September 20, 2020, 04:46:45 PM
I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

Oops thought you had the Generation 3 brake with the tuneable ports, just noticed it was the Gen 2 that doesn't have em.  . 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 20, 2020, 06:29:49 PM
The wait is finally over. Picked it up the other day from Defensive Edge. Now the work really begins.


Yeah I didn’t think to ask him at all. It just said cleaned on the tag when I picked it up.
Looks great!  Did Shawn shoot it?  Usually he shoots everything before you pick it up.

Not that I know of. Didn't feel like getting charged for having my scope mounted so I didn't leave it there.

I would hope he tested it out, seems standard when having one built.

I would hope so as well.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Magnum_Willys on September 22, 2020, 12:41:44 PM
Sometimes some shootem sometimes some don't.   If its a caliber a smith is familiar with and loads for they probably will shoot it.  If not why bother unless its a service you have paid for and they built into the price?   What will shooting a random factory load or random handload for that matter tell you other than its safe to shoot and they know that already. 

I know how much time and ammo it takes to develop an accurate load - I wouldn't want to pay gunsmith wages for that - but if they have a pet load I will be happy to start with it. 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 23, 2020, 07:07:23 PM
Sometimes some shootem sometimes some don't.   If its a caliber a smith is familiar with and loads for they probably will shoot it.  If not why bother unless its a service you have paid for and they built into the price?   What will shooting a random factory load or random handload for that matter tell you other than its safe to shoot and they know that already. 

I know how much time and ammo it takes to develop an accurate load - I wouldn't want to pay gunsmith wages for that - but if they have a pet load I will be happy to start with it.

I'm not too worried if Shawn test shot the rifle or not. I didn't want to pay money for things that I could do myself ie mounting the scope and load development. I'm pretty sure it'll shoot as good as it looks. The finished work is excellent.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on September 23, 2020, 07:10:21 PM
Sometimes some shootem sometimes some don't.   If its a caliber a smith is familiar with and loads for they probably will shoot it.  If not why bother unless its a service you have paid for and they built into the price?   What will shooting a random factory load or random handload for that matter tell you other than its safe to shoot and they know that already. 

I know how much time and ammo it takes to develop an accurate load - I wouldn't want to pay gunsmith wages for that - but if they have a pet load I will be happy to start with it.

I'm not too worried if Shawn test shot the rifle or not. I didn't want to pay money for things that I could do myself ie mounting the scope and load development. I'm pretty sure it'll shoot as good as it looks. The finished work is excellent.
are you telling us you haven’t shot it yet?!?!?   I’d have had seizures by now not shooting my new toy!!!    Seriously slacking bud 😝
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 23, 2020, 08:51:06 PM
Sometimes some shootem sometimes some don't.   If its a caliber a smith is familiar with and loads for they probably will shoot it.  If not why bother unless its a service you have paid for and they built into the price?   What will shooting a random factory load or random handload for that matter tell you other than its safe to shoot and they know that already. 

I know how much time and ammo it takes to develop an accurate load - I wouldn't want to pay gunsmith wages for that - but if they have a pet load I will be happy to start with it.

I'm not too worried if Shawn test shot the rifle or not. I didn't want to pay money for things that I could do myself ie mounting the scope and load development. I'm pretty sure it'll shoot as good as it looks. The finished work is excellent.
are you telling us you haven’t shot it yet?!?!?   I’d have had seizures by now not shooting my new toy!!!    Seriously slacking bud 😝

Lol tell me about it.

 I've been busy chasing Elk in Idaho with the dang bow. Too bad it's not rifle season or I would have been tagged out already.  :bash:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 24, 2020, 12:19:22 PM
Well first few problems. One I can't even feed the internal magazine from the top. Two I can't even close the bolt on factory 150gr Hornady and Winchester 180gr. It was throated for Berger 215gr. Shouldn't I still be able to shoot factory ammo from this thing? :dunno:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: callturner on September 24, 2020, 12:52:32 PM
I would think so! Go back to your gunsmith and explain.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 24, 2020, 12:55:51 PM
I would think so! Go back to your gunsmith and explain.

I've tried calling twice now but it just goes to the busy tone. I measured the throat with some 185gr Berger VLD hunting and got a max CBTO of 2.148" the max COAL was something around 2.834" with the 185gr Bergers.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: callturner on September 24, 2020, 02:03:13 PM
I would think all should fit , but maybe it was set up for the exact bullet you told him. I had Ron Smith build a barrel for a 338 Lapua and he wanted to know the bullet I was going to shoot. Both weight and length. Another smith cut the chamber though and I just used factory specs for the loaded ammo. Will the shells slide into the chamber at all?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 24, 2020, 02:35:26 PM
I would think all should fit , but maybe it was set up for the exact bullet you told him. I had Ron Smith build a barrel for a 338 Lapua and he wanted to know the bullet I was going to shoot. Both weight and length. Another smith cut the chamber though and I just used factory specs for the loaded ammo. Will the shells slide into the chamber at all?

They’ll slide in but the bolt won’t close. We throated for 215 knowing I will be running 185’s.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on September 24, 2020, 02:54:10 PM
I don't know that this is your problem but VLD type bullets have a much different nose profile than other bullets so it's possible for a lighter weight bullet but with a much less sloping, non VLD type profile, to actually come up with a shorter OAL because a more stubby-ish profile will contact the lands sooner where as a lot of the VLD type will go up inside the throat area before it touches anything.  Hopefully that makes sense.   

Did you have something like a Wyatt's extended mag box installed, sounds like maybe you did?

Nobody likes spending any more money than they have to but since this is a SA WSM build, IMO, you should have considered going with Wyatt's Outdoor SA Mid length kit in this build.  Yes, it would have cost a little more but it would have allowed you to stretch things out to an OAL of 3.200 and based on the conversation I had with Karl back on page 2 these mid length kits are working/feeding very well.  That's not to say what you have won't work but it would have allowed you more flexibility with a SA WSM build.

Remember, they can always go in and add more freebore to get the OAL length you want but unless you plan to single feed you'll also always be limited by magazine length.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 24, 2020, 06:51:15 PM
I don't know that this is your problem but VLD type bullets have a much different nose profile than other bullets so it's possible for a lighter weight bullet but with a much less sloping, non VLD type profile, to actually come up with a shorter OAL because a more stubby-ish profile will contact the lands sooner where as a lot of the VLD type will go up inside the throat area before it touches anything.  Hopefully that makes sense.   

Did you have something like a Wyatt's extended mag box installed, sounds like maybe you did?

Nobody likes spending any more money than they have to but since this is a SA WSM build, IMO, you should have considered going with Wyatt's Outdoor SA Mid length kit in this build.  Yes, it would have cost a little more but it would have allowed you to stretch things out to an OAL of 3.200 and based on the conversation I had with Karl back on page 2 these mid length kits are working/feeding very well.  That's not to say what you have won't work but it would have allowed you more flexibility with a SA WSM build.

Remember, they can always go in and add more freebore to get the OAL length you want but unless you plan to single feed you'll also always be limited by magazine length.

I must have confused myself when he said to throat it for 215’s knowing  I was going to run 185’s in case I wanted to run something bigger. I thought throated for a heavier bullet means I would have more room to mess with the 185’s but apparently it’s the opposiste.

I have his 3” mag box installed but with the 185’s right now touching the lands the loaded round is way shorter than SAAMI spec with hardly any meat left on the ogive to measure.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 24, 2020, 07:00:01 PM
I wonder if it was set up to use 215s at mag length and be close to the lands as opposed to being set up to use 215s long?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Magnum_Willys on September 24, 2020, 07:07:32 PM
You have any spent brass and bullets and a comparator you can measure 215s with? 

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 24, 2020, 07:16:33 PM
I wonder if it was set up to use 215s at mag length and be close to the lands as opposed to being set up to use 215s long?

I don’t know. But as of right now there is no room to seat the 185’s any longer. Shawn has emailed me back so I will get the rifle back to him to get this corrected. Not his fault, communication error.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 24, 2020, 07:17:02 PM
You have any spent brass and bullets and a comparator you can measure 215s with?

I don’t have any 215’s.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on September 24, 2020, 09:30:09 PM
I don't know that this is your problem but VLD type bullets have a much different nose profile than other bullets so it's possible for a lighter weight bullet but with a much less sloping, non VLD type profile, to actually come up with a shorter OAL because a more stubby-ish profile will contact the lands sooner where as a lot of the VLD type will go up inside the throat area before it touches anything.  Hopefully that makes sense.   

Did you have something like a Wyatt's extended mag box installed, sounds like maybe you did?

Nobody likes spending any more money than they have to but since this is a SA WSM build, IMO, you should have considered going with Wyatt's Outdoor SA Mid length kit in this build.  Yes, it would have cost a little more but it would have allowed you to stretch things out to an OAL of 3.200 and based on the conversation I had with Karl back on page 2 these mid length kits are working/feeding very well.  That's not to say what you have won't work but it would have allowed you more flexibility with a SA WSM build.

Remember, they can always go in and add more freebore to get the OAL length you want but unless you plan to single feed you'll also always be limited by magazine length.

I must have confused myself when he said to throat it for 215’s knowing  I was going to run 185’s in case I wanted to run something bigger. I thought throated for a heavier bullet means I would have more room to mess with the 185’s but apparently it’s the opposiste.

I have his 3” mag box installed but with the 185’s right now touching the lands the loaded round is way shorter than SAAMI spec with hardly any meat left on the ogive to measure.

I was referring to, possibly, why the 150 Hornady and 180 Winchester rounds you couldn't get the bolt to close.  If those bullets aren't a VLD profile it's possibly, due to their less sleek profile, they'd touch the lands much sooner and not allow you to close the bolt.  It's also possible the length from base to shoulder on the brass is longer on those other two cases but if they're factory loaded ammo that stuff is usually pretty undersized so it's doubtful but certainly not impossible.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Magnum_Willys on September 24, 2020, 10:06:17 PM
You have any spent brass and bullets and a comparator you can measure 215s with?

I don’t have any 215’s.

If they worked that would be the simple solution - pm if you need a few to test with.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 24, 2020, 10:57:19 PM
I don't know that this is your problem but VLD type bullets have a much different nose profile than other bullets so it's possible for a lighter weight bullet but with a much less sloping, non VLD type profile, to actually come up with a shorter OAL because a more stubby-ish profile will contact the lands sooner where as a lot of the VLD type will go up inside the throat area before it touches anything.  Hopefully that makes sense.   

Did you have something like a Wyatt's extended mag box installed, sounds like maybe you did?

Nobody likes spending any more money than they have to but since this is a SA WSM build, IMO, you should have considered going with Wyatt's Outdoor SA Mid length kit in this build.  Yes, it would have cost a little more but it would have allowed you to stretch things out to an OAL of 3.200 and based on the conversation I had with Karl back on page 2 these mid length kits are working/feeding very well.  That's not to say what you have won't work but it would have allowed you more flexibility with a SA WSM build.

Remember, they can always go in and add more freebore to get the OAL length you want but unless you plan to single feed you'll also always be limited by magazine length.

I must have confused myself when he said to throat it for 215’s knowing  I was going to run 185’s in case I wanted to run something bigger. I thought throated for a heavier bullet means I would have more room to mess with the 185’s but apparently it’s the opposiste.

I have his 3” mag box installed but with the 185’s right now touching the lands the loaded round is way shorter than SAAMI spec with hardly any meat left on the ogive to measure.

I was referring to, possibly, why the 150 Hornady and 180 Winchester rounds you couldn't get the bolt to close.  If those bullets aren't a VLD profile it's possibly, due to their less sleek profile, they'd touch the lands much sooner and not allow you to close the bolt.  It's also possible the length from base to shoulder on the brass is longer on those other two cases but if they're factory loaded ammo that stuff is usually pretty undersized so it's doubtful but certainly not impossible.

I understand the different nose profile of the other two bullets not being as slim as the VLD type bullets and that they may be touching the lands before I can close the bolt.

 I was under the impression that the 215 are basically a bigger version of the 185's so being that he suggested we throat for the 215 VLD's then I would have plenty of seating depth to mess with on the 185's. Maybe I am not understanding something with this whole custom build. I just know that what it is now won't work at all with 185's.

You have any spent brass and bullets and a comparator you can measure 215s with?

I don’t have any 215’s.

If they worked that would be the simple solution - pm if you need a few to test with.

Thank you, I really appreciate the offer. I will talk to Shawn tomorrow and see what my options are and go from there.

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on September 25, 2020, 12:01:19 AM
You can always seat whatever bullet you want at whatever OAL you'd like to run and make up a dummer round then take that with you and they'll match the throat to your dummer round.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 25, 2020, 12:25:57 AM
You can always seat whatever bullet you want at whatever OAL you'd like to run and make up a dummer round then take that with you and they'll match the throat to your dummer round.

Good to know. I don't have a set COAL but I just want to maximize the use of the 3" magazine. Right now at 2.148" CBTO is jammed right into the lands which is just whack. If anything I will just have him throat it for the 185's if that's still even possible.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on September 25, 2020, 05:56:08 AM
I’d make a dummy round with your 185’s about .030” shorter than mag length and have him throat it for that.  Will give you space to chase the lands and cycle well from your mag
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 25, 2020, 08:25:53 AM
I’d make a dummy round with your 185’s about .030” shorter than mag length and have him throat it for that.  Will give you space to chase the lands and cycle well from your mag

I just talked to Shawn, very helpful and explained what he did. However I don’t see myself shooting 215’s ever so I will be dropping it off to have it throated for 185’s. I will make a dummy round before heading to his shop.

Thanks for all the helpful replies gents.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 25, 2020, 10:14:35 AM
I’d make a dummy round with your 185’s about .030” shorter than mag length and have him throat it for that.  Will give you space to chase the lands and cycle well from your mag

I just talked to Shawn, very helpful and explained what he did. However I don’t see myself shooting 215’s ever so I will be dropping it off to have it throated for 185’s. I will make a dummy round before heading to his shop.

Thanks for all the helpful replies gents.
Goad hes gettin you fixed up. Those 185s are a good match for the wsm.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Jonathan_S on September 25, 2020, 11:07:17 AM
Current WSM setup is a Wyatts long box and SAAMI chamber, 2.260" base to the ogive with 185s and h4831sc at 2995. You'll have lots of room for those 185s in that long box  :tup:

185s perform super nice. I've shot several big game animals from 30 yards to much, much farther and they haven't disappointed.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 25, 2020, 11:29:41 AM
I’d make a dummy round with your 185’s about .030” shorter than mag length and have him throat it for that.  Will give you space to chase the lands and cycle well from your mag

I just talked to Shawn, very helpful and explained what he did. However I don’t see myself shooting 215’s ever so I will be dropping it off to have it throated for 185’s. I will make a dummy round before heading to his shop.

Thanks for all the helpful replies gents.
Goad hes gettin you fixed up. Those 185s are a good match for the wsm.

Yes I should have just went with my gut and have him throated for 185's from the get go but now I know. Big learning process for me.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 25, 2020, 11:34:19 AM
Current WSM setup is a Wyatts long box and SAAMI chamber, 2.260" base to the ogive with 185s and h4831sc at 2995. You'll have lots of room for those 185s in that long box  :tup:

185s perform super nice. I've shot several big game animals from 30 yards to much, much farther and they haven't disappointed.

I was going to order a Wyatts long box but he suggested to use theirs so that's what I did. Are you able to feed from the top with the Wyatts box?

I'm hoping to get 3000 FPS or as close as possible to it with the 185's, h4831sc, and Fed 215M. I made a dummy round that had just enough clearance in the mag box before dropping the rifle back off at Defensive Edge so they will be throating the barrel to fit the dummy round.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Jonathan_S on September 25, 2020, 11:38:03 AM
No issues with loading the mag or feeding. I'm sure you'll be happy with what you get  :tup:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 25, 2020, 12:37:35 PM
No issues with loading the mag or feeding. I'm sure you'll be happy with what you get  :tup:

Nice, but yes now that I got everything situated I'm pretty sure I will be happy with the final end results. Really on crunch time now to try and get this thing ready for modern rifle deer and elk season.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 03:04:34 PM
What’s a good starting point with h4831sc for this caliber? Berger doesn’t have it listed so I used Nosler as a reference. Getting sticky bolt at 66gr which was pretty low in Nosler’s book. Hodgdon doesn’t have it listed or their website besides h4831.


Obviously I need to start lower but don’t want to be too low. Trying to achieve 2900+ FPS
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: callturner on October 02, 2020, 04:24:12 PM
Hornady book shows 165 - 168 gr bullets at IMR 4831 starting at 60 gr for 2700 fps with 68.7 max load at 3100 fps. NO H4831 is shown for any load . H4350 starts at 57.8  and max's out at67.5gr with 2900 fps being 62.2gr.  Best I can do till later. I'll check Speer and Sierra when I get back tonight
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 02, 2020, 04:36:25 PM
What’s a good starting point with h4831sc for this caliber? Berger doesn’t have it listed so I used Nosler as a reference. Getting sticky bolt at 66gr which was pretty low in Nosler’s book. Hodgdon doesn’t have it listed or their website besides h4831.


Obviously I need to start lower but don’t want to be too low. Trying to achieve 2900+ FPS
with 185's at 66gr? What brass?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 02, 2020, 04:47:05 PM
2900 shouldn't be an issue. Surprised if there are actual pressure signs at 66
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 02, 2020, 04:59:41 PM
Are you in or near seating on the lands? Is there any excess head clearance?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 05:25:30 PM
What’s a good starting point with h4831sc for this caliber? Berger doesn’t have it listed so I used Nosler as a reference. Getting sticky bolt at 66gr which was pretty low in Nosler’s book. Hodgdon doesn’t have it listed or their website besides h4831.


Obviously I need to start lower but don’t want to be too low. Trying to achieve 2900+ FPS
with 185's at 66gr? What brass?


Yes 185 Berger VLD hunting at 66gr with Hornady virgin brass. Using Fed 215M primer. Very sporadic. Some will shoot just fine and the next one will jam.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 02, 2020, 05:50:47 PM
I got load data from Berger for the 190 showing 66.5 as max. Should be good with 66 and 185’s.  Maybe more jump
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 02, 2020, 06:03:22 PM
Try to back it off a bit for a firing and then size with minimal bump and then try working up in once fired brass.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 08:31:02 PM
2900 shouldn't be an issue. Surprised if there are actual pressure signs at 66

I loaded 20 at 66gr to do barrel break in and to zero the scope. Some shot fine and some I couldn't even pull the bolt back to eject the brass. Velocity was only 2815.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 08:33:19 PM
Are you in or near seating on the lands? Is there any excess head clearance?

I'm 0.015" off the lands. I'll have to get my calipers to measure headspace. It's a head scratcher since at 66gr some shot just fine but some had stuck bolt issues.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 08:34:02 PM
I got load data from Berger for the 190 showing 66.5 as max. Should be good with 66 and 185’s.  Maybe more jump

I'm guessing more jump for less pressure?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 08:36:25 PM
She groups pretty well with my test loads at 66gr but I’m guessing too much pressure since some shots I can’t even pull the bolt handle back until it cools off.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: callturner on October 02, 2020, 08:39:08 PM
I just replied before you. You might start by dumping the Mag primers
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 08:40:40 PM
I just replied before you. You might start by dumping the Mag primers

Elaborate please?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Jason on October 02, 2020, 08:46:24 PM
I wouldn’t dump the mag primers, bring the powder down a little and keep the better ignition source.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 08:54:47 PM
I wouldn’t dump the mag primers, bring the powder down a little and keep the better ignition source.

I can bring the powder down but that puts me in the 2700 FPS range. Pretty slow in my opinion. This is my ladder test, I noted which ones jammed "stuck bolt".

66gr - 2815 FPS - bolt sticks sporadically when breaking in and zero
66.5gr - 2838 FPS
67gr - 2867 FPS
67.5gr - 2851 FPS
68gr - 2911 FPS - compressed
68.5gr - 2913 FPS - compressed
69gr - 2925 FPS - compressed - stuck bolt
69.5gr - 2943 FPS - compressed
70gr - 2960 FPS - compressed - stuck bolt
70.5gr - 2985 FPS - compressed

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 02, 2020, 09:18:45 PM
I'd wait for the second firing before you start worrying. Your speeds will pick up and brass will stop flowing as much.its also a brand new barrel that will speed up and settle in.

Disclaimer: far from an expert, just reminding you not to get too nitnoid until everything is fireformed and the barrel has been shot.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Stein on October 02, 2020, 09:21:05 PM
Have you measured headspace?  I only ask since it was an existing issue.  I'm not an expert on reloading, but maybe some smart people here could make a list of things that could cause the issue and then go one by one and see what you can cross off.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 09:22:27 PM
I'd wait for the second firing before you start worrying. Your speeds will pick up and brass will stop flowing as much.its also a brand new barrel that will speed up and settle in.

Disclaimer: far from an expert, just reminding you not to get too nitnoid until everything is fireformed and the barrel has been shot.

Yes I totally understand what you're saying. Just curious why there's so  much sporadic jams.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 09:27:29 PM
Have you measured headspace?  I only ask since it was an existing issue.  I'm not an expert on reloading, but maybe some smart people here could make a list of things that could cause the issue and then go one by one and see what you can cross off.

It was never an existing issue. This is a brand new Rem 700 SA. But I haven't measured it. I have noticed that it is hard to close the bolt on some rounds.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Stein on October 02, 2020, 09:28:33 PM
Yeah, it sounds strange.  I've run a few loads up way too far and from my experience you can get way off the ranch before you run into those problems.  My gut feeling says it's something else other than slight overpressure.  Are there any other signs like bulged primer?  It seems that happens well before case/bolt problems.

From my thinking, a stuck bolt is a case that either won't rotate or pull out of the chamber.  It's too long or too big around after the shot and got jammed.

At the loads you mentioned, too big around sounds unlikely.  I don't know, but could the chamber still be too short such that it can chamber but then gets stuck after firing?

Honestly, I'm just guessing in hopes you get it figured out, have a great hunt and then post a great video on YouTube so I can watch it.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Stein on October 02, 2020, 09:31:56 PM
Have you measured headspace?  I only ask since it was an existing issue.  I'm not an expert on reloading, but maybe some smart people here could make a list of things that could cause the issue and then go one by one and see what you can cross off.

It was never an existing issue. This is a brand new Rem 700 SA. But I haven't measured it. I have noticed that it is hard to close the bolt on some rounds.

Isn't it a custom build?  Maybe I missed a page or two in the thread.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 09:37:03 PM
Yeah, it sounds strange.  I've run a few loads up way too far and from my experience you can get way off the ranch before you run into those problems.  My gut feeling says it's something else other than slight overpressure.  Are there any other signs like bulged primer?  It seems that happens well before case/bolt problems.

From my thinking, a stuck bolt is a case that either won't rotate or pull out of the chamber.  It's too long or too big around after the shot and got jammed.

At the loads you mentioned, too big around sounds unlikely.  I don't know, but could the chamber still be too short such that it can chamber but then gets stuck after firing?

Honestly, I'm just guessing in hopes you get it figured out, have a great hunt and then post a great video on YouTube so I can watch it.

All the primers look good. I do see some ejector swipes on my test loads "66gr" but not all of them. I appreciate all the guessing. Gives me something to think about. I agree on what you said about a stuck bolt. I can lift the dang bolt but just not able to extract. I'll have to measure how much the brass expanded after firing. There are too many variables, just trying to cross them off as I go.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 09:38:02 PM
Have you measured headspace?  I only ask since it was an existing issue.  I'm not an expert on reloading, but maybe some smart people here could make a list of things that could cause the issue and then go one by one and see what you can cross off.

It was never an existing issue. This is a brand new Rem 700 SA. But I haven't measured it. I have noticed that it is hard to close the bolt on some rounds.

Isn't it a custom build?  Maybe I missed a page or two in the thread.

It is a custom build on a 700 action.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 02, 2020, 10:07:53 PM
Yes more jump will mean less pressure to an extent.  Back off, lower charge, get your brass fire formed.   Barrel should speed up and level off around 100 rds.   Hornady brass is soft but firing them should work harden them a bit.     Once all your brass is fired don’t bump shoulders till a fired case has some resistance chambering.  Can take 3 firings to fully fire form.  Then get serious about load development.  I often use cheap bullets for the first 100 to get brass fire formed.   This will give you better idea of chamber size and get you more familiar with the rifle aswell.   Jmo and how I treat a new barrel
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 02, 2020, 10:38:57 PM
Yes more jump will mean less pressure to an extent.  Back off, lower charge, get your brass fire formed.   Barrel should speed up and level off around 100 rds.   Hornady brass is soft but firing them should work harden them a bit.     Once all your brass is fired don’t bump shoulders till a fired case has some resistance chambering.  Can take 3 firings to fully fire form.  Then get serious about load development.  I often use cheap bullets for the first 100 to get brass fire formed.   This will give you better idea of chamber size and get you more familiar with the rifle aswell.   Jmo and how I treat a new barrel

Thanks for the info. I guess I just need to be more patient. I would use cheap bullets to fire form  but it’s chambered for 185gr VLD. Nothing else chambers in it.

I guess it’s time to back off the charge and load up the rest of the brass to fire form.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 03, 2020, 12:06:15 AM
You had a sticky/heavy bolt lift and ejector swipes at 66gr and you felt the need to not only increase the amount of powder but you shot more rounds as you continually increased the powder charge 4.5 more grains?

Once I get a clicker, heavy bolt lift, or ejector swipe I generally stop and depending on the case size drop the powder a half grain or so.  I'm struggling to understand why you continually increased the powder another 4.5 grains to 70.5 when you're getting clear pressure signs at 66. 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: callturner on October 03, 2020, 04:25:44 AM
Mag primers are NOT required for that powder and for the charges and bullets your firing CAN cause excessive pressure. Max coal for that rifle in a factory gun is 2.860 . Not sure what he set it up for, did he tell you? I sent Speer info also but it didn't show up so: For 180 gr bullets they start at65.0 gr for 2780fps. MAX shows 69.0 compressed at 2906 fps. There coal runs 2.700 - 2.800 for 5 different bullets. Will this gun even take factory ammo? You seem to be having too many variables. A new gun should not be broke in with max loads anyway. Are you shooting across a crony? Good luck Daniel.

Mike
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 03, 2020, 06:44:11 AM
Yes more jump will mean less pressure to an extent.  Back off, lower charge, get your brass fire formed.   Barrel should speed up and level off around 100 rds.   Hornady brass is soft but firing them should work harden them a bit.     Once all your brass is fired don’t bump shoulders till a fired case has some resistance chambering.  Can take 3 firings to fully fire form.  Then get serious about load development.  I often use cheap bullets for the first 100 to get brass fire formed.   This will give you better idea of chamber size and get you more familiar with the rifle aswell.   Jmo and how I treat a new barrel

Thanks for the info. I guess I just need to be more patient. I would use cheap bullets to fire form  but it’s chambered for 185gr VLD. Nothing else chambers in it.

I guess it’s time to back off the charge and load up the rest of the brass to fire form.
it’s throated for 185’s but should have no problems with 168’s.  If you can’t chamber anything else there is a problem
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 06:46:26 AM
You had a sticky/heavy bolt lift and ejector swipes at 66gr and you felt the need to not only increase the amount of powder but you shot more rounds as you continually increased the powder charge 4.5 more grains?

Once I get a clicker, heavy bolt lift, or ejector swipe I generally stop and depending on the case size drop the powder a half grain or so.  I'm struggling to understand why you continually increased the powder another 4.5 grains to 70.5 when you're getting clear pressure signs at 66.

Because it was rather sporadic. If it happened on the first shot of 66gr or almost every shot then I would have stopped but it didn’t. 70.5 had no pressure signs. I’ve had this issue before with a Model 7 action. You can fire ten rounds and it’ll cycle fine then jam on the next shot. Happened with factory ammo and hand loads that were near minimum, seated to SAAMI spec, and still had plenty of case volume.

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 06:52:17 AM
Yes more jump will mean less pressure to an extent.  Back off, lower charge, get your brass fire formed.   Barrel should speed up and level off around 100 rds.   Hornady brass is soft but firing them should work harden them a bit.     Once all your brass is fired don’t bump shoulders till a fired case has some resistance chambering.  Can take 3 firings to fully fire form.  Then get serious about load development.  I often use cheap bullets for the first 100 to get brass fire formed.   This will give you better idea of chamber size and get you more familiar with the rifle aswell.   Jmo and how I treat a new barrel

Thanks for the info. I guess I just need to be more patient. I would use cheap bullets to fire form  but it’s chambered for 185gr VLD. Nothing else chambers in it.

I guess it’s time to back off the charge and load up the rest of the brass to fire form.
it’s throated for 185’s but should have no problems with 168’s.  If you can’t chamber anything else there is a problem

It was initially throated for 215’s and I had issue’s chambering 185’s unless I shoved the whole bullet inside the case.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 07:03:37 AM
Mag primers are NOT required for that powder and for the charges and bullets your firing CAN cause excessive pressure. Max coal for that rifle in a factory gun is 2.860 . Not sure what he set it up for, did he tell you? I sent Speer info also but it didn't show up so: For 180 gr bullets they start at65.0 gr for 2780fps. MAX shows 69.0 compressed at 2906 fps. There coal runs 2.700 - 2.800 for 5 different bullets. Will this gun even take factory ammo? You seem to be having too many variables. A new gun should not be broke in with max loads anyway. Are you shooting across a crony? Good luck Daniel.

Mike

66grs is not even close to max which is what I loaded and used for break in. My internal mag is 3” and he rethroated the barrel to 185’s with a max COAL of 2.960 if I remember right. Gonna have to look at my notes.

I did shoot with a chronograph and posted the results above in one of my posts.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 03, 2020, 07:06:50 AM
Yes more jump will mean less pressure to an extent.  Back off, lower charge, get your brass fire formed.   Barrel should speed up and level off around 100 rds.   Hornady brass is soft but firing them should work harden them a bit.     Once all your brass is fired don’t bump shoulders till a fired case has some resistance chambering.  Can take 3 firings to fully fire form.  Then get serious about load development.  I often use cheap bullets for the first 100 to get brass fire formed.   This will give you better idea of chamber size and get you more familiar with the rifle aswell.   Jmo and how I treat a new barrel

Thanks for the info. I guess I just need to be more patient. I would use cheap bullets to fire form  but it’s chambered for 185gr VLD. Nothing else chambers in it.

I guess it’s time to back off the charge and load up the rest of the brass to fire form.
it’s throated for 185’s but should have no problems with 168’s.  If you can’t chamber anything else there is a problem

It was initially throated for 215’s and I had issue’s chambering 185’s unless I shoved the whole bullet inside the case.
i remember that part.  But you should be able to load up smaller bullets seated a little shorter bto and chamber those.   The 125gr sst’s Are cheap and short and great for ff brass in 30 cal.  I think they are about $20 a 100ct.   I’ve shot about 500 185 vld’s in my 300.  The 125’s and even most of the 168’s are shorter bto


Did you go with Shawn’s +p throat? Reason I ask is it’s easy to be jammed or close to it with out realizing due to the longer taper and less resistance entering the lands. 
How does a fired case feel chambering?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 07:14:19 AM
Yes more jump will mean less pressure to an extent.  Back off, lower charge, get your brass fire formed.   Barrel should speed up and level off around 100 rds.   Hornady brass is soft but firing them should work harden them a bit.     Once all your brass is fired don’t bump shoulders till a fired case has some resistance chambering.  Can take 3 firings to fully fire form.  Then get serious about load development.  I often use cheap bullets for the first 100 to get brass fire formed.   This will give you better idea of chamber size and get you more familiar with the rifle aswell.   Jmo and how I treat a new barrel

Thanks for the info. I guess I just need to be more patient. I would use cheap bullets to fire form  but it’s chambered for 185gr VLD. Nothing else chambers in it.

I guess it’s time to back off the charge and load up the rest of the brass to fire form.
it’s throated for 185’s but should have no problems with 168’s.  If you can’t chamber anything else there is a problem

It was initially throated for 215’s and I had issue’s chambering 185’s unless I shoved the whole bullet inside the case.
i remember that part.  But you should be able to load up smaller bullets seated a little shorter bto and chamber those.   The 125gr sst’s Are cheap and short and great for ff brass in 30 cal.  I think they are about $20 a 100ct.   I’ve shot about 500 185 vld’s in my 300.  The 125’s and even most of the 168’s are shorter bto


Did you go with Shawn’s +p throat? Reason I ask is it’s easy to be jammed or close to it with out realizing due to the longer taper and less resistance entering the lands. 
How does a fired case feel chambering?

I see, I’ll have to look into a cheap option for break in then. But no I did not go with the +p option. A fired case that jammed will get stuck when chambering, one that cycled fine when firing has no issue chambering. Bolt is hard to close. This has been the case with everything I shot loaded 0.015” off the lands.

Going to try backing off and see when it will let me close the bolt without having to fight it.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 03, 2020, 07:16:22 AM
Can you drop a bullet in a fired case or is there some resistance slipping bullet in fired case?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 07:22:46 AM
Can you drop a bullet in a fired case or is there some resistance slipping bullet in fired case?

It has resistance. I measured the neck after firing and it had about 0.006” expansion.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 03, 2020, 07:27:28 AM
Sounds like you may have a tight neck chamber.  A bullet should just fall in the case.  If this is true you may need to neck turn to get rid of this pressure issues or use a different brand of brass.  Check multiple cases including those that did not have the pressure issues
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 07:30:36 AM
Sounds like you may have a tight neck chamber.  A bullet should just fall in the case.  If this is true you may need to neck turn to get rid of this pressure issues or use a different brand of brass.  Check multiple cases including those that did not have the pressure issues

I tried it with all the cases I fired yesterday. Even the one's that cycled fine, the bullet just sits on the neck. Some don't even let the bullet slide down when pushing it in by hand and some you can eventually wiggle the bullet into the spent casing. Somebody is hoarding all the Nosler brass  :'(.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 03, 2020, 07:38:02 AM
Sounds like you may have a tight neck chamber.  A bullet should just fall in the case.  If this is true you may need to neck turn to get rid of this pressure issues or use a different brand of brass.  Check multiple cases including those that did not have the pressure issues

I tried it with all the cases I fired yesterday. Even the one's that cycled fine, the bullet just sits on the neck. Some don't even let the bullet slide down when pushing it in by hand and some you can eventually wiggle the bullet into the spent casing. Somebody is hoarding all the Nosler brass  :'(.
Definitely sounds like tight neck chamber.  Looks like everyone is hoarding 300wsm brass.  Not easy to find any in stock except Winchester.   Do you have access to neck turning tools?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 07:41:56 AM
Sounds like you may have a tight neck chamber.  A bullet should just fall in the case.  If this is true you may need to neck turn to get rid of this pressure issues or use a different brand of brass.  Check multiple cases including those that did not have the pressure issues

I tried it with all the cases I fired yesterday. Even the one's that cycled fine, the bullet just sits on the neck. Some don't even let the bullet slide down when pushing it in by hand and some you can eventually wiggle the bullet into the spent casing. Somebody is hoarding all the Nosler brass  :'(.
Definitely sounds like tight neck chamber.  Looks like everyone is hoarding 300wsm brass.  Not easy to find any in stock except Winchester.   Do you have access to neck turning tools?

You might be right on the tight neck chamber. But no I do not. Guess I'll have to buy one now.  :bash: Any specific one to get?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 03, 2020, 07:47:35 AM
Sounds like you may have a tight neck chamber.  A bullet should just fall in the case.  If this is true you may need to neck turn to get rid of this pressure issues or use a different brand of brass.  Check multiple cases including those that did not have the pressure issues

I tried it with all the cases I fired yesterday. Even the one's that cycled fine, the bullet just sits on the neck. Some don't even let the bullet slide down when pushing it in by hand and some you can eventually wiggle the bullet into the spent casing. Somebody is hoarding all the Nosler brass  :'(.
Definitely sounds like tight neck chamber.  Looks like everyone is hoarding 300wsm brass.  Not easy to find any in stock except Winchester.   Do you have access to neck turning tools?

You might be right on the tight neck chamber. But no I do not. Guess I'll have to buy one now.  :bash:
I’d contact Shawn again, let him know what issues your having and he may be able to help. Maybe even turn your necks to get you started and he will have more insight on the chamber specs of the reamer used.   
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 03, 2020, 07:52:44 AM
If you decide to go with the neck turning tools I’d recommend k&m
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 08:03:33 AM
Sounds like you may have a tight neck chamber.  A bullet should just fall in the case.  If this is true you may need to neck turn to get rid of this pressure issues or use a different brand of brass.  Check multiple cases including those that did not have the pressure issues

I tried it with all the cases I fired yesterday. Even the one's that cycled fine, the bullet just sits on the neck. Some don't even let the bullet slide down when pushing it in by hand and some you can eventually wiggle the bullet into the spent casing. Somebody is hoarding all the Nosler brass  :'(.
Definitely sounds like tight neck chamber.  Looks like everyone is hoarding 300wsm brass.  Not easy to find any in stock except Winchester.   Do you have access to neck turning tools?

You might be right on the tight neck chamber. But no I do not. Guess I'll have to buy one now.  :bash:
I’d contact Shawn again, let him know what issues your having and he may be able to help. Maybe even turn your necks to get you started and he will have more insight on the chamber specs of the reamer used.

Dude's probably tired of hearing from me. Didn't seem too pleased when I wanted to rethroat to 185's but I guess I can shoot him an email. I don't mind buying a neck turning tool either but I'll see what Shawn says.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 08:23:36 AM
I think what I will do first is back off the powder charge to see if the problem continues. If not then I’ll fire form all my brass and go from there. If the problem is still there then I will contact Shawn.

Going to start from 61gr and work up to 65.5gr.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 03, 2020, 09:14:20 AM
Curious, what are you using for dies and are you FL sizing all of your brass before you load it and if you are FL sizing all of the brass before you load it are you accurately measuring base to shoulder, with a bump gauge and caliper, on every piece that comes out of your FL die? 

Are you measuring base to ogive on every loaded round you make with a comparator?  As you probably know base to tip is pretty inconsistent so that number doesn't mean much and you'll want to make sure the primer isn't protruding when you measure or it'll give you false readings as well.

If you're getting 6 thou neck expansion I doubt you have a tight neck issue and just because a bullet won't slip in and out of a fired case doesn't really mean anything.  I don't have a single rifle with a tight neck chamber and most of mine you can not slip a bullet in and out of the neck on a fired piece of brass.

If you're using a bushing die are you sure you have the right size bushing?  If you aren't using a bushing die does your sizing die have the expander button still in it or did you remove it?  You aren't crimping these by chance are you.

No disrespect intended in any way, but I think something is amiss in your reloading process/s and I say that only because there seems to be no consistency with the trouble you're having.  Generally if it's a gun issue the problem/s will be more consistent.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Bareback on October 03, 2020, 09:32:08 AM
You may be getting the cart before the horse.

Have you addressed all of your mechanical issues first? I just broke in a Christensens Ridgline 300 WSM and observed similar issues. Have you polished your bolt face? Have you chamfered/softened the edges on the ejector hole. Have you polished your action, specifically where the bolt handle contacts the action? When you can’t eject a casing there is a friction issue, right?

Have you or a second party taken an actual physical measurement of the chamber? Reamers wear with use. Dull HSCO reamers collapse when dull, carbide reamers do as well. How smooth is the chamber bore? Have you removed the barrel from the action to see if there are rings from reaming. Looking through the action it’s tough to see. Are there scratch lines on your spent brass?

Someone mentioned neck turning. What diameter are you turning to and why?

Someone previously mentioned seeing if spent casings fit in the chamber. Did you measure them (diameters) prior? It’s a good way to get and ‘idea’ if your chamber is in SAAMI specs or specs you requested (disclosure... casings are not round, if you take multiple neck measurements with a micrometer you will see this).

IMHO, I would address a lot of the simple issues first, lower your pressure, break in the barrel, get some repeatability, then slowly up the pressure.



Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 09:36:13 AM
Curious, what are you using for dies and are you FL sizing all of your brass before you load it and if you are FL sizing all of the brass before you load it are you accurately measuring base to shoulder, with a bump gauge and caliper, on every piece that comes out of your FL die? 

Are you measuring base to ogive on every loaded round you make with a comparator?  As you probably know base to tip is pretty inconsistent so that number doesn't mean much and you'll want to make sure the primer isn't protruding when you measure or it'll give you false readings as well.

If you're getting 6 thou neck expansion I doubt you have a tight neck issue and just because a bullet won't slip in and out of a fired case doesn't really mean anything.  I don't have a single rifle with a tight neck chamber and most of mine you can not slip a bullet in and out of the neck on a fired piece of brass.

If you're using a bushing die are you sure you have the right size bushing?  If you aren't using a bushing die does your sizing die have the expander button still in it or did you remove it?  You aren't crimping these by chance are you.

No disrespect intended in any way, but I think something is amiss in your reloading process/s and I say that only because there seems to be no consistency with the trouble you're having.  Generally if it's a gun issue the problem/s will be more consistent.

I'm using a RCBS FL sizing die. I size all my new brass without bumping the shoulder. I measure all my brass after resizing with a Hornady headspace gauge and measure everything to the ogive after seating on every round. I'm rather anal when it comes to consistency and measure everything.

I haven't ruled out anything reason why I'm going to start even lower and work back up on charge weight.

I use the same loading process for 8 different rifles and they all shoot great once a load is found so I'm pretty confident in my work.

I'm not saying Shawn didn't do a good job on the build if that's what you're thinking. Knowing you have had work done by him before.

If I was confident that it was the gun I would have called him already. There are many variable's to account for still. I'm gonna do what I can to rule things out before even bothering him.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 09:38:42 AM
You may be getting the cart before the horse.

Have you addressed all of your mechanical issues first? I just broke in a Christensens Ridgline 300 WSM and observed similar issues. Have you polished your bolt face? Have you chamfered/softened the edges on the ejector hole. Have you polished your action, specifically where the bolt handle contacts the action? When you can’t eject a casing there is a friction issue, right?

Have you or a second party taken an actual physical measurement of the chamber? Reamers wear with use. Dull HSCO reamers collapse when dull, carbide reamers do as well. How smooth is the chamber bore? Have you removed the barrel from the action to see if there are rings from reaming. Looking through the action it’s tough to see. Are there scratch lines on your spent brass?

Someone mentioned neck turning. What diameter are you turning to and why?

Someone previously mentioned seeing if spent casings fit in the chamber. Did you measure them (diameters) prior? It’s a good way to get and ‘idea’ if your chamber is in SAAMI specs or specs you requested (disclosure... casings are not round, if you take multiple neck measurements with a micrometer you will see this).

IMHO, I would address a lot of the simple issues first, lower your pressure, break in the barrel, get some repeatability, then slowly up the pressure.

This is a custom built rifle. Builder should have done all that already since I was charged for a trued action. But as I mentioned above I will go back to lowering the charge weight and go from there.

I will also load some 0.020" from the lands to see how they chamber/ fire as well.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 03, 2020, 10:31:01 AM
A few things.  Built guns generally have tighter chamber specs than off the rack factory built guns so what you can get away with in a factory chambered rifle maybe won't necessarily work in a custom chambered gun.

You said you're FL sizing with zero bump and measuring base to shoulder on every piece but are you measuring base to shoulder on every piece before and after you FL size it and comparing the numbers or only on a few here and there?  I'm always skeptical when people talk about zero bump when using a FL die because if you understand what a FL die does to the brass it's somewhat of an impossibility.

Brass as it is pushed up inside a FL die makes contact on the case body and to some degree, large or small, squeezes on the body of the brass and as this is happening it causes the brass to flow in the direction of the path of least resistance which causes the body to actually get longer.  If you're measuring accurately and you partially size a piece of brass nearly every time it'll come out of a FL die with a base to shoulder length longer than what it went in.  It's not until the die is screwed down far enough that the brass comes in full contact with the die that it pushes the shoulder back.  Even at zero bump, the body gets longer which increases the base to shoulder number before it comes in full contact with the die and pushes it back down.

To a large degree your problem sounds like a sizing issue which is why you're having trouble with some of your ammo chambering fine while others are hard on close and why you have inconsistent heavy bolt lift.

Also, one of the problems with using a non bushing type FL die is they can't adjust for varying neck thickness which is why it's important to use the expander button or a neck mandrel for setting neck tension.

This has nothing to do with pointing a finger at anyone, just trying to help you resolve an issue and in my opinion the issue is with the sizing process or possibly your FL die isn't a good match for the chamber you have.

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 11:05:30 AM
A few things.  Built guns generally have tighter chamber specs than off the rack factory built guns so what you can get away with in a factory chambered rifle maybe won't necessarily work in a custom chambered gun.

You said you're FL sizing with zero bump and measuring base to shoulder on every piece but are you measuring base to shoulder on every piece before and after you FL size it and comparing the numbers or only on a few here and there?  I'm always skeptical when people talk about zero bump when using a FL die because if you understand what a FL die does to the brass it's somewhat of an impossibility.

Brass as it is pushed up inside a FL die makes contact on the case body and to some degree, large or small, squeezes on the body of the brass and as this is happening it causes the brass to flow in the direction of the path of least resistance which causes the body to actually get longer.  If you're measuring accurately and you partially size a piece of brass nearly every time it'll come out of a FL die with a base to shoulder length longer than what it went in.  It's not until the die is screwed down far enough that the brass comes in full contact with the die that it pushes the shoulder back.  Even at zero bump, the body gets longer which increases the base to shoulder number before it comes in full contact with the die and pushes it back down.

To a large degree your problem sounds like a sizing issue which is why you're having trouble with some of your ammo chambering fine while others are hard on close and why you have inconsistent heavy bolt lift.

Also, one of the problems with using a non bushing type FL die is they can't adjust for varying neck thickness which is why it's important to use the expander button or a neck mandrel for setting neck tension.

This has nothing to do with pointing a finger at anyone, just trying to help you resolve an issue and in my opinion the issue is with the sizing process or possibly your FL die isn't a good match for the chamber you have.

Yes I do measure the shoulder's before resizing the brass and afterwards. I never bump the shoulder's on new brass, only sizing to uniform the neck as some come mushed from the factory.

I understand what you're saying. I'm going to fireform all my brass and bump the shoulder 0.002" and go from there.

I've thought about buying a match grade die setup as well but will see if I can resolve the issue before hand.

I appreciate the help.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: mazama on October 03, 2020, 01:00:43 PM
I looked back to page 3, you stated you could not close the bolt on factory 150gr plus 180 factory,looks like a problem to me unless I am missing something,throated for 215 then everything lighter should fit,if 150 factory does not chamber easy I would stop and look for a problem.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Stein on October 03, 2020, 01:07:52 PM
I looked back to page 3, you stated you could not close the bolt on factory 150gr plus 180 factory,looks like a problem to me unless I am missing something,throated for 215 then everything lighter should fit,if 150 factory does not chamber easy I would stop and look for a problem.

That's my thought, sounds like the chamber may still not be correct.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 02:16:05 PM
I looked back to page 3, you stated you could not close the bolt on factory 150gr plus 180 factory,looks like a problem to me unless I am missing something,throated for 215 then everything lighter should fit,if 150 factory does not chamber easy I would stop and look for a problem.

That’s what I thought as well but was told that since it was throated for the VLD bullet profile only the VLD’s will chamber. I also thought since the 215’s were bigger that I would have more room to play with 185’s but was told it is actually the opposite. That’s why I took it back and had it throated for 185 VLD’s with a dummy round I made just shy of 3” to fit my magazine.

He’s the expert so I wasn’t going to argue with him. The chamber is now throated for what I want so I’m ok with it.

I’ll have to try and see if a 165gr TGK will chamber since it has a secant ogive like the VLD bullets do.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Jason on October 03, 2020, 02:57:03 PM
If your rifle was setup for 215's it should have no issues shooting 185's. These specs are for 185gr VLD Hybrid Target and 215gr VLD Hybrid Target.
OAL
185's = 1.418"
215's = 1.598".
Nose length
185's = 0.831"
215's = 0.872"
Base to ogive
185's = .657"
215's = .799"
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 03:37:22 PM
If your rifle was setup for 215's it should have no issues shooting 185's. These specs are for 185gr VLD Hybrid Target and 215gr VLD Hybrid Target.
OAL
185's = 1.418"
215's = 1.598".
Nose length
185's = 0.831"
215's = 0.872"
Base to ogive
185's = .657"
215's = .799"

I am using VLD hunting
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 03:39:45 PM
So were 215s and 185s both loaded to same sub 3" overall ?  If so, you would be seating the 215 too deep into the powder column increasing pressure.  When you use the long bullet in the standard mag, and then throat for that, you are short throating your chamber, the same as youd be giving it a long throat had you used the Wyatts longer mag.

No. The 185’s would have had to be way shorter than SAAMI spec to even fit the chamber.  I’ll post a pic later when I get home of what the 185’s would have looked liked jammed into the throat when throated for the 215’s.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 03, 2020, 09:18:39 PM
For those that were curious, the one on the top is a 185gr Berger VLD jammed into the lands that was throated for a 215gr VLD. The one on the bottom is my dummy round that I had him throat it for afterwards. Cbto on the top is 2.148”. CBTO for my dummy round is 2.277”.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 07, 2020, 11:54:50 AM
Well I’ve fire formed all my brass. However I am having an issue.

The bolt will close by itself smoothly with no brass but when I put a prepped brass that’s been fl resized with 0.002” shoulder bumper the bolt doesn’t even go far enough to be able to close it.

Is this a die related issue?

Without brass and with brass

I have tried bumping the shoulder back 0.003”-0.004” but it feels like there is a lot of spring back when doing so.


I just watched Eric Cortina's video on setting up FL sizing die for a refresher but this is the results I am getting.

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 07, 2020, 12:42:03 PM
Must be a difference some where between fired and resized.  I’d focus on figuring out what those are
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 07, 2020, 01:02:24 PM
Been trying. It's always been hard to chamber anything in this gun. No where close to being smooth like my 700 .308 or the wife's Model Seven.

I've tried everything I can think of or know how.

The only thing else I can think of is possible bur in the chamber. I get this mark on all the brass fired from this rifle. It's not from the feed ramps since I am single loading everything as of right now.

Guess my reloading skills is no where near good.

Good thing I don't have any hair on my head.  :bash:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 07, 2020, 01:57:42 PM
Do you have a bore scope
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: callturner on October 07, 2020, 02:00:44 PM
What does the builder say when you show him?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 07, 2020, 02:22:16 PM
Do you have a bore scope

I do not.


What does the builder say when you show him?

I haven’t talked to him yet. Trying to do all that I can or know how to on my end before bothering him again.

Maybe I’m just not used to such tight tolerance’s and just need to learn how to load for such specs but I feel like my reloading process is pretty tedious already.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Crunchy on October 07, 2020, 02:40:23 PM
I had a similar issue and it turned out to be the bullet seating die needed to be backed out 1/4 turn.  Try it on a piece of brass.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 07, 2020, 04:37:28 PM
I had a similar issue and it turned out to be the bullet seating die needed to be backed out 1/4 turn.  Try it on a piece of brass.

I’m not even seating bullets right now. I am testing to see if the cases are sized properly for the chamber.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: buckfvr on October 07, 2020, 04:42:59 PM
Get your hands on a set of go/nogo gages and give them a whirl.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Stein on October 07, 2020, 04:47:22 PM
Man, if you are full length sizing with a 2 thou bump and trim one brass that has been fired in that rifle I just don't see why the bolt won't close.  Makes zero sense to me.  I would probably try a 4 thou bump just to see, but would be calling the builder up to see what he thinks.

It won't close on empty brass resized or an actual loaded round?  I assume you compared the resized brass to the loaded brass that fit?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 07, 2020, 10:12:18 PM
Man, if you are full length sizing with a 2 thou bump and trim one brass that has been fired in that rifle I just don't see why the bolt won't close.  Makes zero sense to me.  I would probably try a 4 thou bump just to see, but would be calling the builder up to see what he thinks.

It won't close on empty brass resized or an actual loaded round?  I assume you compared the resized brass to the loaded brass that fit?

I’m testing my fire formed brass to see if they will chamber with 0.002” bump. Trying to chamber a round just doesn’t feel right.

Maybe it needs more time to break in?  :dunno:

Shawn’s going hunting this weekend so I don’t want to bother him until afterwards.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: callturner on October 07, 2020, 11:05:50 PM
Any body near ya have a sizing die you could try? I've watched your vids for a couple years and believe your too good of a reloader and Shawn has a pretty good rep so it has to be in the dies. I've had a couple die issues in the last 50 years and you cant rule them out . That marred brass shouldn't be happening too. Your other rifles seem to shoot your reloads well.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 07, 2020, 11:20:32 PM
Any body near ya have a sizing die you could try? I've watched your vids for a couple years and believe your too good of a reloader and Shawn has a pretty good rep so it has to be in the dies. I've had a couple die issues in the last 50 years and you cant rule them out . That marred brass shouldn't be happening too. Your other rifles seem to shoot your reloads well.

Thanks, I'm not great but I can manage to get some decent groups, ES, and SD.

Upon further investigation and tinkering it seems that my FL sizing die is bottoming out. That's most likely the reason why I can't bump the shoulder anymore than 0.003" and that's even pushing it with alot of spring back. Unfortunately I don't know of anyone with a 300 WSM die. I might just suck it up and go buy a Lee FL sizing die just to rule out the RCBS one or maybe just buy another RCBS die.

The marring on the brass is another concern but maybe it'll smooth itself out after x amount of rounds fired.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 08, 2020, 05:52:56 AM
The marring on the brass could be from lug rail on ejection.  The rcbs die could just be a bit fat, or the shell holder just a hair tall, could be that you need a small base die.  You’ve mentioned a lot of spring back.  You could try resizing with a 15 count.  Ram up count 15,then bring case down, spin case 180 or so, ram up for another 15 count.  This has worked for me in the past and it’s free to try and may rule out if the die is egged or not. 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 08, 2020, 07:58:30 AM
Upon further investigation and tinkering it seems that my FL sizing die is bottoming out. That's most likely the reason why I can't bump the shoulder anymore than 0.003" and that's even pushing it with alot of spring back.

Is you FL die just barely touching the shell holder or is the FL die screwed down far enough that you are getting a little cam over on the press?  I've yet to have a FL die that didn't require a certain amount of cam over before it would bump the shoulder back and to be clear I'm certainly not talking about gorilla strength cam over with a 4ft cheater bar on the handle but I've always needed a reasonable amount of cam over to size my brass consistently.

Curious, will fired brass, but not yet FL sized, chamber in your gun?  I thought I read earlier that you had some brass that would chamber ok while other pieces would not, if that is true have you compared measurements of a piece that would chamber to one that does not to see if you could figure out where the differences are in the brass the chambers versus the brass that won't?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Stein on October 08, 2020, 08:01:16 AM
I agree with B23, I initially set my Redding type S to fully contact the shell holder and when I resized it didn't bump the shoulder at all.  I had to go past touching to get 2-3 thou, but I'm guessing you are already measuring that.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 08, 2020, 08:56:49 AM
Unsized fire brass fit but tite but resized don’t?

If you had redding 5 pc shell holder set you could get .010 more bump.   Or you could file .010 off top of current shell holder. 

I have couple rifles that only certain brand dies will shrink base enough with .002 bump as other dies Need .007 or more bump which is not great if I can even bump that much. 

Or grind a couple thou off the base of die. 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 08, 2020, 10:19:28 AM
Only one of my sets needs cam over to get 2k bump :dunno:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 11:31:59 AM
I'm probably not being clear in my posts so I'll explain everything I have done from the beginning. Sorry if it's redundant.

So what I did was I started out with a fresh batch of brand spanking new Hornady brass (same lot). I then ran all of them through the FL sizing die without bumping the shoulder back at all (only uniforming the necks). The sizing die is setup by ramming the shell holder all the way up and screwing the die down until it touches the shell holder.

From there I tumbled all the brass for a few hours to get the lube off the cases. Shoulders measured 1.735" and overall brass length were in the 2.088 -2.090" range.

After all the cases have been clean and sorted out from the tumbling media I then primed (215M) and loaded some at 66grs of H4831sc with 185gr Berger VLD 0.015" off the lands for barrel break in purposes. I also loaded 10 rounds from 65.5gr-70.5gr in 0.5gr increments to run a ladder test for *censored*s and giggles. As I was following Proof Research's break in barrel process I noticed that I would have sporadic pressure signs with 66grs. Every few shots the bolt would be hard to extract.

Afterwards I shot the ladder loads just to see where I would hit actual pressure. I shot each charge weight examining the brass/ primers looking for pressure signs. The only ones that jammed were 69gr and 70.5gr in this ladder test. Yes some of you might think I was crazy to keep shooting after seeing pressure but I would have stopped if I had two in a row that jammed. After this range trip was when I started posting about my issues with this new rifle.

I made a second trip to the range starting even lower on the ladder at 61gr - 65.5gr of H4831sc in 0.5gr increments with 185gr VLD's seated 0.015 off the lands and a second set with the same charge weights seated 0.020" off the lands. The results were

0.015" Off the lands
                               
61gr- jammed
62.5gr jammed
everything else shot and cycled smoothly

0.020" off the lands

these pretty much had issues (hard to extract) besides 64gr, 65gr, and 65.5gr

As you guys can tell I'm pretty frustrated at this point. So I took some of your guys suggestions and fire formed the rest of my brass using 150gr SST bullets paired with 64gr of IMR 4350 that I hardly use. I seated them at 0.015" off the lands. A handful of these were hard to extract.

Well after fire forming all my brass and total round count now over 100 rounds I get back to sizing and case prep for actual load development. As a norm I bump all my shoulders 0.002" so that's what I did. Setting up the FL sizing die again by ramming the shell holder up and screwing the die down until it touches and then from there turning it down slightly until my shoulder bump measured 0.002".

Thinking back I noticed from the beginning that most of the ammo I have fed into this rifle needed a little extra force to close the bolt. So here's where I decided to see if a fire formed brass that has been FL resized with the shoulders bumped 0.002" would chamber smoothly.

I removed the firing pin from the bolt and placed a piece of prepped brass into the chamber. I ran the bolt up and it just gets stuck, it won't even close unless I give it a hard push forward and then down. If you watched Eric Cortina's video on shoulder bump you would see how easily his rifle would chamber a piece of brass bumped back 0.002". Out of curiosity I tested this same process with my 700 .308 and a piece of prepped brass that was fired from that rifle. The results were pretty much the same as what Mr. Cortina got from his video.

From there I decided to try bumping the shoulder more on the 300 WSM in case that's what it needed. I was aiming for 0.003"-0.004" more shoulder bump and somehow managed to squeeze out 0.003" shoulder bump but then realized that my die was bottomed out already.

So that's where we are now. I can make the prepped brass with 0.002" shoulder bump fit into the chamber if I give it some force. But that's where I'm scratching my head thinking I should not have to use this much force to chamber a piece of sized brass that was fire formed from this rifle. Again this has happened from the beginning with all the loads I have shot in my 101 count. I jut thought *censored* would loosen up with the more rounds I put into it which is why it leads me back to what b23 said a few pages back that I probably have a sizing issue. Maybe my die has been the culprit this whole time since I had similar results in a Model 7 300 WSM using this die. This same issue with the Model 7 was what led to this whole custom build thing. I took Shawn's advice and sold the Model 7 and collected parts for the build.

Hopefully that clears things up. Writing has never been my favorite so again I apologize if things aren't clear.

As of now I just purchased another RCBS FL 300 WSM sizing die new from Sportsmans to see if my old die is the issue.


Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 08, 2020, 11:45:15 AM
Whats the specs on an fired piece of brass? Also cancel your die order and order some Redding dies.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 11:55:41 AM
Whats the specs on an fired piece of brass? Also cancel your die order and order some Redding dies.

1.738-1.739” on the shoulders. I just went to to local Sportsman’s and bought one. Redding bushing dies is next on the list.

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 08, 2020, 12:02:55 PM

 :yeah:
Or Forster or even Hornady.   
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 08, 2020, 12:10:58 PM
Whats the specs on an fired piece of brass? Also cancel your die order and order some Redding dies.

1.738-1.739” on the shoulders. I just went to to local Sportsman’s and bought one. Redding bushing dies is next on the list.
and will the bolt close on a fired piece?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 08, 2020, 12:11:14 PM
Also cancel your die order and order some Redding dies.

I'm partial to Redding dies so I always recommend them but the above would be my suggestion as well and if you want to go with a bushing die Redding Type S Bushing FL sizing die (Part # 77223) would be my die of choice.

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 12:18:14 PM
Whats the specs on an fired piece of brass? Also cancel your die order and order some Redding dies.

1.738-1.739” on the shoulders. I just went to to local Sportsman’s and bought one. Redding bushing dies is next on the list.
and will the bolt close on a fired piece?

No sir. Maybe with some force but I didn't want to damage anything.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 08, 2020, 12:19:08 PM
Maybe you're already doing this, but when using the stripped bolt method I also like to pull the ejector out as well so there is nothing putting any kind resistance on the bolt.  Then I size my brass till the bolt handle will nearly fall closed on its own weight.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 12:22:31 PM
Maybe you're already doing this, but when using the stripped bolt method I also like to pull the ejector out as well so there is nothing putting any kind resistance on the bolt.  Then I size my brass till the bolt handle will nearly fall closed on its own weight.

The ejector is still in the bolt. I'll have to look up videos how to remove that.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 08, 2020, 12:29:09 PM
Maybe you're already doing this, but when using the stripped bolt method I also like to pull the ejector out as well so there is nothing putting any kind resistance on the bolt.  Then I size my brass till the bolt handle will nearly fall closed on its own weight.

The ejector is still in the bolt. I'll have to look up videos how to remove that.
please don't. Its real easy to tweek them.  If you can, compare some body measurements between fired and sized to see if the die is actually doing anything. I avoid loading threads like the plague because its normally sloppy practices that are to blame and people don't like hearing that but your measurements are where a fired piece should be and if in fact you're bumping them back to .736ish and they won't chamber then then im guessing its a case body issue. Your pressure issues are weird as well because you shouldn't be hitting pressure till well north of 70gr with those 185's.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 08, 2020, 12:33:34 PM
Maybe you're already doing this, but when using the stripped bolt method I also like to pull the ejector out as well so there is nothing putting any kind resistance on the bolt.  Then I size my brass till the bolt handle will nearly fall closed on its own weight.

The ejector is still in the bolt. I'll have to look up videos how to remove that.
please don't. Its real easy to tweek them. 

Karl, ejector, not extractor. 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 12:43:36 PM
Maybe you're already doing this, but when using the stripped bolt method I also like to pull the ejector out as well so there is nothing putting any kind resistance on the bolt.  Then I size my brass till the bolt handle will nearly fall closed on its own weight.

The ejector is still in the bolt. I'll have to look up videos how to remove that.
please don't. Its real easy to tweek them.  If you can, compare some body measurements between fired and sized to see if the die is actually doing anything. I avoid loading threads like the plague because its normally sloppy practices that are to blame and people don't like hearing that but your measurements are where a fired piece should be and if in fact you're bumping them back to .736ish and they won't chamber then then im guessing its a case body issue. Your pressure issues are weird as well because you shouldn't be hitting pressure till well north of 70gr with those 185's.

I'm going to load up some more test loads to shoot so that I can measure a fired body size to one that's been fl resized as you recommended. I'm willing to admit if it's my own sloppy reloading skills but at this point I don't really know what to blame.

The pressure issue I'm assuming is probably caused by the brass not being sized correctly like b23 mentioned before as I agree I shouldn't be seeing pressure signs so low in the powder charge weight.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 12:45:03 PM
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 08, 2020, 12:50:03 PM
I'm definitely not saying its you. I was just acknowledging why I seldom participate in these threads but your fired cases seem normal from a chamber aspect.  It sounds like you have had multiple 300 WSM rifles and issues with all of them and all with the same die. Seeing a pattern yet?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 12:52:14 PM
I'm definitely not saying its you. I was just acknowledging why I seldom participate in these threads but your fired cases seem normal from a chamber aspect.  It sounds like you have had multiple 300 WSM rifles and issues with all of them and all with the same die. Seeing a pattern yet?

Yes reason why I went and purchased a new one just to see if that was the issue. Maybe the RCBS dies just suck? Hopefully I can return this one and order a Redding die set like you suggested. I use this die for my old man's Browning 300 WSM with no issues. At this point I'm kind of at a loss.  :dunno:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: 2MANY on October 08, 2020, 12:52:19 PM
Karl you need to watch your mouth.
LOL
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 08, 2020, 12:56:23 PM
Based on watching you close the bolt on a piece of brass it almost seems like you have a tight extractor because it seems like your resistance is coming in the very first part of you closing the bolt and the extractor is snapping over the rim.  You do it kind of fast so it's hard to tell but it almost looks as though once the extractor snaps over the rim there isn't really much resistance, it's just that initial part of closing the bolt where you have the greatest amount of issue.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 01:01:25 PM
Based on watching you close the bolt on a piece of brass it almost seems like you have a tight extractor because it seems like your resistance is coming in the very first part of you closing the bolt and the extractor is snapping over the rim.  You do it kind of fast so it's hard to tell but it almost looks as though once the extractor snaps over the rim there isn't really much resistance, it's just that initial part of closing the bolt where you have the greatest amount of issue.

You might be onto something. It is only happening when I first start to close the bolt. Once I get over that little lump it's actually really smooth.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 08, 2020, 01:06:49 PM
Can you manually put tue brass inside the extractor and push it against the ejector and close the bolt? See how it feels then?

If it was a case geometry issue you could color the whole case with a sharpie and them chamber it to see where it hits.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 01:14:07 PM
Here's a slower video.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Stein on October 08, 2020, 01:17:05 PM
I'm definitely not saying its you. I was just acknowledging why I seldom participate in these threads but your fired cases seem normal from a chamber aspect.  It sounds like you have had multiple 300 WSM rifles and issues with all of them and all with the same die. Seeing a pattern yet?

Yes reason why I went and purchased a new one just to see if that was the issue. Maybe the RCBS dies just suck? Hopefully I can return this one and order a Redding die set like you suggested. I use this die for my old man's Browning 300 WSM with no issues. At this point I'm kind of at a loss.  :dunno:

Redding type S are pretty much at the top of the list for a bunch of people that are competing and winning in F class, so I figured they should be good enough for me.  I've only had mine for a couple weeks now, but just got back from another range trip and am completely satisfied.  The only thing is you have to buy the bushings and they are brand specific to brass and if you don't get it right you have to order another one and wait instead of just adjusting something.  Fortunately, I think I got it right first try.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 01:22:08 PM
Can you manually put tue brass inside the extractor and push it against the ejector and close the bolt? See how it feels then?

If it was a case geometry issue you could color the whole case with a sharpie and them chamber it to see where it hits.

Good idea I’ll have to try that.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 08, 2020, 01:22:14 PM
Sure seems like once you get past the extractor there is little to no resistance so I'm strongly leaning toward the extractor causing your grief, at least with regard to bolt closure.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 08, 2020, 01:23:49 PM
Sure seems like once you get past the extractor there is little to no resistance so I'm strongly leaning toward the extractor causing your grief, at least with regard to bolt closure.
:yeah: One of my custom actions has an extractor that takes a bit of force to snap over the rim.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 08, 2020, 01:54:17 PM
Not to get into any kind of extractor debate as to which type is best or that you even need to change what you have, but if you ever wanted to upgrade the extractor I'd recommend going with a M16 type extractor over any of the others.  IMO, the pinned extractors like the M16 type are the best largely because they are pinned.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 04:15:04 PM
Not to get into any kind of extractor debate as to which type is best or that you even need to change what you have, but if you ever wanted to upgrade the extractor I'd recommend going with a M16 type extractor over any of the others.  IMO, the pinned extractors like the M16 type are the best largely because they are pinned.

Shawn mentioned about the M16 extractor. I didn’t really think I needed it at the time so I opted out. Maybe in the future I’ll get it done.

But back on topic about a tight extractor, I took a picture of my bolt face earlier and noticed a lot of brass shavings.

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: callturner on October 08, 2020, 04:33:47 PM
Did you try your new sizing die?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 08, 2020, 04:41:54 PM
Paint that brass up with a sharpie and cram it in there see where its hitting - coat then neck end well too.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 08, 2020, 04:50:17 PM
Did you try your new sizing die?

I will try tomorrow after I run some rounds through the rifle. I used it today to try and see if I could bump the shoulder some more but it’s bottoming out like my original one. So once I get back from the range tomorrrow I’ll put some freshly shot brass through it. However I’m pretty sure b23 nailed it when he said I might have a tight extractor. Once the extractor goes over the rim of the brass the bolt closes smoothly.

Paint that brass up with a sharpie and cram it in there see where its hitting - coat then neck end well too.

I will do that tonight.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 08, 2020, 06:20:23 PM
After seeing the video I agree is the extractor and probably a hair of the ejector aswell
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 08, 2020, 06:27:06 PM
Finally got home on wifi and watched your vid. Id concur with others.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 09, 2020, 07:27:21 PM
Through all of this I don’t think we have heard how well it shoots?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 09, 2020, 10:09:17 PM
Through all of this I don’t think we have heard how well it shoots?


It’s a shooter. 3 shots. I’ll be running this load through the chronograph tomorrow to see what the ES and SD are.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 09, 2020, 10:10:22 PM
Nice
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 09, 2020, 10:16:54 PM
Not where I want to be in velocity yet but with time crunch it’ll do until after hunting season is over.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 28, 2020, 08:34:25 PM
First official kill with this thing.

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on October 28, 2020, 08:41:40 PM
Very nice, congrats!!!  :tup:

What bullet did you end up using?
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Taco280AI on October 28, 2020, 08:57:44 PM
Nice shooting and buck  :tup:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on October 28, 2020, 09:13:15 PM
Very nice, congrats!!!  :tup:

What bullet did you end up using?

Thanks, I went with the 185gr Berger VLD hunting.

Nice shooting and buck  :tup:

Thank you.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Stein on October 28, 2020, 09:22:45 PM
Geez, looks like you got things sorted out.  Nice one!
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on October 28, 2020, 10:06:32 PM
Nice buck.  Looking forward to the video
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: callturner on October 29, 2020, 04:31:45 AM
Nice deer, looks like another taxidermy bill.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 27, 2022, 09:03:34 AM
2 year update on this rifle.

The barrel officially has 1000 rounds down the pipe and is still shooting 1/2 MOA. I shot these back to back yesterday and called it good. I can probably tighten it up some with more tuner testing but those Federal 215M primers are hard to find so I'm leaving it the way it is.

The extracting issue I was having with this rifle was a brass (Hornady) issue. The problem was still there after having a m16 extractor installed. I made the switch to Norma brass a couple hundred rounds later and the problem went away.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 27, 2022, 09:04:19 AM
Second group. Both 100 yards.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: HooknoseHunter on September 27, 2022, 11:03:45 AM
Looks like it’s a shooter Dan!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7n6LES2VI

Just messing with you, 671 is a LONG shot.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 27, 2022, 12:51:10 PM
Looks like it’s a shooter Dan!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7n6LES2VI

Just messing with you, 671 is a LONG shot.

Daniel…It’s been a shooter. The gun was shooting 2 inches low during that trip. Should’ve checked zero after my wife tripped with it in Idaho but totally spaced it.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: jasnt on September 28, 2022, 06:20:57 AM
Glad to hear ya got it all figured out and shooting like it should. 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 28, 2022, 08:25:44 PM
Glad to hear ya got it all figured out and shooting like it should.

Yeah it was a headache for awhile but it’s been shooting great ever since. We have taken many game with it in the time I’ve owned it.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: idahohuntr on September 28, 2022, 09:16:55 PM
Scope: Leupold VX6 HD 3-18x50 TMOA
Looks like it’s a shooter Dan!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7n6LES2VI

Just messing with you, 671 is a LONG shot.

Daniel…It’s been a shooter. The gun was shooting 2 inches low during that trip. Should’ve checked zero after my wife tripped with it in Idaho but totally spaced it.

Just fyi...maybe you swap out optics, but a VX6 is not legal for big game hunting in Idaho.  Even if you remove battery, disable electronics etc. Its the electronic level that is the issue. 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 29, 2022, 04:54:42 AM
Scope: Leupold VX6 HD 3-18x50 TMOA
Looks like it’s a shooter Dan!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7n6LES2VI

Just messing with you, 671 is a LONG shot.

Daniel…It’s been a shooter. The gun was shooting 2 inches low during that trip. Should’ve checked zero after my wife tripped with it in Idaho but totally spaced it.

Just fyi...maybe you swap out optics, but a VX6 is not legal for big game hunting in Idaho.  Even if you remove battery, disable electronics etc. Its the electronic level that is the issue.

I’ve heard it both ways. It’s battery operated and is a part of the lighted reticle. Guess I’ll have to call fish and game to get a solid answer.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/are-laser-range-rifle-scopes-legal-idaho-big-game-hunting
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: idahohuntr on September 29, 2022, 12:37:19 PM
Scope: Leupold VX6 HD 3-18x50 TMOA
Looks like it’s a shooter Dan!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7n6LES2VI

Just messing with you, 671 is a LONG shot.

Daniel…It’s been a shooter. The gun was shooting 2 inches low during that trip. Should’ve checked zero after my wife tripped with it in Idaho but totally spaced it.

Just fyi...maybe you swap out optics, but a VX6 is not legal for big game hunting in Idaho.  Even if you remove battery, disable electronics etc. Its the electronic level that is the issue.

I’ve heard it both ways. It’s battery operated and is a part of the lighted reticle. Guess I’ll have to call fish and game to get a solid answer.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/are-laser-range-rifle-scopes-legal-idaho-big-game-hunting
I probably heard some of the same stuff as you...so about 8 months ago I did the same thing and called their HQ and talked to the enforcement chief.  He told me 100% illegal, taking battery out doesn't resolve it, full stop.  I pushed several angles (including the notion it just lights/flashes the reticle...and lighted reticles are legal)...no go.   

He did go on about offer discretion and many factors go into whether someone with a VX6 would get cited...but also made it very clear to me there is no gray in their eyes on whether that scope is legal for big game hunting in Idaho...the gray is in whether you would get a ticket, a warning, or nothing from whichever officer you encountered. 

After that call I went with a VX5 because I hunt Idaho so much and didn't want to be at the whims of an officer's discretion. 
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: baker5150 on September 29, 2022, 12:50:59 PM
Scope: Leupold VX6 HD 3-18x50 TMOA
Looks like it’s a shooter Dan!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7n6LES2VI

Just messing with you, 671 is a LONG shot.

Daniel…It’s been a shooter. The gun was shooting 2 inches low during that trip. Should’ve checked zero after my wife tripped with it in Idaho but totally spaced it.

Just fyi...maybe you swap out optics, but a VX6 is not legal for big game hunting in Idaho.  Even if you remove battery, disable electronics etc. Its the electronic level that is the issue.

I’ve heard it both ways. It’s battery operated and is a part of the lighted reticle. Guess I’ll have to call fish and game to get a solid answer.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/are-laser-range-rifle-scopes-legal-idaho-big-game-hunting
I probably heard some of the same stuff as you...so about 8 months ago I did the same thing and called their HQ and talked to the enforcement chief.  He told me 100% illegal, taking battery out doesn't resolve it, full stop.  I pushed several angles (including the notion it just lights/flashes the reticle...and lighted reticles are legal)...no go.   

He did go on about offer discretion and many factors go into whether someone with a VX6 would get cited...but also made it very clear to me there is no gray in their eyes on whether that scope is legal for big game hunting in Idaho...the gray is in whether you would get a ticket, a warning, or nothing from whichever officer you encountered. 

After that call I went with a VX5 because I hunt Idaho so much and didn't want to be at the whims of an officer's discretion.

Not all VX6 scopes are illuminated.

Illuminated Reticles are completely legal in Idaho.  You got bad or old info..

This is taken from the regs themselves...

Page 100




Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: idahohuntr on September 29, 2022, 12:54:40 PM
Scope: Leupold VX6 HD 3-18x50 TMOA
Looks like it’s a shooter Dan!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7n6LES2VI

Just messing with you, 671 is a LONG shot.

Daniel…It’s been a shooter. The gun was shooting 2 inches low during that trip. Should’ve checked zero after my wife tripped with it in Idaho but totally spaced it.

Just fyi...maybe you swap out optics, but a VX6 is not legal for big game hunting in Idaho.  Even if you remove battery, disable electronics etc. Its the electronic level that is the issue.

I’ve heard it both ways. It’s battery operated and is a part of the lighted reticle. Guess I’ll have to call fish and game to get a solid answer.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/are-laser-range-rifle-scopes-legal-idaho-big-game-hunting
I probably heard some of the same stuff as you...so about 8 months ago I did the same thing and called their HQ and talked to the enforcement chief.  He told me 100% illegal, taking battery out doesn't resolve it, full stop.  I pushed several angles (including the notion it just lights/flashes the reticle...and lighted reticles are legal)...no go.   

He did go on about offer discretion and many factors go into whether someone with a VX6 would get cited...but also made it very clear to me there is no gray in their eyes on whether that scope is legal for big game hunting in Idaho...the gray is in whether you would get a ticket, a warning, or nothing from whichever officer you encountered. 

After that call I went with a VX5 because I hunt Idaho so much and didn't want to be at the whims of an officer's discretion.

Not all VX6 scopes are illuminated.

Illuminated Reticles are completely legal in Idaho.  You got bad or old info..

This is taken from the regs themselves...

Page 100
[/quote]
No, you misread what I stated.  Its the electronic level component of the VX6 that makes it illegal in Idaho...the second bullet of your posted reg picture...can't have any electronics in a scope...except lighted reticles.  An electronic level is not allowed...and last I checked with Leupold they do not make a VX6 without the electronic level.  I wish they did.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: baker5150 on September 29, 2022, 01:00:53 PM
Scope: Leupold VX6 HD 3-18x50 TMOA
Looks like it’s a shooter Dan!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7n6LES2VI

Just messing with you, 671 is a LONG shot.

Daniel…It’s been a shooter. The gun was shooting 2 inches low during that trip. Should’ve checked zero after my wife tripped with it in Idaho but totally spaced it.

Just fyi...maybe you swap out optics, but a VX6 is not legal for big game hunting in Idaho.  Even if you remove battery, disable electronics etc. Its the electronic level that is the issue.

I’ve heard it both ways. It’s battery operated and is a part of the lighted reticle. Guess I’ll have to call fish and game to get a solid answer.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/are-laser-range-rifle-scopes-legal-idaho-big-game-hunting
I probably heard some of the same stuff as you...so about 8 months ago I did the same thing and called their HQ and talked to the enforcement chief.  He told me 100% illegal, taking battery out doesn't resolve it, full stop.  I pushed several angles (including the notion it just lights/flashes the reticle...and lighted reticles are legal)...no go.   

He did go on about offer discretion and many factors go into whether someone with a VX6 would get cited...but also made it very clear to me there is no gray in their eyes on whether that scope is legal for big game hunting in Idaho...the gray is in whether you would get a ticket, a warning, or nothing from whichever officer you encountered. 

After that call I went with a VX5 because I hunt Idaho so much and didn't want to be at the whims of an officer's discretion.

Not all VX6 scopes are illuminated.

Illuminated Reticles are completely legal in Idaho.  You got bad or old info..

This is taken from the regs themselves...

Page 100
No, you misread what I stated.  Its the electronic level component of the VX6 that makes it illegal in Idaho...the second bullet of your posted reg picture...can't have any electronics in a scope...except lighted reticles.  An electronic level is not allowed...and last I checked with Leupold they do not make a VX6 without the electronic level.  I wish they did.
[/quote]

Ahh  yes, my apologies.   

Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: baker5150 on September 29, 2022, 01:04:40 PM
Scope: Leupold VX6 HD 3-18x50 TMOA
Looks like it’s a shooter Dan!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7n6LES2VI

Just messing with you, 671 is a LONG shot.

Daniel…It’s been a shooter. The gun was shooting 2 inches low during that trip. Should’ve checked zero after my wife tripped with it in Idaho but totally spaced it.

Just fyi...maybe you swap out optics, but a VX6 is not legal for big game hunting in Idaho.  Even if you remove battery, disable electronics etc. Its the electronic level that is the issue.

I’ve heard it both ways. It’s battery operated and is a part of the lighted reticle. Guess I’ll have to call fish and game to get a solid answer.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/are-laser-range-rifle-scopes-legal-idaho-big-game-hunting
I probably heard some of the same stuff as you...so about 8 months ago I did the same thing and called their HQ and talked to the enforcement chief.  He told me 100% illegal, taking battery out doesn't resolve it, full stop.  I pushed several angles (including the notion it just lights/flashes the reticle...and lighted reticles are legal)...no go.   

He did go on about offer discretion and many factors go into whether someone with a VX6 would get cited...but also made it very clear to me there is no gray in their eyes on whether that scope is legal for big game hunting in Idaho...the gray is in whether you would get a ticket, a warning, or nothing from whichever officer you encountered. 

After that call I went with a VX5 because I hunt Idaho so much and didn't want to be at the whims of an officer's discretion.

Not all VX6 scopes are illuminated.

Illuminated Reticles are completely legal in Idaho.  You got bad or old info..

This is taken from the regs themselves...

Page 100
No, you misread what I stated.  Its the electronic level component of the VX6 that makes it illegal in Idaho...the second bullet of your posted reg picture...can't have any electronics in a scope...except lighted reticles.  An electronic level is not allowed...and last I checked with Leupold they do not make a VX6 without the electronic level.  I wish they did.

Ahh  yes, my apologies.
[/quote]

Looks like they offer 1 model VX6 without the electronic level

VX-6 7-42X56 CDS SIDE FOCUS TARGET TMOA PLUS
Part # 118504

Also does NOT have the Illum retilce.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Karl Blanchard on September 29, 2022, 01:12:04 PM
While technically not legal in Idaho, I'd wager to bet that there's oceans of vx6's in the idaho deer woods every year. It would be a pretty salty warden to write you a ticket for that one. 

My reasoning for ditching the vx6 would be more for their dismal reputation for tracking and zero retention. Leupold just continues to miss the mark on their LR scopes  :twocents:
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 29, 2022, 01:13:34 PM
Guess I’ll use my Nightforce in Idaho. As for the VX6 HD I have had no issues with it tracking or holding zero unless bumped pretty hard. I’ll have to do a tall target test.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on September 29, 2022, 01:48:15 PM
I see Shawn recently dumped a big 56 in. Alaskan Moose at 1552yds and I can pretty much guarantee he was using a NF scope.  When it comes to tracking, repeatability, and holding zero, NF is pretty hard to beat.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 29, 2022, 02:01:09 PM
I see Shawn recently dumped a big 56 in. Alaskan Moose at 1552yds and I can pretty much guarantee he was using a NF scope.  When it comes to tracking, repeatability, and holding zero, NF is pretty hard to beat.

I saw that as well. I like NF, I wanted something lighter that still had a 50mm obj lens and the VX6 HD fit that pretty well. So far it's served me well if I could do my part. Granted I'll never shoot that far. I'll keep my Leupold for Washington and use my 6.5CM with the NF scope for Idaho deer or throw my NF on the 300WSM if I want to use it in Idaho.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: b23 on September 29, 2022, 02:20:57 PM
If weight is a concern have you looked at NF's NX8 line of scopes?  The NX8 scopes are pretty comparable in weight to the Leupold VX6 series scopes.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: dmoua on September 29, 2022, 02:54:23 PM
If weight is a concern have you looked at NF's NX8 line of scopes?  The NX8 scopes are pretty comparable in weight to the Leupold VX6 series scopes.

The NX8 was an option but at the time there was no offering in SFP. I believe the 4-32x50 is 8 ounces heavier than the VX6 HD. My brother in law gets 40% off Leupold scopes so that had a play in my decision. The goal for the build was to keep it under or at 9lbs. Currently 8.8lbs with no bipod. I have a few purchases I want to make for my reloading setup so the VX6 HD will do for now.
Title: Re: The wait begins
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 25, 2022, 07:43:25 PM
If weight is a concern have you looked at NF's NX8 line of scopes?  The NX8 scopes are pretty comparable in weight to the Leupold VX6 series scopes.

The NX8 was an option but at the time there was no offering in SFP. I believe the 4-32x50 is 8 ounces heavier than the VX6 HD. My brother in law gets 40% off Leupold scopes so that had a play in my decision. The goal for the build was to keep it under or at 9lbs. Currently 8.8lbs with no bipod. I have a few purchases I want to make for my reloading setup so the VX6 HD will do for now.

Late to party but VX-6 4-24 is 25.4 OZ, NX8 4-32 is 28.6  oz.  or just 3 oz heavier and much more durable plus extra 8power more zoom and 3 oz lighter than Leupy Mark V.
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