Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 01:53:32 PM
Who throws on their packs, their bino harnesses, a rain jacket or down parka, and practices their preferred woods carry method?
I've seen many different forms of woods carry and tried out a number if them myself, from drop leg, to low ride to chest rigs...I'm not so interested in your particular method of carry that works for you, but what you do to practice.
Literally all of my shooting is tactical and self defensive in nature, but it doesn't all carry over smoothly to woods carry.
I've practiced drawing while riding a bicycle, I've practiced while walking with sticks,
I've practiced spinning around 180 degrees, I've shot from my back, belly, sideways, kneeling and from fetal positions.
I need to practice with an 80lb pack on, haven't done that!
Who does these things? and what do you do?
Post by: Stein on June 19, 2021, 01:55:29 PM
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Post by: jackelope on June 19, 2021, 03:52:49 PM
That’s why I carry in the same position with the same holster in the woods.
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How is that?
Post by: Stein on June 19, 2021, 04:31:11 PM
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Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 05:07:01 PM
I'm more interested in the training though than the gear.
I'd love to stick this out in a trail brushed in and have people suprised by it, and try to shoot it before it "gets you"
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 19, 2021, 05:13:47 PM
Post by: jstone on June 19, 2021, 05:17:26 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 05:34:32 PM
I also have the exo pack. I put my pistol holster on the skinny Velcro strap that is on the waist belt. Probably usually would hold a pouchThat's what that guide in Montana did, when the bear charged....his pack was "over there"
He had about 3 seconds to react, he needed 15, since the gun was with his pack "over there" he would have had to see, recognize the threat, and move to the gun, deploy it, and be effective in its use.
With the safariiland you can get a quick disconnect and transfer the pustol to your hip, but that's a lot of messing around.
You need to develop musle memory and habit, in a panic your hand lands on the pistol automagicly and its in play, moving the pistol around to different positions on your body doesn't aid in that.
Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 05:47:18 PM
Interesting KF what do you think that the charge distance would be to have the charge?I guess I don't understand the question fully?
At what distances do bears decide to charge, or not to charge, is the question 🤔
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 19, 2021, 05:50:37 PM
I am just trying to make sense of your scenario.
Thanks
Post by: BLDtraLR on June 19, 2021, 05:52:56 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 06:07:10 PM
If you are going to set this up what distance would you want for this to be. Under 30 yards or under 100 yards.I don't see a point in 100 yards, as we prolly shouldn't be shooting at bear that far away, but I'd use the time to start backing away and having pistol ready.
I am just trying to make sense of your scenario.
Thanks
At 30 yards I'm shooting.
So I'd set it up where it takes the bear 3 seconds to reach you at charging speed, in that three seconds I'd expect 3 rounds fired and 3 good hits on the bear.
You could practice this,
3 seconds
3 shots
3 inch circle
Do it at 3 yards to start.
Post by: jstone on June 19, 2021, 06:09:43 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 06:13:31 PM
This -----> I've practiced spinning around 180 degrees, I've shot from my back, belly, sideways, kneeling and from fetal positions. 1 hand and left hand shots are fun. I've also practiced spinng around with my bow in hand one handed shooting it's a waaaay different ball game with a 10mm and 1 hand. Like you i want to be ready in the case of a bear charge. I've also found some narly/ scary looking grizz targets to use. I tried to have a person move the target closer as i'm shooting at the gun range to simulate a charge which is super great practice but they don't like it nor did they really like the grizz target. :dunno: :dunno: :chuckle: :tup: This is why i tried and love the ghost ring sight on the 10 for woods carry anything inside the ring is center mass and its fail safe. :tup:We could be friends
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 19, 2021, 06:15:42 PM
So have a by stander roll it down hill from your choice of distance and since it is not a perfect flat or level surface might be good enough.
But I am not sure how you will replicate the chunks of adrenaline the size of your fist in your system.
Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 06:18:27 PM
So are you aiming at his face, ForeheadSee this face?
It's pumping up and down, I'm aiming in the middle of it, center mass.
Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 06:20:22 PM
I am guessing that the kill zone would be about the size of your daughter's soccer ball.The instant kill zone is about that size, the incapacitate zone is bigger, the slow it down zone is bigger yet.
So have a by stander roll it down hill from your choice of distance and since it is not a perfect flat or level surface might be good enough.
But I am not sure how you will replicate the chunks of adrenaline the size of your fist in your system.
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 19, 2021, 06:35:21 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 06:44:56 PM
Do you have any data for trained personnel on the amount of hits in a high stress situation?Nationwide, I think FBI puts cops anywhere from 0% to a high of 50% depending on various departments, and they vary a great deal!
But to put a hole in your theory of trained cops must be better than average joes, bad guys tend to have higher accuracy levels in shootings than do the cops.
It doesn't fully equate to woods self defense because cops are taught to scatter like a covy of quail, and get behind cover. Accuracy goes out the window if you're running for cover, so its not thst cops can't shoot, its that they're using bullets as cover until they can find real hard cover.
Also you do not want to trip over brush, logs rocks and debris, and you sure ain't going to make cover from a bear...stand your ground and fire for accuracy.
Apples and Oranges
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 19, 2021, 06:56:03 PM
And if they do what would the percentage be?
Post by: Alchase on June 19, 2021, 06:58:40 PM
But I do believe if you train enough your pistol becomes a part of you.
Two years ago, while dear hunting in SE Oklahoma. I was on a trail in thick timber, when a huge sow wild pig stepped out on the same trail at 15 ft. And turned towards me. Gut reaction at that range, was to shoot her between the eye with my 300 Win Mag, and without thinking, I pulled my .40 cal pistol (mounted cross draw on my pack waist belt) and had her in My sights before she hit the ground.
If I had missed with my rifle shot, I subconsciously knew I would not have time to run the bolt and re-chamber my rifle.
Thinking about it later, was a little surreal. I did not even think to pull my pistol. Yet it was in my hand, and on target.
Luckily I did not need it, the 300Win mag dropped her in her tracks.
On one hand, practicing all aspect of how you carry is a great idea. I also think by just practicing until your weapon becomes a part of you, will also give you an advantage.
I will never know if that sow would have charged from 15 feet away. Considering how many wild pigs there are here, and how many stories I have heard of people getting charged and slashed. My gut was to drop her.
I am even more happy, my instinctive reaction was up to the task.
I do not think that would have been the case without years of pistol practice.
Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 07:15:43 PM
Do you think the military would have a higher percentage of hits?
And if they do what would the percentage be?
I can't answer that.
I know I've shot with about every team, every branch and they range from horrible to very good.
Post by: Alchase on June 19, 2021, 07:18:36 PM
Do you think the military would have a higher percentage of hits?
And if they do what would the percentage be?
I definitely think most combat trained soldiers and sailors maybe not have a higher percentage of hits, but would have a much higher percentage of kills.
Most are trained to shoot and advance, that also provides suppression fire until you get hits.
Most police do not shoot and scoot, or advance. They shoot from cover.
I believe the counting bullets shot, is for people who have no understanding of actual combat. Who the hell cares if it was 8 rounds or 20 if the bad guy is put down?
Yes police are more apt to have civilians in the vicinity that need to be taken into account. And more rounds out means more chances of a innocent getting hit. Honestly I don’t care if a bad guy was shot once or 15 times.
I will leave that for the media.
Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 07:22:21 PM
Post by: jackelope on June 19, 2021, 07:25:56 PM
Post by: Born2late on June 19, 2021, 07:26:43 PM
probably wouldn't work to good in brush but in the open might work better.
Post by: Alchase on June 19, 2021, 07:28:16 PM
About them bears....
Don’t you know?
Most of life’s problems can be solved through excessive amounts of firepower!
:hello:
Post by: KFhunter on June 19, 2021, 07:35:36 PM
It probably goes without saying that you can practice all you want shooting at a charging soccer ball all you want, but when the rubber hits the road and there’s a bear/pig/lion coming for you, it’s a different ball game.This is why muscle memory and scenario training is so important.
Freezeups happen when your brain is faced with a new situation for which it has never encountered before, its your flight, fight or 'stand there like a retard' while the brain develops a solution on the fly, and that's not always the solution you want.
A scenario programs a path in which to follow if its close enough to the situation you trained for, your brain will "boot up that program" and follow through will happen automagically.
The worst is having the gear, but never creating muscle memory and scenario solutions for your brain to follow through with, so you either stand there like a tard, run away, or claw at your clothing, backpack strap, or pull on your bino harness in a febble untrained attempt at getting your gun out.
Its not innate courage, its having the programming and muscle memory already in place to deal with the threat. Essentially, you don't have time for courage, only action.
"It all happened so fast, I can't really remember"
Courage is having a grizz roar at you 100 yards up the trail, and going up there anyways.....
(or maybe stupidity lol. )
Post by: mossback91 on June 19, 2021, 07:48:59 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 19, 2021, 08:25:54 PM
It probably goes without saying that you can practice all you want shooting at a charging soccer ball all you want, but when the rubber hits the road and there’s a bear/pig/lion coming for you, it’s a different ball game.
I used the soccer ball as an example. It won't approach in a flat straight course. You are trying to connect with a moving object.
Post by: Stein on June 19, 2021, 08:27:49 PM
Do you have any data for trained personnel on the amount of hits in a high stress situation?
Yeah, tons of police data out there which is probably a pretty good estimate although I could argue their numbers are higher than with bears since they are mostly aware of the threat and keyed in for much longer than a bear busting out of the brush and surprising you. If I remember right, police hits are about 15%, that's a hit on any part of the body. Hits on a brain or spinal cord, well that's why guys are carrying 10 mm, several more tickets in the lottery of life. Unload at short range and hope it's not your day.
It's the problem with bears, sure you can hit it and it will die in a few minutes to a few hours later but that's an awfully long time to get chewed on.
Post by: konradcountry on June 19, 2021, 09:02:37 PM
I definitely think most combat trained soldiers and sailors maybe not have a higher percentage of hits, but would have a much higher percentage of kills.
Most are trained to shoot and advance, that also provides suppression fire until you get hits.
Unless they are constantly training like in navy seals I really doubt they are any better.
I honestly think better handgun shooters are born with the ability to keep cool.
I grew up around sailors and I would bet on backwoods rednecks any day.
Post by: konradcountry on June 19, 2021, 10:54:43 PM
The worst is having the gear, but never creating muscle memory and scenario solutions for your brain to follow through with, so you either stand there like a tard, run away, or claw at your clothing, backpack strap, or pull on your bino harness in a febble untrained attempt at getting your gun out.
Its not innate courage, its having the programming and muscle memory already in place to deal with the threat. Essentially, you don't have time for courage, only action.
I completely agree that you need to practice with the gear you have. That's a very good point.
But innate courage is a factor and why it has been a valued trait by various societies. There are endless stories about people choking in combat and forgetting their training. I don't think you can train everyone to react the same in a high pressure situation. The military hasn't been able to do that.
Post by: Cougartail on June 20, 2021, 07:14:55 AM
The worst is having the gear, but never creating muscle memory and scenario solutions for your brain to follow through with, so you either stand there like a tard, run away, or claw at your clothing, backpack strap, or pull on your bino harness in a febble untrained attempt at getting your gun out.
Its not innate courage, its having the programming and muscle memory already in place to deal with the threat. Essentially, you don't have time for courage, only action.
I completely agree that you need to practice with the gear you have. That's a very good point.
But innate courage is a factor and why it has been a valued trait by various societies. There are endless stories about people choking in combat and forgetting their training. I don't think you can train everyone to react the same in a high pressure situation. The military hasn't been able to do that.
An innteresting read is from Ammoland in 2020. It lists 93 confirmed bear attacks were a handgun was use. They claim a 97% success rate with handguns and it doesn't sound like everybody was trained or using an "adequate"calibers
Post by: jackelope on June 20, 2021, 01:22:11 PM
It probably goes without saying that you can practice all you want shooting at a charging soccer ball all you want, but when the rubber hits the road and there’s a bear/pig/lion coming for you, it’s a different ball game.
I used the soccer ball as an example. It won't approach in a flat straight course. You are trying to connect with a moving object.
I was also just using it as an example. Totally get the training reference. I was just saying it’s a low stress scenario.
Post by: jasnt on June 20, 2021, 08:14:34 PM
Post by: jstone on June 20, 2021, 08:46:38 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 21, 2021, 06:54:26 AM
Post by: thinkingman on June 21, 2021, 08:04:22 AM
I am guessing that the kill zone would be about the size of your daughter's soccer ball.Yup.
So have a by stander roll it down hill from your choice of distance and since it is not a perfect flat or level surface might be good enough.
But I am not sure how you will replicate the chunks of adrenaline the size of your fist in your system.
Practice scenario....Buy all the cheap soccer balls you can find at garage sales....Sprint uphill in a recent clearcut, kick the ball uphill 20 yards and put good hits on it as it rolls/bounces/careens downhill toward you.
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 21, 2021, 08:11:14 AM
I am guessing that the kill zone would be about the size of your daughter's soccer ball.Yup.
So have a by stander roll it down hill from your choice of distance and since it is not a perfect flat or level surface might be good enough.
But I am not sure how you will replicate the chunks of adrenaline the size of your fist in your system.
Practice scenario....Buy all the cheap soccer balls you can find at garage sales....Sprint uphill in a recent clearcut, kick the ball uphill 20 yards and put good hits on it as it rolls/bounces/careens downhill toward you.
Just remember to pick them up when you leave.
Post by: Rob on June 21, 2021, 08:25:36 AM
There's a guy you just don't prank and startle lol
Ha! No kidding!
I tell folks when camping not to sneak up on my tent at night to be funny - I don't wake up with a good sense of humor!
Post by: ctwiggs1 on June 21, 2021, 10:23:29 AM
CouragePoaching is having a grizz roar at you 100 yards up the trail, and going up there anyways.....
(or maybe stupidity lol. )
Fixed that for you :tup: :chuckle:
Post by: KFhunter on June 21, 2021, 11:07:02 AM
Getting real, I won't SSS any critter though it's just not worth it. You pop a wolf and save a few deer for what? The next wolf? His littermate thanks you, more for him.
Pop a grizz and they'll scour every trail camera, question every witnesses, maybe even check cell pings, they'll do more for that grizz than a missing child, and pay a higher reward for any info than a missing child gets.
It's sick.
That first wolf that was shot in stevens county had more reward than a missing child from same the county.
That 1st wolf went well north of 20 grand, this last one is 15 grand. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210621/214b6810b878237f21ea29615e17e739.jpg)
Post by: ctwiggs1 on June 21, 2021, 11:10:51 AM
I think I know what you mean, tongue in cheek? Lol
Getting real, I won't SSS any critter though it's just not worth it. You pop a wolf and save a few deer for what? The next wolf? His littermate thanks you, more for him.
Pop a grizz and they'll scour every trail camera, question every witnesses, maybe even check cell pings, they'll do more for that grizz than a missing child, and pay a higher reward for any info than a missing child gets.
It's sick.
That first wolf that was shot in stevens county had more reward than a missing child from same the county.
That 1st wolf went well north of 20 grand, this last one is 15 grand. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210621/214b6810b878237f21ea29615e17e739.jpg)
Just flipping you crap, glad you caught it ;-)
That's a very good demonstration of how off our scale of priorities is.
Post by: Rob on June 21, 2021, 12:06:22 PM
Post by: jasnt on June 21, 2021, 07:09:39 PM
There's a guy you just don't prank and startle lolI’ve had so many encounters with cougar and moose I take zero chances. Had a cow moose still sporting afterbirth charge me over a dozen times. Thank god she stopped just short every time. My knees where knocking. I almost shot her 3 times. I did not want that and every time I tried to back off I got charged again. Scary situation.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on June 21, 2021, 07:11:18 PM
There's a guy you just don't prank and startle lolI’ve had so many encounters with cougar and moose I take zero chances. Had a cow moose still sporting afterbirth charge me over a dozen times. Thank god she stopped just short every time. My knees where knocking. I almost shot her 3 times. I did not want that and every time I tried to back off I got charged again. Scary situation.
I got buzzed by a hummingbird earlier this afternoon so you could say I know what you’re talking about.
Post by: fishngamereaper on June 21, 2021, 07:14:07 PM
Kidding...
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 21, 2021, 07:20:27 PM
Boy you guys are a might bit jumpy... maybe you should switch to golf... :chuckle:
Kidding...
I was wondering how many bathroom mirrors have been replaced and holes patched in the walls.
Just asking for a friend 😄😄
Post by: Rob on June 21, 2021, 08:09:47 PM
There's a guy you just don't prank and startle lolI’ve had so many encounters with cougar and moose I take zero chances. Had a cow moose still sporting afterbirth charge me over a dozen times. Thank god she stopped just short every time. My knees where knocking. I almost shot her 3 times. I did not want that and every time I tried to back off I got charged again. Scary situation.
I got buzzed by a hummingbird earlier this afternoon so you could say I know what you’re talking about.
Those humming birds are not to be underestimated! Have dang near knocked me off climbing routes!
Post by: Dan-o on June 21, 2021, 08:34:49 PM
There's a guy you just don't prank and startle lolI’ve had so many encounters with cougar and moose I take zero chances. Had a cow moose still sporting afterbirth charge me over a dozen times. Thank god she stopped just short every time. My knees where knocking. I almost shot her 3 times. I did not want that and every time I tried to back off I got charged again. Scary situation.
I got buzzed by a hummingbird earlier this afternoon so you could say I know what you’re talking about.
I empathize with both of you.....
1. Many years ago, I was charged by a cow moose when I came upon her and her calf. I kept a tree between us as she came at me a couple times. Scared does not adequately describe it.
* Anyone who thinks cow moose charges aren't scary is wrong.
2. On my honeymoon (39 years ago) we were picnicking in a field of wild flowers in Northern Utah. We'd seen a bear earlier, which was cool........ until I was attacked by a bear from behind!!!! I jumped up and tried to fend the bear off while screaming at my wife to run. I figured 2 days was a pretty short marriage but I was gonna go down swinging while she escaped. I screamed at my wife to run, and she rolled over laughing....... which didn't really make sense, given the situation. I had taken a bear claw to the ear, and was taking other damage. Then the hummingbird flew off.
* If you think a hummingbird's hum doesn't sound like a pissed off bear when it's right in your ear, you are wrong.
* If you think a Hummingbird tongue can't be mistaken for a bear claw when it's probing your ear for nectar, you are also wrong.
* If you think your wife of 39 years will let you live it down, you are still wrong.
Post by: jasnt on June 21, 2021, 08:49:42 PM
Post by: Dan-o on June 21, 2021, 09:35:30 PM
Anyone not afraid of a cow moose is an idiot. I’ve delt with bulls and cows my whole life. Been stomped and blasted across the field many times, once almost crushed to death against at railroad tie by a big Charlotte bull. Cows don’t scare me but moose are a different story. I’d rather fight a bear. Chuckle all you want. You won’t be laughing when it happens to you.
20ish years ago in Utah, my dad's boss was wrecked by a moose. Broken ribs, collapsed lung, other damage.
I want to say 11 days in ICU.
They can wreck you if they want to.
(and in case I came off wrong in my last post, I wasn't mocking you. I really did think that Hummingbird was a bear for a few moments.)
Post by: ctwiggs1 on June 21, 2021, 09:52:10 PM
Anyone not afraid of a cow moose is an idiot. I’ve delt with bulls and cows my whole life. Been stomped and blasted across the field many times, once almost crushed to death against at railroad tie by a big Charlotte bull. Cows don’t scare me but moose are a different story. I’d rather fight a bear. Chuckle all you want. You won’t be laughing when it happens to you.
20ish years ago in Utah, my dad's boss was wrecked by a moose. Broken ribs, collapsed lung, other damage.
I want to say 11 days in ICU.
They can wreck you if they want to.
(and in case I came off wrong in my last post, I wasn't mocking you. I really did think that Hummingbird was a bear for a few moments.)
I feel like the hummingbird was actually a mosquito in your story. 8)
Post by: jasnt on June 21, 2021, 10:04:07 PM
no offense taken. Just letting folks know a moose is not just a big bluff to laugh at.Anyone not afraid of a cow moose is an idiot. I’ve delt with bulls and cows my whole life. Been stomped and blasted across the field many times, once almost crushed to death against at railroad tie by a big Charlotte bull. Cows don’t scare me but moose are a different story. I’d rather fight a bear. Chuckle all you want. You won’t be laughing when it happens to you.
20ish years ago in Utah, my dad's boss was wrecked by a moose. Broken ribs, collapsed lung, other damage.
I want to say 11 days in ICU.
They can wreck you if they want to.
(and in case I came off wrong in my last post, I wasn't mocking you. I really did think that Hummingbird was a bear for a few moments.)
Hummingbird are no laughing matter either. My brother took one to the helmet riding his motorcycle. It went through the face shield and came to rest at his ear. Thankfully it missed his eye
Post by: konradcountry on June 22, 2021, 09:04:26 AM
If you are going to set this up what distance would you want for this to be. Under 30 yards or under 100 yards.
For west side I assume I would be getting into it with a creeper and not a bear or cougar.
I would say that shooting at night one handed is pretty important to know how much your gun flashes. I had to draw once when I didn't have night sights and couldn't see a thing. So definitely night test everything.
Post by: Cougartail on June 22, 2021, 09:33:58 AM
Anyone not afraid of a cow moose is an idiot. I’ve delt with bulls and cows my whole life. Been stomped and blasted across the field many times, once almost crushed to death against at railroad tie by a big Charlotte bull. Cows don’t scare me but moose are a different story. I’d rather fight a bear. Chuckle all you want. You won’t be laughing when it happens to you.
:yeah: More people in Alaska are harmed by moose than bears by a large margin.
Post by: KFhunter on June 22, 2021, 09:40:17 AM
Good point, I put trijicon night sights on my G20 and a trl-1 hlIf you are going to set this up what distance would you want for this to be. Under 30 yards or under 100 yards.
For west side I assume I would be getting into it with a creeper and not a bear or cougar.
I would say that shooting at night one handed is pretty important to know how much your gun flashes. I had to draw once when I didn't have night sights and couldn't see a thing. So definitely night test everything.
That weapon light has been used on a mt lion that was sneaking in, caught its eyeshine on my headlamp, the weapon light lit its world up
I walked forward towards it shining the light on it and it spun and buggered out, running into stuff on the way out which gave me a good chuckle.
Post by: Stein on June 22, 2021, 11:02:28 AM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on June 22, 2021, 11:04:22 AM
Find a softball pitching machine, crank it up all the way and stand 20 yards directly in front of it and take some shots. That will probably get your nerves and shooting tuned up. It's probably about the size of the brain so if you can reliably hit that before you get hit you should be good to go.
Too consistent of an arc :chuckle:
Post by: konradcountry on June 22, 2021, 08:03:38 PM
If I had to face down grizzles with a 10mm I would be planning on dumping both magazines. Would probably have the second magazine in my left hand unless I had to draw and fire.
With a cougar I figure most of the time you would either scare it off with a single bullet or it is on your neck.
I saw one at NWTrek jump about 12 or 15 ft straight up into a tree. I honestly wish I didn't see that.
Post by: Born2late on June 23, 2021, 10:09:57 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 24, 2021, 05:56:37 PM
some good input for sure
I really tried to pick apart that video, fully expected it to pitch spray as the "be all end all" and I'm very pleasantly suprised!
Even the FWP officer was very level headed and real, and he knew his stuff for sure.
The firearms expert was also good, the class was extremely basic, but I couldn't fault it for what it was.
He had his pack on and shot "woods ready", he was glacially and agonizingly slow on the draw and fire, but he's not an expert by any means.... but not a total novice either, he's probably a pretty good example of joe six pack hunter.
He had no muscle memory built up and that was the foundation the firearms expert was trying to build upon.
As for carrying both, I would really only do that if hunting or fishing with partners.
"The wind stopped and I yelled Hey Bear! and I was inside the bears personal bubble, he charged"
Had that wind not stopped....